The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

[The Romulan Republic]

I said no such thing. I have no idea what's going to happen in November and I said as much, but I do think that there is reason for concern.

Leaving aside loomer's usual abuse of me, ray's got it- unless this is over by November, there is going to be a stark choice for a lot of people between the right to vote and the preservation of life. In that case, considering the threat our democratic rights are under, I'd honestly choose the vote. But I suspect most people will prefer to choose short term safety. And honestly, its hard to blame them.

Theoretically there is a third way, and some states will take it- but it is highly unlikely, to put it mildly, that there will be a nation-wide mail ballot system in place by November, even though there really should be.

[loomer]

I said no such thing. I have no idea what's going to happen in November and I said as much, but I do think that there is reason for concern.

Leaving aside loomer's reflexive hysterical abuse of me, ray's got it- unless this is over by November, there is going to be a stark choice for a lot of people between the right to vote and the preservation of life. In that case, considering the threat our democratic rights are under, I'd honestly choose the vote. But I suspect most people will prefer to choose short term safety. And honestly, its hard to blame them.

Theoretically there is a third way, and some states will take it- but it is highly unlikely, to put it mildly, that there will be a nation-wide mail ballot system in place by November, even though there really should be.

Buddy, there's no 'reflexive hysterical abuse' of you. You said a dumb thing and got smacked for it, and the flippant summation of your inane argument that I in some way view elections as a luxury as my hating democracy has a great deal more to do with what you said than your argument did with anything of mine. Learn to take your lumps or stop posting dumb shit.

[The Romulan Republic]

Shrug. I've said what I have to say, I'm not going to convince you, and I don't want the thread to get closed like the last one. Time will tell which of us is correct, and I genuinely hope that its you.

[ray245]

Well, either you have one conducted in person and more deaths or one conducted through the post and less deaths, so there is a third choice but it's one that'll take time to prep. Gotta love that reacting sensibly to the current emergent crisis is clear proof that the election will be cancelled, because clearly there's no possibility that the situation on the ground will be manifestly different in six months time in a rapidly evolving crisis situation. But clearly thinking this means we hate democracy because... reasons.

Yeah. If you managed to contain the virus, you can have work around by November. You can pass laws to change the way voting is conducted, say spread over a number of days to limit the crowd of people at the polling booth and etc.

[loomer]

Well, either you have one conducted in person and more deaths or one conducted through the post and less deaths, so there is a third choice but it's one that'll take time to prep. Gotta love that reacting sensibly to the current emergent crisis is clear proof that the election will be cancelled, because clearly there's no possibility that the situation on the ground will be manifestly different in six months time in a rapidly evolving crisis situation. But clearly thinking this means we hate democracy because... reasons.

Yeah. If you managed to contain the virus, you can have work around by November. You can pass laws to change the way voting is conducted, say spread over a number of days to limit the crowd of people at the polling booth and etc.

That's definitely an option. Some kind of contactless method might also be possible to devise, but obviously there'd be big issues around potential tampering with any electronic solution to that (but then, the yanks already use electronic voting machines half the time, right?)

[Broomstick]

Australian doctors urging government to implement lockdowns as well. So far might be a minority, but we shall see.

The sooner you do it the better it works, apparently. Australia has the advantage of ocean borders and distance which makes people breaking that border much harder.

[Broomstick]

The Franklin County judge in front of whom the primary day change was to be passed turned it down. Reports are that there is a direct appeal to the State Supreme Court in progress.

https://www.dispatch.com/news/20200316/ ... -to-june-2

The State Director of Public Health did an end-run around the court and ordered all of the polling places closed for the duration of the emergency.

https://twitter.com/GovMikeDeWine/statu ... 8789306368

Meanwhile, Chicago's elections are going forward. Although apparently a record number of people voted early/by mail. Among other problems - because most election judges are retired elderly a large number have quit to stay home. So they have been frantically training new ones. Fortunately, there is a large pool of younger people who are not currently going to work at their regular jobs and are available for this.

[loomer]

Australian doctors urging government to implement lockdowns as well. So far might be a minority, but we shall see.

The sooner you do it the better it works, apparently. Australia has the advantage of ocean borders and distance which makes people breaking that border much harder.

Unfortunately we're past the point where ocean borders matter that much. We have sustained community transmission.

[Broomstick]

Polling places are at present open only for the primaries, not for the general, which must go forward (now would, perhaps, be a good time for you yanks to start mass printing mail-in ballots). Stop hyperventilating every time a reasonable public health measure is taken because THE ELECTION!

The primary elections are a reflection of how the state will handle the national election. Chicago is trying to figure out how to hold an election despite a pandemic. Ohio is just throwing up their hands and canceling it.

Since we don't know what the situation may be in November I think I prefer governments that are trying to figure out how to make this work despite such circumstances over those not even trying.

[Broomstick]

Unfortunately we're past the point where ocean borders matter that much. We have sustained community transmission.

Ah. Too bad. I had hoped you weren't that far along.

In which case it's even more important your government acts quickly.

[loomer]

Polling places are at present open only for the primaries, not for the general, which must go forward (now would, perhaps, be a good time for you yanks to start mass printing mail-in ballots). Stop hyperventilating every time a reasonable public health measure is taken because THE ELECTION!

The primary elections are a reflection of how the state will handle the national election. Chicago is trying to figure out how to hold an election despite a pandemic. Ohio is just throwing up their hands and canceling it.

Since we don't know what the situation may be in November I think I prefer governments that are trying to figure out how to make this work despite such circumstances over those not even trying.

If the escalating quarantines work, the situation in November won't resemble the current one in any meaningful way. If they don't, you'll have much bigger problems.

Unfortunately we're past the point where ocean borders matter that much. We have sustained community transmission.

Ah. Too bad. I had hoped you weren't that far along.

In which case it's even more important your government acts quickly.

Unfortunately we're now at ~500 cases of which at least 100 are community-based transmission. We needed to act much earlier and ban all travel to the US, but our government is even less competent than yours in this matter.

[Broomstick]

And there is pretty much no way a Federal plan for nationwide mail order ballots gets through Moscow Mitch's Senate and gets Trump's signature in time for November. I'd love to be wrong. I really would. But if this is continuing in the fall, then realistically, there are going to be states where most or all voters are disenfranchised. And we fucking SHOULD care about that.

I'll also note that the Feds have NO authority to tell the states how to hold elections. Those are managed and run by the states alone. So that's another reason there won't be a "Federal plan for nationwide mail order ballots". There's no constitutional basis for it. Not only would the current SCotUS shoot any such plan down instantly, I can't think of any SCotUS that would have gone along with that.

I'll just note that if elections are cancelled in November the current term of the president and vice president ends in January, as do the terms of ALL of the House and 1/3 of the Senate. I do believe that would lead to a constitutional crisis, as only 2/3 of the Senate would still legally hold office or have any authority to legislate.

I really think the US needs to find a way to make elections work despite this sort of thing.

I'll also note that in the US elections still took place during the 1918 Flu Pandemic. So the one precedent we have says elections go forward even during a pandemic.

[mr friendly guy]

https://twitter.com/jackma/status/12395 ... 26210?s=21
China's richest man Jack Ma will donate 20,000 test kits, 100,000 masks and 1,000 medical use protective suits and face shields to 54 African nations EACH. Obviously he did this to prove his loyalty to the communist party. There is no other explanation for this. While this is going on, maybe Australia can buy from China some test kits since we are short.

----------------------------------------

And I thought Australians fighting over toilet paper was bad. In Denmark people rob the emergency department for masks.
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... %2F8049942

-------------------------------

China is now reporting that imported cases outnumber local cases for 4 days in a row.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... reddit.com

Mainland China had 21 new confirmed cases on Monday, the National Health Commission said, up from 16 a day earlier. Of the new cases, 20 involved infected travellers from abroad.

--------------------------------------------
This is funny and tragic at the same time. Chinese woman living in America with her husband could not get tested for covid 19 despite requesting it three times. So she flew back to China to get treatment.


https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/st ... t-us-china

By ALICE SUCHINA CORRESPONDENT
MARCH 15, 202010:59 AM
HONG KONG — A Chinese citizen living in Massachusetts became ill this month, with symptoms consistent with the coronavirus. She went to a local hospital and asked to be tested three times, but was denied. Frustrated, she flew to China — and tested positive upon arrival.
According to Chinese officials, who provided the details, she is one of the nation’s 114 imported coronavirus cases, the newest concern for the country where the coronavirus global pandemic began.

Seven weeks ago, 5 million people fled Wuhan and an unknown number left the country as China went into lockdown in a move to combat the deadly virus’ spread.

But with many governments abroad failing to act swiftly to implement testing, prepare hospitals and medical workers or implement tough social distancing practices, infections and deaths are mounting worldwide.

The woman, who was identified only by her surname, Li, was originally from Chongqing, Chinese authorities said, without specifying what work she did or how long she’d lived in Massachusetts. She’d attended a Feb. 26-27 company meeting where another attendee later tested positive for coronavirus, she told Chinese authorities.

She said she began exhibiting symptoms on March 1: chills, then a fever of 102 degrees, then a cough, runny nose, nausea, muscle aches and fatigue.

Chinese officials said that Li went to a hospital in Massachusetts on March 3 and she was given oseltamivir, an antiviral medication used for the flu. She returned to the same hospital on March 5 and Tuesday for chest scans, which turned out normal.

On Wednesday, Chinese health authorities said, Li returned to the hospital for another chest scan, and it showed that her lungs were infected. But she was not admitted to the hospital. She requested to be tested for the coronavirus three times, but was rejected.

On Thursday, Li flew with her husband and son from Los Angeles International Airport to Beijing on the 1 a.m. Air China Flight 988.

A flight attendant surnamed Sun told the Beijing News that Li was seated in an isolation area in the back of the plane, blocked from other passengers by a curtain, after she told the attendant she had low blood sugar.

Li and her family were taken to a hospital upon arrival: She had a fever, fatigue and dry cough at the time. Her husband had fatigue and her son had no symptoms.

She was tested and confirmed positive for coronavirus on Friday. Beijing authorities said 59 people who’d come into close contact with Li were all being monitored as well.

So she potentially infected 59 people, who I assume were from the flight from LAX to Beijing. Now I am no expert on US geography, but isn't Massuchusetts where she lives on the east coast, and the Los Angeles on the west coast. So she flew from east to west before going to China, potentially infecting people from the airport in Massuchusetts and people in LAX, all because the fucked up US medical system wouldn't even test her. Good job USA.

---------------------------------------
On another note. Yesterday Serbia asked for China's help, and so far the first batch has arrived.
Because Google's search algorithm is totally fair, when I typed in China donates medical supply to Serbia and adjusted articles for past week, nothing turns up. With duckduckgo the first one nets this.

http://www.ecns.cn/news/2020-03-17/deta ... 6851.shtml

The first batch of medical aid from China to Serbia has arrived in Belgrade over the weekend to help fight the COVID-19.

The Serbian government said in a press release on Monday that the shipment included 1,000 rapid test kits manufactured by the Shenzhen-based BGI Genomics, which were donated by the Chinese humanitarian organization Mammoth Foundation.

The assistance action was coordinated by the Chinese Embassy in Serbia, in cooperation with the Serbian government.

The test kits arrived here on Sunday night and have been distributed to the national laboratory overnight. According to Xiong Tao, vice president of the BGI global development, the test kits can provide results within three hours.

Meanwhile I found out China also donated to Belgium and Spain. I bet you it won't make much mention in US press. Of course the US can't even supply its own masks yet alone help other nations. Same position for the EU.

[Broomstick]

Theoretically there is a third way, and some states will take it- but it is highly unlikely, to put it mildly, that there will be a nation-wide mail ballot system in place by November, even though there really should be.

I though all states had an absentee voting system. That may need to be ramped up considerably, but it's not like there is no framework for this whatsoever.

[Broomstick]

The primary elections are a reflection of how the state will handle the national election. Chicago is trying to figure out how to hold an election despite a pandemic. Ohio is just throwing up their hands and canceling it.

Since we don't know what the situation may be in November I think I prefer governments that are trying to figure out how to make this work despite such circumstances over those not even trying.

If the escalating quarantines work, the situation in November won't resemble the current one in any meaningful way. If they don't, you'll have much bigger problems.

The US is pretty adamant about elections - we held one during our civil war, after all. Holding them would be important beyond just the legalities, it also shows a stability of government in difficult times.

Also - with the current administration I haven't a clue how badly this might be handled. Numerous state governors are stepping up to the plate with their own authority to do things, which is good - but it also varies by state. That means that we might have most states getting their public health under control, but a handful that are still a disaster area.

About the only thing I can think of that will motivate the current Federal administration to start helping is that it's the states holding their base the ones most likely to fuck up handling this pandemic. The blue states like California and New York are being a lot more aggressive about control measures. Some reds are taking it seriously, too - mine shut down restaurants/bars/casinos/etc. before Chicago/Illinois did, as an example, even though we have fewer infections (that we know about) and is proactively setting up for drive-by testing. And, as you point out, Ohio shut down the primary which is an election that can be postponed or moved or even cancelled.

Meanwhile, last I heard West Virginia is still claiming to have no cases which is ridiculous. I can only conclude that they simply haven't tested anyone. But then, West Virginia is a bit of a (apologies to Tev) dumpster-fire.

Unfortunately we're now at ~500 cases of which at least 100 are community-based transmission. We needed to act much earlier and ban all travel to the US, but our government is even less competent than yours in this matter.

That is... frightening.

[loomer]

The primary elections are a reflection of how the state will handle the national election. Chicago is trying to figure out how to hold an election despite a pandemic. Ohio is just throwing up their hands and canceling it.

Since we don't know what the situation may be in November I think I prefer governments that are trying to figure out how to make this work despite such circumstances over those not even trying.

If the escalating quarantines work, the situation in November won't resemble the current one in any meaningful way. If they don't, you'll have much bigger problems.

The US is pretty adamant about elections - we held one during our civil war, after all. Holding them would be important beyond just the legalities, it also shows a stability of government in difficult times.

I'm aware, and I'm not sure where this idea is coming from that I'm saying the biggun shouldn't be held - I'm not, in any way, shape, or form. What I am saying is that if you can't arrest this pandemic by November and it's still burning strong rather than burning out, the situation is going to be so completely fucked that holding the election or not won't make any difference. If six months of even semi-competent public health response can't get it under relative control with quarantines, social distancing, and a potential vaccine, then you might as well vote conventionally anyway because everyone will already be sick, recovered, or dead.

That's the central difference between now, when the pandemic is on an unavoidable upswing but the curve can still be flattened and its spread arrested and contained, and November, by which time it's either been arrested and reduced to a manageable level or has so completely fucked the nation that one more infection vector won't really matter. The two situations really aren't meaningfully comparable, so any panic over cancelling a primary really is apples to oranges: the event is different, the level of danger is different, the status of the epidemic is different. What is reasonable as a public health precaution now won't automatically be so by then, regardless of the real or symbolic value of the election itself.

For another analogy, viewing action taken to arrest the spread now as strongly indicative of the situation in six months is a bit like worrying that the tourniquet you've tied around your leg above an extremely high volume artery bleed might give you gangrene if you don't go to a hospital. Sure, it might - but go to the hospital before your leg dies and it won't, and definitely don't not apply that tourniquet out of concern that you might not manage to get the hospital because, you know, you need to keep most of your blood inside your body to have a worry about gangrene at all.

[Broomstick]

On another note. Yesterday Serbia asked for China's help, and so far the first batch has arrived.
Because Google's search algorithm is totally fair, when I typed in China donates medical supply to Serbia and adjusted articles for past week, nothing turns up. With duckduckgo the first one nets this.

I just typed "China donates medical supply to Serbia" and the whole first pages was filled with relevant links (with the exception of one for the Philippines). Um.... why did we get such different results...?

Meanwhile I found out China also donated to Belgium and Spain. I bet you it won't make much mention in US press. Of course the US can't even supply its own masks yet alone help other nations. Same position for the EU.

The US can't supply its own masks because they outsourced production to China. Sucks to be us, I guess.

The US press is currently dominated with telling the notoriously stubborn population to stay home, wash their hands, and the long list of things we're no longer allowed to do - which arguably is a good use of media at this time. There has been mention of Chinese donations of supplies to other nations, but mostly it's been about Jack Ma donating 500,000 testing kits and one million protective masks to the United States, the first of which have already arrived and are being distributed by the CDC (let's hope they don't fuck that up).

Jack Ma seems to be trying to single-handedly stop this pandemic.

[mr friendly guy]

I just typed "China donates medical supply to Serbia" and the whole first pages was filled with relevant links (with the exception of one for the Philippines). Um.... why did we get such different results...?

Did you adjust for the time? Remember Serbia only asked for help yesterday, so I wouldn't expect a Chinese response until today. Did you also check it was relevant links to the question I am trying to ask, ie did China actually donate to Serbia when Serbia asked? I can show you the articles and videos that turn up when I type that without adjusting for time. I will post links from top to bottom if I use the same search criteria you did. See if you have similar links

1 https://reliefweb.int/report/serbia/chi ... ent-serbia (irrelevant since this is from 2014, hence why I adjusted the search parameters for time)

2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-l-h11cF_k (china donates to philippines, ie irrelevant)

3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P42OrsA045M (Serbia ask China for help, which is yesterday but not relevant to what I want, ie China actually donating, not Serbia asking).

4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZKsA2jbwlk (About China and Italy)

5 The next one is Xinhua, which is relevant (so this is already the fifth link before it became relevant, and no xinhua article appeared when I adjusted for time of one week in the search parameters)

6 https://balkaninsight.com/2020/03/16/se ... inas-help/ (again about Serbia asking, not about whether China decided to donate, ie irrelevant)

7 https://www.nationalreview.com/news/cor ... -response/ (again Serbia asking as opposed to China giving, and again irrelevant)

8 http://www.china.org.cn/world/Off_the_W ... 812113.htm (a Serbia and China article from 4 days ago, ie even before Serbia asked for China's help, and irrelevant to my search and the donate part in the article was referring to a donation by someone else)

9 reddit post which references link 5, and so is relevant

10 http://rs.n1info.com/English/NEWS/a5694 ... China.html - this is Serbia sending aid to China during the early days of covid, and its stupid since its the opposite of what I am searching for.

11. https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diploma ... irus-fight
Again another article about Serbia asking for China's help.

Literally 11 links and only 2 of them are useful. The Google algorithm isn't as smart as Google thinks it is.

[Broomstick]

I just typed "China donates medical supply to Serbia" and the whole first pages was filled with relevant links (with the exception of one for the Philippines). Um.... why did we get such different results...?

Did you adjust for the time? Remember Serbia only asked for help yesterday, so I wouldn't expect a Chinese response until today. Did you also check it was relevant links to the question I am trying to ask, ie did China actually donate to Serbia when Serbia asked? I can show you the articles and videos that turn up when I type that without adjusting for time. I will post links from top to bottom if I use the same search criteria you did. See if you have similar links

Excuse me.

You stated that "nothing turned up". Now you're talking about "relevant" links. Nice goalpost moving.

Seriously, both you and TRR are turning this thread into a shit-show like you did the last one. Control yourselves. And wash your hands frequently.

[mr friendly guy]

Excuse me.

You stated that "nothing turned up". Now you're talking about "relevant" links. Nice goalpost moving.

Seriously, both you and TRR are turning this thread into a shit-show like you did the last one. Control yourselves. And wash your hands frequently.

Obviously I meant nothing of relevance. What the hell do you think "nothing turned up" means in the context of searching for specific information? Do you expect nothing to mean a vacuum? As far as strawmen go, this isn't even a very good one.

[Broomstick]

I was going to reply to you but, you know what? I'll let the mods handle your dishonest tactics and goalpost moving. I am really disappointed in you, but obviously you won't care because nothing matters to you more than your agenda so no point in engaging with you.

[TimothyC]

The State Director of Public Health did an end-run around the court and ordered all of the polling places closed for the duration of the emergency.

https://twitter.com/GovMikeDeWine/statu ... 8789306368

Given that we don't know what "the duration" will be, that's rather troubling, and I'm not at all sure its constitutional. We'll see if the courts let that stand, but maybe my concerns about outright cancellation of elections weren't that far off the mark, unfortunately.

Anyone know if Ohio has a mail ballot option?

100% Legal, 100% Constitutional. It wasn't the Governor that did this, it was the Director of Public Health, who will probably get backed by the State Legislature when they finally reconvene. Furthermore, Absentee ballots are still a thing, and will continue to be accepted. The fact that they tried the court case first, and then ORC 3701.13 was invoked is the best symbol that they are not trying to cancel elections but get them pushed back so that other factors will come into play. The public health powers are broad for a reason, and we are getting to live through one of those reasons.

The primary elections are a reflection of how the state will handle the national election. Chicago is trying to figure out how to hold an election despite a pandemic. Ohio is just throwing up their hands and canceling it.

Since we don't know what the situation may be in November I think I prefer governments that are trying to figure out how to make this work despite such circumstances over those not even trying.

Pushing it back to June does buy the State time to get things running, and to have plans in place.

The last week or so has seen a great example of various governors making decisions that then get back-stopped by other governors. For example, Gov. Cuomo in NY made a number of early calls (that Shep noted in the prior thread), which gave cover to Gov. DeWine for the school break order. Said order, then gave other states the cover they needed to do their own, and retroactively gave Gov. Cuomo cover. Similarly, Gov. Pritzker's restaurant/bar closures gave Gov. DeWine the political cover to make the same call, which both back-stopped Illinois, and allowed other states to make the same decision.

I'll also point out that Gov. DeWine is old, at least in terms of Ohio Governors. No other one in history has been 73 at this point in their first term - heck Rhodes was only 72 at the end of his fourth. DeWine has spent all but five of the last 30 years in state-wide elected office, and I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't run for re-election in 2022.

[AniThyng]

To be fair, Mr friendly guy, the search results that come up for "Serbia China" are all about Serbia stating the EU is useless in the crisis and only China can help, so I'm not sure there's any positive benefit to underplaying the help sent article.

[chimericoncogene]

We are getting a lot of imports from Europe and the UK. Perhaps one in every several thousand returnees appears to be turning up positive, consistent with 50k+ cases EU-wide). My neck of the woods has been living with COVID-19 for two months now (2 cases/100k pop), but we don't seem to require mandatory shutdowns or curfews yet (no sustained community transmission, as far as we can tell, thanks to aggressive contact tracing and quarantine), although school has been suspended and nonessentials shut down. This wave might push us over the top.

Oh, and we just found that the wastewater degassing systems in our skyscrapers aren't tall enough to satisfactorily dilute SARS-2. It seems that SARS-2 can survive being shot out into the open air from a one-meter-tall chimney atop a thirty-storey residential block, and beats the odds of dilution to reinfect people in the upper stories of a building. Which is weird and scary, what with hospital negative pressure rooms and pathology labs usually exhausting near-directly into the environment too. Does anyone know whether they have filters on those things?

On a lighter note, the whole system of social distancing reminds me very much of the Countermeasure against the Blight in A Fire Upon the Deep. You freeze all the cases in their homes, they can only infect their family, but everyone's cooped up at home and the economy collapses.

[MKSheppard]

MARYLAND. Gov Larry Hogan postpones the state's April 28 primary to June 2. However, he ordered the CD-7 Special General Election will go forward on April 28 as scheduled, but as an all vote-by-mail election.