Interesting thoughts on the new movies

[NecronLord]

That wouldn't have been a bad movie, but it would have been a safer, more conventional one, and I'm not at all sure that that is inherently better.

Fundamentally there's no disputing taste, but I think I enjoyed the example movie a lot more.

And the last point, at least, I strongly dispute- the idea that TLJ was pushing the idea that one shouldn't resist fascism because fascism is futile. The film addresses those ideas, the sense of apathy and despair and "both sides" cynicism in much of modern society, and rightly so, because those issues are a very real part of the world we live in. But addressing something, acknowledging it, is not the same as endorsing it. The entire point of the film's conclusion, with Luke coming out of retirement, however briefly, is that resistance is not pointless. Hell, that's the entire point of the "pointless" character of Rose, and the "pointless" Canto Bight arc. Same with Finn's "rebel scum" line- he starts the film as someone who doesn't care about the cause, and over the course of the film, through his interactions with Rose (who very much does care about the cause), he comes to be a believer himself. But of course that doesn't stop all the fanboys from fapping over how "pointless" Rose and the Canto Bight scenes were. Likewise, when it comes to the topic of resistance and its futility, or lack thereof, the ultimate reveal is ignored, and the initial misdirect is treated as the final fact, just as with Holdo and Poe's conflict.

No, its not that there was no point to the Canto Bight scenes, or that Holdo was a coward and a traitor and Poe was right, or that the New Republic is useless, or that the message of the film is that there's no point fighting fascism and you shouldn't try. Those are arguments the film sets up in order to knock them down. But the bashers refuse to acknowledge that. Some of this may be honest misunderstanding, but given that these points have been made again and again, I am convinced that a lot of it is simply arguing in bad faith.

It is easy to bash TLJ and Johnson when you are arguing a film that is literally the opposite, point for point, of the one that was actually made.

Edit: And yes, I'm aware those aren't all arguments you've made here, obviously. My point is to illustrate a pattern, which is that most of the criticisms of TLJ (the ones that aren't openly based on bigotry or knee-jerk hostility toward anything new) are reliant at least in part on ignoring the film's ultimate reveals and subversions, and treating the set-up (which is often a misdirect) as the final fact.

While the characters don't give in to DJ's Pessimism, he gets away with a lot more than them and while that is realistic this is a space opera movie, and the zietgiest rewards karmic; DJ got away with everything, and the heroes were reduced to a single ship. While it is tempting to compare it to Empire Strikes Back because the rebels ostensibly lose in Empire, it is worth remembering that Empire gives us some meaningful healing at the end.


Our heroes have met up with the Rebel fleet, including our first look at a Rebel warship, the biggest vessel we'd seen to this point. Luke has a new hand that is notably a near perfect prosthetic. Lando and Chewbacca have a plan to get Han back, and the film exits on the good guys in many ways stronger than ever.


TLJ ends with a child labourer watching the last (!!) resistance ship which is a light freighter escape from the massacre. It uses the same movie, and there are some beats of more hopeful nature like the Jedi books in preceding scenes.

But the movement is dead at the end of TLJ. At the end of TLJ the Resistance has less combatants available than Daisy Ridley's great-granduncle's lot in Dad's Army.


Captain Mainwaring there had thirty fully armed men behind him. Sure they're old and doddering but with equal weapons I'd give them good odds vs the Resistance minus force powers at the end of TLJ.

And this is a comedy.

The Resistance is an utter joke at the end of TLJ. The Rebellion was never shown to be that weak.




The idea that literally no one would oppose the First Order is so deeply contrary to how the Rebellion was always presented. There were always experts in the Rebellion, technical staff, cooks, generals, ground forces, fighter pilots. It was a movement with ships and bases and which people longed to join, not a ship of a dozen firebrands that no one will help. In Force Awakens the Resistance is a shadow of that, and it gets worse in TLJ.

When we're introduced to Luke his dream is to join the Rebellion against the Empire and we're told others have already done that in his circle. In TLJ we are told that no one in the galaxy who can hear the Resistance's pleas wants to join.

Don't Join is not just the character's nom de guerre and motto, it may as well be the film's Epigraph.

As for the rest, you know me better than that. I think Amilyn Holdo is so cool I defend her record on this forum and even (though you don't know this) have an RPG character named after her. I think the worst thing about the casino theme is the costuming, and that Rose Tico was mishandled abominably in TLJ compared to her character introduction and as for RoS Spoiler

it's a fucking atrocity that they gave Kelly Marie Tran so little screen time, and a shameless cave to the fanboys at the cost of damage to her income and career.

The Resistance is pathetic. That is what really grinds my gears. If the Resistance was as strong as the Rebellion or even better it was a Republic stronger than the first order (God forbid they have to write the bad guys on the back foot) due to the efforts of the original Alliance to Restore the Republic, that alone would raise all of these movies at least 20% in my estimation and TLJ a good 30% regardless of their other value

Don't give me this thing about the film proving DJ wrong. The Resistance at the end of TLJ would have trouble putting together a soccer team let alone a guerrilla war. DJ gets away with all the money and is a totally dispicable piece of shit who is proven absolutely right when... no one joins the rebels.

I want to see Star Wars not the daring escape of the most wanted bus in the galaxy.

I'd pay good money to see RoS again Spoiler

if it had DJ on the planet with his gold that gets blasted by the Emperor's Star Destroyer. So long as he had enough time to recognize his impending firey doom.

I would even buy the playset, if you're listening Disney.

[The Romulan Republic]

That wouldn't have been a bad movie, but it would have been a safer, more conventional one, and I'm not at all sure that that is inherently better.

And the last point, at least, I strongly dispute- the idea that TLJ was pushing the idea that one shouldn't resist fascism because fascism is futile. The film addresses those ideas, the sense of apathy and despair and "both sides" cynicism in much of modern society, and rightly so, because those issues are a very real part of the world we live in. But addressing something, acknowledging it, is not the same as endorsing it. The entire point of the film's conclusion, with Luke coming out of retirement, however briefly, is that resistance is not pointless. Hell, that's the entire point of the "pointless" character of Rose, and the "pointless" Canto Bight arc. Same with Finn's "rebel scum" line- he starts the film as someone who doesn't care about the cause, and over the course of the film, through his interactions with Rose (who very much does care about the cause), he comes to be a believer himself. But of course that doesn't stop all the fanboys from fapping over how "pointless" Rose and the Canto Bight scenes were. Likewise, when it comes to the topic of resistance and its futility, or lack thereof, the ultimate reveal is ignored, and the initial misdirect is treated as the final fact, just as with Holdo and Poe's conflict.

No, its not that there was no point to the Canto Bight scenes, or that Holdo was a coward and a traitor and Poe was right, or that the New Republic is useless, or that the message of the film is that there's no point fighting fascism and you shouldn't try. Those are arguments the film sets up in order to knock them down. But the bashers refuse to acknowledge that. Some of this may be honest misunderstanding, but given that these points have been made again and again, I am convinced that a lot of it is simply arguing in bad faith.

It is easy to bash TLJ and Johnson when you are arguing a film that is literally the opposite, point for point, of the one that was actually made.

Edit: And yes, I'm aware those aren't all arguments you've made here, obviously. My point is to illustrate a pattern, which is that most of the criticisms of TLJ (the ones that aren't openly based on bigotry or knee-jerk hostility toward anything new) are reliant at least in part on ignoring the film's ultimate reveals and subversions, and treating the set-up (which is often a misdirect) as the final fact.

You can argue that that is the movie he tried to do, but in the end failed for a large chunk of the viewers. That's on him, not the viewers since he is making the damn film. He tried to do those lofty things you read into it, but it flopped like a wet noodle. You can pretend those who do not like it just don't understand it, or have other goals in mind, but we understand it just fine and think he failed at what he tried to do.

That's trending towards an appeal to popularity fallacy- the film is bad because "the fans" say its bad. Personally, I do not subscribe to the view that "the customer is always right".

Mind you, that's not even really true- many, many people liked The Last Jedi. Many, many people got it just fine. Some people didn't like it, and that's fine too- what bothers me is when people treat "this isn't the film I personally wanted to see" as "this is an objectively bad film".

You could argue that Johnson overused misdirection and subversion, and thereby left himself and his work open to misinterpretations and misrepresentations. I'd even agree with that criticism, to a point. But there are also a lot of people who willfully refuse to get it, or who treat "this isn't the movie I wanted/expected" as "this is an objectively bad film", and that's not on him. Remember also that the post I was responding to accused the film of having a message that you shouldn't resist fascism- not of having a message that you should resist fascism and conveying it badly.

And not one person in this tread is on a rant against Ms. Tran/Rose, so can we please drop the sermons in each post?

Since the comment was explicitly not directed at you or at anyone in this thread, but as an example of the response to the film in popular culture (where it is absolutely relevant), you have no reason to take offense, unless you share the attitudes of the bigots and trolls to which I refer. And that goes for everyone else who takes any mention of bigotry or harassment by me, however general, brief, or tangential, as a personal affront.

If its simply that you don't want to hear about it- I don't care. Sorry, but I don't. It is a part of how the film was received, it is part of the context in which the subsequent discussions of the film and changes in the direction of the franchise took place, and it reflects a much larger problem in our society, and it is absolutely relevant to any discussion of the response to the film by the media and the public.

[Knife]

That's trending towards an appeal to popularity fallacy- the film is bad because "the fans" say its bad. Personally, I do not subscribe to the view that "the customer is always right".

It's art, therefore subjective, so yes it's about popularity when you come down to it. It's a movie, so it's financial success also comes down to popularity. If the movie was using the fan base to make sure it's success and the fans don't like it, does it matter if a smaller group of 'non fans' who went in to watch it liked it as far as if the movie is a success? To treat 'the customer' as a monolithic block is asinine, same with 'fan'. You're a fan and I'm a fan but we have different views of what we like in SW. Both views are subjective so there isn't a 'right' view, but since the Mouse only makes these movies to make money, if more people like me who see the last couple as bad movies and won't spend money on them, do you really think Disney will keep cranking them out? If more people are like you, then yeah, they will.

But to get sanctimonious about those 'fans' as if it's my fault they made a movie I don't like is asinine.

Mind you, that's not even really true- many, many people liked The Last Jedi. Many, many people got it just fine. Some people didn't like it, and that's fine too- what bothers me is when people treat "this isn't the film I personally wanted to see" as "this is an objectively bad film".

It did have objective problems, on top of other subjective issues. It's pacing was horrible. It's plot was thin and full of holes. In Johnston's great quest to do something new and edgy, he lost track of what he was doing and in the end, had a story where the characters managed to contribute nothing to the story line. Every single thing the characters did, failed. Everything they did, changed nothing. Everytime someone was about to change something, they were stopped, or failed, or it didn't work. The characters could have been in a better position by literally doing anything else... They figuratively walked around in a circle for 2 hours and got nowhere. There were objectively things wrong in that movie.

There are objectively wrong things with ROS, just not as bad as TLJ. The whole story is laced together with acts of plot, to get characters from one big scene to another. It's full of Mcguffin's to get them from one big scene to another with little reason why or how. But it also looks damned pretty doing it.

You could argue that Johnson overused misdirection and subversion, and thereby left himself and his work open to misinterpretations and misrepresentations. I'd even agree with that criticism, to a point. But there are also a lot of people who willfully refuse to get it, or who treat "this isn't the movie I wanted/expected" as "this is an objectively bad film", and that's not on him. Remember also that the post I was responding to accused the film of having a message that you shouldn't resist fascism- not of having a message that you should resist fascism and conveying it badly.

You can actually have both, and that it is both in one movie is a bit sad really. I get what Johnston tired to do, but he failed at it so bad it made it unwatchable for me and apparently many others. That's on him, not me. I get to have my flavors and opinions on things I like especially when they are wanting me to pay money to see it and marketing to me, as a fan, to see it to make a shit ton of money. It's not like TLJ was some art house movie man, they were banking on SW nerds to toss their $20 on opening night to makes some cash, followed up by 'normal' movie goers, and then SW nerds again for DVD/Blu Ray sales, merch etc...

So, just as a restaurant that I've enjoyed for years, if they serve me a over cooked steak with no seasoning, I'm sending it back. Don't sit at your table muttering how you like Well Done Steak and low sodium, scared that my brazen use of sending food back that you'd eat will endanger the restaurant to the point it will close and you won't get to eat there anymore.

Since the comment was explicitly not directed at you or at anyone in this thread, but as an example of the response to the film in popular culture (where it is absolutely relevant), you have no reason to take offense, unless you share the attitudes of the bigots and trolls to which I refer. And that goes for everyone else who takes any mention of bigotry or harassment by me, however general, brief, or tangential, as a personal affront.

If its simply that you don't want to hear about it- I don't care. Sorry, but I don't. It is a part of how the film was received, it is part of the context in which the subsequent discussions of the film and changes in the direction of the franchise took place, and it reflects a much larger problem in our society, and it is absolutely relevant to any discussion of the response to the film by the media and the public.

Because you put it in everything. And nobody here is attacking her, mentioning it, and yet you still have it in like 50% of all your posts. It's old, so old. I think you really need to talk to someone about it, not me though, I don't have those types of degrees.

[NecronLord]

And because I'm having trouble sleeping, I have an additional follow up post explaining why I loathe the sequels for TRR. Come for one rant get two.

My first encounter with Star Wars as a young boy was when VHS machines were still new and pricey, at least too pricey for us, while I could remember bits of Star Wars, I remembered there was an ice planet, for instance, from the occasional Christmas re-run on TV, I didn’t have access to the movies for a very long time. My first encounter was actually with the Star Wars novel by Alan Dean Foster/Lucas.

That has a prologue that is still to this day magic to me.

Another galaxy, another time.
The Old Republic was the Republic of legend, greater than distance or time. No need to note where it was or whence it came, only to know that ... it was the Republic.

Once, under the wise rule of the Senate and the protection of the Jedi Knights, the Republic throve and grew. But as often happens when wealth and power pass beyond the admirable and attain the awesome, then appear those evil ones who have greed to match.

So it was with the Republic at its height. Like the greatest of trees, able to withstand any external attack, the Republic rotted from within though the danger was not visible from outside.

Aided and abetted by restless, power-hungry individuals within the government, and the massive organs of commerce, the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic. He promised to reunite the disaffected among the people and to restore the remembered glory of the Republic.

Once secure in office he declared himself Emperor, shutting himself away from the populace. Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he had appointed to high office, and the cries of the people for justice did not reach his ears.

Having exterminated through treachery and deception the Jedi Knights, guardians of justice in the galaxy, the Imperial governors and bureaucrats prepared to institute a reign of terror among the disheartened worlds of the galaxy. Many used the Imperial forces and the name of the increasingly isolated Emperor to further their own personal ambitions.

But a small number of systems rebelled at these new outrages. Declaring themselves opposed to the New Order they began the great battle to restore the Old Republic.

From the beginning they were vastly outnumbered by the systems held in thrall by the Emperor. In those first dark days it seemed certain the bright flame of resistance would be extinguished before it could cast the light of new truth across a galaxy of oppressed and beaten peoples...

My first experience of the setting, and still one of the most magical introductions to anything.

When I got my first PC, later, you better believe the first thing I got was a Star Wars game so I could shoot Imperial dogs. Down the years I’ve spent an inordinate amount of time with the EU’s various content, and surprise surprise, you know what finally made me jetisson the post-Endor EU as crap?

This reprehensible nonsense. The Republic discarded to make a weak pun.

I don’t want the GFFA or the godawful Fel Empire or some bullshit like that. Any film in which the Republic gets smashed in five seconds to re-set the clock to Episode IV is shit.

A film in which it’s reduced to seventeen people in the most wanted bus in the galaxy is a double shit movie.

While there’s no disputing taste, I don’t need more than that to say it, and your attributing all kinds of culture-wars psychosocial motives to not liking the movies where the Republic jobs harder than a professional boxer being paid to take a dive is simply untrue at least of me and I hope many others.

Obi-Wan says it best.

[The Romulan Republic]

Because you put it in everything. And nobody here is attacking her, mentioning it, and yet you still have it in like 50% of all your posts. It's old, so old. I think you really need to talk to someone about it, not me though, I don't have those types of degrees.

Yes, what an immense burden for you to have to hear about racist and misogynist harassment. Truly, you are the real victim here.

And before you say "Well no one here is saying those things"- so what? We talk about all manner of things on this board that are going on in the world, not just the ones board members happen to be personally involved in. Its a relevant issue, and its relevant to how The Last Jedi and the controversies around it are perceived. It wasn't even the main focus of my argument or this thread, until you made it so. But it is relevant to the larger context of how the film was received.

As to your insinuation that I am mentally ill and require professional psychiatric help because I believe that racism and sexism are issues worth discussing in relation to TLJ, its absolutely despicable. That's all I'll say now, because its Christmas and it feels wrong to flame someone on Christmas.

And because I'm having trouble sleeping, I have an additional follow up post explaining why I loathe the sequels for TRR. Come for one rant get two.

My first encounter with Star Wars as a young boy was when VHS machines were still new and pricey, at least too pricey for us, while I could remember bits of Star Wars, I remembered there was an ice planet, for instance, from the occasional Christmas re-run on TV, I didn’t have access to the movies for a very long time. My first encounter was actually with the Star Wars novel by Alan Dean Foster/Lucas.

That has a prologue that is still to this day magic to me.

Another galaxy, another time.
The Old Republic was the Republic of legend, greater than distance or time. No need to note where it was or whence it came, only to know that ... it was the Republic.

Once, under the wise rule of the Senate and the protection of the Jedi Knights, the Republic throve and grew. But as often happens when wealth and power pass beyond the admirable and attain the awesome, then appear those evil ones who have greed to match.

So it was with the Republic at its height. Like the greatest of trees, able to withstand any external attack, the Republic rotted from within though the danger was not visible from outside.

Aided and abetted by restless, power-hungry individuals within the government, and the massive organs of commerce, the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic. He promised to reunite the disaffected among the people and to restore the remembered glory of the Republic.

Once secure in office he declared himself Emperor, shutting himself away from the populace. Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he had appointed to high office, and the cries of the people for justice did not reach his ears.

Having exterminated through treachery and deception the Jedi Knights, guardians of justice in the galaxy, the Imperial governors and bureaucrats prepared to institute a reign of terror among the disheartened worlds of the galaxy. Many used the Imperial forces and the name of the increasingly isolated Emperor to further their own personal ambitions.

But a small number of systems rebelled at these new outrages. Declaring themselves opposed to the New Order they began the great battle to restore the Old Republic.

From the beginning they were vastly outnumbered by the systems held in thrall by the Emperor. In those first dark days it seemed certain the bright flame of resistance would be extinguished before it could cast the light of new truth across a galaxy of oppressed and beaten peoples...

My first experience of the setting, and still one of the most magical introductions to anything.

When I got my first PC, later, you better believe the first thing I got was a Star Wars game so I could shoot Imperial dogs. Down the years I’ve spent an inordinate amount of time with the EU’s various content, and surprise surprise, you know what finally made me jetisson the post-Endor EU as crap?

This reprehensible nonsense. The Republic discarded to make a weak pun.

I don’t want the GFFA or the godawful Fel Empire or some bullshit like that. Any film in which the Republic gets smashed in five seconds to re-set the clock to Episode IV is shit.

A film in which it’s reduced to seventeen people in the most wanted bus in the galaxy is a double shit movie.

While there’s no disputing taste, I don’t need more than that to say it, and your attributing all kinds of culture-wars psychosocial motives to not liking the movies where the Republic jobs harder than a professional boxer being paid to take a dive is simply untrue at least of me and I hope many others.

Obi-Wan says it best.

I'll actually agree that the reset to the OT status quo with a new coat of paint was a mistake (likely made in large part to please whinging OT purists). However, it is TFA's mistake first and foremost- Johnson was simply dealing with the hand that he was dealt.

[LadyTevar]

I am not in the mood for bullshit tonight. Cut out the accusations of racism and misogyny or I will close this thread faster than you can refresh.

[The Romulan Republic]

I am not in the mood for bullshit tonight. Cut out the accusations of racism and misogyny or I will close this thread faster than you can refresh.

I did not accuse anyone in this thread or on this board of racism or misogyny. In fact, I explicitly said in my first post that my comments reg. the attacks on Rose were meant as examples of a pattern in terms of how TLJ is criticized, not views that I attributed to a specific poster.

Or is this meant to be a warning against any mention, even in general terms, of racism and sexism in the Star Wars fandom? If the board wishes to adopt such a policy, that is the perogative of the admins, but in that eventuality I will ask to have my account on this board terminated.

[NecronLord]

You consistently raise that topic *any* time anyone does anything but uncritically praise the sequels.

As said, yes I think 7 is shit because it mishandles the Republic. You just zeroed in on criticism of 8 for your own reasons. I think *all three* sequel films are varying levels of bad.

[Darth Yan]

Romulan. It’s entirely possible to dislike Last Jedi and the other sequels for reasons that have nothing to do with sexism or racism. Yes a lot of people making those accusations are assholes, but to say there’s no reason at all to be angry is just cretinous

[LadyTevar]

Or is this meant to be a warning against any mention, even in general terms, of racism and sexism in the Star Wars fandom? If the board wishes to adopt such a policy, that is the perogative of the admins, but in that eventuality I will ask to have my account on this board terminated.

It means the discussion is going in circles, nothing new is being said, and perhaps it would be better if this topic was locked.

However, if you still want your account terminated, all you need to do is PM me, and I'll be very happy to oblige.

[Gandalf]

To return to the bit on the previous page, how much of thr justification for the brain chips comes from content in the television show?

[Darth Yan]

In real life there would be a lot of clones who would refuse the order. Things like forming bonds with their Jedi is a thing.

[Ralin]

In real life there would be a lot of clones who would refuse the order. Things like forming bonds with their Jedi is a thing.

Unless certain specific orders were drilled into them to the point where they'd be reflexively obeyed. Which seems like something that could have been included in whatever flash learning process they use to make the clones capable of functioning as soldiers in under a year or so or whatever the actual period of time they settled on was.

I didn't watch the CGI Clone Wars show and I'm not familiar with the emotion chips thing, but I always figured something like that had to be going on. Not just to explain why all or almost all of the clones went along with Order 66. Not having any sort of anger or emotional conflict about suddenly being ordered to kill the nearest Jedi would help explain why their prescience didn't pick up on the attacks before it was too late.

[FaxModem1]

To return to the bit on the previous page, how much of thr justification for the brain chips comes from content in the television show?

The show definitely made the clones more personalized and individual. But the relationship between Obi Wan and the clones in ROTS is definitely not, "User with remote control and mindless obedient soldiers". After all, Obi Wan wasn't really making jokes to his lightsaber or speeders in the prequel trilogy, but was having conversations with Cody about what they're going to be doing, with the clones laughing as well. It's an energy of them actually being fellow soldiers.

[Knife]

In real life there would be a lot of clones who would refuse the order. Things like forming bonds with their Jedi is a thing.

Unless certain specific orders were drilled into them to the point where they'd be reflexively obeyed. Which seems like something that could have been included in whatever flash learning process they use to make the clones capable of functioning as soldiers in under a year or so or whatever the actual period of time they settled on was.

I didn't watch the CGI Clone Wars show and I'm not familiar with the emotion chips thing, but I always figured something like that had to be going on. Not just to explain why all or almost all of the clones went along with Order 66. Not having any sort of anger or emotional conflict about suddenly being ordered to kill the nearest Jedi would help explain why their prescience didn't pick up on the attacks before it was too late.

The biochips were the fix put in the CW cartoon for anyone who sat and thought about the situation for more than 5 seconds. Yes, the original intent I'm sure was mindless clones who follow orders and were told by the Supreme Chancellor to do it, would gun down Jedi. But then you watch 5 seasons of a show where Jedi and Clones fought a galactic war with trials and tribulations, wins/loses, bonding, clones getting individuality, sadness over lost brothers, some even questioning their purpose and reason for being and the ethics involved. You know, human stuff.

The bio chips were the in case of emergency break glass plot device. Just drank a beer with that Jedi you served with for 4 years and he saved you 88 times and you saved him 36. His Padawan pulled you out of a burning Gunship, you saw the Jedi kissing a Senator but decided you'll keep it on the down low since it's not any of your business. Friend shit. But nope, 5 years ago I got me some good training and my boss says shoot him so.... pew pew pew. It makes no damn sense so you have a back up chip to make sure it happens even if it's against your will. In an episode, the chip malfunctions and a clone goes all Jedi-homicidal during the war making a very select few aware of them.

[Galvatron]

I never had an objection to the chips, but before their introduction to the lore I'd always assumed that the clones were basically an army of rigorously conditioned "Manchurian candidates."

[Ralin]

Yeah, I saw it less as them being mindless and more akin to a post-hypnotic compulsion buried in their minds. Not something we can do, sure. But we can't create armies of Mandalorian super-soldiers clones either.

[Knife]

I never had an objection to the chips, but before their introduction to the lore I'd always assumed that the clones were basically an army of rigorously conditioned "Manchurian candidates."

Like I said, I'm sure that was the original intent but when you sit and think about it for a bit it unwinds. What has to happen during combat, the trauma, the coping mechanisms to deal with that, the camaraderie and bonding with people who go through it with you for 3-4 years which for the clones is like 6-8 years. A significant chunk of their lifespan was with each other and then lead by Jedi in a war. I have a hard time believing any hypno whatever training 5 years ago could/would override all the clones. It makes them meat robots where as even in the movies they start getting individual personalities like Cody. The Clone War's cartoon goes even way further with this... so yeah, it was necessary to a point.

[Gandalf]

Like I said, I'm sure that was the original intent but when you sit and think about it for a bit it unwinds. What has to happen during combat, the trauma, the coping mechanisms to deal with that, the camaraderie and bonding with people who go through it with you for 3-4 years which for the clones is like 6-8 years. A significant chunk of their lifespan was with each other and then lead by Jedi in a war. I have a hard time believing any hypno whatever training 5 years ago could/would override all the clones. It makes them meat robots where as even in the movies they start getting individual personalities like Cody. The Clone War's cartoon goes even way further with this... so yeah, it was necessary to a point.

Knowing that the Clone Army would have its Night of the Long Knives moment, why did they even begin to have the clones become (apparent) colleagues with the Jedi? There's a lot of ways that they could have taken that story that didn't require the biochips bailout. I can't think of a reasons aside from keeping the Space SS marketable to children.

[Gandalf]

I never had an objection to the chips, but before their introduction to the lore I'd always assumed that the clones were basically an army of rigorously conditioned "Manchurian candidates."

Pretty much. I find it strange that people have trouble with the idea that an army of designer slave soldiers built to be led by space wizards would be psychologically different from modern soldiers. They could have their priorities in all sorts of wacky directions.

[Knife]

Like I said, I'm sure that was the original intent but when you sit and think about it for a bit it unwinds. What has to happen during combat, the trauma, the coping mechanisms to deal with that, the camaraderie and bonding with people who go through it with you for 3-4 years which for the clones is like 6-8 years. A significant chunk of their lifespan was with each other and then lead by Jedi in a war. I have a hard time believing any hypno whatever training 5 years ago could/would override all the clones. It makes them meat robots where as even in the movies they start getting individual personalities like Cody. The Clone War's cartoon goes even way further with this... so yeah, it was necessary to a point.

Knowing that the Clone Army would have its Night of the Long Knives moment, why did they even begin to have the clones become (apparent) colleagues with the Jedi? There's a lot of ways that they could have taken that story that didn't require the biochips bailout. I can't think of a reasons aside from keeping the Space SS marketable to children.

Considering the shady beginnings of the GAR, it's wonder at all the Republic used them but OK.

If Palpatines plan was to weaken/kill the Jedi during the war and over all just put himself in a win/win situation, then I don't see how you avoid it. To kill off Jedi,you have to get them in the war. To blind Jedi to what's going on around them, if war and violence obscures their vision in the Force, then you have to get them in the war.

I'm a bit surprised the PT didn't have a regular Army of Republic peeps (could still have Clone type armor or rather the clones could just be shown wearing what is then just Republic Army armor) with Clones being shock troopers tasked with Jedi forces for special missions and the 'important' missions Jedi would be tasked with doing. It would keep them close to Jedi that Palpatine would need for Order 66, still kill off Jedi in combat, still have Jedi in the war to obscure what Palpatine was doing while fixing some of the brain bugs. Though biochip/manchurian cadidate stuff not being one of them.

[Gandalf]

Admittedly, I was thinking of thr question from an RL point of view, but this is fun too.

Considering the shady beginnings of the GAR, it's wonder at all the Republic used them but OK.

Perhaps fear of the impending war encouraged a "shut up and unite behind the Chancellor" moment?

[FaxModem1]

I never had an objection to the chips, but before their introduction to the lore I'd always assumed that the clones were basically an army of rigorously conditioned "Manchurian candidates."

Pretty much. I find it strange that people have trouble with the idea that an army of designer slave soldiers built to be led by space wizards would be psychologically different from modern soldiers. They could have their priorities in all sorts of wacky directions.

Mostly because Jengo Fett, and all his clones, look, act, and react like human beings, because they're supposed to be human beings. And so we assume they'll both act like such, and like modern day soldiers. They even mention in the commentary that after fans who were in the military lambasted the clones performance in AOTC, they had a marine do the motion capture for the clones in ROTS, making them come off as professional soldiers, not goosestepping automatons who are bred to die. I think those who have never served don't understand why, clone or not, a plot mechanism had to be in place for the Clones, who served with the space wizards for years, would require that to be believable, even if they're fighting alongside space wizards against goofy looking robots on pure CGI planets.

Their origins are science fiction, but they are firmly rooted in how a military would actually act. So because of that, there needs to be something believable for why they're A-okay with shooting their drinking buddy in the back.

[Gunhead]

Perhaps fear of the impending war encouraged a "shut up and unite behind the Chancellor" moment?

That was the point. Disregarding the stupidity of the Republic lacking a standing army, or to be a bit more kind, whatever armies the individual members of the Republic had, lacked cohesive command structure and more than likely the numbers to effectively take on the TF. Any concerted effort by the member planets / systems etc. would also be hampered by disunity and mistrust between them. They really didn't have much choice.

I think people way overplay just how much jedi making "friends" out of the clones matters. In simplest terms it's a question of numbers. Say you got 3000000 clones total, there probably was more but for the purposes of illustrating a point this number will do. Now mixed in is say... 10000 Jedi on various levels of command. Let's assume each Jedi befriends 50 clones to the point they'd refuse to obey order 66.. Would mean 5 out of 6 would still shoot them in the back. Now if there's premeditation involved, there are enough clones to go around to guarantee at any given time the Jedi is surrounded by clones who would obey the order.

-Gunhead

[Zanfib]

Above all else, Palpatine needed the clones to seem trustworthy. If they had acted like a bunch of creepy meat robots, the Jedi would have been too suspicious of them for Order 66 to work.