Hungarian democracy dies with thunderous applause

[aerius]

Correct. My question is general, not focused on this seizure of emergency power. How do you design a system to prevent people like Orban from chipping away at democracy without creating more tools for them to use?

Ultimately it comes down to the people. You can put all the checks & balances you want in the system but it's really not going to do much if the people are apathetic or easily swayed by propaganda sanctioned news releases. If there's a power structure of any sort, its natural tendency is to find ways to secure more power for itself.

So the problem becomes how do we educate everyone on the proper workings of the government systems and keep them engaged in such a way that everyone stays relatively honest. I don't even know where to start. If I had an answer for that I'd be leading a revolution right now.

[The Romulan Republic]

You know, I don't say this often, God knows, but aerius is right. Guidelines matter, but they matter for the purpose of setting a framework so people know what the rules are, what to expect, and what their obligations are. Ultimately the people have to live up to that. As we've seen in the US in the impeachment trial, or in so many dubious court rulings, all the laws in the world don't mean a damn if there isn't the will to uphold them, and since it is only rarely that the powerful will act against their short-term self-interest, that will generally has to come from the bottom up.

Of course, this only strengthens the argument for democracy, because when you get down to it, democracy is simply codifying and formalizing a basic truth of politics, one of the few arguably universal truths there are: no system can function if the people don't want it to. For any system to work, it needs at least the active support of a large minority, and the tolerance of a large majority. Otherwise, it breaks down. This is true even in a dictatorship: if half the country decides to walk off the job and stay off, the dictator's in trouble, because the country will start shutting down. And if it gets bad enough his soldiers start mutinying, he's really fucked. The difference between a democratic and non-democratic system, functionally, is that democracy provides a mechanism for the people to express their grievances, and for the peaceful transfer of power to occur, without mass chaos or bloodshed- which for those in power has the advantage of lowering the stakes, meaning that not every political battle has to be to the death. But again, it only works if most of the people are willing to play by the rules most of the time, and to uphold those rules against those who try to break them.

Edit: As to how to get the people to uphold democratic values... well, I'd say a start might be widespread public education in history and critical thinking, and access to information (though that can go astray due to the prevelence of bullshit). Encourage people to travel and get outside of their echo chamber (I'd be up for a national program requiring all youth to study, volunteer, or work abroad for a year, at the state's expense). Also greater economic security, as it is harder for people to be politically informed and active, and easier to get them to go behind a strong man offering them scapegoats and simple solutions, if they're worried about where their next meal is coming from.

[His Divine Shadow]

Well as long as Mr. Orban doesn't run too large and sustained a budget deficit I think he's in the clear from the EU. Even then he gets some leeway because he is not in the eurozone.

[aerius]

You know, I don't say this often, God knows, but aerius is right.

Once you let go of your hate and learn to use that spongy blob of jello between your ears, you'll realize that I'm usually right.

[LaCroix]

Right now, he has taken emergency powers for the duration of a crisis. Lot's of governments have done that, the US and UK included.

Until he starts abusing those, there is no need to intervene. For now, we watch closely.

[Tribble]

Right now, he has taken emergency powers for the duration of a crisis. Lot's of governments have done that, the US and UK included.

Until he starts abusing those, there is no need to intervene. For now, we watch closely.

Well at least we know what his priorities are:

Thurs April 2 2020
Hungary seeks to end legal recognition of trans people amid Covid-19 crisis
Draft bill comes as people are distracted by Viktor Orbán’s new powers to rule by decree

A draft law proposed by the Hungarian government would end legal gender recognition for transgender people.
The bill, submitted on Tuesday as attention was focused on the introduction of a controversial set of measures ostensibly aimed at fighting coronavirus, stipulates that gender should be defined as “biological sex based on primary sex characteristics and chromosomes”.
It would record people’s “sex at birth” in the Hungarian civil registry and thus make it impossible to change anyone’s legally recognised gender.

On Monday, the Hungarian parliament passed a law that allows the prime minister, Viktor Orbán, to rule by decree for as long as the coronavirus crisis is deemed to be continuing. It also mandates jail time for intentionally spreading disinformation that hampers the coronavirus response, measures that were roundly criticised by the opposition at home and politicians abroad.
The gender regulation, part of a larger bill on a number of issues not related to coronavirus, will still be considered by parliament in the normal way.
It shows that even as Orbán requested special measures for fighting coronavirus, his government had not forgotten its other battles. Trans rights and so-called “gender ideology” are frequent bugbears of alt-right and conservative politicians, and Orbán’s government has previously introduced a measure that in effect banned universities from teaching gender studies.

Trans people have had trouble legally changing their documents since 2018, Reuters reported, a situation that is currently subject to several legal challenges. The proposed bill would enshrine this denial of changes in law.

The Council of Europe’s commissioner for human rights, Dunja Mijatović, called on Hungary’s parliament not to adopt the law, and said the measure was in contravention of human rights standards and the case law of the European court of human rights.
“Transgender persons have the right to legal recognition of their gender based on self-determination. This is an essential step to ensure respect for their human rights in all areas of life. Legal gender recognition is a matter of human dignity,” she said in a statement on Thursday.
At home, human rights activists also criticised the bill. “It is appalling that the government plans to ban legal gender recognition in the shadow of the coronavirus crisis,” Tamás Dombos, a board member of the Hungarian LGBT Alliance, told Agence France-Presse.
“Such a measure would force trans people to live with documents that do not match their true identity and their appearance ... That exposes them to potential discrimination in employment, housing, access to goods and services, and official procedures,” he said.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... -19-crisis

[The Romulan Republic]

Yup, they're using this disaster to ram through all the authoritarian and bigoted policies they've wanted all along.

[Gandalf]

Yup, they're using this disaster to ram through all the authoritarian and bigoted policies they've wanted all along.

It's 11 September for a whole new political generation.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yup. These motherfuckers have never seen a tragedy they won't exploit.

[Starglider]

Orban is illustrating that the EU has always been a paper tiger with very little power to enforce its edicts; it can't even cut off the billions of euros of net receipts Hungry is successfully draining out of the EU budget. This in turn illustrates the basic folly of Brexit; there was nothing stopping the UK from ignoring all EU laws that proved inconvenient, indefinitely delaying contributions with a stream of nonsense legalese, and generally cherry picking benefits and avoiding costs. The EU doesn't deserve 'honorable' or 'fair' behaviour, it deserves to be exploited, sabotaged and mocked. The UK managed this to some small extent but only by playing within the 'rules'. Hungary is showing the correct way to do this: ignore the rules, and get away with it. Brexit is a far more costly and less effective way to fight the EU.

Although I am obviously not a fan of government oppression, old-school nationalist authoritarianism is the natural consequence of the neoliberal globalist authoritarianism the EU has been pushing for the last three decades. Endlessly condescending and generally horrible liberals trying to destroy your culture, livelihood, national pride, lecturing you on how you are primitive and backward and must fawn over the edicts of your betters (be they political edicts from Brusells, economic edicts from Frankfurt or the constant sneering thought-leader demands to 'cancel' local traditions and attitudes)? This was the only viable way to fight back.

[The Romulan Republic]

And here comes this board's fascism cheerleader brigade.

[J]

And here comes this board's fascism cheerleader brigade.

Would you like to refute any of his points?

As an aside, when members with very different political, social, and economic viewpoints such as Starglider, Stas, Crown, HDS, and myself all agree that the EU is a fundamentally broken and morally bankrupt institution, you might want to ask yourself why.

[Tribble]

Orban is illustrating that the EU has always been a paper tiger with very little power to enforce its edicts; it can't even cut off the billions of euros of net receipts Hungry is successfully draining out of the EU budget. This in turn illustrates the basic folly of Brexit; there was nothing stopping the UK from ignoring all EU laws that proved inconvenient, indefinitely delaying contributions with a stream of nonsense legalese, and generally cherry picking benefits and avoiding costs. The EU doesn't deserve 'honorable' or 'fair' behaviour, it deserves to be exploited, sabotaged and mocked. The UK managed this to some small extent but only by playing within the 'rules'. Hungary is showing the correct way to do this: ignore the rules, and get away with it. Brexit is a far more costly and less effective way to fight the EU.

Agreed, though I doubt the EU bureaucracy / political leadership actually cares, apart from a public relations standpoint.

As an aside, when members with very different political, social, and economic viewpoints such as Starglider, Stas, Crown, HDS, and myself all agree that the EU is a fundamentally broken and morally bankrupt institution, you might want to ask yourself why.

Don't forget to include me on the list; I've been arguing with Thanas for quite awhile over the EU's inherent political / economic instabilities. Shame he hasn't been around lately

[mr friendly guy]

Funny thing is, after looking into right wingers such as Douglas Murray and even anti establishment left wingers, I can see where Starglider is coming from when he complains against the Neoliberal agenda, at least on the economic front. I can even understand when he talks about it in terms of "cultural traditions," although I suspect what applies in Europe has less relevance in countries which had lots of migration such as Canada/USA/Australia etc. But yeah, I can see where he is coming from.

[Starglider]

And here comes this board's fascism cheerleader brigade.

As a walking stereotype you are the perfect proxy for hypocritical condescending big-state-obssessed liberals in general and as such I am happy to say, this is your fault. You did this. You are completely happy with unlimited state power as long as it is pushing (at least some) policies you like, comes from the most bloated, least accountable beurecracy possible, and is cloaked in the right platitudes about human rights. Of course, you agree with the right-wing that some humans are much more equal than others; the ones with the right beliefs, who retweet the right mantras, the manufactured identity groups that form the basis of your fracticous imagined voter coaltion, who you promise will be 'centered' and given 'reparations' and unlimited license to smear, terrorise and oppress their rivals ('TERFs', 'fascists' or whatever). The real disagreements are just who the in-group is, and whether the oppression should be mass-produced on a continental scale or bespoke to the local nation/culture. Actually put like that the latter does seem preferable, at least there's more variety.

If you dropped all the personal screeching horribleness, fever dreams about mudering the rich/Republicans/TERFs/whatever, and pointless divisive shit-stiring, perhaps the relatively sensible democratic-socialist policy ideas could be taken more seriously.

[Tribble]

IMO the problems with the EU are pretty straightforward. Crazy as Margaret Thatcher was she was quite correct in pointing out the main flaw of the EU project: Europe isn't a country, not even a federalised one.

At present the EU far too big in terms of membership and far too small in terms of the economic / government / power structure needed to operate effectively.

What they have is in essence similar to the Articles of Confederation, though to their credit the American founding fathers pretty quickly realised that wasn't going to work. And they also realised that a gradual consolidation wasn't going to work either, unlike the EU's attempt via its "ever closer union" mantra.

Throw in the different cultures / economies and general undemocratic nature of the whole thing and it's not hard to see why it's inherently unstable.

[mr friendly guy]

IMO the problems with the EU are pretty straightforward. Crazy as Margaret Thatcher was she was quite correct in pointing out the main flaw of the EU project: Europe isn't a country, not even a federalised one.

At present the EU far too big in terms of membership and far too small in terms of the economic / government / power structure needed to operate effectively.

What they have is in essence similar to the Articles of Confederation, though to their credit the American founding fathers pretty quickly realised that wasn't going to work. And they also realised that a gradual consolidation wasn't going to work either, unlike the EU's attempt via its "ever closer union" mantra.

Throw in the different cultures / economies and general undemocratic nature of the whole thing and it's not hard to see why it's inherently unstable.

Not to mention the problem with each country having vastly different economies and credit rating. One of the contributors to the Eurozone crisis was banks lending at rates they would normally reserve for economically sound Germany to countries like the PIGS which weren't quite as sound, simply because they used the same currency.

[His Divine Shadow]

Of course calling Germany economically sound is a bit unfair since it was primarily the german banks who fucked up with predatory lending practices and had their necks on the line if greece defaulted, that was the real reasn the greek crisis even got any attention at all. The germans have done worse on that front than the wall street financiers.

[His Divine Shadow]

Another interesting thing when we're talking about the southern PIIGS and their spendy ways, did you know that Italy loses 19% of it's corporate tax income to the Netherlands, one of the tax paradises that is allowed to fester inside the EU? And people wonder the EU is having problems when it' a corrupt neolib right wing institution set up for the 1%.

[J]

Of course calling Germany economically sound is a bit unfair since it was primarily the german banks who fucked up with predatory lending practices and had their necks on the line if greece defaulted, that was the real reasn the greek crisis even got any attention at all. The germans have done worse on that front than the wall street financiers.

Wall Street: Hold my beer, we're just getting started!

[MarxII]

Although I am obviously not a fan of government oppression, old-school nationalist authoritarianism is the natural consequence of the neoliberal globalist authoritarianism the EU has been pushing for the last three decades. Endlessly condescending and generally horrible liberals trying to destroy your culture, livelihood, national pride, lecturing you on how you are primitive and backward and must fawn over the edicts of your betters (be they political edicts from Brusells, economic edicts from Frankfurt or the constant sneering thought-leader demands to 'cancel' local traditions and attitudes)? This was the only viable way to fight back.

The tone and overall context here gives me what I think is some clue as to your meaning, but I am curious what in particular you're referring to, most especially with the cancellation of local traditions and attitudes.

[The Romulan Republic]

And here comes this board's fascism cheerleader brigade.

Would you like to refute any of his points?

As an aside, when members with very different political, social, and economic viewpoints such as Starglider, Stas, Crown, HDS, and myself all agree that the EU is a fundamentally broken and morally bankrupt institution, you might want to ask yourself why.

Its not his opposition to the EU, in and of itself*- its the fact that he is cheerleading Orban (a racist, xenophobic, transphobic authoritarian) and his methods in opposing it.



*That said, most opposition to the EU does seem to come from the Far Right. My personal views of the EU are that it is deeply flawed, but that the underlying concept of a more unified Europe is a good one, and I would prefer to see its flaws reformed rather than the institution dissolved and a return to the Europe of divided nation states which preceded it, which gave the world two world wars and the Cold War in less than half a century.

[ray245]

*That said, most opposition to the EU does seem to come from the Far Right. My personal views of the EU are that it is deeply flawed, but that the underlying concept of a more unified Europe is a good one, and I would prefer to see its flaws reformed rather than the institution dissolved and a return to the Europe of divided nation states which preceded it, which gave the world two world wars and the Cold War in less than half a century.

There IS significant resistance to the EU from the left. Jeremy Corbyn is not an isolated case of a left-wing leader being against the EU. Many of the formerly labour seats lost to the Tories are areas that have always been left-wing as well.

The urban, metropolitan left-wing tends to be in favour of the EU, but the more rural or de-industrialised left-wingers have a tendency to be against the EU.

[The Romulan Republic]

*That said, most opposition to the EU does seem to come from the Far Right. My personal views of the EU are that it is deeply flawed, but that the underlying concept of a more unified Europe is a good one, and I would prefer to see its flaws reformed rather than the institution dissolved and a return to the Europe of divided nation states which preceded it, which gave the world two world wars and the Cold War in less than half a century.

There IS significant resistance to the EU from the left. Jeremy Corbyn is not an isolated case of a left-wing leader being against the EU. Many of the formerly labour seats lost to the Tories are areas that have always been left-wing as well.

The urban, metropolitan left-wing tends to be in favour of the EU, but the more rural or de-industrialised left-wingers have a tendency to be against the EU.

Yeah, I know. The tendency toward isolationism and destroying globalism in some portions of the Left is probably our biggest weakness, as its one of the most effective tools the Right has to divide and conquer us, and to coopt portions of the Left in their nationalist, xenophobic agenda (see Leftists backing Brexit, Bernie or Busters and the US Greens helping Trump and defending him on stuff like Russian collusion).

What we really should be doing is not promoting xenophobic isolationism and destruction of the status quo at any price (even if it means crawling into bed with fascists). We should be promoting an alternative vision of global unity, in the form of a global socialist movement to oppose global capitalism.

[ray245]

Yeah, I know. The tendency toward isolationism and destroying globalism in some portions of the Left is probably our biggest weakness, as its one of the most effective tools the Right has to divide and conquer us, and to coopt portions of the Left in their nationalist, xenophobic agenda (see Leftists backing Brexit, Bernie or Busters and the US Greens helping Trump and defending him on stuff like Russian collusion).

What we really should be doing is not promoting xenophobic isolationism and destruction of the status quo at any price (even if it means crawling into bed with fascists). We should be promoting an alternative vision of global unity, in the form of a global socialist movement to oppose global capitalism.

It's easy to talk about it, but many humans need to see some form of physical interaction for xenophobia to subside, or for people to be more eager to embrace any form of globalism ( socialistic or capitalistic).