The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

[The Romulan Republic]

Honestly, if Trump is (as he appears to be) deliberately sabotaging aid to Blue States, likely resulting in the deaths or thousands of their citizens, then its hard for me to see that as anything but an act of war against those states by the Federal government. This is political murder and state terrorism, plain and simple.

He is the head of state of the United States and this is not the Confederacy.

If you're trying to compare me to the Confederacy, then you can go fuck yourself right now. I attack the President because he's letting his people die for ego and money, not because he says I can't own black people. Say what you want, I think that's a fairly significant difference.

But what would you call it when the President withholds aid from states who's governors don't suck his dick hard enough (something he has publicly suggested he intends to do, so this is not purely speculative)? What would you call it when the President takes acts that will result in the deaths of thousands of his people to punish politicians who criticize him?

He can not commit acts of war against himself that's moronic,

Never said he did. I said that IF he is in fact deliberately witholding aid from blue states, he is waging war against those states (and more importantly, the innocent people who inhabit them). But you say he can't wage war against the states, because he's their President, and he can't wage war against himself? Fine. Don't call it a war. Wars have two sides.

This is a massacre.

nor it is political murder or state terrorism since deaths are not by his hand but by a virus. If you make no move to help a dying man you are not guilty of murder if we applied that standard to anything else then every single politician is a murderer.

Trump is not a random bystander. He is the President of the United States, with a duty toward its people he has consistently ignored. Oh, but he didn't kill them personally. He just made sure the virus would be able to kill them. I guess that means the people who died of disease in the Nazi concentration camps weren't really Holocaust victims. Go tell Anne Frank's family that she wasn't murdered. Guess the millions of Ukrainians who starved under Stalin weren't murdered either. What a relief!

By your standard former President Barack Obama is also guilty because a task force in his administration foresaw the danger wrote a pretty report on it but failed to put in place the needed stock piles of good or establish the necessary frame work.

The thing I detest about you RR is that your never angry enough you must be MORE angry than you are now. The violations of the emoluments clause, the political insider dealing for his friends, the Russian corruption, the perversion of the Justice system, the building of Concentration Camps inside the USA, the whole sale kidnapping of children from migrant parents, the fact we mostly ignore civilians when targeting airstrikes, the brinkmanship. The incompetence of federal response and misappropriation of funds during two Hurricanes now.

I could keep going but again at no point do I feel the need to try INVENT new crimes for President Donald Trump to be guilty off. You know what? I'm good, if he does a new notable thing I'll add that to the list. This aide thing? That's nothing, that's just incompetence and ego, it's not like he's hoarding supplies for his red states that's not how this is working he's just being useless and vindictive.

No, I don't need to make up reasons to hate Trump. A thousandth of what he's done would be enough.

My President is leaving us to die for Wall Street and his ego. But God forbid I'm not measured and civil enough in my response. Because priorities.

I have no doubt, however, that your response to everything I say is coloured by your personal loathing for me. The feeling is mutual. I, for one, have never forgotten or forgiven how you once said that I, quote "look like a child molester" in response to my posts in support of Bernie Sanders during the 2016 election. Something that, had you said it to my face in the real world, would have earned you a defamation suit. Count yourself lucky that you're just some anonymous asshole on the internet, and thus not worth the trouble.

[loomer]

Honestly, if Trump is (as he appears to be) deliberately sabotaging aid to Blue States, likely resulting in the deaths or thousands of their citizens, then its hard for me to see that as anything but an act of war against those states by the Federal government. This is political murder and state terrorism, plain and simple.

He is the head of state of the United States and this is not the Confederacy. He can not commit acts of war against himself that's moronic, nor it is political murder or state terrorism since deaths are not by his hand but by a virus. If you make no move to help a dying man you are not guilty of murder if we applied that standard to anything else then every single politician is a murderer. By your standard former President Barack Obama is also guilty because a task force in his administration foresaw the danger wrote a pretty report on it but failed to put in place the needed stock piles of good or establish the necessary frame work.

You know, I'm not so sure the example of a failure to help a dying man is appropriate without a couple of caveats. Because you're right - you aren't a murderer if you find a dying man in the street and don't help him (you're a cunt, though). But let's say that man is in your care, and you have the authority to sign out the drugs he needs to survive a disease. You deliberately refuse to do so, and he dies. This is a closer analogy for the current situation than the random guy walking down the street who finds a dying man and does nothing.

Well, in most civilized nations - including the US - you can then be liable for a variety of things. You might take a straight murder charge in some because your action - refusing to provide aid when requested while having a duty of care - was reckless as to the possibility of his death. You might take a negligent homicide or manslaughter charge, or a more general negligent abuse one. This is the core difference between a person directing agencies to deliberately withhold supplies from dying people out of spite and a failure to adequately provision them in the first place. One action we might still call negligent, but because it did not directly lead to harm, we do not criminalize. The other has actively, either callously and recklessly or deliberately, lead to harm.

The question is, does the POTUS have an established duty of care towards American citizens and residents?

If you're trying to compare me to the Confederacy, then you can go fuck yourself right now. I attack the President because he's letting his people die for ego and money, not because he says I can't own black people. Say what you want, I think that's a fairly significant difference.

Stop doing this. Read what people write. Bean is not comparing you to the confederacy.

[Ralin]

The question is, does the POTUS have an established duty of care towards American citizens and residents?

If he doesn't then who the hell does? Is the first thought that springs to mind.

[MKSheppard]

Today's GRAEPH:

LINK

[MKSheppard]

COVID-19: mitigating transmission via wastewater plumbing systems

“By its very design, the wastewater plumbing system is a harbinger of pathogenic microorganisms with, under some circumstances, the potential to enable airborne transmission of viruses such as severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), which causes coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19).”

. . .

“We recommend the following steps be taken to ensure that transmission through the wastewater plumbing system is minimised:

(1) do not ignore unexplained foul smells in bathrooms, kitchens, or wash areas;

(2) make sure that all water appliances in bathrooms and kitchens are fitted with a functioning U-bend;

(3) to prevent the loss of the water trap seal within a U-bend, open a tap on all water appliances for at least 5 s twice a day (morning and evening) paying special attention to floor drains in bathrooms and wet rooms;

(4) if the wastewater pipework from an appliance appears to be disconnected or open, seal it immediately (ie, use an elastic rubber glove to cover the end; a plastic bag and some tape will suffice, ensuring the bag has no holes);

(5) if there appears to be any crack or leak in pipework, seal with tape or glue; and

(6) continuously monitor whole system performance (for large or tall buildings).

The potential for a substantial viral load within the wastewater plumbing system (and therefore the main sewer system), in combination with the potential for airborne transmission due to aerosolisation of the virus, calls for wastewater plumbing systems to be considered as a potential transmission pathway for COVID-19.

The interconnectedness of the wastewater plumbing network can facilitate exposure to SARS-CoV-2 within, or even between, buildings. This is of particular concern in high- risk transmission settings such as hospitals and health-care buildings. Following the recommendations set out above will help to minimise the risk of transmission.”

[Ace Pace]

It's yet unclear if waste water treatment will kill the virus or not, at least according to a public DHS document updated to the 25th of March.

[MKSheppard]

It's yet unclear if waste water treatment will kill the virus or not, at least according to a public DHS document updated to the 25th of March.

Related:

https://www.dutchwatersector.com/news/s ... f-covid-19

"Sewage water as indicator for spreading of COVID-19"

"Microbiologists at research institute KWR conducted a series of RNA-analyses at municipal waste water treatment plants (WWTP) in the Netherlands. The analyses showed the presence of RNA gene fragments of the COVID-19 virus in the influent water."

"According to KWR the screening of the COVID-19 virus at municipal waste water plants can be used to signal new outbreaks in advance and play an important role to follow the evolution of the pandemic."

[The Romulan Republic]

Apparently I'm not the only one who thinks Trump's coronavirus response could amount to a declaration of war by the Federal government against the states:

https://cnbc.com/2020/03/28/ny-gov-cuom ... ntine.html

New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo said Saturday he does not believe President Donald Trump has the authority to impose a quarantine on New York, New Jersey and parts of Connecticut, after the president floated the idea as a way to stop the spread of the coronavirus out of the hot-spot region.

Cuomo, in an interview with CNN, said that preventing people from moving in and out of the tri-state would amount to a federally imposed lockdown, which he believes is illegal.

“A lockdown is what they did in Wuhan, China,” Cuomo said. “We’re not in China, and we’re not in Wuhan. I don’t believe it would be legal. I believe it would be illegal.“

Cuomo said he does not believe that Trump intends to impose a sweeping quarantine of the region but suggested he could sue if the administration did follow through.

“I’ve sued the federal government a number of times over the years. I do not believe it’s going to come to that on this,” Cuomo said. “This would be a declaration of war on states, a federal declaration of war.“

Trump, speaking to reporters at the White House Saturday, said he was considering a two-week quarantine of New York and possibly New Jersey as well as parts of Connecticut. The president said a decision could come Saturday.

“I’m thinking about that right now. We might not have to do it, but there’s a possibility that sometime today we’ll do a quarantine,” Trump told reporters at the White House Saturday. “Short-term, two-week on New York, probably New Jersey and certain parts of Connecticut.”

Trump later backed off those remarks and said he decided a quarantine wasn’t necessary after consulting with the White House task force and the governors of the three states. He has asked the Centers for Disease Control to issue a strong travel advisory, which will be administered by the governors in consultation with the federal government.

Governors in the dark
The governors in the tri-state region, however, said they were in the dark about Trump’s possible quarantine. Cuomo said that while he spoke with the president Saturday morning, a quarantine didn’t come up during their discussions. New Jersey Gov. Phil Murphy told reporters on Saturday that Trump did not bring up a possible quarantine when they spoke on Friday.

“Nothing like quarantine came up,” Murphy said. “I literally saw the story as I was walking into this room. I’ve got no more color on it.“

Connecticut Gov. Ned Lamont has said the tri-state governors are already implementing certain quarantine measures. Lamont said he wants to speak “to the president directly about his comments and any further enforcement actions, because confusion leads to panic.”

When NBC News asked White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows what legal authority the administration has to order a quarantine, Meadows replied, “We’re evaluating all the options right now.”

Cuomo went on to say that a quarantine imposed by the federal government on the region would cause an economic shock and could provoke a ripple effect across the country, giving states the green light to close their borders.

“New York is the financial sector. You geographically restrict a state, you would paralyze the financial sector,” Cuomo said. “You think the stock market has gone down -- it would drop like a stone.”

Talk of a possible quarantine comes as New York and the surrounding states have borne the brunt of the infected cases in the U.S. More than 121,000 people have been diagnosed with coronavirus in the United States, and at least 2,000 people have died, according to Johns Hopkins University. New York, New Jersey and Connecticut have become the center of the outbreak in the U.S. New York has more than 52,000 cases and at least 728 deaths; New Jersey has reported more than 11,000 cases and 140 deaths; and Connecticut has confirmed 1,291 cases and 27 deaths.

Question of enforcement
Federal law gives the Secretary of Health and Human Services the authority to take measures to prevent the entry and spread of infectious diseases from foreign countries and between states, according to the Centers for Disease Control.

This authority is delegated to the CDC, which can detain and medically examine people arriving in the United States and traveling between states that are carrying infectious diseases. These measures, however, focus primarily on individuals. Imposing a quarantine on an entire region is more complicated and the law is not as clear.

Robert Chesney, an expert in constitutional and national security law, said the president’s authority depends on the definition of quarantine. Trump does not have the authority to order everyone in New York to stay in their homes, Chesney said, but he likely does have the authority under the Public Health Service Act of 1944 to impose what’s known as a cordon sanitaire, which would prevent people from moving in and out of a region such as New York.

Chesney, a professor at the University of Texas at Austin Law School, said such an order by the president would almost certainly be challenged in court as Cuomo indicated on CNN, but judges would most likely rule in the administration’s favor. The real question is how such an order would be enforced and whether or not Trump would use the military.

“There is a huge question of how they would enforce that if the state didn’t want to cooperate,” Chesney said. “It’s not like there’s a huge number nonmilitary personnel to draw on.”

Well. We've finally reached the point where Blue State governors are openly talking about the Trump Regime waging war against them. At this point, I'm torn between "This is horrible" and "About time they started facing reality", to be honest.

So far Cuomo is (responsibly) only talking about suing Trump if he goes through with it. But the ultimate implications of calling it a declaration of war by the Federal Government are pretty obvious.

[The Romulan Republic]

Note also that Cuomo is far from a radical Leftist, he's not a Bernie supporter or a socialist of any stripe. In fact, other than consistently being one of the most vocally and aggressively anti-Trump governors, he's pretty much the picture of an establishment moderate, albeit a more competent and decisive one than most, or so he appears at any rate.

[loomer]

What do you make of Chesney's position?

[MKSheppard]

Apparently I'm not the only one who thinks Trump's coronavirus response could amount to a declaration of war by the Federal government against the states

Trump will just have the other I-95 states do it for him.

https://twitter.com/BrianEntin/status/1 ... 5333781504

This is what is coming to I-95 in Florida. Checkpoints already set up on I-10 near Alabama. FL Governor says they are enforcing a 14 day quarantine for anyone from NY, Louisiana, or other COVID-19 hot zone states.
Thanks for the pictures
@LindseyGirardi

[MKSheppard]

We've finally reached the point where Blue State governors are openly talking about the Trump Regime waging war against them.

A Democrat Blue State (Rhode Island) with a Democrat Governor has all but declared War on New Yorkers; as I posted before.

Cuomo is now bitching about it.

LINK

New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D) said Saturday that if Rhode Island does not roll back its new policy of stopping vehicles with New York license plates and collecting information about New Yorkers who have entered the Ocean State, he would sue.

“If they uphold that policy, I’m going to sue,” he told CNN on Saturday, adding that the two governors would likely work it out “amicably.”

Rhode Island's governor, Gina Raimondo (D), issued an order Friday enacting new measures to stem the spread of the coronavirus.

The governor's measures allow law enforcement officers to stop cars and collect information about motorists who have New York license plates, according to a report from Bloomberg. The National Guard will be stationed at Rhode Island's airport as well as Amtrak and bus stations to question passengers about their travel plans.

The National Guard will then knock on doors in coastal communities to identify people who've been to New York state to ensure that they are self-quarantining for 14 days.

“Right now we have a pinpointed risk,” Raimondo said, according to Bloomberg. “That risk is called New York City.”

New York has more confirmed cases of the coronavirus than any other state in the U.S. Nearly half of all cases in the country are there, particularly in New York City and the surrounding region.

"I think what they did is wrong. It was reactionary. I think it was illegal, but we'll work it out amicably, I'm sure," Cuomo said. "No state should be using police to prohibit interstate travel in any way."

In the same interview, Cuomo also said that an enforced quarantine for his state and its adjacent neighbors might not be legal after President Trump warned that he's considering a short-term quarantine of "hot spots" in parts of the tri-state area of New York, New Jersey and Connecticut.

"It would be chaos and mayhem," Cuomo said. "It's totally opposite everything he's been saying. I don't think it is plausible. I don't think it is legal."

[The Romulan Republic]

What do you make of Chesney's position?

I'm honestly not sure. I suspect it falls in one of those Constitutional grey areas, but agree there's a good chance the current (Right wing) Supreme Court would rule on Trump's behalf.

The question of who would enforce is very relevant. I expect enforcing it with military troops would potentially run afoul of the Posse Comitatus act, restricting the use of military forces for law enforcement purposes on American soil.

Wikipedia, but here are the main exemptions to the Posse Comitatus Act:

There are a number of situations in which the Act does not apply. These include:

National Guard units, state defense forces, and naval militias[15] while under the authority of the governor of a state. However, only the National Guard can be federalized under 10 U.S.C. § 12406, which shifts control from the state governor to the President, making them subject to the PCA as well.
Federal troops used in accordance to the Insurrection Act, as was the case with the 1st Marine Division and 7th Infantry Division being sent to curtail the 1992 Los Angeles riots.
Under 18 U.S.C. § 831, the Attorney General may request that the Secretary of Defense provide emergency assistance if domestic law enforcement is inadequate to address certain types of threats involving the release of nuclear materials, such as potential use of a nuclear or radiological weapon. Such assistance may be by any personnel under the authority of the Department of Defense, provided such assistance does not adversely affect U.S. military preparedness. The only exemption is the deployment of nuclear materials on the part of the United States Armed Forces.
Support roles under the Joint Special Operations Command.
Provide surveillance, intelligence gathering, observation, and equipment for domestic law enforcement on operations such as drug interdiction and counter-terrorism missions.

[MKSheppard]

link


Rhode Island Air National Guard Tsgt. William Randall, left, and Westerly police officer Howard Mills approach a home while looking for New York license plates in driveways to inform them of self quarantine orders, Saturday, March 28, 2020, in Westerly, R.I.

WESTERLY, RI (AP) — The Rhode Island National Guard started going door to door on Saturday in coastal areas to inform any New Yorkers who may have come to the state that they must self-quarantine for 14 days while Gov. Gina Raimondo expanded the mandatory self-quarantine to anyone visiting the state.

Raimondo also ordered residents to stay at home, with exceptions for getting food, medicines or going to the doctor, and ordered nonessential retail businesses to close Monday until April 13 to help stop the spread of the coronavirus. She also directed realtors and hotel operators to include new requirements that any out-of-state residents must quarantine for 14 days in their purchase agreements.

State Police set up a checkpoint on I-95 in Hope Valley on Friday where drivers with New York license plates must stop and provide contact information and were told to self-quarantine for two weeks, WPRI.com reported.

If New Yorkers don't comply, they face fines and jail time, Raimondo said, adding that that's not the goal.

“I want to be crystal clear about this: If you're coming to Rhode Island from New York you are ordered into quarantine. The reason for that is because more than half of the cases of coronavirus in America are in New York," Raimondo said, adding that it's not meant to be discriminatory.

[The Romulan Republic]

We've finally reached the point where Blue State governors are openly talking about the Trump Regime waging war against them.

A Democrat Blue State (Rhode Island) with a Democrat Governor has all but declared War on New Yorkers; as I posted before.

Cuomo is contesting this in court too, and we'll see where it goes. But IIRC there are legal distinctions between a state government enacting a quarantine, and the Federal government doing it.

[MKSheppard]

A member of the Rhode Island National Guard Military Police directs motorists with New York license plates at a checkpoint on I-95 over the border with Connecticut where New Yorkers must pull over and provide contact information and are told to self-quarantine for two weeks




A Rhode Island National Guard Military Police officer directs motorists with New York license plates at a checkpoint in Hope Valley, Rhode Island, on Saturday




Rhode Island Air National Guard Sgt William Randall walks through the Watch Hill neighborhood looking for New York residents to inform them of self quarantine orders Saturday

[The Romulan Republic]

Just going to ignore my last post and keep up the pic spam, I see.

Yeah yeah, I get your point. A blue state did it, so that means its okay for Trump to do it! Both Sides!

Congrats, you've figured out how Whataboutism works. Good for you.

[mr friendly guy]

I think Shep's point is, that Blue state governors aren't quite as united as your original statement implies. The statement in question is "We've finally reached the point where Blue State governors are openly talking about the Trump Regime waging war against them."

I am not trying to attack you here this time. Just trying to point out what I think is a misunderstanding.

[madd0ct0r]

Today's GRAEPH:

LINK

uh, I'm not certain on this, but I don't think comparing cities to NYC and New Orleans to entire countries like Spain or continent sized places China or USE on a per million pop basis is going to do much more than give you a heart attack.
The chinese data in the same graph shows the effect - the disease is assumed to be centered in the dense city and the hosptials there. The tighter you draw a circle around that, the spikier the graph gets. The circle drawn is arbitary on a a widely spread communting popualtion. As a big city with the best hosptials, cases found 50 miles away might be shipped to NYC for treatment, but showup in your spike. Its not a meaningful result.

'Deaths per day' probably is meaningful, because it automatically takes into account pop density and network effects, as virus works it way through group A and spreads to B and C and then onto D E F G ect. Deaths is certainly easier to track than cases but might miss a big chunk of deaths that are someone very ill being tipped over the edge and registered as dying of that co-morbidity, or someone having something completely unrelated (like a gun shot wound) but dying cos no ventilators avaiable. Its still a pretty robust measure, short of recording 'hospital busyness' or something

[The Romulan Republic]

I think Shep's point is, that Blue state governors aren't quite as united as your original statement implies. The statement in question is "We've finally reached the point where Blue State governors are openly talking about the Trump Regime waging war against them."

I am not trying to attack you here this time. Just trying to point out what I think is a misunderstanding.

My comment was not meant to imply that all Blue State governors share a united view on this subject. Merely that some of the Blue State governors (namely Cuomo) are taking this position. Like how I might say "people are hoarding toilet paper", and it doesn't mean I'm claiming that literally every single person is hoarding toilet paper.

[mr friendly guy]

I think Shep's point is, that Blue state governors aren't quite as united as your original statement implies. The statement in question is "We've finally reached the point where Blue State governors are openly talking about the Trump Regime waging war against them."

I am not trying to attack you here this time. Just trying to point out what I think is a misunderstanding.

My comment was not meant to imply that all Blue State governors share a united view on this subject. Merely that some of the Blue State governors (namely Cuomo) are taking this position. Like how I might say "people are hoarding toilet paper", and it doesn't mean I'm claiming that literally every single person is hoarding toilet paper.

Fair enough. My bad.

[Zaune]

So, when Trump bends to pressure from actual human beings to send bits of the national stockpile to the pandemic hotspots even when he doesn't like the governor or the voters he sends broken ventilators

[...]

Well, at least California got fixable busted shit. Some states like Michigan haven't gotten anything... I'm sure that will be rectified by the next shipment of busted vital equipment to a state Trump doesn't like will be beyond repair.

This is how insurgencies start.

[ray245]

I think it's only a matter of time before they have to close down NYC, because people fleeing to more rural areas or other states isn't helping the situation. All it does is overburdening and overstretching the abilities of more rural hospitals to handle the increased number of cases.

[The Romulan Republic]

I think it's only a matter of time before they have to close down NYC, because people fleeing to more rural areas or other states isn't helping the situation. All it does is overburdening and overstretching the abilities of more rural hospitals to handle the increased number of cases.

Well, there's already a shelter in place order in New York IIRC. Presumably that can be enforced by the NYPD and, if need be, the New York National Guard, without Trump engaging in constitutionally-dubious restrictions on movement between states or possible violations of Posse Comitatus.

[ray245]

Well, there's already a shelter in place order in New York IIRC. Presumably that can be enforced by the NYPD and, if need be, the New York National Guard, without Trump engaging in constitutionally-dubious restrictions on movement between states or possible violations of Posse Comitatus.

Shelter in place can't stop people from travelling to their country homes and etc.