Trump threatens to adjourn Congress.

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Trump threatens to adjourn Congress.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

And apparently he may have the power to do it:

https://washingtonpost.com/politics/tru ... story.html
President Trump threatened to shut down both chambers of Congress to allow him to fill vacancies in his administration without Senate approval.

He spent several minutes of his daily coronavirus briefing Wednesday blaming Senate Democrats for blocking his nominations, even though most of the vacancies in the federal government are because Trump hasn’t selected anyone to fill them. Several of his nominees haven’t been given a confirmation hearing yet in the Republican-led Senate.

Trump cited a never-exercised power the Constitution grants the president to adjourn Congress if leaders of the House and Senate can’t agree on whether to adjourn. The Senate often recesses but stays open in a “pro forma” session, which thwarts Trump’s ability to make recess appointments that bypass the regular confirmation process.

“The current practice of leaving town while conducting phony pro forma sessions is a dereliction of duty that the American people cannot afford during this crisis. It is a scam. What they do, it’s a scam and everybody knows it,” Trump said.

Trump’s gambit assumes Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) would go along with adjourning and even then it would still be nearly impossible to get the votes needed to formally adjourn.

McConnell’s office declined to comment. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), Senate Minority Leader Charles E. Schumer (D-N.Y.) and House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) did not respond.

“They know they’ve been warned and they’ve been warned right now. If they don’t approve it, then we’re going to go this route and we’ll probably be challenged in court and we’ll see who wins,” Trump said when asked if there’s a timeline on his threat.
If he does this, its as unequivocal a declaration of dictatorship as we can get, short of a coronation. If this happens, fuck the election and fuck shelter in place orders, its time to take to the streets.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

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Re: Trump threatens to adjourn Congress.

Post by Mr Bean »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2020-04-15 07:49pm
If he does this, its as unequivocal a declaration of dictatorship as we can get, short of a coronation. If this happens, fuck the election and fuck shelter in place orders, its time to take to the streets.
RR have you seriously never heard of a Recess appointment?
Senate.org
Senate.org wrote:Under the Constitution (Article II, §2, clause 2), the President and the Senate share the power to make appointments to high-level policy-making positions in federal departments, agencies, boards, and commissions. Generally, the President nominates individuals to these positions, and the Senate must confirm them before he can appoint them to office. The Constitution also provides an exception to this process. When the Senate is in recess, the President may make a temporary appointment, called a recess appointment, to any such position without Senate approval (Article II, §2, clause 3).
The history tab on Wikipedia on Recces appointment has some nice quoted numbers. The Senate going out of it's way to stop the President from appointing via Recess appointment only really got started all the time during the Clinton administration, saw a resurgence during the Obama administration and has been used by the Republicans to stop Trump during his administration.

This unequivocal a declaration of dictatorship you called it is Senate horseshit that started under a Democratic President to stop some Clinton administration appointments, returned under a second Democratic administration and has been used by the current President's own party I assume from nominating his favorite Horse to the Join Chiefs.

Again and I can't stress this enough
Article II, Section 3 wrote:
Section 3

He shall from time to time give to the Congress Information of the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient; he may, on extraordinary Occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in Case of Disagreement between them, with Respect to the Time of Adjournment, he may adjourn them to such Time as he shall think proper; he shall receive Ambassadors and other public Ministers; he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed, and shall Commission all the Officers of the United States.
This is a Presidential power enumerated in the constitution.

*Edit
Remember the one's stopping Trump from making Recess appointments are the Republican party.

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Re: Trump threatens to adjourn Congress.

Post by Zaune »

If it were an administration that wasn't this one, I'd say formally adjourning Congress for the duration was probably not a bad idea. But I'm not sure Trump has acted in good faith at any point in his entire adult life, much less his term in office, so it's a pretty sure bet that he's planning something underhanded.
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Re: Trump threatens to adjourn Congress.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Its pretty clear why he's doing it- to cram through as many of his appointments as he can without even the pretense of oversight.

This is not a typical recess appointment, whatever Mr. Bean wants to pretend. You cannot honestly suggest that adjourning Congress so he can appoint someone without approval is normal, or that it was the intended use of this never-before-used Presidential power.

"President suspends legislature so he can do what he wants without oversight" is pretty blatantly dictatorial, yeah. Dressing it up in a fig leaf of legality, under a law that has never previously been used and was certainly not intended for this purpose, does not change that.

This is not normal, it is not appropriate, and it is authoritarian. Its the destruction of Congressional oversight and the separation of powers- a part of our Constitution which is just a tad more important than the never-before-used power to adjourn Congress.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Trump threatens to adjourn Congress.

Post by Mr Bean »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2020-04-15 08:39pm

This is not a typical recess appointment, whatever Mr. Bean wants to pretend. You cannot honestly suggest that adjourning Congress so he can appoint someone without approval is normal, or that it was the intended use of this never-before-used Presidential power.
Please kindly tell me which of the following was a dictator
Wiki on Recess appointments wrote:Presidents since George Washington have made recess appointments. Washington appointed South Carolina judge John Rutledge as Chief Justice of the United States during a congressional recess in 1795. Because of Rutledge's political views and occasional mental illness, however, the Senate rejected his nomination, and Rutledge attempted suicide and resigned. Almost every president has used recess appointments to appoint judges, over 300 such judicial recess appointments before 2000, including ten Supreme Court justices.[2]

New Jersey judge William J. Brennan was appointed to the Supreme Court by President Dwight D. Eisenhower in 1956 by a recess appointment. This was done in part with an eye on the presidential campaign that year; Eisenhower was running for reelection, and his advisors thought it would be politically advantageous to place a northeastern Catholic on the court. Brennan was promptly confirmed when the Senate came back into session. Eisenhower, in a recess appointment, designated Charles W. Yost as United States Ambassador to Syria.[3] Eisenhower made two other recess appointments, Chief Justice Earl Warren and Associate Justice Potter Stewart.

According to the Congressional Research Service, President Ronald Reagan made 240 recess appointments (average 30 per year) and President George H. W. Bush made 77 recess appointments (average 19 per year). George H. W. Bush appointed Lawrence Eagleburger as Secretary of State during a recess in 1992; Eagleburger, as Deputy Secretary of State, had in effect filled that role after James Baker resigned.

President Bill Clinton made 139 recess appointments (average of 17 per year).

President George W. Bush made 171 recess appointments (average of 21 per year). During the last two years of the Bush administration, Democratic Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid sought to prevent further recess appointments. Bush promised not to make any during the August recess that year, but no agreement was reached for the two-week Thanksgiving break, in November 2007. As a result, Reid did not allow adjournments of more than three days from then until the end of the Bush presidency by holding pro forma sessions.[4][5] Prior to this, there had been speculation that James W. Holsinger would receive a recess appointment as Surgeon General of the United States.[6]

President Barack Obama made 32 recess appointments (through February 1, 2015), all to full-time positions.[1] Over what would have traditionally been the 2011–12 winter recess of the 112th Congress, the Republican-controlled House of Representatives did not assent to recess, specifically to block Richard Cordray's appointment as Director of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.[7] Both the House and Senate continued to hold pro forma sessions.[8]

In August 2017, nine pro forma sessions were set up to block President Donald Trump from making recess appointments. The concern was that Trump might dismiss Attorney General Jeff Sessions, and try to name his successor while Congress was in recess.[9] Pro forma sessions continued to be held until January 2019. It was held on December 31, 2018,[10] and again on January 2, 2019, the last full day of the 115th United States Congress, that lasted several minutes.
I could spent the next two hours finding somewhere on the Internets the full President by President list of recess appointments but I don't have that kind of time since I know at the end of that massive work you'd look at it and say so what THIS is different never mind it is the same. The President may be unusual but the concept of Recces appointments is a very familiar and time tested one.

If you really want something to freak out about RR something that matters how about A major DoD contract was declared okay despite the fact the Inspector general was not allowed to interview anyone

See that seems way more important than a President doing what Presidents have done with Recess appointments

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Re: Trump threatens to adjourn Congress.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Yeah, the DoD contract is a whole separate pile of shit, but again, this is not just another recess appointment. This is invoking an obscure, questionable power which has literally never been used before, to force Congress to adjourn so that Trump can make those appointments.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Trump threatens to adjourn Congress.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Questions over whether he can actually do it, and why this isn't just another recess appointment:

https://washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020 ... stitution/
For the second time this week, President Trump generated needless constitutional confusion Wednesday by suggesting he might use his extremely limited power to adjourn Congress in a circumstance in which it clearly isn’t applicable. Bemoaning his inability to push through “recess appointments” he said:

“The Senate’s practice of gaveling into so-called pro forma sessions where no one is even there has prevented me from using the constitutional authority that we’re given under the recess provisions. The Senate should either fulfill its duty and vote on my nominees, or it should formally adjourn so that I can make recess appointments. We have a tremendous number of people that have to come into government, and now more so than ever before because of the virus, and the problem. We have to do it. And we have to do whatever we have to do.”

Just like his ill-conceived boast Monday, that he has “absolute power” and that his “authority is total” to override local and state governments to order schools and businesses to reopen before the coronavirus pandemic has ebbed, his adjournment threat was hollow.

Leave aside that the president’s own party controls the Senate and has assented to the current legislative calendar. Trump’s argument is legally implausible, practically moot and another example of his attempts, guilefully or not, to move the Overton window on constitutional debate. He’s misreading the letter of the Constitution, and the spirit — even in a crisis, the founding document’s central purpose is to thwart the autocratic instinct “to do whatever we have to do.”

Taking the law first. Article II, Section 3 of the Constitution provides that the President “may, on extraordinary Occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in Case of Disagreement between them, with Respect to the Time of Adjournment, he may adjourn them to such Time as he shall think proper.” What may not be clear from this text, but is abundantly clear from the Constitution’s context, is that the adjournment power was meant to limit the president — to confine to exactly one circumstance the power to send Congress home prematurely.

As Alexander Hamilton wrote in The Federalist No. 69, “a British monarch may prorogue or even dissolve the Parliament,” and a governor “may also prorogue the legislature of this State for a limited time, but “The President can only adjourn the national legislature in the single case of disagreement about the time of adjournment.” Thinking especially of the example of King Charles I, the Founders were wary of how British kings had dissolved parliaments with which they disagreed, and saw limits on the adjournment power as indispensable to protecting Congress’s authority as a coordinate branch of government. And the power was only necessary in this extreme case because, under Article I, Section 5, “Neither House, during the Session of Congress, shall, without the Consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days, nor to any other Place than that in which the two Houses shall be sitting.” In other words, only when the two chambers couldn’t agree among themselves on a date for adjournment could the president step in and fill the gap.

That’s why the adjournment power has never been used in our history — not “perhaps” never, as Trump said — not ever. The reason is not just that, even when controlled by different parties, the House of Representatives and the Senate are usually able to agree in advance on adjournments; it’s also that, even when they don’t, one chamber can spoil the president’s power by simply (if begrudgingly) going along with the other. It’s also increasingly anachronistic: Whereas Congress used to take long, formal recesses between its sessions, it has, for more than a half-century, typically remained in session from Jan. 3 through the conclusion of all legislative business (which, in recent years, has run nearly until the next Jan. 3). Simply put, it would take both a remarkable abandonment of tradition from Senate Republicans, and a refusal to go along from House Democrats for the president to even be in position to formally adjourn Congress. And before any of this happens, Congress would, more than a little ironically, have to return to Washington — and the Senate would have to vote to change the adjournment schedule.

The constitutional law aside, this measure wouldn’t make practical sense: As Trump would be the first to tell you, he’s been wildly successful in getting his judicial appointees confirmed by the Senate. He has also, gleefully, relied heavily on his ability to name “acting” officers to many vacant senior government positions rather than making permanent nominations to various posts. “It gives me more flexibility; do you understand that? I like ‘acting,’” he said last year. To take just one example, last Friday marked one full year without a Senate-confirmed secretary of homeland security — a position that plays a critical role in the response to a pandemic — and no nominee has been named. Adjourning Congress as a means to getting appointments pushed through may therefore be a solution in search of a problem.

The recess appointment power exists so a president can fill key posts when Congress isn’t in session. It’s not meant to supplant the Senate’s advise-and-consent role, as Trump seems to want to do, and it’s not operable when the Senate is technically in session. A recess-appointed executive branch officer who serves at the pleasure of the president can simply be fired by the current president, or the next one. (And, in any event, the recess appointee only serves until the end of the next session of Congress.) Meanwhile, if Trump could and actually did adjourn Congress now, he’d be responsible for having sent Congress (and its power of the purse) home in the middle of a growing economic crisis and the worst public health crisis this country has faced in over a century — all with elections right around the corner.

Just like Trump’s claim of “total” power over states, his threat to adjourn Congress is empty, both formally and functionally. That doesn’t mean, however, that it should be ignored. Congress must push back, not only to set the record straight about what the Constitution allows (and why) and to protect its prerogatives as an equal branch of government, but to make it harder for Trump to repeatedly muddy the constitutional waters by suggesting these questions are open for debate. They aren’t.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

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Re: Trump threatens to adjourn Congress.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Even McConnell apparently found this one step too far:

https://msn.com/en-us/news/politics/mcc ... r-BB12JdcZ
President Trump raised the possibility that he could invoke Article 2, Section 3 of the Constitution to adjourn Congress in order to make recess federal appointments, a never-before-used presidential power that Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R., Ky.) suggested he would not support.

Trump proposed during the White House coronavirus press briefing on Wednesday that he would use his “very strong power” to “exercise my Constitutional authority to adjourn both chambers of Congress.”

“As the entire US government works to combat the global pandemic, it is absolutely essential that key positions at relevant federal agencies are fully staffed, and we’re not allowing that to take place through our Congress,” Trump explained, saying he had 129 nominees “stuck in the Senate because of partisan obstruction.”

Congress, currently in recess until May 4, is still having pro-forma sessions in which any lawmaker can object to a motion — preventing the president from pushing through vacancy appointments.

“The current practice of leaving town while conducting phony pro-forma sessions is a dereliction of duty the American people can’t afford during this crisis,” Trump said. “They have been warned.”

In a statement Wednesday night, McConnell said he shared the president’s “frustration with the process,” but admitted that “under Senate rules,” confirmation processes “will take consent from Leader Schumer,” suggesting he did not agree with the means proposed by the White House.

Mitch McConnell wearing a suit and tie talking on a cell phone: Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) walks to the Senate Chamber floor on Capitol Hill on April 9, 2020.© Tom Brenner/Reuters Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) walks to the Senate Chamber floor on Capitol Hill on April 9, 2020.
While the Constitution says that the president “may, on extraordinary Occasions . . . in Case of Disagreement between them” adjourn Congress, it has never been invoked by a president before, and its scope is unknown relative to federal appointments during pro-forma sessions. Later in the briefing, Trump admitted that if he attempted to move forward with the plan, it would “probably be challenged in court.”

In addition to the courts, Trump would also have to secure McConnell’s cooperation, since the Senate would have to be reconvened to vote on the adjournment.

In 2014, the Supreme Court ruled in a separate case against a 2012 attempt by then-President Barack Obama to make three recess appointments during pro-forma sessions, saying “that the Recess Appointment Clause does not give the President the constitutional authority to make the appointments here at issue.”
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Trump threatens to adjourn Congress.

Post by Ace Pace »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2020-04-18 02:11am Even McConnell apparently found this one step too far:
I'll remind you that he likely finds this a step to far in limiting his power. :wink:
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Re: Trump threatens to adjourn Congress.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Ace Pace wrote: 2020-04-18 05:36am
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2020-04-18 02:11am Even McConnell apparently found this one step too far:
I'll remind you that he likely finds this a step to far in limiting his power. :wink:
Of course. I think it would be a bit much to expect McConnell to actually grow even a vestigial conscience at this point.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Trump threatens to adjourn Congress.

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Mr Bean wrote: 2020-04-15 08:48pm Please kindly tell me which of the following was a dictator
I don't want to put words in TRR's mouth, but I think you are talking past each other a little. TRR isn't saying that the entire notion of and practice of recess appointments as specified in the Constitution is inherently undemocratic or that anyone who has ever used them must therefore be a dictator. He is pointing out that this is an extension of legally provided executive authority that Trump may be able to abuse, given the circumstances. It is important to remember that the vast majority of 20th century dictators have generally relied, especially early in their reigns, on operating in legal grey zones by using legally provided powers in aggressive ways, pushing far enough for them to benefit and concentrate power but not so far as to be unequivocally overturnable in courts or the legislature, etc.

I'm just saying if you want to argue with TRR's position, you should really be arguing about whether you think Trump SPECIFICALLY is using this power in an abusive manner in this particular incident. Talking about the fact that recess appointments in general are legal and that other people have exercised them appropriately is a bit of a red herring.
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Re: Trump threatens to adjourn Congress.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Ziggy Stardust wrote: 2020-04-18 10:25am
Mr Bean wrote: 2020-04-15 08:48pm Please kindly tell me which of the following was a dictator
I don't want to put words in TRR's mouth, but I think you are talking past each other a little. TRR isn't saying that the entire notion of and practice of recess appointments as specified in the Constitution is inherently undemocratic or that anyone who has ever used them must therefore be a dictator. He is pointing out that this is an extension of legally provided executive authority that Trump may be able to abuse, given the circumstances. It is important to remember that the vast majority of 20th century dictators have generally relied, especially early in their reigns, on operating in legal grey zones by using legally provided powers in aggressive ways, pushing far enough for them to benefit and concentrate power but not so far as to be unequivocally overturnable in courts or the legislature, etc.

I'm just saying if you want to argue with TRR's position, you should really be arguing about whether you think Trump SPECIFICALLY is using this power in an abusive manner in this particular incident. Talking about the fact that recess appointments in general are legal and that other people have exercised them appropriately is a bit of a red herring.
That recess appointments are legal and commonplace was never in contention, except in Mr Bean's strawman. Of course they are.

The issue here, as you noted, is Trump (hypothetically) using a legally-ambiguous, untested provision to adjourn Congress in order to create the conditions to allow him to make recess appointments.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Trump threatens to adjourn Congress.

Post by Mr Bean »

Ziggy Stardust wrote: 2020-04-18 10:25am
Mr Bean wrote: 2020-04-15 08:48pm Please kindly tell me which of the following was a dictator
I don't want to put words in TRR's mouth, but I think you are talking past each other a little. TRR isn't saying that the entire notion of and practice of recess appointments as specified in the Constitution is inherently undemocratic or that anyone who has ever used them must therefore be a dictator. He is pointing out that this is an extension of legally provided executive authority that Trump may be able to abuse, given the circumstances. It is important to remember that the vast majority of 20th century dictators have generally relied, especially early in their reigns, on operating in legal grey zones by using legally provided powers in aggressive ways, pushing far enough for them to benefit and concentrate power but not so far as to be unequivocally overturnable in courts or the legislature, etc.

I'm just saying if you want to argue with TRR's position, you should really be arguing about whether you think Trump SPECIFICALLY is using this power in an abusive manner in this particular incident. Talking about the fact that recess appointments in general are legal and that other people have exercised them appropriately is a bit of a red herring.
Fair point to Ziggy but as I will repeat in the past the idea that Congress would stay in session to stop the president from making a Recess appointment is a new thing. It used to not happen because Congress used to not hold fake sessions of Congress to avoid the Constitutionally recognized power of the President to make appointments when Congress is not in session. Up until President Clinton both parties Presidents made recess appointments as needed until the Clinton administration. The party responsible for the President being unable to make recess appointments is his own party so I don't see how A flows into B flows into Dictator rar rar.

Lets put it into a pseudo math equation.

If Presidents appointing personnel via recess appointments = Legal and a time honored tradition
If Congress holding fake sessions to prevent the President from making recess appointments = Something that started 25 years ago and is still used infrequently but is fully legal
Then how does President using a explicitly written method to get avoid those fake sessions = Dictator?

The pseudo math does not add up, every President has made recess appointments, Congress within our life times just started using fake sessions to try and stop it (But only for Democrats and Trump, both Bush's got to make as many appointments as they liked). Again this is all coming about because Congress is refusing to hold votes up or down on these nominees and talked about possible nominees. I'm saying that if another President say if former President Obama had done it during his term or if a future President Biden had done it during his term because say Republicans still held the Senate in 2021 and refused to hold ANY confirmation hearings then TRR would not be yelling Dictator from the rooftops.

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Re: Trump threatens to adjourn Congress.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Actually, I fucking would have a problem with Obama or Biden adjourning Congress.

Here's an idea: Why don't you respond to what I actually said, rather than pronouncing what I would say in a hypothetical situation so you can accuse me of hypocrisy for something I never said?

Oh, yeah, because utterly shameless lying and character attacks are not only consequence free but actively encouraged on this board, especially if I'm the target, are a highly-effective way of derailing any topic without having to defend your bullshit, and will most likely result in me being blamed because everybody "knows" its always my fault.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Trump threatens to adjourn Congress.

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

For the love of fuck, he's not trying to make a character attack, he is making an important point.

Let's make the hypothetical situation more specific. Remember when the Republican Senate blocked Obama from filling a Supreme Court seat by refusing to consider the nomination? As you yourself have (correctly) pointed out numerous times on this board, the Republican Senate refused to fulfill its constitutional obligations for petty political gain. What if during that whole drama, the Senate had gone on recess, and Obama appointed Merrick Garland to the seat as a recess appointment (and yes, the legal writ of recess appointments does extend to vacant Supreme Court seats)?

Are you really, honestly, saying you would have rebuked Obama to the same degree you are doing to Trump? Because come on, man. Of course you wouldn't have. Neither would I. Bringing up a hypothetical isn't a character attack. Instead of getting defensive at an imagined sleight, use the opportunity a hypothetical presents to carefully examine the arguments you are making and how they hold up.

Hell, claiming you would rebuke Obama to the same extent as you would Trump DIRECTLY contradicts a major part of your argument (the one that I had attempted to clarify in my previous post). As I said before, the argument here isn't that these appointments aren't legal, it's that Trump is the type of person in the type of situation in which using it abusing this legal right is highly likely; whereas in the situation with Obama, of course it isn't likely that he would use it to become a dictator like Trump might. Obama would be using it to force the hand of the Senate to actually fulfill their constitutional obligations but holding a confirmation hearing when they return from recess. There is no contradiction in saying you wouldn't be AS worried if Obama did it compared to Trump doing it; it's precisely what you SHOULD be saying .

(By the way, Mr. Bean, the point I just made to TRR is also precisely what refutes your argument. That we would be saying something different if it were a president other than Trump IS THE WHOLE POINT. Once again, it doesn't matter whether these appointments are legal. What matters is that in any situation in which the power of any branch in our government is used to override the powers of another branch, we should be carefully looking at precisely what happens and what the implications of those actions are. Checks and balances are a major part of our government system, and the nature of those evolves over time. In this case, we have the executive checking the legislative, where the current executive is one that actively delights in tearing down political and legal norms for his own benefit, so it is entirely logical that we at least CONSIDER the fact that this could have further negative consequences. It completely distracts from having a real discussion of what those consequences might be if we quibble over hypotheticals that aren't really addressing the main point to begin with.)
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The Romulan Republic
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Re: Trump threatens to adjourn Congress.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

He put words in my mouth in order to paint me as a hypocrite who doesn't care about abuse of power if "my guy" is doing it. I don't like it when people presume to tell me what my opinions are, rather than responding to what I actually say. Most people don't.

As to the rest, I think there are two issues here: the act itself is unusual, an unprecedented use of Presidential power- not because its a recess appointment, those have become normal, but because of the lengths Trump is proposing going to to create the conditions that would allow him to make recess appointments.

The other issue, as you noted, is Trump's personal character. Any President attempting to exercise executive power in an unfamiliar way that undermines Congressional oversight is probably cause for concern, but Trump has a history which makes him particularly untrustworthy and likely to abuse that power.

Both of these things, to my mind, are valid points.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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