The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

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The Romulan Republic
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by The Romulan Republic »

madd0ct0r wrote: 2020-03-16 07:40am
ray245 wrote: 2020-03-16 07:23am
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2020-03-16 05:28am But by then the new threat was so obvious that enough people got it, enough people understood that a national mobilization was necessary, enough people understood that things could not go on that way indefinitely. Could it happen here, too?

We want to hear what you think about this article. Submit a letter to the editor or write to letters@theatlantic.com.
Democracy will start breaking down when the people think they are better than the experts. Once democracy devolve into a self-validation exercise, its utilitarian function will become limited.
pedantically, han't democrary always ran on the asusmption that the wisdom of the masses outweighs a few experts? It's kinda the point.
[/quote]

I would argue that the primary utilitarian value of democracy is to provide a mechanism for the transfer of power that doesn't involve burning buildings and bodies in the streets, but that's rather off-topic here.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by MKSheppard »

NJ just ordered all restaurants, bars, movie theatres, casinos, and gyms closed.

Also, statewide curfew for everyone starting at 8PM running until 5AM.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by MKSheppard »

Maryland

Social Distancing

An executive order has been made to shut down all bars, restaurants, gyms and movie theaters, effectively starting at 5 p.m. Monday. Drive through and carry out services will be allowed to continue.
Following CDC guidelines, settings of 50 of more individuals will be prohibited across the state, including social and recreational events and religious and sports gatherings.
Health Surge

Closed health facilities are being asked to reopen and state will increase the capacity of beds by 6,000.
Practitioners with out-of-state licenses will be allowed to practice in Maryland
Personnel Capacity: Activating the Maryland Medical Reserve Corps--a force of 5,000 dedicated and trained medical volunteers. 700 have already been activated.
Relief to Residents and Families

Essential services such as grocery stores, banks and gas stations will be allowed to remain open.
The executive order prohibits utilities, such as electric, gas, water, sewage, cable, internet and phone lines, to be cut off nor incur late fees.
Evictions have been prohibited.
Maryland State Superintendent of Schools Karen Salmon has applied for a Federal waiver to provide three meals a day plus a snack to those who need it. Statewide, 138 centers already up and operating. Visit MDSummerMeals.com to find all participating locations.
Activation of Additional Personnel

250 State Troopers of the Mobile Field Force have been made ready for deployment.
1,000 Maryland National Guard members and airmen have been fully activated, while 1200 are on enhanced readiness.
Hogan reiterated that all emergency orders incur the full force of the law.

"It is impossible to know how long this threat will continue. I do know we cannot afford to wait," Hogan said.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by The Romulan Republic »

What roles are they using the National Guard for?
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by chimericoncogene »

My corner of East Asia is locking down on travel from Europe, and because all the kids went overseas for cheap holidays while the schools were closed, and we've got a lot of well-off students studying in the UK, we're getting a whole wave of infections from overseas as people flock back before they declare mandatory quarantines for all returnees.

Just when we thought we had COVID-19 contained, too. Well, up for round two, I guess.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Prime Minister Trudeau speaking shortly (from the porch of his house, apparently, since he's in quarantine).
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Trudeau's speech:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=erCCzcd9eYA

Edit: You know, as much as I might criticize him on various points, at times of real crisis, when I compare the leaders of my two countries, I feel profoundly grateful for Justin Trudeau.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by TimothyC »

Gov. DeWine is looking to try and get the Ohio Primary pushed back to June, but he doesn't have the authority to do so directly (that power is vested with the legislature, which is not currently in session). Instead, There is going to be a lawsuit in Franklin county (Columbus) to do so. The Ohio Secretary of State (who runs the elections) has directed the Ohio AG to not contest this, but it's up to the judge. If allowed by the judge, the primary will be held June 2nd. If not, it will go ahead, as scheduled, tomorrow.

Edit: This is because lots of the poll workers are older people, and thus the population at a higher risk. There are no state-level positions on the ballot in this primary. State Reps are, as are half of the State Senators.

Edit: They are also looking at a pure vote-by-mail option that could go out before June.

Both main state Party apparatuses has agreed this delay is the right thing.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Agent Fisher »

California Bay Areas counties mandating a 'Shelter In Place' order, for six counties. Approximately seven million people.


KCRA
LOS ANGELES —
Officials in six San Francisco Bay Area counties issued a sweeping shelter-in-place mandate Monday affecting nearly 7 million people, ordering residents to avoid any unnecessary travel by any method and only leave their homes for food, medicine and exercise.

The order says residents must stay inside and venture out only for necessities for three weeks starting Tuesday in a desperate attempt by officials to curb the spread of the novel coronavirus.


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“I know today’s order is a radical step. It has to be. We need to act now, all of us, to protect the public health," said Dr. Grant Colfax, director of the San Francisco Department of Public Health.

It affects the counties of San Francisco, Marin, Santa Clara, San Mateo, Alameda and Contra Costa, as well as the city of Berkeley.

“We must move aggressively and immediately," said San Jose Mayor Sam Liccardo, whose city is the epicenter of Bay Area outbreak. “History will not forgive us for waiting an hour more."

| MORE | Click here for complete coronavirus coverage

San Francisco Mayor London Breed criticized what she called a “terrible response" by federal officials.

“We can't sit back and wait for the federal government to do anything. Unfortunately, they have not been as proactive as they should in recognizing this is a crisis throughout the world," she said.

The order tells people to work from home unless they provide essential services such as public safety, sanitation and medical services. Pharmacies and banks will remain open. Restaurants will be open only for take-out, Breed said.

Kevin Jones, general manager of Buena Vista Cafe, an iconic San Francisco restaurant that has been a draw for tourists since 1952 in the popular Fisherman’s Wharf, said the order is “going to hurt, but our duty is to protect our employees and our customers.”

The cafe was the only one open Monday in one of the busiest tourist areas of the city and almost full. He said he's worried about the 58 employees being able to pay their rent; owners and managers decided that any perishable foods would go to the workers.

The dramatic step came as officials across California took increasingly strident steps to separate people and contain the spread of coronavirus, prompting millions of the state's oldest and youngest residents to stay home Monday.

Freeways normally jammed with rush hour drivers flowed freely. Long lines persisted at some grocery stores despite despite officials saying there's no need to hoard supplies.

Responding to panic buying, executives of major grocery chains said at Los Angeles press conference that supply chains are in good shape and clerks are working to restock shelves and clean.

“There is plenty of product,” said Bryan Kaltenbach, president of Kroger’s Food 4 Less.

Gov. Gavin Newsom on Sunday urged the state's 5.3 million people who are 65 and older and those with chronic health conditions to isolate at home. He also called for all bars, wineries, nightclubs and brewpubs to close.

Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti ordered restaurants to only offer pickup, delivery and drive-through service. He also closed gyms, movie theaters, bowling alleys and arcades.

Newsom said an estimated 85% of California's 6 million public school students will be out of their classrooms this week. Many districts are arranging for meal pickups for families that depend on schools for breakfast and lunch. Movie theaters, casinos and theme parks were told to limit crowd sizes and keep patrons separated.

The rapid pace of new restrictions caught people and institutions off guard.

Near San Diego State University, Will Remsbottom’s Scrimshaw Coffee had just three people and one was washing windows. “I’m just struggling with this moral conundrum of remaining open and being a potential spreader versus closing and not being able to pay my employees,” he said.

Robert Murillo's younger daughter turned 4 on Sunday, but the family stayed home and ate cupcakes. “They’re still at the age that blowing a balloon makes their day, so thank God for that,” he said.

California has confirmed at least 335 cases of the virus and six deaths. The virus usually causes only mild or moderate symptoms, such as fever and cough, but can be deadly for older people and those with underlying health conditions.

Meanwhile, California is working with Verily, the life sciences arm of Google parent company Alphabet, on a tool to help people determine whether they need to be tested and where to find testing.

The state has increased the number of available hospital beds and will reopen shuttered medical centers in the coming days. Newsom said he was pushing to move many of the state’s 108,000 homeless people indoors, using motels and 450 state-owned trailers set up before the outbreak.

___

AP reporters John Antczak in Los Angeles, Jocelyn Gecker in Moraga, Amy Taxin in Orange County and Julie Watson in San Diego contributed to this report.

___

The Associated Press receives support for health and science coverage from the Howard Hughes Medical Institute’s Department of Science Education. The AP is solely responsible for all content.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by ray245 »

To the mods:

Can we please sticky this thread? This is a thread that is concerning most people's daily lives now and it's not just a political issue of some far away country.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by FaxModem1 »

CNBC
Dow drops nearly 3,000 points, as coronavirus collapse continues; worst day since ’87
PUBLISHED SUN, MAR 15 20206:01 PM EDTUPDATED 2 HOURS AGO
Fred Imbert
@FOIMBERT

WATCH NOW
VIDEO05:17
S&P 500 fell more than 11% on coronavirus fears—Five experts on what to watch
Stocks fell sharply Monday — with the Dow suffering its worst day since the “Black Monday” market crash in 1987 and its third-worst day ever — even after the Federal Reserve embarked on a massive monetary stimulus campaign to curb slower economic growth amid the coronavirus outbreak.

The Dow Jones Industrial Average closed 2,997.10 points lower, or 12.9%, at 20,188.52. The 30-stock Dow was briefly down more than 3,000 points in the final minutes of trading. The S&P 500 dropped 12% to 2,386.13 — hitting its lowest level since December 2018 — while the Nasdaq Composite closed 12.3% lower at 6,904.59 in its worst day ever.

“The markets are getting no break with yesterday’s historic Fed actions and COVID-19 dominating the world’s headlines,” Frank Cappelleri, executive director at Instinet, said in a note. “While the news continues to worsen and with the price action doing things we’ve only seen a handful of other times in the last century, it’s nearly impossible to keep things in perspective.”

“We can’t argue the facts, and we’re dealing with a much bigger issue than just the economy,” Cappelleri said.

The major averages fell to their lows into the close after President Donald Trump said the worst of the outbreak could last until August. He also told reporters the U.S. “may be” heading into a recession.

“The market didn’t hear what it wanted to hear. I don’t think that it wanted to hear that this was going to last until July and August, and now the market does the math. If it lasts until July and August, that means we maybe have a contraction in the second quarter and the third quarter, and that means recession,” BNY Mellon strategist Liz Young said on CNBC’s “Closing Bell.”

Monday’s losses put the Dow down 31.7% from its all-time high and the S&P 500 and Nasdaq more than 29% below their records last month. The Dow fell to its lowest point since 2017.

The Dow’s drop was the worst decline since its “Black Monday” crash three decades ago when it fell more than 22%. The drop surpassed its 9.99% tumble last Thursday. It was also the Dow’s third-worst day ever; it dropped more than 13% in late 1929.

CH 20200316_dow_one_day_losses.png
Trading was halted for 15 minutes shortly after the open as a then-8% drop on the S&P 500 triggered a so-called circuit breaker. It was the third time in the last week a circuit breaker was triggered. Those circuit breakers are imposed by the exchanges to maintain orderly market behavior.

While the central bank’s actions may help ease the functioning of markets, many investors said they would ultimately want to see coronavirus cases peaking and falling in the U.S. before it was safe to take on risk and buy equities again.

The Fed’s move, in tandem with headlines suggesting the White House is preparing a tax break for consumers and a bailout for the airlines industry, made some investors more optimistic on the market.

“This entire market would turn around in one second if the government came out and said, we’re going to provide business interruption insurance to companies that lose money in the second quarter if they don’t fire any workers,” Ricky Sandler, Eminence Capital CEO, told CNBC’s Scott Wapner.

But that optimism gave way into the close as President Trump spoke at a press conference on the coronavirus from the White House.

20200303 Fed Rate cuts
On Sunday, the Fed cut interest rates down to basically zero, their lowest level since 2015, and launched a massive $700 billion quantitative easing program. Trump said he was “very happy” with the announcement, adding: “I think that people in the markets should be very thrilled.”

“This, coupled with an important fiscal package, should help cushion the economic downside from the virus’ effect on economic activity,” said Quincy Krosby, chief market strategist at Prudential Financial. “It’s going to be positive, but the market is at the mercy of the virus and at the mercy of whether the containment policies work.”

The Fed’s announcement came after it issued another emergency rate cut earlier this month. It also comes on the heels of the market’s biggest one-day gain since 2008, with the major averages all surging more than 9% on Friday.

However, news about the coronavirus outbreak did not help sentiment. U.S. cases have jumped to 3,774 and 69 deaths, according to Johns Hopkins University. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention urged organizers to cancel or postpone events with more than 50 people. New York, New Jersey and Connecticut governors banned eating in restaurants and limited events to less than 50 people.

Amid the dire headlines on the coronavirus, investors called for a substantial fiscal response from Congress and the White House.

U.S. airlines are seeking $50 billion in government assistance to curb the virus’ blow to the industry, according to CNBC. Sen. Mitt Romney, R-UT, proposed Monday sending every U.S. adult $1,000 to ease the financial pain from the virus. That proposal came after National Economic Council Director Larry Kudlow said the administration “might” provide direct cash assistance to U.S. households. Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-NY, will reportedly propose a stimulus package of at least $750 billion.

20200312 SP500 bear market
“The main problem this time as to other market disruptions is the abrupt closure of economic activity,” said Dan Deming, managing director at KKM Financial. “The speed of the impact to middle America, let alone the global community is relatively unprecedented.”

Apple shares plunged by 12.9%. Bank stocks took a hit, with Bank of America and JPMorgan Chase each dropping more than 14%. Morgan Stanley fell 15.6% while Citigroup dropped 19.3%. The big banks announced Sunday they were halting their buyback programs in an effort to provide capital where needed.

Airline came off their lows after Trump said the administration would “backstop the airlines.” Delta shares closed just 6.7% lower after falling more than 10%. American Airlines was up more than 10% after plunging earlier in the day.

Investors have been dumping equities amid worries the coronavirus will slow economic growth and take a bite out of corporate profits. Economists at JPMorgan see negative growth for the first quarter while Goldman Sachs downgraded its first-quarter growth forecast to flat from 0.7%.

“The rapid spread of COVID-19 across the globe has dramatically heightened investor uncertainty and rocked global financial markets,” strategists at MRB Partners said in a note, adding the situation will “get worse before it gets better.”

“Looking ahead, the number of active cases is likely to worsen in the near run,” they said.

Subscribe to CNBC PRO for exclusive insights and analysis, and live business day programming from around the world.

—CNBC’s Jeff Cox, Silvia Amaro and Pippa Stevens contributed to this report.
So, we're in for some bad times.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by TimothyC »

The Franklin County judge in front of whom the primary day change was to be passed turned it down. Reports are that there is a direct appeal to the State Supreme Court in progress.

https://www.dispatch.com/news/20200316/ ... -to-june-2
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by MKSheppard »

From Twitter
Wow. @GovNedLamont tells @chrislhayes that Danbury Hospital, where the first COVID-19 case in CT was found, is at capacity and 200 nurses (!!) are furloughed because they have potentially been exposed to the virus.

— Zach Murdock (@zach_murdock) March 17, 2020
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by FaxModem1 »

Politico
Before Trump’s inauguration, a warning: ‘The worst influenza pandemic since 1918'
In a tabletop exercise days before an untested new president took power, officials briefed the incoming administration on a scenario remarkably like the one he faces now.

Donald Trump 2017 inauguration
President Donald Trump delivers his inaugural address in January 2017. | Alex Wong/Getty Images

By NAHAL TOOSI, DANIEL LIPPMAN and DAN DIAMOND

03/16/2020 06:48 PM EDT

Updated: 03/16/2020 07:45 PM EDT

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Seven days before Donald Trump took office, his aides faced a major test: the rapid, global spread of a dangerous virus in cities like London and Seoul, one serious enough that some countries were imposing travel bans.

In a sober briefing, Trump’s incoming team learned that the disease was an emerging pandemic — a strain of novel influenza known as H9N2 — and that health systems were crashing in Asia, overwhelmed by the demand.

“Health officials warn that this could become the worst influenza pandemic since 1918,” Trump’s aides were told. Soon, they heard cases were popping up in California and Texas.

The briefing was intended to hammer home a new, terrifying reality facing the Trump administration, and the incoming president’s responsibility to protect Americans amid a crisis. But unlike the coronavirus pandemic currently ravaging the globe, this 2017 crisis didn’t really happen — it was among a handful of scenarios presented to Trump’s top aides as part of a legally required transition exercise with members of the outgoing administration of Barack Obama.

And in the words of several attendees, the atmosphere was “weird” at best, chilly at worst.

POLITICO obtained documents from the meeting and spoke with more than a dozen attendees to help provide the most detailed reconstruction of the closed-door session yet. It was perhaps the most concrete and visible transition exercise that dealt with the possibility of pandemics, and top officials from both sides — whether they wanted to be there or not — were forced to confront a whole-of-government response to a crisis. The Trump team was told it could face specific challenges, such as shortages of ventilators, anti-viral drugs and other medical essentials, and that having a coordinated, unified national response was “paramount” — warnings that seem eerily prescient given the ongoing coronavirus crisis.

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But roughly two-thirds of the Trump representatives in that room are no longer serving in the administration. That extraordinary turnover in the months and years that followed is likely one reason his administration has struggled to handle the very real pandemic it faces now, former Obama administration officials said.

“The advantage we had under Obama was that during the first four years we had the same White House staff, the same Cabinet,” said former deputy labor secretary Chris Lu, who attended the gathering. “Just having the continuity makes all the difference in the world.”

Sean Spicer, Trump’s first White House press secretary, was among those who participated in the meeting. He said he understood the reasons such exercises could be useful, but described the encounter as a massive transfer of information that ultimately felt very theoretical. In real life, things are never as simple as what’s presented in a table-top exercise, he said.

“There’s no briefing that can prepare you for a worldwide pandemic,” added Spicer, who left the administration in mid-2017.

The outgoing Obama aides and incoming Trump aides gathered for roughly three hours on the afternoon of Friday, Jan. 13, 2017, in the Eisenhower Executive Office Building next to the White House.

"There’s no briefing that can prepare you for a worldwide pandemic."

Sean Spicer, President Donald Trump’s first White House press secretary

At least 30 representatives of Trump’s team — many of them soon-to-be Cabinet members — were present, each sitting next to their closest Obama administration counterpart. Incoming Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross appeared to keep dozing off. Incoming Energy Secretary Rick Perry was getting along famously with Ernest Moniz, the man he was replacing, several fellow participants said.

But it was clear some on the Trump team had barely, if ever, spoken with the people they were replacing. News had broken that same day about national security adviser Michael Flynn’s unusual contacts with Russia’s ambassador to the United States, so his presence in the meeting added to the surrealness. Some members of both groups kept going in and out of the room, but most paid quiet attention to the presentations, which were led by top Obama aides.

Obama aides, in op-eds and essays ripping the Trump administration’s handling of the coronavirus, officially called COVID-19, have pointed to the Jan. 13, 2017, session as a key example of their effort to press the importance of pandemic preparedness to their successors.

In a Friday op-ed, Susan Rice, Obama’s national security adviser, blasted Trump for comments such as “you can never really think” that a pandemic like the coronavirus “is going to happen.” She mentioned the 2017 session as one of many instances of the Obama administration’s efforts to help its successor be ready for such a challenge. She also slammed the Trump team for dismantling the National Security Council section that would play a lead role in organizing the U.S. response to a global pandemic.

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Susan Rice
In a Friday op-ed, Susan Rice, Obama’s national security adviser, blasted Trump for comments such as “you can never really think” that a pandemic like the coronavirus “is going to happen.” | Win McNamee/Getty Images

“Rather than heed the warnings, embrace the planning and preserve the structures and budgets that had been bequeathed to him, the president ignored the risk of a pandemic,” Rice wrote. (Trump’s former national security adviser John Bolton, who oversaw the dissolution of the NSC’s global health security and biodefense section, has defended it as necessary streamlining, countering that global health “remained a top NSC priority.” Trump, when recently asked about the reshuffling, called the question “nasty” and said, “I don’t know anything about it.”)

Lisa Monaco, Obama’s homeland security adviser, explained the thinking behind the January 2017 session in a recent essay for Foreign Affairs. “Although the exercise was required, the specific scenarios we chose were not,” she wrote. “We included a pandemic scenario because I believed then, and I have warned since, that emerging infectious disease was likely to pose one of the gravest risks for the new administration.”

None of the sources argued that one meeting three years ago could have dramatically altered events today. But Obama aides say the Trump administration’s fumbling of the coronavirus outbreak is partly rooted in how unprepared — and in some cases unwilling — it was to engage in transition exercises at all in late 2016 and early 2017.

David Shulkin, who was an Obama appointee at the time but had been nominated to be Veterans Affairs secretary in the Trump administration, said in an interview that with the exception of this exercise, which he didn’t recall well, he noticed that in his agency, there had been “little coordination” and “very little interest in working with the Obama appointees.”

“They had said we don’t really have a lot of need to talk to the Obama appointees,” he said.

That botched handoff sparked weeks of confusion, all the way up to Inauguration Day. “There was a frenzy before the transition where I was asked to consider staying because the [preparedness] mission was so important,” said Nicole Lurie, who served as Obama’s Health and Human Services assistant secretary for preparedness and response, where she worked on crises like the Ebola virus outbreak and attended the pandemic exercise. “Then through the HHS secretary’s office, the next day, I heard they changed their mind.”

The Trump campaign, like the rest of America, was shocked to win the November 2016 election. Soon afterward, Trump cast aside his team’s transition prep work that had happened already and started over; some of his aides described tossing carefully collected binders full of possible personnel picks into trash bins. It was days, sometimes weeks, before his nominees and their aides showed up to meet the people they were replacing — if they did so at all — or to engage in transition meetings. Obama aides said they left detailed memos for their successors, but that quite often it appeared those memos were never read. Many on the Obama side were genuinely surprised that so many actually showed up for the Jan. 13, 2017, exercise, and there were expectations that some would skip it. On the Obama side, several agencies were represented by their second-in-command at the meeting for reasons including a belief that Trump’s principals wouldn’t show.

The gathering was held to satisfy a requirement in a 2016 law that updated the procedures around presidential transitions to require, among other things, that the outgoing administration “prepare and host interagency emergency preparedness and response exercises.” Obama also mentioned it in a 2016 executive order laying out his transition goals.

CORONAVIRUS: WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW
The House unanimously passed a revised coronavirus emergency bill, sending it to the Senate to take up as the coronavirus continues to spread.

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In a tabletop exercise days before Trump took power, officials briefed the incoming administration on a scenario remarkably like the one he faces now.
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The 2016 law came about at the urging of the Partnership for Public Service, a good-government organization that helps administrations and candidates with the transition process. The emergency preparedness provisions were inspired by how George W. Bush handled his transition to Obama; that process, regarded as the gold standard for transition planning, included joint exercises on how to react to improvised explosive devices in cities. Bush had insisted on a detailed and highly coordinated transition planning in part because he felt scarred by the rushed transition he’d experienced from the Bill Clinton administration, not to mention having to deal with the Sept. 11 attacks during his first year.

“The idea was hatched after 9/11 and Hurricane Katrina precisely to prepare for situations like today,” said David Marchick, director of the Partnership for Public Service’s Center for Presidential Transition.

The Obama and Trump teams met in the afternoon, sitting around tables arranged in a rectangle. Participants were given a binder of unclassified materials titled “Presidential Transition Exercise Series,” the contents of which were obtained by POLITICO. The purpose of the exercise, the documents state, was to “familiarize” the incoming team with “domestic incident management policy and practices and continuity of government programs” in case it faced a major crisis. One key goal was to explain to participants the various legal authorities they had to pursue a response, and which agencies had which capabilities and responsibilities. The references provided included detailed explanations of numerous laws and regulations that might affect their work, such as the Oil Pollution Act of 1990.

Aside from the H9N2 pandemic exercise, the participants discussed the case study of how the Obama administration handled Hurricane Sandy in 2012. One section covered a potential cyber incident. Another went through how to respond to a domestic terrorism incident, in this case one carried out by a group of U.S. citizens who placed bombs in nearby spots during a major sporting event in a U.S. city. The terror squad not only detonates the bombs, it also engages in a mass shooting and takes a dozen hostages.

Using the materials, Monaco led the discussion. Her incoming counterpart, Tom Bossert, acted as a “semi co-chair,” attendees said. Ross, the then 79-year-old incoming Commerce secretary, was spotted with his eyes closed on more than one occasion. Elaine Chao, tapped to run the Department of Transportation, paid close attention. Several attendees noted the tense body language between Rice and Flynn, who lasted only a few weeks as Trump’s national security adviser and was ousted amid questions over his dealings with Russian officials.

And then there was the Energy Department duo: Perry, the incoming secretary who previously served as the governor of Texas, and Moniz, the outgoing secretary and famed physicist. The pair seemed to get along fabulously, which stood out to other attendees given the overall distrust between the two teams and the fact that Perry had once proposed getting rid of the Energy Department altogether.

It was a “semi-bizarro lovefest” between the two, a fellow participant said. “They were ready to go make a buddy movie.”

Perry didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment. But in a statement, Moniz, who now leads the Energy Futures Initiative, said, “It is correct that [Perry] and I offered relevant perspectives from a governor’s and Cabinet secretary’s seat, respectively. As governor of Texas for a long time, Perry had been through many episodes needing crisis management.”

Rick Perry
Energy Secretary Rick Perry was getting along famously with Ernest Moniz, the man he was replacing, | Drew Angerer/Getty Images

For the most part, however, the Trump team was in receive mode.

Partly, that was not a surprise: Many of Trump’s personnel choices had little or no government experience, and the Obama aides were presenting massive troves of information to them about how a raft of agencies had to work together to respond to various crises.

Multiple current and former Trump officials reached by POLITICO said they did not recall much about the briefing. But some Obama aides who attended said they were left with the impression that many of the Trump aides showed up to simply check off a box more than to learn. The impression was boosted in part because the transition overall was going so poorly. Several Trump nominees had barely even spoken to their Obama counterparts.

The State Department representative at the meeting, for instance, was Tom Shannon, a veteran career foreign service officer serving as undersecretary of State for political affairs. Shannon attended instead of Secretary of State John Kerry in part because he would be staying on under Trump and was essentially the “transition designee.” But that Jan. 13, 2017, session was the first time he’d seen the incoming secretary of State, Rex Tillerson, in person since Trump picked him for the job a month earlier. (Before the inauguration, Kerry and Tillerson spoke once, by phone, for a few minutes, people familiar with the situation said.)

“The problem is that they came in very arrogant and convinced that they knew more than the outgoing administration — full swagger,” one former Obama administration official who attended said.

“There were people who were there who said, ‘This is really stupid and why do we need to be here,’” added another senior Obama administration official who attended, alleging that Ross and incoming Education Secretary Betsy DeVos were especially dismissive in conversations on the sidelines of the session. “But some Trump people, like Tom Bossert, were trying to take it seriously.”

Asked for comment, Liz Hill, a spokesperson for DeVos, told POLITICO: “This is nothing more than a hit piece with no basis in reality. This department, under the secretary’s leadership, has taken swift action to support students, parents, and education leaders during this pandemic and will continue to do so. This former Obama official’s wild claims don’t comport with reality.”

A Commerce Department spokesperson denied that Ross had dozed off. "Secretary Ross found the meeting quite interesting and informative, taking many notes during the exercise," the spokesperson said. "He continues to rely upon that knowledge and experience as he assists the president in confronting the crisis at hand."

Another participant noted that such exercises are primarily aimed at helping an incoming administration make it through the first several months of its tenure — “the idea being, of course, that during the transition period we’re uniquely vulnerable.”

“He was never interested in things that might happen. He’s totally focused on the stock market, the economy and always bashing his predecessor and giving him no credit."

A former senior Trump administration official

Presumably, by the third or fourth year in power, the administration would have its own processes and muscle memory, the participant said.

Asked whether information about the pandemic exercise reached the president-elect, a former senior Trump administration official who attended the meeting couldn’t say for sure but noted that it wasn’t “the kind of thing that really interested the president very much.”

“He was never interested in things that might happen. He’s totally focused on the stock market, the economy and always bashing his predecessor and giving him no credit,” the person said. “The possibility things were things he didn’t spend much time on or show much interest in.

“Even though we would put time on the schedule for things like that, if they happened at all, they would be very, very brief,” the former official continued. “To get the president to be focused on something like this would be quite hard.”

Anything associated with Obama or his administration was also a no-go zone for Trump aides. If you brought them up, “that would be an immediate rejection, like, ‘Why are they even here? Why the fuck did you ask them?’”

Ben Lefebvre contributed to this report.
So, the firings/quittings of those at the scenario and Trump's lack of interest led to the current problems the US is facing.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by mr friendly guy »

Australian doctors urging government to implement lockdowns as well. So far might be a minority, but we shall see.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-17/ ... n/12062368
Australian doctors issue urgent plea for governments to ramp up coronavirus response
ABC Investigations By Sarah Curnow
Posted about an hour ago


Australian doctors have issued an urgent plea to governments to immediately change course in their response to COVID-19.

Key points:
The doctors warn of an Italy-style disaster in Australia unless stricter measures are enforced
The pleas are made in an open-letter circulating online among doctors
The letter has almost 4,000 signatories, the author says
The doctors are demanding state and federal governments implement strict lockdown and social distancing, and ramp up health resources to cope with a surge in critically ill patients.

The demands are outlined in an open letter currently circulating among doctors.

The letter's author, intensive care specialist Greg Kelly, told the ABC he consulted with intensive care colleagues at several major hospitals in Melbourne and Sydney when formulating the call for action.

"We are almost at 4,000 signatories," he said, adding he was confident "at least 3,500" were doctors.

The ABC has not been able to verify those figures.

Doctors warn against Italy-level disaster
According to the letter, Australia's health system and spread of age demographics are similar to Italy's, rather than China's.

"On current growth rates, the 300 cases in Australia today will be … 10,000 by the 4th of April" the letter reads.

They argue that under current preparations, Australia will be "in a worse position than Italy is currently in".

Italian doctors are reporting they do not have the necessary ventilators and other resources needed to save critically ill COVID-19 patients, and they have been forced to make the wrenching choice between patients who can be helped and those who will be refused the treatment necessary to save their lives.

Coronavirus update: Follow all the latest news in our daily wrap
The Australian doctors' letter points out that the death rate in Italy is "very high" — much higher than in Wuhan, where the virus first emerged in late December.

It calls on the Government to heed the lessons of China, Singapore, Korea and Taiwan, which have enforced widespread economic lockdown and social distancing measures greater than what have so far been adopted in Australia.

"We believe that Australian federal and state governments can avert disaster by heeding the lessons of other countries," it says.

The Federal Government said today it was taking medical advice on whether it needed to bring in a new wave of restrictions.

"We will continue to act as we are advised," Finance Minister Mathias Cormann said.

"As the Prime Minister indicated yesterday in relation to some of these things, it is important to time these decisions in the right way."


Breaking down the latest news and research to understand how the world is living through an epidemic, this is the ABC's Coronacast.
Frontline general practitioners have told the ABC they believe the Australian Government is ignoring what has been learned in those Asian countries.

"We have had two months to prepare for this," Victorian GP Ern Chang told the ABC.

He said Australia should learn from countries which had dealt with previous pandemics and adjusted their health systems in response.

"Singapore and Hong Kong had SARS", he said. "Singapore has a National Centre for Infectious Diseases and has an all-of-government, consistent response."

The Australian Medical Association distanced itself from the sentiments expressed in the letter.

"The AMA do not believe that the actions proposed in the letter are necessary yet", it said.

"There are many messages out in the community — from official and unofficial sources, from individuals and groups.

"[Chief medical officer] Professor Brendan Murphy ... will provide advice on these matters at the appropriate time, based on the best available medical evidence."
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by mr friendly guy »

https://www.ausdoc.com.au/news/herd-imm ... AifQ%3D%3D

Herd immunity without vaccines. Usually its done by vaccines, not be selectively infecting people.

Lets see what Australian doctors think about the UK's "Herd immunity" strategy
Herd immunity strategy could be 'catastrophic'
Australian experts reject the idea of allowing coronavirus infection to spread
2 minutes to read 17th March 2020By Kemal Atlay
0
0
Doctors and epidemiologists have slammed proposals for a so-called herd immunity strategy to tackle the COVID-19 pandemic, warning it could have catastrophic consequences.


Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte announcing the plans in his video address.
The controversial approach was briefly proposed in the UK and, overnight, has been adopted by the Netherlands.

Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte announced plans for “maximally controlling the virus” by “building group immunity in a controlled way” in the absence of a vaccine.

"This leads to controlled distribution among groups that are least at risk," he said in a video address.


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“The larger the group that is immune, the less chance that the virus will jump to vulnerable elderly people and people with poor health."

The herd immunity strategy was first floated by the UK’s chief science advisor, Sir Patrick Vallance, who conceded that 60% of the population — around 40 million people — would need to contract SARS-CoV-2 to achieve the desired level of immunity to damp down transmission of the virus.

Read the entirety of AusDoc's coronavirus coverage here

Professor Raina MacIntyre, head of the biosecurity research program at the Kirby Institute, UNSW Sydney, said that achieving the necessary infection rate for herd immunity would take Australia “into the catastrophic range of epidemic scenarios, worse than what we are seeing in Italy right now and far worse than China”.

“Furthermore, viruses cannot be instructed to only infect healthy young people, so allowing transmission will result in vulnerable people becoming infected and dying,” she wrote in The Sydney Morning Herald.

Faced with a public backlash, the UK government has backed away from the herd immunity approach, instead adopting mitigation strategies followed by most countries, including Australia, that aim to slow the rate of transmission and delay the peak of disease to reduce the burden on the health system.

Professor Bruce Thompson, Dean of Health at Swinburne University, Melbourne, said, considering the COVID-19 mortality rate is 1-3%, if the UK had pursued the strategy, it “could mean hundreds of thousands of deaths and millions hospitalised”.

“This is not a correct approach to take," he said.

Professor Paul Komesaroff, director of the Centre for Ethics in Medicine and Society at Monash University in Melbourne, said there were far too many ‘unknowns’ to risk such an approach.

“There are a few problems that are self-evident with this, the most obvious being we know what happens when the virus is just allowed to spread,” he said, referring to the initial outbreak in Wuhan, China.

“The consequences of that are a huge, immediate surge in cases that completely overwhelm the capacity of the medical system to cope — as a result of which there's a very large number of deaths.”

He added that the lack of consensus on the true fatality rate of the virus was also a problem.

“We don’t know what the denominator is because we only test people who are either high-risk or actually have the disease.”

Another ‘unknown’ is the potential for reinfection and the degree of immunity that patients develop after infection, he said.
So anyone want to call this herd immunity strategy of infecting 60% of the population a human rights violation?

On another note, the UK has a scientific advisor. Did they hire the Master instead of the Doctor? :D
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by TimothyC »

TimothyC wrote: 2020-03-16 07:40pm The Franklin County judge in front of whom the primary day change was to be passed turned it down. Reports are that there is a direct appeal to the State Supreme Court in progress.

https://www.dispatch.com/news/20200316/ ... -to-june-2
The State Director of Public Health did an end-run around the court and ordered all of the polling places closed for the duration of the emergency.

https://twitter.com/GovMikeDeWine/statu ... 8789306368
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by The Romulan Republic »

mr friendly guy wrote: 2020-03-17 02:01am
So anyone want to call this herd immunity strategy of infecting 60% of the population a human rights violation?

On another note, the UK has a scientific advisor. Did they hire the Master instead of the Doctor? :D
The UK's strategy literally seems to be "let the old die". Its the kind of almost cartoonish evil you don't expect to see outside of sci-fi or wild conspiracy theories, no.
TimothyC wrote: 2020-03-17 02:21am
TimothyC wrote: 2020-03-16 07:40pm The Franklin County judge in front of whom the primary day change was to be passed turned it down. Reports are that there is a direct appeal to the State Supreme Court in progress.

https://www.dispatch.com/news/20200316/ ... -to-june-2
The State Director of Public Health did an end-run around the court and ordered all of the polling places closed for the duration of the emergency.

https://twitter.com/GovMikeDeWine/statu ... 8789306368
Given that we don't know what "the duration" will be, that's rather troubling, and I'm not at all sure its constitutional. We'll see if the courts let that stand, but maybe my concerns about outright cancellation of elections weren't that far off the mark, unfortunately.

Anyone know if Ohio has a mail ballot option?
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer »

The risk of serious ongoing complications even in healthy people renders the idea of deliberately allowing the majority of the population to be infected utterly insane. With the mounting evidence that even people who get off light from infections can have serious disabilities that crop up years later, it's just... It's sociopathic and counterproductive.

EDIT:
TRR, stop conflating primaries with the actual election.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by The Romulan Republic »

loomer wrote: 2020-03-17 03:22am The risk of serious ongoing complications even in healthy people renders the idea of deliberately allowing the majority of the population to be infected utterly insane. With the mounting evidence that even people who get off light from infections can have serious disabilities that crop up years later, it's just... It's sociopathic and counterproductive.

EDIT:
TRR, stop conflating primaries with the actual election.
I'm not.

TimothyC reported that polling places were closed "for the duration of the emergency". That is... rather ambiguous. Will they try to extend that to the general election? Who the hell knows. Who the hell knows what the situation will be with coronavirus in November? It would be unconstitutional to indefinitely suspend elections, without a doubt. But surely you're not stupid enough to still think that "its illegal" means Republicans won't try to do it.

The Constitution is just a piece of paper if its not enforced. And we have seen that there is increasingly little will to enforce it in many parts of our government, and indeed an active campaign to subvert it.

If I'd said a few months ago that there would be curfews going into place and National Guard units being called up across the country, I'm sure most of this board would have thought I was nuts. But here we are. The Universe is having an unfortunate tendency to prove alarmists right these days, or at least partially right. I do not think it is unreasonable to suspect that coronavirus will result, whether by necessity or malice, in large numbers of people being disenfranchised this November. And to suggest that Trump and his allies will attempt to use that for their benefit is simply to observe how they have conducted themselves in all things thus far.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer »

Polling places are at present open only for the primaries, not for the general, which must go forward (now would, perhaps, be a good time for you yanks to start mass printing mail-in ballots). Stop hyperventilating every time a reasonable public health measure is taken because THE ELECTION!
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by The Romulan Republic »

loomer wrote: 2020-03-17 03:37am Polling places are at present open only for the primaries, not for the general, which must go forward (now would, perhaps, be a good time for you yanks to start mass printing mail-in ballots). Stop hyperventilating every time a reasonable public health measure is taken because THE ELECTION!
Stop accusing me of "hyperventilating" because I'm worried that an unprecedented crisis might be used to further restrict a fundamental right that has been steadily restricted over recent years, when it is already closing polling places.

Let me ask you a question. You say its "a reasonable public health measure". Okay. What if the pandemic is still ongoing in November? What if it has a resurgence in the fall? Won't it also be a "reasonable public health measure" to cancel the general election then? And if you, who whatever I may think of you are by no means a Trumper, think so- how much pushback is Trump really likely to get if he tries to do so? Hell, it doesn't even have to be something so sweeping as "all elections are cancelled". Just restrictions or delays in certain states to supress turnout and muddy the results. Nor does it have to be an official edict from the President. He could simply make his wishes known to Republican governors and legislators of, say, swing states that are in danger of flipping blue. And if you believe Trump and his allies would make that decision based on which states were most effective, and not which states they were most vulnerable in, you have observed literally nothing over the last four years.

Perhaps you imagine (as your tone seems to imply) that elections are simply a luxury that we can't afford during this crisis? No. They are a fundamental RIGHT, and probably our last chance short of violence to get rid of the man who, among his innumerable other sins, is actively making this public health crisis worse. If we had a reasonably fair (by the standards of its time) election in the midst of a fucking Civil War, we can have one during a pandemic. And if we don't, then democracy is dead, and there is no hope of reform short of at best mass demonstrations and civil disobedience (which is also going to be muted by the need for people to stay indoors), and at worst a protracted civil war.

You're right about one thing, though- we should be mass printing mail ballots. We should be doing that anyway, because its probably the single most convenient and secure way to hold an election. But we aren't. And we realistically won't. Some states do, and some more states might, but it'll be a state by state thing, and some states won't. And there is pretty much no way a Federal plan for nationwide mail order ballots gets through Moscow Mitch's Senate and gets Trump's signature in time for November. I'd love to be wrong. I really would. But if this is continuing in the fall, then realistically, there are going to be states where most or all voters are disenfranchised. And we fucking SHOULD care about that.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2020-03-17 04:03am
loomer wrote: 2020-03-17 03:37am Polling places are at present open only for the primaries, not for the general, which must go forward (now would, perhaps, be a good time for you yanks to start mass printing mail-in ballots). Stop hyperventilating every time a reasonable public health measure is taken because THE ELECTION!
Stop accusing me of "hyperventilating" because I'm worried that an unprecedented crisis might be used to further restrict a fundamental right that has been steadily restricted over recent years, when it is already closing polling places.

Let me ask you a question. You say its "a reasonable public health measure". Okay. What if the pandemic is still ongoing in November? What if it has a resurgence in the fall? Won't it also be a "reasonable public health measure" to cancel the general election then? And if you, who whatever I may think of you are by no means a Trumper, think so- how much pushback is Trump really likely to get if he tries to do so? Hell, it doesn't even have to be something so sweeping as "all elections are cancelled". Just restrictions or delays in certain states to supress turnout and muddy the results. Nor does it have to be an official edict from the President. He could simply make his wishes known to Republican governors and legislators of, say, swing states that are in danger of flipping blue. And if you believe Trump and his allies would make that decision based on which states were most effective, and not which states they were most vulnerable in, you have observed literally nothing over the last four years.

Perhaps you imagine (as your tone seems to imply) that elections are simply a luxury that we can't afford during this crisis? No. They are a fundamental RIGHT, and probably our last chance short of violence to get rid of the man who, among his innumerable other sins, is actively making this public health crisis worse. If we had a reasonably fair (by the standards of its time) election in the midst of a fucking Civil War, we can have one during a pandemic. And if we don't, then democracy is dead, and there is no hope of reform short of at best mass demonstrations and civil disobedience (which is also going to be muted by the need for people to stay indoors), and at worst a protracted civil war.

You're right about one thing, though- we should be mass printing mail ballots. We should be doing that anyway, because its probably the single most convenient and secure way to hold an election. But we aren't. And we realistically won't. Some states do, and some more states might, but it'll be a state by state thing, and some states won't. And there is pretty much no way a Federal plan for nationwide mail order ballots gets through Moscow Mitch's Senate and gets Trump's signature in time for November. I'd love to be wrong. I really would. But if this is continuing in the fall, then realistically, there are going to be states where most or all voters are disenfranchised. And we fucking SHOULD care about that.
Fuck's sake, this is why I call it hyperventilating. I point out that it's a reasonable health measure affecting the primaries and not the generals, and you start your usual screaming match and nonsense. Lemme break this down:

Is it a reasonable public health measure to close unnecessary polling stations (and primaries are precisely that) during a highly communicable pandemic? Yes. Would it be a reasonable public health measure to unconditionally close polling stations during a constitutionally mandated general election? No - the word 'reasonable' is in there for a purpose. It is reasonable to minimize risk for activities that are not necessary during the crisis period of a pandemic until that pandemic is under control, a vaccine is available, or such curtailing infringes on certain fundamental obligations and rights. It is not reasonable to continue those measures into every situation without reappraisal, and no court would find otherwise.

Your entire segment about how I think elections are a luxury is complete lunacy. Nothing I said can be reasonably interpreted to convey, carry, or otherwise impart that idea. This is why I say you hyperventilate - you read something, go 'ELECTIONS! TRUMP! FASCISM!' and start posting utter tripe. I'm not going to bother arguing against it further, since it's something you've made up completely (you might recognize this as a strawman!) rather than being related to, well, anything I've argued.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by ray245 »

loomer wrote: 2020-03-17 04:17am Fuck's sake, this is why I call it hyperventilating. I point out that it's a reasonable health measure affecting the primaries and not the generals, and you start your usual screaming match and nonsense. Lemme break this down:

Is it a reasonable public health measure to close unnecessary polling stations (and primaries are precisely that) during a highly communicable pandemic? Yes. Would it be a reasonable public health measure to unconditionally close polling stations during a constitutionally mandated general election? No - the word 'reasonable' is in there for a purpose. It is reasonable to minimize risk for activities that are not necessary during the crisis period of a pandemic until that pandemic is under control, a vaccine is available, or such curtailing infringes on certain fundamental obligations and rights. It is not reasonable to continue those measures into every situation without reappraisal, and no court would find otherwise.

Your entire segment about how I think elections are a luxury is complete lunacy. Nothing I said can be reasonably interpreted to convey, carry, or otherwise impart that idea. This is why I say you hyperventilate - you read something, go 'ELECTIONS! TRUMP! FASCISM!' and start posting utter tripe. I'm not going to bother arguing against it further, since it's something you've made up completely (you might recognize this as a strawman!) rather than being related to, well, anything I've argued.
Yeah. The virus is not giving much people a choice. Either you have an election or you have more deaths.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer »

ray245 wrote: 2020-03-17 04:27am
loomer wrote: 2020-03-17 04:17am Fuck's sake, this is why I call it hyperventilating. I point out that it's a reasonable health measure affecting the primaries and not the generals, and you start your usual screaming match and nonsense. Lemme break this down:

Is it a reasonable public health measure to close unnecessary polling stations (and primaries are precisely that) during a highly communicable pandemic? Yes. Would it be a reasonable public health measure to unconditionally close polling stations during a constitutionally mandated general election? No - the word 'reasonable' is in there for a purpose. It is reasonable to minimize risk for activities that are not necessary during the crisis period of a pandemic until that pandemic is under control, a vaccine is available, or such curtailing infringes on certain fundamental obligations and rights. It is not reasonable to continue those measures into every situation without reappraisal, and no court would find otherwise.

Your entire segment about how I think elections are a luxury is complete lunacy. Nothing I said can be reasonably interpreted to convey, carry, or otherwise impart that idea. This is why I say you hyperventilate - you read something, go 'ELECTIONS! TRUMP! FASCISM!' and start posting utter tripe. I'm not going to bother arguing against it further, since it's something you've made up completely (you might recognize this as a strawman!) rather than being related to, well, anything I've argued.
Yeah. The virus is not giving much people a choice. Either you have an election or you have more deaths.
Well, either you have one conducted in person and more deaths or one conducted through the post and less deaths, so there is a third choice but it's one that'll take time to prep. Gotta love that reacting sensibly to the current emergent crisis is clear proof that the election will be cancelled, because clearly there's no possibility that the situation on the ground will be manifestly different in six months time in a rapidly evolving crisis situation. But clearly thinking this means we hate democracy because... reasons.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A
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