SUPERTHREAD: 2020 United States Elections

[The Romulan Republic]

For the present, I am willing to grit my teeth and wait until the election, and see if Trump can be checked in that way. If he cannot, either because he has conned enough of the American people and suppressed the votes of enough of the rest to win "legitimately", or because he outright rigs the race or refuses to peacefully leave... then I will support a General Strike, as the most disruptive and powerful action that can be taken short of being the aggressors in an armed conflict.

You're still talking in terms of overthrowing the lawful head of state by extralegal means.

To the best of my knowledge there is, in fact, nothing extralegal about a general strike.

If Trump fires on or mass arrests the strikers, well, then he fired the first shots.

If your lot lose in November (assuming the election doesn't get Covided off) then grit your teeth and wait until the next election. The alternative is to declare that you - not Trump, you - are not prepared to abide by the rules, and the current US constitutional framework is therefore null and void. Once that toothpaste is out of the tube you'll have a devil of a job getting it back in, and it won't be Trump who gets the blame for pulling it out.

You think there will be another election if we lose this November. Well, maybe the kind where Dear Leader is the only name on the ballot and he gets 95%.

I am aware of the dangers you describe. Which is why I do not support starting an armed conflict. We would take the blame for that, and rightly so, and we'd likely lose very quickly and completely. But that does not mean that we must simply wait and meekly accept a worsening status quo, forever (or until it becomes too late to do anything about it).

And frankly? The current Constitutional framework is already being routinely disregarded by the sitting President who's legitimacy you feel we must respect. Our sitting meekly and doing nothing while the last few planks are pulled out will not preserve it. No less a venerated figure in American history than Abraham Lincoln made the argument, during the Civil War, that he had to disregard certain portions of the Constitution in order to prevent its complete overthrow, and the courts largely upheld him in that view.

Edit: To put it simply, why is the lawfulness of Trump's Presidency the only portion of the Constitution that you seem to feel must be respected at all costs?

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, Hawaii has postponed to May 22nd. At the same time, fivethirtyeight dropped Bernie's odds of winning it from 50% to 39%. I doubt there's been that big a one-day shift in polls, so I guess they're just assuming Biden will be that much more unassailable and eveyrone will vote for him?

[The Romulan Republic]

Just had a "friend" on Facebook (who's about to become an ex-friend) tell me (amid a string of standard rape apologist talking points) that Biden's accuser shouldn't be believed because she's a Sanders supporter.

So, believe women, unless they support Bernie Sanders. Then I guess they're fair game.

But yeah, we're the misogynist ones.

[Captain Seafort]

To the best of my knowledge there is, in fact, nothing extralegal about a general strike.

I'm pretty sure attempting to overthow the US government is illegal. That's how a general strike with the aim of deposing Trump would be seen, even by those sympathetic to that objective.

If Trump fires on or mass arrests the strikers, well, then he fired the first shots.

The ones who fire the first shots and the ones who get the blame for starting the war are not always synonymous, as I'm sure you're aware.

You think there will be another election if we lose this November. Well, maybe the kind where Dear Leader is the only name on the ballot and he gets 95%.

At which point Trump would, explicitly, be the one who abandoned the current legal framework. Personally, on this particular topic I think you're panicking over nothing - Trump's objectives are to make money and stroke his ego, not turn the US into a dictatorship.

Addendum: Your system of government has survived Andrew Jackson, mass secession, Tricky Dick and god-knows what else. If it can't survive eight years of Donald Trump, frankly it doesn't deserve to.

I am aware of the dangers you describe. Which is why I do not support starting an armed conflict.

"Starting an armed conflict" is far broader than just being the ones to fire the first shots, and I believe your general strike idea would qualify as such if the US government were to respond forcefully to an attempt to overthrow it.

[The Romulan Republic]

To the best of my knowledge there is, in fact, nothing extralegal about a general strike.

I'm pretty sure attempting to overthow the US government is illegal. That's how a general strike with the aim of deposing Trump would be seen, even by those sympathetic to that objective.

Attempting to overthrow it by force would be treason. Attempting to pressure Trump into stepping down by civil disobedience? Some might spin it that way, but there's nothing illegal about striking, nor is there anything illegal about protest, nor is there anything illegal about demanding the President's resignation. I can go online right now and tell the President that I demand he resign- he won't listen, because I'm just one guy with no power, but I can, and its protected under the 1st Amendment.

As to how it would be perceived, that's a PR battle that would have to be fought. No doubt different people would perceive it in different ways.

The ones who fire the first shots and the ones who get the blame for starting the war are not always synonymous, as I'm sure you're aware.

True. But what are the alternatives? Fire the first shots ourselves, or sit meekly and do nothing as the slide toward fascism continues. Because we've tried the courts. We've tried impeachment. We've tried less drastic forms of protest. We're trying the election now. If that fails, what else is there?

At which point Trump would, explicitly, be the one who abandoned the current legal framework. Personally, on this particular topic I think you're panicking over nothing - Trump's objectives are to make money and stroke his ego, not turn the US into a dictatorship.

Which is why he's repeatedly incited violence, repeatedly called for prosecutions for treason of his critics, repeatedly threatened violence if he's removed from office, and repeatedly floated the idea of extending his term limits.

"Starting an armed conflict" is far broader than just being the ones to fire the first shots, and I believe your general strike idea would qualify as such if the US government were to respond forcefully to an attempt to overthrow it.

So you believe that if the people engage in a form of non-violent protest, and then the state fires upon them, the protesters are guilty of starting a war.

Good to know you're firmly in the camp of the fascists.

[The Romulan Republic]

To be blunt, the fucker has made it clear he's willing to feed us to the pandemic by the millions for the sake of Wall Street profits. At this point, removing him from office is self-defense.

[Captain Seafort]

Attempting to overthrow it by force would be treason. Attempting to pressure Trump into stepping down by civil disobedience? Some might spin it that way, but there's nothing illegal about striking, nor is there anything illegal about protest, nor is there anything illegal about demanding the President's resignation.

You're not talking about protests and letters - you're talking about shutting down the whole country. There comes a point where industrial action ceases to be legitimate, and the explicit intent to overthrow the elected government is a long way past that point.

As to how it would be perceived, that's a PR battle that would have to be fought. No doubt different people would perceive it in different ways.

Exactly. You'd get an awful lot of people who would back Trump against an attempt to overthrow him by the means and in the circumstances you're proposing, even if they loathe him and want to see the back of him.

True. But what are the alternatives? Fire the first shots ourselves, or sit meekly and do nothing as the slide toward fascism continues. Because we've tried the courts. We've tried impeachment. We've tried less drastic forms of protest. We're trying the election now. If that fails, what else is there?

As I've said - wait until he either leaves of his own accord in January 2025, or he does something unambiguously illegal, such as staying in past that date. Regardless of your personal opinion, he clearly hasn't done the latter yet.

Which is why he's repeatedly incited violence, repeatedly called for prosecutions for treason of his critics, repeatedly threatened violence if he's removed from office, and repeatedly floated the idea of extending his term limits.

So he's a blow-hard. An internet tough-guy with a megaphone and an oversized ego. This isn't exactly a stunning revelation.

So you believe that if the people engage in a form of non-violent protest, and then the state fires upon them, the protesters are guilty of starting a war.

If that non-violent protest involves shutting down the entire country with the explicit objective of overthrowing the lawful government, yes.

[The Romulan Republic]

You believe that if troops massacre peaceful protesters, the protesters are the aggressors.

That right there tells me everything I ever need to know about your values and character.

[Captain Seafort]

You believe that if troops massacre peaceful protesters, the protesters are the aggressors.

That right there tells me everything I ever need to know about your values and character.

You're the one advocating shutting down the entire country to overthrow the government if the "wrong" bloke wins an election.

[The Romulan Republic]

You believe that if troops massacre peaceful protesters, the protesters are the aggressors.

That right there tells me everything I ever need to know about your values and character.

You're the one advocating shutting down the entire country to overthrow the government if the "wrong" bloke wins an election.

Fuck you. I've taken a long time to get to this point. It isn't something I've done lightly, and its not something I'm doing, as you imply, just because I'm a sore loser.

I'm not saying "shut down the country if the other side wins." I'm saying "shut down the country if its being run by a despotic sociopath who's putting himself above the law."

Now either address that honestly, without the straw men, or go fuck yourself.

[Jub]

You believe that if troops massacre peaceful protesters, the protesters are the aggressors.

That right there tells me everything I ever need to know about your values and character.

You're the one advocating shutting down the entire country to overthrow the government if the "wrong" bloke wins an election.

France does it every couple of years, why shouldn't the US try it?

[Captain Seafort]

Fuck you. I've taken a long time to get to this point. It isn't something I've done lightly, and its not something I'm doing, as you imply, just because I'm a sore loser.

The problem isn't that you're a sore loser, it's that you're overreacting and getting paranoid about what might happen rather than thinking clearly about what is actually happening. The US system has survived far worse than this clown.

I'm not saying "shut down the country if the other side wins." I'm saying "shut down the country if its being run by a despotic sociopath who's putting himself above the law."

If that ever happens, as I said above, that's the point at which action could be justified. At the moment all you've got is, at worst, a thin-skinned egotistical kleptomaniac with a penchant for running his mouth.

[The Romulan Republic]

So the question then is- how long do we wait? If children in cages wasn't the line, if Trump illegally coercing election interference from foreign governments with the sanction of the Senate wasn't the line, if Trump threatening to sacrifice us to COVID-19 for Wall Street's profits isn't the line... what is? How bad does it have to get? You seem to think that we have to wait until Trump has fully succeeded in making himself a dictator. But by then it will be far, far too late, and any resistance will likely be much, much harder and much more costly.

[Captain Seafort]

So the question then is- how long do we wait?

I've already answered that. Go back and read the bloody thread if you can't remember.

[The Romulan Republic]

So the question then is- how long do we wait?

I've already answered that. Go back and read the bloody thread if you can't remember.

It was a rhetorical question.

[LaCroix]

This talk about Trumps approval rating is a moot point.
By September, not only will the death toll and the personal experience of people change their view of him drasticly, but the whole electorate will most likely look very different to what it looks now.

[Mr Bean]

This talk about Trumps approval rating is a moot point.
By September, not only will the death toll and the personal experience of people change their view of him drasticly, but the whole electorate will most likely look very different to what it looks now.

Or they will be dead, the way Republican and Democratic states are handling this is very different and I suspect so will be how things end up. Florida is likely to be a prime test case of this since they should have fully locked down when New York did but still are in open and running mode for the most part. Worse is Georgia and Mississippi who are actively fighting lock downs despite both already having hundreds of cases. They just locked Texas down this week.


More and more states are locking down but for some of the southern states it's going to get bad.

[Ziggy Stardust]

This talk about Trumps approval rating is a moot point.
By September, not only will the death toll and the personal experience of people change their view of him drasticly, but the whole electorate will most likely look very different to what it looks now.

Seems very optimistic to me. There is no evidence that Trump's base is blaming him for anything related to the pandemic. At the beginning of the pandemic, there was a massive gulf in the opinion polls between Democrats and Republicans. In general, Democrats were more likely to be worried about covid and more likely to disapprove of Trump's handling of the situation. Republicans were less likely to be worried, more likely to APPROVE of Trump's handling of the situation. Since then, Republican polls have becoming increasingly worried about the pandemic, but the approval rating of Trump has not faltered. In fact, Trump's approval rating AMONG DEMOCRATS has actually gone UP!

No matter how bad this gets, Trump's base isn't going to pin it on him. They will get to the point where they literally think it is just an act of God (most likely to punish homosexuals or Obama or whatever) and that Trump did his best. There is so far zero evidence that this, or anything else, is going to turn his base on him.

[bilateralrope]

Trump Campaign Threatens Lawsuit Over Political Ad Featuring President Labeling Coronavirus a 'Hoax'

BY ASSOCIATED PRESS MARCH 26, 2020
(WASHINGTON) — President Donald Trump’s reelection campaign is threatening legal action against local TV stations in Florida, Michigan, Minnesota, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin if they don’t pull a Democratic anti-Trump commercial that uses clips of the president talking about the coronavirus outbreak. The campaign says the ad is false.

Priorities USA Action Fund, the Democratic super PAC that created the 30-second spot and supported Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, responded by soliciting financial contributions to keep the ad on the airwaves.

Trump’s campaign said the commercial contains the “false assertion” that Trump called the coronavirus a “hoax.”

The ad strings together audio of recent comments by Trump in which he attempts to minimize the seriousness of the coronavirus outbreak, including a snippet in which he says “this is their new hoax.”

Trump’s campaign said Wednesday that it had delivered “cease and desist” letters to the stations demanding that they pull the ad or face legal action. The stations were not named in a news release announcing the action or in a copy of the letter accessed by a hyperlink included in the emailed release.

Guy Cecil, chairman of Priorities USA, tweeted Wednesday that Trump wants to block the ad “because he doesn’t want Americans to know the truth.” He included a link for donations to pay to keep the ad on the air.

Florida, Michigan, Minnesota, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin are among states where Trump’s is spending heavily in his bid to win a second term.

The ad in question

[loomer]

I don't understand how a general strike would remove Trump from office. Can you explain that?

[Ralin]

I don't understand how a general strike would remove Trump from office. Can you explain that?

It would fuck up the economy and the country in general would be unable to operate properly. Trump wouldn't be able to abide by those things and would be forced to resign because of all the money lost. Obviously.

[loomer]

I don't understand how a general strike would remove Trump from office. Can you explain that?

It would fuck up the economy and the country in general would be unable to operate properly. Trump wouldn't be able to abide by those things and would be forced to resign because of all the money lost. Obviously.

Except if he's a genuine tyrant, he won't resign.

[The Romulan Republic]

Trump will never leaving willingly, in my view. The goal would be more to hobble the country to the point that those around him would feel compelled to force his resignation for their own good.

[The Romulan Republic]

This talk about Trumps approval rating is a moot point.
By September, not only will the death toll and the personal experience of people change their view of him drasticly, but the whole electorate will most likely look very different to what it looks now.

Seems very optimistic to me. There is no evidence that Trump's base is blaming him for anything related to the pandemic. At the beginning of the pandemic, there was a massive gulf in the opinion polls between Democrats and Republicans. In general, Democrats were more likely to be worried about covid and more likely to disapprove of Trump's handling of the situation. Republicans were less likely to be worried, more likely to APPROVE of Trump's handling of the situation. Since then, Republican polls have becoming increasingly worried about the pandemic, but the approval rating of Trump has not faltered. In fact, Trump's approval rating AMONG DEMOCRATS has actually gone UP!

No matter how bad this gets, Trump's base isn't going to pin it on him. They will get to the point where they literally think it is just an act of God (most likely to punish homosexuals or Obama or whatever) and that Trump did his best. There is so far zero evidence that this, or anything else, is going to turn his base on him.

Because its a crisis, so we have to rally 'round the President, and Trump is a Strong Leader Being Strong.

I expect those numbers to start to shift, though, once most Americans have been out of work for a while and/or know someone who's died. Its just pretty horrible that that's what its likely to take.

[loomer]

Trump will never leaving willingly, in my view. The goal would be more to hobble the country to the point that those around him would feel compelled to force his resignation for their own good.

Okay. Is there a constitutional mechanism for forcing a President to step down other than impeachment and the 25th?