The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

[Elheru Aran]

That depends. Is there precedent establishing that the right to freedom of movement is exempt from public safety requirements, or guaranteeing the right to travel into a state specifically by plane, which is all that appears to be subject to quarantine provisions? Are quarantine provisions themselves unconstitutional?

It's certainly going to invoke a bunch of rather interesting court cases down the road if people aren't distracted enough by the current situation to bring it up...

For example, say someone from NY hears that their parent in FL is ailing and decides to fly down to be with them. They are therefore forced to self quarantine for a couple weeks. In that time, their parent dies. They then sue the state of Florida for, I dunno, grief and distress or whatever.

I'd imagine there's precedent on similar circumstances already from the Spanish Flu epidemic. Quarantines aren't particularly new, but we'll see.

Fair enough, but during the Spanish Flu you didn't have travel from NY to Florida in 4 hours or less. I don't know anything about how fast trains went back then but I'd imagine it was at least a good day's trip, if not two, from NYC to say Jacksonville.

We'll see though. It was just the easiest example I could come up with off the top of my head.

[MKSheppard]

Great news:

Liberty University will reopen this week, Jerry Falwell inviting students to return and ordering faculty to come back to work.

[mr friendly guy]

I am sure some people are going to love this one.
From Russia with love

Russia sends Italy coronavirus aid to underline historic ties
Moscow seeks to exploit EU tensions over medical export bans and delays in financial support

The stickers on the fuselage said “From Russia with Love”. The statements from the Kremlin were similarly effusive as Moscow sent nine military planes loaded with medical equipment and specialists to Italy this weekend, as the country battles the worst coronavirus outbreak in Europe.

Under EU sanctions since 2014 and castigated as a dangerous neighbour by many in Brussels, Russia has nevertheless sought to maintain good ties with Italy. It is now seizing an opportunity to underline its close relations with one of the EU’s most important countries amid bickering between member states over export bans on medical equipment and delays to financial support programmes.

Nathalie Tocci, director of the Rome-based Institute of International Affairs think-tank, said Russia — like China — had been able to exploit early “mistakes” in the European response to the coronavirus, including the European Central Bank’s initial perceived reluctance to act and restrictions on the export of vital equipment within the bloc.

“Especially in Italy, that tapped into the Euroscepticism that was ignited by the eurozone crisis and fuelled by the migration crisis,” she said. “There was a feeling of the coronavirus being the third in a sequence which showed a lack of European solidarity.”

“Russia needs a quick win, so it wants to act fast,” she added, pointing out that the European response had now “moved up several gears”. “It does what Russia always does, which is seize low-hanging fruit.”

The article is longer, but the website from financial times is putting up warnings against sharing the whole article, so I cropped most of it.

[madd0ct0r]

EternalFreedom is in the news!

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/t ... spartanntp

A fraught clerk rushes between courtrooms as a bemused defendant sits in the waiting area, wondering if his case is going to be called on.
That was the scene at Cardiff Crown Court on Tuesday morning where more than a dozen cases were listed but the majority were adjourned as the first day of lockdown began.
“No-one knows what’s going on,” said one member of court staff.
The case of two defendants was listed for mention at 10am in Court One. An interpreter waited outside the courtroom, waiting to be told what was happening. The barristers sat in the robing room awaiting further information.
A clerk came out to say a decision had been taken none of the cases listed in that courtroom would go ahead.

[mr friendly guy]

I have been keeping an eye on India's numbers. They haven't made the news aside from saying its under control and having close their borders. But if you graph their numbers, it doesn't look its plateauing at all. Well..breaking news, now they plan to go into lockdown.
https://abcnews.go.com/International/in ... d=69769594

Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced Tuesday that the country would be imposing a "total ban" on Indians venturing outside their homes to combat the spread of coronavirus, in perhaps the largest restriction on the movement of people the world has seen.

Addressing the nation in a televised address, Modi said the strict lockdown was necessary to "save India and every Indian."

"From 12 midnight tonight, the entire country will go under a complete lockdown," he said. "To save India and every Indian, there will be a total ban on venturing out of your homes."

MORE: Simple answers to common questions about coronavirus
The prime minister said the curfew would be enforced for the next 21 days, as health experts had advised this was the most important period to counteract the spread of the coronavirus.

But..but.. its draconian and authoritarian and didn't the Atlantic tell us democracies control pandemics better? Well I guess democratic India proves it can lock down better than China then since the Chinese only locked down around 50 million people, and India just beat that if they can lock down 1.3 billion.

[Nicholas]

That depends. Is there precedent establishing that the right to freedom of movement is exempt from public safety requirements, or guaranteeing the right to travel into a state specifically by plane, which is all that appears to be subject to quarantine provisions? Are quarantine provisions themselves unconstitutional?

It's certainly going to invoke a bunch of rather interesting court cases down the road if people aren't distracted enough by the current situation to bring it up...

For example, say someone from NY hears that their parent in FL is ailing and decides to fly down to be with them. They are therefore forced to self quarantine for a couple weeks. In that time, their parent dies. They then sue the state of Florida for, I dunno, grief and distress or whatever.

I'd imagine there's precedent on similar circumstances already from the Spanish Flu epidemic. Quarantines aren't particularly new, but we'll see.

There are probably precedents but they all date from before the massive change in the treatment of individual rights by the US courts that occurred in the 1960s. The reasoning for all of those precedents is likely directly contradicted by more recent court cases. On the other hand, the government has a clear interest in maintaining public health and controlling plagues. That will certainly trump individual rights in this case. What will be interesting is when Americans start arguing seriously about whether or not it is time to lift the quarantines, that is going to end up before the courts and who gets to make that decision will be the big issue. Will that power rest with the executive bureaucracy (the experts), the people (via their representatives so the Governors and State Legislators), or the courts. Assuming of course that the quarantines don't collapse because the American people just refuse to do as their told.

Nicholas

[madd0ct0r]

I have been keeping an eye on India's numbers. They haven't made the news aside from saying its under control and having close their borders. But if you graph their numbers, it doesn't look its plateauing at all. Well..breaking news, now they plan to go into lockdown.
https://abcnews.go.com/International/in ... d=69769594

Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced Tuesday that the country would be imposing a "total ban" on Indians venturing outside their homes to combat the spread of coronavirus, in perhaps the largest restriction on the movement of people the world has seen.

Addressing the nation in a televised address, Modi said the strict lockdown was necessary to "save India and every Indian."

"From 12 midnight tonight, the entire country will go under a complete lockdown," he said. "To save India and every Indian, there will be a total ban on venturing out of your homes."

MORE: Simple answers to common questions about coronavirus
The prime minister said the curfew would be enforced for the next 21 days, as health experts had advised this was the most important period to counteract the spread of the coronavirus.

But..but.. its draconian and authoritarian and didn't the Atlantic tell us democracies control pandemics better? Well I guess democratic India proves it can lock down better than China then since the Chinese only locked down around 50 million people, and India just beat that if they can lock down 1.3 billion.

Presumably this is also about controlling a big spike in imported cases as people return from Europe or America. Especially as they'd be distributed across a big number of home cities rather than a central outbreak like Wuhan.

Vietnam remains on top of it I think.

[Gandalf]

But..but.. its draconian and authoritarian and didn't the Atlantic tell us democracies control pandemics better? Well I guess democratic India proves it can lock down better than China then since the Chinese only locked down around 50 million people, and India just beat that if they can lock down 1.3 billion.

To quote an article I read not long ago, it seems everyone's becoming a socialist in this pandemic.

[ray245]

But..but.. its draconian and authoritarian and didn't the Atlantic tell us democracies control pandemics better? Well I guess democratic India proves it can lock down better than China then since the Chinese only locked down around 50 million people, and India just beat that if they can lock down 1.3 billion.

To quote an article I read not long ago, it seems everyone's becoming a socialist in this pandemic.

People are starting to remember what's the point of having a government in the first place. Governments are the ultimate insurance people have in a disaster like a pandemic.

[MKSheppard]

Hey Shep, you will love this one.

On another board, someone posted this Italian article from la Repubblica who is a centre left newspaper according to wiki.

.......

This is the second case of shipments from China to Italy being stopped by another EU member. Hmm. Wonder if further repeats of these actions strengthen the calls for Italy to leave the EU.

[MKSheppard]

So I threw these numbers together, and they're worrying.



Left to right axis is Delta in Days since first death.

Top to bottom is deaths that day.

[mr friendly guy]

https://time.com/5806312/coronavirus-treatment-cost/

Total Cost of Her COVID-19 Treatment: $34,927.43

When Danni Askini started feeling chest pain, shortness of breath and a migraine all at once on a Saturday in late February, she called the oncologist who had been treating her lymphoma. Her doctor thought she might be reacting poorly to a new medication, so she sent Askini to a Boston-area emergency room. There, doctors told her it was likely pneumonia and sent her home.

Over the next several days, Askini saw her temperature spike and drop dangerously, and she developed a cough that gurgled because of all the liquid in her lungs. After two more trips to the ER that week, Askini was given a final test on the seventh day of her illness, and once doctors helped manage her flu and pneumonia symptoms, they again sent her home to recover. She waited another three days for a lab to process her test, and at last she had a diagnosis: COVID-19.

A few days later, Askini got the bills for her testing and treatment: $34,927.43. “I was pretty sticker-shocked,” she says. “I personally don’t know anybody who has that kind of money.”

Hey, at least the US are now making it so that the $3000 testing part for COVID 19 is covered. Can you imagine the cost if it wasn't?

[Coop D'etat]

There's hopeful news in the virus appearing to be genetically stable so far. Its a single strand positive sense RNA virus and those tend to have sky high mutation rates and there has legitimate worry that it will mutate to avoid immunity which would both complicate getting successful vaccination as well as opening the possibility of re-infections down the line. As I've been told, the tendency to mutate is the biggest reason there aren't human coronavirus vaccines in general, the extent corona viruses evolve to make it a moving target to hit and thus there isn't the market to produce something that will only protect a certain fraction of colds that will only be good for a year or two.

[Tribble]

Is it possible that even if it mutates to the point where reinfections can happen that those subsequent infections would be less severe, at least when compared to someone with no prior exposure?

[Dominus Atheos]

Well, Dickless just said, in answer to a reporter's question, that they would "open up" America soon, and that it would not be months. Keep in mind that experts expect this to last until Summer at the soonest.

Yeah, America's going to make Italy look like a regular old flu season, at this rate. It makes you wonder if he's deliberately trying to make it bad enough to justify a declaration of martial law and sweeping "emergency powers". Or if he's just doing what Wall Street told him.

The problem is we in North America waited too long. There are now 2 choices 1) open up the country and let the cat out of the bag, however many people die, die. 2) Lock down everything until the virus burns out or runs its course which is projected to take somewhere between 6-18 months. The latter results in a complete destruction of the economy, complete failure of all healthcare & other vital systems as all the previously unknown key nodes in the system are shut down or bankrupted and various critical supplies are exhausted. The death toll from that will likely be worse than letting the virus run its course.

Would you like to see what happens when water treatment fails? Or the power grid goes down and we can't replace the broken transformers because the only mills in the country which rolls the special steel for the transformers is out of business? Or even something simpler like transport fuels. We've just destroyed the demand for gasoline whereas diesel fuel isn't affected as much since vital goods still need to move. When crude oil is refined into diesel & gasoline, it comes out in a certain proportion which can be moved around a bit but not that much. We're eventually going to end up with a large surplus of gasoline and nowhere to store it, at which point the refineries shut down and all transport stops for lack of diesel. Either that or we figure out a way to flare off all the unused gasoline.

Hypothetically it should be possible to get recovered people working again in critical industries when they are presumably immune for a while. That would basically require a command economy through since there is no way even the much vaunted "invisible hand of the free market" could allocate resources that well.

There is absolutely no chance the trump administration could manage it, that's for sure.

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, Dickless just said, in answer to a reporter's question, that they would "open up" America soon, and that it would not be months. Keep in mind that experts expect this to last until Summer at the soonest.

Yeah, America's going to make Italy look like a regular old flu season, at this rate. It makes you wonder if he's deliberately trying to make it bad enough to justify a declaration of martial law and sweeping "emergency powers". Or if he's just doing what Wall Street told him.

You're being far too generous.

Trump is upset because the stock market in going down like water over Niagara Falls and thinks that if he lifts restrictions and orders the serfs Americans back to work the economy will pick up again and he'll get re-elected. He can't comprehend that this is not something he can threaten, bully, or ignore.

I hope the governors tell him to go fuck himself with a cactus if he tries to end the control measures.

Anyone else notice that Dr. Fauci is no longer in the daily White House press conference? Too much fact, not enough fawning.

I'm also worried that he's going to try to pressure Trudeau to reopen the US/Canada border. Trudeau better not fucking cave to that shit.

Trump is urging a return to normal by Easter, and telling people to pack the Churches (we've already had issues with crowds of worshipers gathering to be "healed"). Meanwhile, the Lt. Governor of Texas had this display of pure sociopathy:

https://vanityfair.com/news/2020/03/dan ... andparents

After doing a brief, weeklong impression of a semiresponsible human being, on Monday, Donald Trump got back to the business of being a reckless, anti-science moron, floating the idea that we should end this social-distancing business sooner rather than later in order to “save” the economy from the coronavirus. (We’re using scare quotes here because apparently the president hasn’t considered the fact that if hundreds of thousands or even millions of Americans die, the economy will be in worse shape than it is now.) Following his National Economic Council chairman’s declaration that “we’re gonna have to make some difficult trade-offs,” i.e. we’re going to have to let some people die so the stock market can live, Trump told reporters during an evening press conference that while the death toll is “bad,” and “the numbers are going to increase with time,” we’re “going to be opening our country up for business, because our country was meant to be open.“ That suggestion was obviously horrifying to people who still take the word of health experts over that of a brainless carnival barker and who understand that extreme social distancing needs to last for at least several months if not longer. One person who thought it was downright inspired? Texas Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick, who is of the opinion that old people, i.e. those most at risk, should volunteer to die to save the economy.

https://twitter.com/DanPatrick/status/1 ... 6069959680

Appearing on Fox News, Patrick told Tucker Carlson, “No one reached out to me and said, ‘As a senior citizen, are you willing to take a chance on your survival in exchange for keeping the America that all America loves for your children and grandchildren?’” But if they had? “If that is the exchange, I’m all in,” Patrick said. He continued: “That doesn’t make me noble or brave or anything like that. I just think there are lots of grandparents out there in this country, like me, I have six grandchildren, that what we all care about and what we love more than anything are those children. And I want to live smart and see through this, but I don’t want the whole country to be sacrificed…I’ve talked to hundreds of people, Tucker, and just in the last week, making calls all the time, and everyone says pretty much the same thing. That we can’t lose our whole country, we’re having an economic collapse. I’m also a small businessman, I understand it. And I talk with businesspeople all the time, Tucker. My heart is lifted tonight by what I heard the president say because we can do more than one thing at a time, we can do two things. So my message is let’s get back to work, let’s get back to living. Let’s be smart about it and those of us who are 70-plus, we’ll take care of ourselves. But don’t sacrifice the country, don’t do that, don’t ruin this great America.”

At this point, Tucker Carlson, who, alarmingly, could be our only hope, asked, “So you’re basically saying that this disease could take your life but that’s not the scariest thing to you, there’s something that could be worse than dying?” Put in those terms, Patrick appeared momentarily taken aback but responded, “Yeah.”

Elsewhere in sociopathic responses to the COVID-19 crisis, during last night’s press conference Trump tried a spin on his previous “the flu is so much worse” take, telling reporters, “You look at automobile accidents. Which are far greater than any numbers we’re talking about. That doesn’t mean we’re going to tell everybody no more driving of cars.” He also acknowledged that actual doctors are in disagreement with his proposal to “open up the country for business” in short order, but screw those guys:

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/1242226510716710919

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They're literally saying that old people should die to keep the economy afloat, and trying to sell this as patriotism. Remember all that stuff about death panels killing your grandma? Turns out that, as usual with Republican bullshit, it was projection.

The "Greatest Generation", the ones who survived the Depression and WWII, are being asked to give one more time- to give their lives, not for their country, but for Wall Street.

[Napoleon the Clown]

There's hopeful news in the virus appearing to be genetically stable so far. Its a single strand positive sense RNA virus and those tend to have sky high mutation rates and there has legitimate worry that it will mutate to avoid immunity which would both complicate getting successful vaccination as well as opening the possibility of re-infections down the line. As I've been told, the tendency to mutate is the biggest reason there aren't human coronavirus vaccines in general, the extent corona viruses evolve to make it a moving target to hit and thus there isn't the market to produce something that will only protect a certain fraction of colds that will only be good for a year or two.

The other coronaviruses have either been fairly easy to contain or so mild as to not really be worth developing a vaccine for. Based off what I've been seeing via Twitter (and thus a bit difficult to quickly dig up links), SARS was non-infectious if you're asymptomatic, meaning it was easy to stop it from spreading out of control once we realized what was going on. The coronaviruses that cause a cold are such mild illnesses, and account for such a small segment of the set of symptoms we call a common cold. that it's just not economically viable to develop a vaccine.

Influenza mutates like a fucker, hence new vaccines every year and some years we just don't predict as well as we would like so there's less protective effect than hoped. The early concerns I was seeing surrounding SARS-CoV-2 were that it may have a capacity to evade the immune system. The limited data was suggesting that people might be getting reinfected, though more recent commentary I've seen has suggested that these cases may be largely comprised of people who were still infected and not as recovered as initially believed.

I am personally fully expecting a vaccine to be available... eventually. If we are incredibly lucky, a year from now. If we're pretty lucky, 18 months. There are already some trials going on, but obviously it's a matter of having enough trials and trials of great enough duration followed by ramping up production.

To me, the biggest question right now is how much warm, humid weather will slow this thing down. Right now, I'm not terribly optimistic. It seems to be spreading pretty readily in places that are on the warm and humid end of things. Time will tell, though, I guess.

[Solauren]

I'm also worried that he's going to try to pressure Trudeau to reopen the US/Canada border. Trudeau better not fucking cave to that shit.

Even if Trudeau caved to Trump, opening the border before the Health Canada says the virus is 'controlled' is going to be difficult.

Now that the border is restricted, opening it up again is a health concern, and Border Services employee union (I forget it's name, I'm not sure if they are still part of C.U.P.E. - Canadian Union of Public Employees) is not likely to go with that. If it's one thing a government union will not do, is risk it's members health.

I'm CRA, and I've been on 'stay at home, and stay off the network' since the 16th. Most other non-essential Federal Government services have been under simlar orders since then. As of right now, we are at a very tentative April 6 return 'you can go on the network, we should have the capacity now', but that might be longer.

And that's for branches of the government without interaction with the public. Border Services? Yeah, they'll fight tooth and nail about going back, (and I wouldn't be surprised if that fought to the point of a unsanctioned strike) if they think there is a risk.

[MKSheppard]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/finance/marke ... r-BB11EY3M

Countries are starting to hoard food, threatening global trade
Isis Almeida and Agnieszka de Sousa 1 hr ago

It’s not just grocery shoppers who are hoarding pantry staples. Some governments are moving to secure domestic food supplies during the conoravirus pandemic.

Kazakhstan, one of the world’s biggest shippers of wheat flour, banned exports of that product along with others, including carrots, sugar and potatoes. Serbia has stopped the flow of its sunflower oil and other goods. Russia is leaving the door open to shipment bans and said it’s assessing the situation weekly.

To be perfectly clear, there have been just a handful of moves and no sure signs that much more is on the horizon. Still, what’s been happening has raised a question: Is this the start of a wave of food nationalism that will further disrupt supply chains and trade flows?

“We’re starting to see this happening already -- and all we can see is that the lockdown is going to get worse,” said Tim Benton, research director in emerging risks at think tank Chatham House in London.

Though food supplies are ample, logistical hurdles are making it harder to get products where they need to be as the coronavirus unleashes unprecedented measures, panic buying and the threat of labor crunches.

Consumers across the globe are still loading their pantries -- and the economic fallout from the virus is just starting. The specter of more trade restrictions is stirring memories of how protectionism can often end up causing more harm than good. That adage rings especially true now as the moves would be driven by anxiety and not made in response to crop failures or other supply problems.

As it is, many governments have employed extreme measures, setting curfews and limits on crowds or even on people venturing out for anything but to acquire essentials. That could spill over to food policy, said Ann Berg, an independent consultant and veteran agricultural trader who started her career at Louis Dreyfus Co. in 1974.

“You could see wartime rationing, price controls and domestic stockpiling,” she said.

Some nations are adding to their strategic reserves. China, the biggest rice grower and consumer, pledged to buy more than ever before from its domestic harvest, even though the government already holds massive stockpiles of rice and wheat, enough for one year of consumption.

Key wheat importers including Algeria and Turkey have also issued new tenders, and Morocco said a suspension on wheat-import duties would last through mid-June.

As governments take nationalistic approaches, they risk disrupting an international system that has become increasingly interconnected in recent decades.

Kazakhstan had already stopped exports of other food staples, like buckwheat and onions, before the move this week to cut off wheat-flour shipments. That latest action was a much bigger step, with the potential to affect companies around the world that rely on the supplies to make bread.

For some commodities, a handful of countries, or even fewer, make up the bulk of exportable supplies. Disruptions to those shipments would have major global ramifications. Take, for example, Russia, which has emerged as the world’s top wheat exporter and a key supplier to North Africa.

“If governments are not working collectively and cooperatively to ensure there is a global supply, if they’re just putting their nations first, you can end up in a situation where things get worse,” said Benton of Chatham House.

He warned that frenzied shopping coupled with protectionist policies could eventually lead to higher food prices -- a cycle that could end up perpetuating itself.

“If you’re panic buying on the market for next year’s harvest, then prices will go up, and as prices go up, policy makers will panic more,” he said.

And higher grocery bills can have major ramifications. Bread costs have a long history of kick-starting unrest and political instability. During the food price spikes of 2011 and 2008, there were food riots in more than 30 nations across Africa, Asia and the Middle East.

“Without the food supply, societies just totally break,” Benton said.

Ample supplies have kept prices relatively low since the 2011 spike.

Unlike previous periods of rampant food inflation, global inventories of staple crops like corn, wheat, soybeans and rice are plentiful, said Dan Kowalski, vice president of research at CoBank, a $145 billion lender to the agriculture industry, adding he doesn’t expect “dramatic” gains for prices now.

While the spikes of the last decade were initially caused by climate problems for crops, policies exacerbated the consequences. In 2010, Russia experienced a record heat wave that damaged the wheat crop. The government responded by banning exports to make sure domestic consumers had enough.

The United Nations’ measure of global food prices reached a record high by February 2011.

“Given the problem that we are facing now, it’s not the moment to put these types of policies into place,” said Maximo Torero, chief economist at the UN’s Food and Agriculture Organization. “On the contrary, it’s the moment to cooperate and coordinate.”

Of course, the few bans in place may not last, and signs of a return to normal could prevent countries from taking drastic measures. Once consumers start to see more products on shelves, they may stop hoarding, in turn allowing governments to back off. X5 Retail, Russia’s biggest grocer, said demand for staple foods is starting to stabilize. In the U.S., major stores like Walmart Inc. have cut store hours to allow workers to restock.

In the meantime, some food prices have already started going up because of the spike in buying.

Wheat futures in Chicago, the global benchmark, have climbed more than 6% in March as consumers buy up flour. U.S. wholesale beef has shot up to the highest since 2015, and egg prices are higher.

At the same time, the U.S. dollar is surging against a host of emerging-market currencies. That reduces purchasing power for countries that ship in commodities, which are usually priced in greenbacks.

In the end, whenever there’s a disruption for whatever reason, Berg said, “it’s the least-developed countries with weak currencies that get hurt the most.”

[MKSheppard]

A guy on another forum has been tracking US Deaths for a week or so; I took his data and massaged it for better formatting and added "Deaths per day" columns:



Shit's gonna get real over the weekend as we basically hit first Spain numbers, and then Italy numbers in dead per day, and then by Monday, we'll hit the 1K/day mark.

People will then REALLY panic.

If you've got your preps, you need to balance the need to top off your stocks, versus the fact that asymptomatic carriers are spreading most definitely now.

[Eulogy]

They're literally saying that old people should die to keep the economy afloat, and trying to sell this as patriotism. Remember all that stuff about death panels killing your grandma? Turns out that, as usual with Republican bullshit, it was projection.

The "Greatest Generation", the ones who survived the Depression and WWII, are being asked to give one more time- to give their lives, not for their country, but for Wall Street.

Somehow, I doubt that he'll be all that successful in convincing lots of people to put their loved ones on the altar of unchecked greed. All he really did was show his true colours and piss off just about everybody. No doubt he'll whine about people not being patriotic enough to want to water Wall Street with their blood, but them's the breaks for this treasonous monster.

[aerius]

Even if Trudeau caved to Trump, opening the border before the Health Canada says the virus is 'controlled' is going to be difficult.

Now that the border is restricted, opening it up again is a health concern, and Border Services employee union (I forget it's name, I'm not sure if they are still part of C.U.P.E. - Canadian Union of Public Employees) is not likely to go with that. If it's one thing a government union will not do, is risk it's members health.

CBSA employees are represented by PSAC-CIU, let's just say they're a bunch of useless twats who spend all day circle jerking themselves instead of actually doing their jobs. They'll do jack and shit when it comes to job safety and actually protecting their members in ways that matter. I quit my Customs job over 5 years ago but still have a few contacts there, the guys on the front lines have been screaming about improved screening procedures and restrictions for well over a month but management doesn't give a shit and the union is still twiddling its thumbs with contract negotiations instead of acting on the concerns of its members regarding the current crisis. To say that relations are toxic and morale is shit would be understatement.

If Trump & Trudeau want the border open, it's open.

[mr friendly guy]

You know how the government of Australia has made a reputation over the years of "stopping the boats." All boats except the one carrying 130 people infected with COVID 19 that is.

https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-u ... f8b6ba82e4

Coronavirus: Why Ruby Princess passengers were allowed off infected ship
The blame game over how 130 cruise passengers with coronavirus were able to disembark has continued, with Border Force pointing the finger at NSW.

After the death of a 70-year-old who had been on board the Ruby Princess, the Commissioner of the Australian Border Force Michael Outram has pointed the finger at exactly who is responsible for allowing nearly 2700 passengers to disembark the infected cruise ship last week.

More than 130 people from the ship have since tested positive for coronavirus, among them a woman in her 70s who died in hospital yesterday morning.

During a press conference today, Mr Outram said NSW Health was responsible for allowing passengers to leave the ship on Thursday March 19, 2020, after they were informed some passengers were unwell 24 hours prior to disembarkation.

“New South Wales Health was advised that passengers were isolated with flu-like symptoms,” he said on Wednesday morning.

“On March 18, the Department of Agriculture informed through Ruby Princess that

a risk assessment had been conducted, and that it was low risk.

“They [NSW Health] had given clearance for all passengers to disembark the vessel. That red light has just gone green.”

Mr Outram said because the health department deemed the ship as “low-risk” it was allowed to dock into Sydney’s Circular Quay on March 19.

“As a result of that information, all of the passengers were given a green light to disembark.”

His comments follow NSW Chief Medical Officer Dr Kerry Chant, who insinuated that the cruise line was in fact at fault, saying one of the ship’s crew members most likely spread the virus to the passengers.

“We are particularly concerned that a crew member on board that ship had the disease and then transmitted it to a larger (group),” Dr Chant said.

“There was no recognition that anyone on that ship had COVID-19. The reports of the level of activity and respiratory virus activity on that ship didn’t indicate any pattern of it.”

She said many developed symptoms shortly after disembarking.

“Those passengers have been infected on the ship and no action by NSW Health or otherwise could alter that,” Dr Chant said. “There’s no issue that that could have been prevented by any action.”

Dr Chant said “there was clearly seeding and we are particularly concerned that a crew member on board that ship had the disease and then transmitted it” to a large number of passengers.

Asked whether the crew member had lied to people, she added, “The crew member wouldn’t have known.”

She said New Zealand had actually “undertaken testing for COVID-19 on the ship and there had been no evidence of COVID-19”.

“I want to be clear – those people, those cases we’re reporting now were exposed on the cruise ship,” she said. “There is no action that NSW Health could have taken to stop those cases.”

Asked whether “alarm bells” should have been going off when passengers were being removed from the ship on stretchers, Dr Chant said it was “not unexpected that from time to time cruise ships do disembark passengers” who are unwell.

“I will look at what information was available to them,” she said. “Be assured we are doing a thorough investigation and we’ll release the report publicly but I can’t highlight enough that many people’s symptoms onset occurred on the day of disembarkation and subsequent days.”

NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian said “all of us have to take responsibility” but declined to name the official who allowed the passengers to disembark or say whether anyone would lose their jobs.

Today host Karl Stefanovic slammed the decision to let passengers disembark, labelling the move a “complete disaster”.

“This has been no less than a disaster,” Stefanovic said this morning.

“It’s a complete stuff-up at every single level of management of our borders. I know the Premier was in the paper today blaming Border Force, but it was an unmitigated disaster on every level of government to allow people to disembark that ship.

“You have to get those things right in a crisis like this. Otherwise we see exponentially the numbers go up. We are doing everything we can at home. Everyone is doing their best. Some people who aren’t but the majority are. To let these people go (off the shop) is a disaster.”

HOW DID PASSENGERS LEAVE THE SHIP?

Passengers who have left the ship say they were not told that anyone on board presented any symptoms during the voyage.

Elisa McCafferty, an Australian woman who flew home to London with her husband immediately after disembarking the ship last Thursday, told the BBC nothing was said at anytime about anyone being sick on board.

“It was a distinct lack of information coming through from Princess the entire time,” she said.

“I turned on my phone and I started getting all these notifications from people back in Australia saying ‘there’s been confirmed cases on the Ruby’.

“And I was just absolutely petrified. We had just been on two full flights – what if we had infected someone?”

Another passenger, Bill Beerens who lives in Sydney, tested positive for the virus the day he disembarked.

“I think that they let us down,” Mr Beerens told the ABC.

“I do honestly believe that they [(cruise ship management) knew what was going on and they just wanted us off the boat.”

HOW DID THE ‘DISASTER’ HAPPEN?

After setting off on an 11-day voyage on March 8, the ship was forced to return to Sydney early after a handful of passengers started to feel unwell with respiratory symptoms.

It is understood those who presented with an illness had swabs taken for COVID-19, however other passengers were not informed.

As a result, thousands were allowed to leave the ship on March 19, travelling on board public transport, and onwards to other Australian states and even internationally.

Western Australia Premier Mark McGowan lashed NSW’s handling of the Ruby Princess cruise ship for allowing passengers to disembark in Sydney.

Mr McGowan told reporters on Sunday that while NSW had people coming off ships and able to roam in Sydney, his state managed the docking of MSC Magnifica in to Freemantle quite differently.

“We managed the cruise ship very, very well so quite different to what happened in NSW,” Mr McGowan said.

Passengers claim they were not screened or even asked if they felt unwell before leaving the ship, and those travelling back to international destinations were advised they could need to isolate upon returning home.

Within 24 hours of the ship docking and passengers getting off, the first three cases of COVID-19 were confirmed – two passengers and one crew member.

WHO IS TO BLAME FOR THE DECISION?

While Dr Chant has pushed blame on to the cruise liner, NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian said “all of us (in government) have to take responsibility.”

“Every single agency needs to take responsibility on our borders,” she said today.

In the days after the cruise ship docking, Prime Minister Scott Morrison described the mistake as the responsibility of state officials.

NSW Health Minister Brad Hazzard told reporters on Saturday that “maybe” they should have held all passengers on the ship, however rejected any accusations state officials had not properly checked cruise ships upon entry.

“New South Wales is actually going over and above what the national guidelines are,” Mr Hazzard said.

Deputy Labor Leader Kristina Keneally said the disastrous decision was “gobsmacking”.

“The Prime Minister said he would stop the cruise ships, he did not stop the cruise ships,” she said in Parliament on Wednesday.

“On March 15...Scott Morrison announced to the Australian public [that] the Australian government will ban cruise ships from foreign ports arriving at Australian ports.

“Except there was another cruise ship, the Ruby Princess.

“It is gobsmacked that we are in this circumstance today. The Prime Minister said he would stop the cruise ships, he did not stop the cruise ships.”

Dr Chant said a report would investigate how the ship docked and passengers with COVID-19 symptoms were allowed to disperse into Sydney and beyond.

News.com.au has contacted Carnival Cruises for comment.

[loomer]

Yes, but that boat was mostly the right people. You know. White ones.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Is it possible that even if it mutates to the point where reinfections can happen that those subsequent infections would be less severe, at least when compared to someone with no prior exposure?

It's possible, but immunology can be really complicated, especially with regard to viruses.

For example, look at dengue fever, which is caused by dengue virus, which is a flavivirus, a particular type of single positive-stranded RNA virus (the same type as coronaviruses; both are subtypes of a broad category called riboviruses, but it's anyone's guess how closely related they actually are, because viruses are fucking complicated). Dengue virus has five recognized serotypes, which can be roughly thought of as a different "strain" of the virus (which is what you would be referring to in your scenario, with mutation to the point reinfections happen). With dengue, the relationship between serotypes, and consecutive infections of different combinations of serotypes, can be really weird and isn't terribly well understood. Infamously, depending on exactly which serotype you get first, subsequent infections with certain other serotypes can actually result in WORSE symptoms and health outcomes that if you had gotten the other serotype on its own (or a different combination of serotypes in a different order...). There is also some evidence that a dengue infection of any serotype can then lead to worse outcomes if you get a subsequent infection from DIFFERENT viruses, namely Zika virus and yellow fever virus (though those are both also types of flavivirus ... viruses are fucking complicated).