The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

[ray245]

Much of the West (and the non-West, see Iran) waited too long and lied to themselves and others about how bad it was. Although once it left China, I doubt there was any containing it, unless everyone had agreed to do much stricter lock downs much earlier.

You don't need lockdown as much as to take the threat seriously and early. Complacency, and the notion that it can't get as bad in my country is the reason why the spread went out of control.

Vietnam managed relatively well because they know this kind of threat is serious. Taiwan managed it well because they did the same. You just cannot afford to laugh and comment on how funny things are in other countries when they are in lockdown.

Well gee, some people were less than trusting of the motives of a government that's put hundreds of thousands or millions of minorities in concentration camps. Who'd have thought?

Yes, temporary lockdowns during a pandemic are a good idea. Yes, some places should have enacted them sooner.

No, this is not the grand proof of the superiority of the Chinese dictatorship over the evil West that you're enthusiastically fapping over.

You don't have to trust the Chinese government every word to take a threat seriously. If the CCP are taking the threat of an pandemic seriously, it means the rest of the world need to take it seriously as well.

Your reference point of understanding China is remarkably dangerous, because you creates the notion of western exceptionalism in terms of a pandemic. Any time the west spend over laughing or attacking China for being too draconian in locking down a city is time wasted to save lives. It's not about whether you defend or criticise the CCP. It's about not letting your pre-concieved framework and cultural reference points affects our judgement.

Taiwan sure as hell do not trust the CCP. But they managed to contain it because they used their distrust of the CCP to remarkable effect. Immediate containment of all suspected cases helped Taiwan massively. Taiwan is one of the most liberal and democractic countries in Asia and in the world. They are generally progressive, and dislike the CCP in China. But they did not do what the west did, and being solely preoccupied with the question of whether lockdown for a pandemic infringe human rights.

You can distrust the CCP, but if your distrust of the CCP leds to complacency, then lives will be lost.

[ray245]

How many media outlets actually, literally did that? In the sense that they said "Ignore what the government is saying, it's all a big con by the deep state" or whatever, as opposed to raising the entirely valid question of how that was supposed to be practical without the government implementing a bunch of other stuff? Much of which either hasn't happened at all or been implemented in a half-arsed manner, I might add.

You have a number of Op-Ed talking about how free speech could have benefited China in containing the crisis.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... rus-crisis

Those articles presents free-speech, democracy and a free press as an almost magical solution to stopping an outbreak. Reality has hit us on the head that this is not the case. Free speech didn't stop the virus from spreading at a faster rate in the West than what it is in Wuhan. Doctors can warn people all about the spread but that is not enough to contain it.

Framing lockdown as something that is "draconian" instead of a "desperate measure to save lives" meant a number of Western countries were utterly incapable of imposing a lockdown until the situation becomes dire. The way western media and westerners frame their understanding of China and Asia carries a huge risk of complacency.

It carries the idea that free press, democratic rights by themselves could protect people from a pandemic.


To sum it up, anything that creates a sense of complacency in dealing with a pandemic is dangerous. If belief in the inherent superiority of democracy and freedom of speech leads to complacency, then that can be a problem on its own. Democracy and freedom of speech are tools to deal with societal issues. But no amount of freedom of speech is sufficient to stop a pandemic because all it takes is for hospital administrators, local authorities and etc to downplay any reports, and the pandemic will spread like wildfire.

[ray245]

The West viewed lockdown as draconian. That cultural attitude has cost the lives of thousands of people in the west.

[MKSheppard]

Well this aged really well.

Well these are probably gonna age really well, too.

[ray245]

Well this aged really well.

You can celebrate Chinese New year without much issue. Singapore managed to do so without a massive spike in cases. Taiwan did so as well.

In Europe, cases spiked after the spread in skiing resort in North Italy, while there was no big surge in case in London due to Chinese New Year celebration.

The issue has never been about the Chinese-ness of the virus. It has always been about making sure you have the measures to isolate and trace every suspected cases regardless of where they are coming from.

[Broomstick]

Well... damn

The social worker who runs the Grief/Widows Group I joined after my spouse died, and who offered to be my sounding board for getting through this current situation when I get stressed out, didn't text me back for several days. She just got ahold of me. She didn't reply because her son has the virus, he's at one of the Chicago hospitals, and is being put on a ventilator today.

He's in his early 30's.

This shit just keeps getting closer and closer to home.

The part of my brain easily distracted by details is now wondering if he's counted among the Indiana cases (because that is where he's from) or the Chicago ones (because that is currently where he is).

[MKSheppard]

Military sets up makeshift morgue using tents and refrigeration trucks outside Manhattan's Bellevue hospital in preparation for surge in coronavirus victims as NYC's death toll rises to 192

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... virus.html





Multiple refrigeration trucks were lined up at the makeshift morgue site along 30th Street and the FDR Drive parkway near Bellevue Hospital in Manhattan

[Broomstick]

Yeah, they've got a couple of those trucks outside the Chicago morgue, too. I expect they'll become common before all this is over.

[MKSheppard]

...and brazil's gangs are enforcing the lockdown

‘Attention all residents of Rio das Pedras, Muzema and Tijuquinha! Curfew from 8pm today. Whoever is seen on the street after this time will learn to respect the next one.’

[mr friendly guy]

How many media outlets actually, literally did that? In the sense that they said "Ignore what the government is saying, it's all a big con by the deep state" or whatever, as opposed to raising the entirely valid question of how that was supposed to be practical without the government implementing a bunch of other stuff? Much of which either hasn't happened at all or been implemented in a half-arsed manner, I might add.

Not so much saying that its a con by the deep state, but more that lockdowns is unnecessary, impinges human rights etc. Its like trying to implement universal health care in the US when the media has already spread the message that its socialism.

As to how many said it, lets start with those 4 I posted, NYT, WaPO, Slate, Atlantic, add in the Guardian and an Australian news outlet which is supposedly Australia's most widely read, news.com.au (which is a Murdoch rag so I wouldn't be surprised if other Murdoch outlets had the same view). From my understanding, a lot of American media (minus Fox of course) find their agenda set by the NYT and WaPo, that is,if those two report something, others follow.

I want to use an analogy here. If an anti vaxxer causes people to not vaccinate their kids and they die, are they partially responsible. If Trump promotes chloroquine as a treatment for COVID 19 with not strong evidence, and people die from taking his advice, is he partially responsible? Same logic here.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... rus-crisis

Lets not forget this one from the Atlantic.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... ks/606976/

Democracies Are Better at Fighting Outbreaks
China’s harsh response to the coronavirus has influential admirers, but Western nations recognize that public health fundamentally depends on public trust.

FEBRUARY 24, 2020

Unfortunately for ideologues, the virus doesn't care about ideologies. The funny thing is, despite all the talk from the Atlantic about how lockdowns and what China does is bad, its not any fault (not even a little) that these type of attitudes by the media might make Western leaders reluctant to carry out such a public health measure. The Atlantic in a tweet outright says its China's propaganda that convinces Trump it wasn't a big deal. Because locking down an entire province is the best way to show the coronavirus isn't a big deal.
https://i.redd.it/jlzfvez21no41.jpg

That's just gaslighting its readers.

[loomer]

Aren't you in Indiana?

Yep.

Specifically Lake County. 19 official cases and counting. A week ago we had 1. Small numbers but by now we all know how they go up and up. And everyone knows a lot of cases are missed due to how little testing has been available.

Right now the attention/aid is focused on Chicago, not us. Our local hospitals are getting resupplied with things like gloves and masks by donations from local business or even individuals digging through their DIY supplies. They're getting hand sanitizer from local distilleries switching from beverages to sanitizer. Illinois might manage to get some help from the Feds, and governor Pritzger has made noises about using his personal fortune to help out (he's a billionaire), but that's for Chicago and Illinois, we're in another state and won't get anything of that even if it is literally across the street from us. Our governor Holcomb is most likely going to focus any obtainable aid on Indianapolis, which currently has 226 cases and is the state hotspot. We're the forgotten red-headed step-child of the region and state.

Right. So, the reason I ask is because Indiana has received already received one distribution (and now a second) of supplies from the SNS so far. Once those supplies arrive, it's up to the state health body to distribute them and not the feds. I sympathize with your position as the ass end of the state (Northern NSW says hi. Secession pops up as a social movement every few decades.) but the fault lies with the state rather than the feds now.

[MKSheppard]

How bad is COVID-19 in New York City?

Tonight there are 3,750 people hospitalized in NYC, a 69 percent increase from Monday.

The number of people in the ICU has jumped 60% since Monday and is now at 840.

— Josefa Velásquez (@J__Velasquez) March 26, 2020

[MKSheppard]

Great News! Pornhub Premium is now free!

Social Distancing can be accomplished now, effortlessly!

[loomer]

Grey nomads and their analogues in the States are continuing to travel, the selfish cunts.

[MKSheppard]

https://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2020/03 ... -gun-shops

HARRISBURG, Pa. (AP) — Even as he ordered residents of another county to stay at home, Gov. Tom Wolf on Tuesday quietly allowed gun shops to reopen on a limited basis during the coronavirus pandemic after several justices of the Pennsylvania Supreme Court urged him to do so.

Firearms dealers may now sell their wares by individual appointment during limited hours as long as they comply with social distancing guidelines and take other measures to protect employees and customers from the coronavirus, the governor’s office said.

Wolf’s office did not announce the policy change. It was included on an updated list of businesses that are subject to his order to close their physical locations because they have been deemed “non-life-sustaining.”

Gun rights advocates hailed the decision to allow gun shops to reopen.

“I am extremely pleased that Governor Wolf has acknowledged that he may not eviscerated citizens’ inviolate rights, regardless of any states of emergency that may exist,” said Joshua Prince, who had filed suit on behalf of a gun shop and a would-be gun purchaser.

The Pennsylvania Supreme Court had narrowly dismissed Prince’s suit, which challenged Wolf’s authority to shutter businesses deemed “non-life-sustaining.”

But in a dissenting statement joined by two other justices, Justice David Wecht said Wolf’s order amounted to “an absolute and indefinite prohibition upon the acquisition of firearms by the citizens of this commonwealth — a result in clear tension with the Second Amendment” and the state constitution.

Wecht’s dissent had called on Wolf to make some allowance for the in-person sale of firearms.

“We developed the policy following review of the Supreme Court’s decision,” Wolf’s spokeswoman, Lindsay Kensinger, said Tuesday night.

[bilateralrope]

A cigarette factory has declared itself "essential" and is remaining open despite the New Zealand lockdown. A factory scheduled to close by the end of the year.

Coronavirus: Work continues at cigarette factory through lockdown

A Government MP is calling for clarity after a cigarette factory opened for business on day one of New Zealand's coronavirus lockdown.

Sources have confirmed to Stuff that Imperial Tobacco in Petone, Lower Hutt, is open on Thursday morning on the understanding it is an essential service. It is thought to be working with reduced staffing levels.

At the factory, a short drive from Wellington, two staff could be seen arriving, other workers were in offices, and activity could be seen inside, where many lights were on on Thursday morning – day one of the stage-four lockdown.

The company has been approached for comment but has not yet responded.

Stage-four - the most-extreme of New Zealand's coronavirus alert levels - means only those businesses essential to the provision of life necessities can stay open.

Those must try to minimise contact and have staff work from home if possible.

Hutt-based Labour MP Ginny Andersen said Ministry of Business, Innovation, and Employment (MBIE) needed to confirm whether it was an essential service.

Hutt South National MP Chris Bishop was surprised the factory was open "but there's going to be funny stuff at the margins of all this stuff".

WorkSafe confirmed it had been made aware the business remains open.

"It is up to MBIE to decide whether a business is considered essential or not ... WorkSafe will support essential services that do continue to operate over the coming weeks to ensure they are operating safely in this new environment."

MBIE has released a comprehensive list of what is an essential service. It does not appear to include cigarette factories.

In a statement, it said only businesses essential to the provision of the necessities of life could remain open.

"If a business is unsure whether it provides such products or services, it should shut its premises. Businesses cannot apply to be recognised as an essential service."

Imperial Tobacco in February confirmed the factory would go through a staged shutdown and the plant would be decommissioned by the end of the year with the loss of 122 jobs.

E tū organiser Damon Rongotaua then said the closure of the 100-year-old factory was caused by several factors.

"As a result of health policies designed to reduce smoking including higher excise, there are declining sales and over-capacity both here and in Australia, where some of the product is sold," Rongotaua said.

[Solauren]

Okay, so they are non-essential (and actually harmful) and declared themselves essential?
Go in, arrest the owners, operators, and all staff. Let all the low-level staff go, but anyone in management, hit with a fine = 200% of their yearly salary. Hit the owners with a fine equal 200% of two years sales and value of the plant.

That will shut them down, and send a firm warning to anyone else that tries this shit.

[Batman]

How the hell can they declare 'themselves' essential? I thought that kind of decision was made by the government

[bilateralrope]

How the hell can they declare 'themselves' essential? I thought that kind of decision was made by the government

The government put out guidelines and relied on businesses to interpret them accurately. Leading to some having to guess at if the rules apply to them*. Though this is the only one that didn't rely on some grey area.

*For example, my employer is a security company. Nothing mentioned them specifically in the guidelines, forcing them to have to assume they are essential. I was even given site-specific phrasing to use if questioned by the police on the way to or from work. Until about 30 minutes ago when we got official confirmation that security is considered essential, even if guarding the a property for a non-essential business.

Okay, so they are non-essential (and actually harmful) and declared themselves essential?
Go in, arrest the owners, operators, and all staff. Let all the low-level staff go, but anyone in management, hit with a fine = 200% of their yearly salary. Hit the owners with a fine equal 200% of two years sales and value of the plant.

That will shut them down, and send a firm warning to anyone else that tries this shit.

Forget about fines. The police are threatening 6 months in prison for anyone violating the lockdown.

Oh and the management who made this decision are probably overseas.

[The Romulan Republic]

A group of Republican Senators is now holding up the coronavirus relief bill because they think it will give too much to the poor. Senator Sanders, on the other hand, has said he will block the bill if Republicans insist these changes.

https://axios.com/coronavirus-relief-bi ... 29e40.html

The prospect of the Senate quickly passing the $2 trillion coronavirus relief deal that congressional leaders struck with the White House hit a speed bump Wednesday after a group of Republican senators demanded an amendment related to unemployment insurance.

The state of play: Republican Sens. Lindsey Graham (S.C.), Tim Scott (S.C.), Ben Sasse (Neb.) and Rick Scott (Fla.) said Wednesday that they would object to fast-tracking the bill over a provision that would grant an extra $600 per week in unemployment benefits to low-wage workers who lose their jobs.

The Republican senators argue that because the unemployment benefits would be larger than what low-wage workers usually make, it would incentivize them to get laid off and not return to the workforce.
The amendment they want to introduce would limit unemployment benefits to 100% of a worker's salary.
The other side: Sen. Bernie Sanders later released a statement saying that unless the senators drop their "anti-worker objections," he is prepared to block the legislation in order to impose "strong conditions on the $500 billion corporate welfare fund."

“I am prepared to put a hold on this bill … to make sure that any corporation receiving financial assistance under this legislation does not lay off workers, cut wages or benefits, ship jobs overseas, or pay workers poverty wages," Sanders said.
Sanders told the New York Times that he will vote for the bill as written, but only if the Republicans drop their demands: "I cannot at the last minute allow some right-wing senators try to undermine the needs of workers and think they are going to get away with that.”
The big picture: The stock market lost a ton of steam after news broke of a potential holdup of the aid package.

Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin said at a press briefing Wednesday that he does not believe the provision will create incentives and that most Americans "want to keep their jobs.
He declined to comment on the Republican senators' specific complaints, but said it's his expectation that the bill will be passed by the Senate tonight and by the House tomorrow.

[The Romulan Republic]

Canada to give 2,000 a month to those who lost income due to coronavirus:

https://toronto.citynews.ca/2020/03/25/ ... 2-thousand

Not quite full UBI, since its not permanent and not for everyone, but a good start.

[loomer]

The infection is apparently spreading rapidly and aggressively in Rikers Island. Immediate screening and release is the only way to keep that from turning into a complete clusterfuck, and even then it needed to be done weeks ago.

Oh, and it should go without saying that they should've put a halt to all admissions the moment a case was detected. They didn't.

[mr friendly guy]

Here is an interesting look at the supply lines for tech products with regards to Microsoft, Nvidia and Apple

https://bit-tech.net/news/tech/cpus/mic ... proving/1/

Microsoft and Nvidia explain supply chains are improving
Written by
Jennifer Allen
March 25, 2020 | 15:00


With China's recovery from the Coronavirus pandemic, it seems supply chains are slowly improving too, according to Microsoft and Nvidia.

With the understandable closure of many factories in a bid to stem the spread of COVID-19, various tech companies suffered when it came to supplies of relevant chips and components. In a statement to CNBC yesterday, Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella stated things are improving when it comes to supply, if not demand: 'the supply chains are all coming back. That is not our real issue. I think the bigger issue is what happens in Europe, the United States and other developed markets in the demand side going forward. But we feel good about where we are.'

This is a particularly poignant announcement given - in theory - the Xbox Series X will be launching at the end of this year and there were concerns about whether there would be sufficient supply of components to make this possible. Although, Nadella was also a little cautious about that, pointing out that 'we'll have to check back on it' when asked about hitting launch deadlines. If nothing else, we're guessing if the appetite and finances of consumers isn't there, it would make sense to delay a launch until things are more stable.

Still, it's a promising sign that there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Nvidia's Chief Financial Officer Colette Kress had similarly promising news during a fireside chat explaining that supply chains are due to recover 70-80 percent by the end of the quarter, with the majority of that focused on personal computing. Nvidia explained there's been increased demand for laptops, particularly in China, which is presumably down to the increase in working from home.

China's recent lack of new coronavirus cases has led to loosened restrictions, more shops and restaurants reopening, and life very slowly returning to normal. The growth in technology sales is presumably reflecting that.

The big loser so far? Apple which has suppliers and operations in the US, Italy, Germany, UK, South Korea, and Israel amongst other locations, meaning the firm is being hit from all angles.

Earlier this week, AMD and Intel explained that they still had adequate supplies of CPUs and were keeping on top of things, while also not adjusting their earnings guidance, suggesting a little optimism.

Potentially, the rise of home working could be aiding such efforts, with consumers flocking to purchase new technology. Providing they are able to get it safely delivered, that is.

Long story short, with China back in the game companies which relied on China are doing better than Apple which has supply lines in several countries which are all hit with the coronavirus at the same time (although I believe Israel has come out so far relatively unscathed).

[Broomstick]

Right. So, the reason I ask is because Indiana has received already received one distribution (and now a second) of supplies from the SNS so far.

As of 3 pm yesterday my information was that we had not received more than one shipment. Maybe #2 arrived at 4:30 or something. Since I go back to work today I won't be able to catch today's Indiana news until after work, and then probably only excerpts.

Once those supplies arrive, it's up to the state health body to distribute them and not the feds. I sympathize with your position as the ass end of the state (Northern NSW says hi. Secession pops up as a social movement every few decades.) but the fault lies with the state rather than the feds now.

What "fault" are you seeing here?

With very limited resources it makes sense to practice triage - put those resources will they will benefit the most people. Looking at a map of covid-19 in the state of Indiana that would be Indianapolis and surrounding suburbs because that's where the outbreak is worst and there are the most victims. If pouring all of those resources into that central location can actually reduce the disease burden then arguably yes, they should get all of it because other places either do not have cases yet or have few enough the current medical system in those places can handle the situation. If the situation changes in a week or whatever reevaluate.

Of course emotionally I may have all manner of reactions, but we need to use science and reason to attack this problem, not emotion, not "me first!"

This isn't a matter of one group hogging all the goodies and leaving the rest in the cold. The situation is that there isn't nearly enough to go around. You might be hearing the word "triage", which is a tidy word that means "we're going to have to choose who lives and who dies because it's impossible to save everyone with what we have". That is where we are, or shortly will be.

Sure, I'd like the cavalry to come over the hill to rescue us over here but I live in reality, not fantasy. Indianapolis has 10 times the number of infected than my area, they should get at least 10 times the resources. More than that, if additional resources can reverse the current trends and reduce the burden there so future aid will be freed up for other parts of the state.

So, while I thank you for your expression of sympathy, I understand why my area is not first in line for stuff right now. I can not fault the logic of those decisions even if emotionally I am quite torn up by it.

Still, it remains - the Navajo nation of 360,000 people has received assistance from the Federal government whereas my county of 485,000 people not only has not received any Federal aid, we might never receive any part of Federal aid during this emergency. Your wish for the Navajo to go to the front of the Federal assistance line has been granted. Personally, I'm accepting of that - my area has more of its own resources to help itself, as well as a state government that will also help.

[Broomstick]

Grey nomads and their analogues in the States are continuing to travel, the selfish cunts.

If it's anything like the Mardi Gras infestation that is now causing New Orleans to explode with covid-19 those refusing to stay put in their own homes will be reaping their own rewards within a fortnight.

Mardi Gras in New Orleans went forward as usual. Now the city is being overwhelmed. Chicago Mayor Lightfoot was heavily criticized for cancelling Chicago's annual St. Patrick's day celebrations, but in two weeks people might start (should start) praising her for her foresight. Chicago will still have a wave of infections (already is) but keeping the crowds away on the 17th of March may keep the total of sick and dying down on the 31st.

On another forum, a poster from Rhode Island said that people leaving New York City for their Rhode Island summer homes to "escape" the virus are being greeted by local law enforcement who are informing them that yes, they are going to isolate for two weeks whether they like it or not.

But, yeah, we probably SHOULD close the state borders, in some cases even county borders, to keep people in place until this blows over.