SUPERTHREAD: 2020 United States Elections

[The Romulan Republic]

Bernie is asking his supporters to donate to the Democratic Party in support of party unity:

https://newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-ask ... ty-1498680

Biden is doing his job of reaching out to progressives, adopting some key progressive policies and giving us a voice in his campaign. And it seems that Bernie is reciprocating by being a team player in the general election.

[Ralin]

So apparently now there's a Sinophobic as fuck Biden ad attacking Trump for not sealing the border and forcing China to accept 'help' in the form of a CDC on the ground.'

So, tell me again why I should vote for this racist piece of shit? Because Trump was actually right about most of that.

[The Romulan Republic]

McCain's family will support Biden:

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/amp/201 ... ident.html

As Joe Biden prepares to enter the crowded Democratic presidential primary, he’s already got one key, and somewhat surprising, endorsement lined up. According to the Washington Examiner, the family of the late John McCain, a longtime Senate colleague of Biden’s, will back him in both the Democratic primary and, assuming he wins that contest, the general election against Donald Trump.

Sources close to both Biden’s presidential campaign and the McCains said that at some point during the White House race, McCain’s widow Cindy, 64, and daughter Meghan, 34, a host on “The View,” will offer their public support in the hope of removing Trump from office in 2020.

In a tweet posted after the Examiner story, Cindy McCain denied that she’ll be “getting involved in presidential politics.”

The Examiner says it’s unclear at what point the McCains will offer their support for the former vice-president, who was on the ticket in 2008 when Barack Obama defeated McCain for the presidency. Part of the calculation is the potential that their support will hurt Biden with Democratic voters during the primary.

“I’m just not sure how much that helps in a primary where the party is constantly moving towards the left,” a former McCain aide told the Examiner.

But Biden is also sure to run a primary campaign that emphasizes a perceived ability to pull moderate Republicans away from Trump in the general election. One way to convince Democratic voters that he really can do that would be to roll out the endorsement of one of the country’s most prominent Republican families.

Promoted links by Taboola

If anything, that might hurt with progressives, but it'll probably help a bit with independent Centrists and any remaining non-Trump Republicans. And any cracks in Republican unity are a good thing.

Biden certainly seems to be building a broad coalition. It'll be a tricky balancing act to keep it together, and all sides feeling respected and listened to, through the election, but I hope he can do it.

[Ziggy Stardust]

So apparently now there's a Sinophobic as fuck Biden ad attacking Trump for not sealing the border and forcing China to accept 'help' in the form of a CDC on the ground.'

So, tell me again why I should vote for this racist piece of shit? Because Trump was actually right about most of that.

I'm a little confused by your take on the ad. I will grant that there are problems with the ad in terms of the language it uses about China. But what was Trump right about?

Not sending a CDC team to China wasn't the right call. It's pretty routine in potential pandemic situations for there to be involvement from international health agencies with a history of cooperation with local agencies. In fact, there already were permanent CDC staff positions in China prior to Covid-19 (and Trump arbitrarily sacked the epidemiologist specialized in infectious disease outbreaks that was already stationed in China several months ago). In the 2003 SARS outbreak, there were almost a hundred CDC staff (in addition to other WHO member nation staff) sent to China or neighboring nations. Sure, this time around China didn't invite the CDC/WHO in like they did last time, but there's nothing wrong with Biden's point that the US government should have tried to use diplomacy to convince China otherwise. It's important for international agencies to become involved with pandemics as early as possible in their development; what is happening now with Covid-19 worldwide is PRECISELY why it was a dangerous decision not to allow this. The whole point of diplomacy is to convince different nations to work together in pursuit of a common goal, all this ad is implying is that Biden would have tried to accomplish this, whereas Trump made no effort whatsoever.

And the ad points out that the only measure Trump DID take (sealing the border) wasn't even effective, because it still allowed in over 40,000 people. Whatever you think of sealing the border as a principle, the ad is correct. Trump refused to take proactive action early on during the pandemic when it could have made a huge different; he acted late, and the actions he did take weren't even particularly effective ones.

[Ziggy Stardust]

EDIT: Double post

[The Romulan Republic]

Pretty sure he's just trying to rationalize reasons for reelecting Donald "Grab Them By the Pussy" Trump. As a protest against rape, of course.

Here's a hint, Ralin: the moment you utter the words "Trump was right", its probably a good indication that you need to reevaluate your position.

[Ralin]

I'm a little confused by your take on the ad. I will grant that there are problems with the ad in terms of the language it uses about China. But what was Trump right about?

A tweet back in January stating that China had worked hard to contain the spread of the coronavirus and expressing gratitude towards President Xi Jinping and the Chinese people for their efforts in doing so.

Not sending a CDC team to China wasn't the right call. It's pretty routine in potential pandemic situations for there to be involvement from international health agencies with a history of cooperation with local agencies. In fact, there already were permanent CDC staff positions in China prior to Covid-19 (and Trump arbitrarily sacked the epidemiologist specialized in infectious disease outbreaks that was already stationed in China several months ago). In the 2003 SARS outbreak, there were almost a hundred CDC staff (in addition to other WHO member nation staff) sent to China or neighboring nations. Sure, this time around China didn't invite the CDC/WHO in like they did last time, but there's nothing wrong with Biden's point that the US government should have tried to use diplomacy to convince China otherwise. It's important for international agencies to become involved with pandemics as early as possible in their development; what is happening now with Covid-19 worldwide is PRECISELY why it was a dangerous decision not to allow this. The whole point of diplomacy is to convince different nations to work together in pursuit of a common goal, all this ad is implying is that Biden would have tried to accomplish this, whereas Trump made no effort whatsoever.

The ad didn’t say anything about diplomacy. It said that a lot about how Biden would make it clear to China that they would have to accept American doctors in their country (China is a sovereign country and doesn’t have to accept a goddamn thing inside their own borders) and used bellicose language about how Biden would require them to be clear and open and that he would hold them ‘accountable,’ whatever the fuck that means. Doing so is clearly invoking racist, Sinophobic prejudices that have been already causing backlash against Asian people for months. As a high profile presidential candidate Biden should not be stirring them up further.

And the ad points out that the only measure Trump DID take (sealing the border) wasn't even effective, because it still allowed in over 40,000 people. Whatever you think of sealing the border as a principle, the ad is correct. Trump refused to take proactive action early on during the pandemic when it could have made a huge different; he acted late, and the actions he did take weren't even particularly effective ones.

Given that Trump has spent years ranting about sealing the border against dangerous refugees and is building towards what many believe will ultimately amount to a Final and Lasting Solution to the Hispanic Problem a Democratic candidate should not be saying anything resembling “Well actually sealing the border would have been a good idea if Trump wasn’t too incompetent to really do it.”

Pretty sure he's just trying to rationalize reasons for reelecting Donald "Grab Them By the Pussy" Trump. As a protest against rape, of course.

Here's a hint, Ralin: the moment you utter the words "Trump was right", its probably a good indication that you need to reevaluate your position.

Reade had publicly accused Biden last year of touching her shoulders and neck and making her feel uncomfortable. Now, according to the Times, she alleges that in 1993, Biden had "pinned her to a wall in a Senate building, reached under her clothing and penetrated her with his fingers."

[The Romulan Republic]

Come back when you have something to say other than shamelessly exploiting rape allegations to justify reelecting a serial rapist.

[Gandalf]

Where is Ralin justifying reelecting Trump?

[Ralin]

Come back when you have something to say other than shamelessly exploiting rape allegations to justify reelecting a serial rapist mock me making excuses for a rapist on my team

[The Romulan Republic]

Where is Ralin justifying reelecting Trump?

He's advocating Never Biden, which due to the nature of a two party system helps Trump, then trying to claim the moral high ground by smearing me (and everyone else who supports Biden) as supporting rape while ignoring the fact that the actions he supports will themselves help reelect a serial rapist.

He also spewed some crap about how Trump was right in his approach to COVID-19 and China, while accusing Biden of racism.

In short, he's a complete and utter hypocrite, painting me as a rape apologist while defending a rapist, accusing Biden of racism while defending a racist, arguing in bad faith, defending Trump on his handling of COVID of all things, cynically using anything he can to justify throwing the election to Trump while taking zero responsibility for or even acknowledging the consequences of doing so, and generally being a complete and utter fucking tool.

[The Romulan Republic]

Ralin, you are defending a rapist, racist mass murdering mob boss in order to justify your protest vote. You refuse to take any responsibility for the consequences of the actions you advocate, while demanding that I accept responsibility for mine. It seems to me that you do not give a shit about rape, or China, or anything except getting to claim the moral high ground and congratulate yourself for your superiority while the world burns. Or else that you are so myopically focussed on Biden's admittedly great sins that you refuse to see any larger picture, or any of the negative consequences of your own position.

You can and no doubt will continue to smear me as supporting rape culture for supporting Biden, even though I, like tens of millions of other Americans, am doing so to prevent the reelection of a man who represents an existential threat to the country and indeed the planet, and who has committed every single one of Biden's sins plus as well as thousands of others. And because I have found myself at odds with many people on this board, this will likely prove an effective deflection tactic.

However, I don't have to play your game. I've said what I think, and why, and I don't know that there's much more I can add. Any unbiased person reading this thread will see for themselves that you are a liar and a hypocrite, and any biased person will not be convinced no matter how long I argue with you. Consider this my closing statement on the subject.

[Gandalf]

Protip: Not liking Biden doesn't mean that you're pro-Trump. I think Biden's a creepy old piece of shit racist, running against another creepy old piece of shit racist.

I get the amateur utilitarianism of "at least this creepy old man shares my politics, so some degree of violating women is apparently okay," but don't be shocked when people call it out.

[The Romulan Republic]

Protip: Not liking Biden doesn't mean that you're pro-Trump. I think Biden's a creepy old piece of shit racist, running against another creepy old piece of shit racist.

I get the amateur utilitarianism of "at least this creepy old man shares my politics, so some degree of violating women is apparently okay," but don't be shocked when people call it out.

I have never said that violating women is "okay". I will never say that. That is a disgusting lie, and you do not have the right to put those words in anyone's mouth.

I think that Joe Biden is probably a rapist. I think that's fucking awful, and in any just world he'd be criminally charged, not running for President.

And I think that electing Donald Trump would be objectively worse for survivors of sexual assault (and the whole fucking planet) in almost every conceivable way. And while you may argue that refusing to support Biden is not the same as supporting Trump, let's be honest here- unless one of them drops dead, or the entire government is overthrown by election day, one of them will be President. So... which would you prefer? Or are you advocating the third option (assassination/overthrow of the government?).

This is a point which neither you, nor Ralin, nor anybody else has bothered to really address- you just try to handwave it away. Because you have no real answer, and so, having no moral scruples whatsoever, apparently, you try to evade the issue by distracting everyone with "TRR SUPPORTS RAPE!", and demands that I take "responsibility" for my views (or rather the ones you've attributed to me) while you take none for yours'.

But yeah, you're clearly one of the "Both Sides" crowd, and you've made it clear before today that you think the fascist mob boss running the US is fundamentally no different from any other American President. People like you are how he won in the first place, you know. Because when "They're all just as bad" is the accepted political "wisdom", then its no big deal if a fascist wins, right?

As to the claim that I said, or believe, that rape is "okay"- that is libel. You know it, I know, it the mods know it, by all rights you should be banned for it, as should Ralin (and I ought to be banned, if I had actually said anything like that). But you won't be.

So, adding you with Ralin to the "ignore on sight" list.

[Gandalf]

You support Biden for office while saying that he's probably a rapist, therefore by your own words it's acceptable. Would you support Bill Cosby if he was running against Trump with a series of decent policies?

[The Romulan Republic]

You support Biden for office while saying that he's probably a rapist, therefore by your own words it's acceptable. Would you support Bill Cosby if he was running against Trump with a series of decent policies?

I'll reply once more because I think this is a point that should be clarified:

I do not believe that a vote for a candidate means that I must personally support or condone every act that they have committed in their entire life. That is an impossible standard. And a very simplistic one, where one must either completely support or completely condemn every act of a person's life, with no ground in between.

I condemn Biden's crimes. I will continue to acknowledge and condemn those acts. I will demand that he deliver restitution for them in the form of the most pro-feminist policy and administration in American history. If enough evidence should come to light to hold him legally accountable for them, I will support that outcome, and I will support primarying him in four years. However, that does not change the fact that he is, at present, the least damaging option for the United States and the planet. That does not mean that everything he did is "okay" or acceptable. It means simply that every other remotely plausible alternative is worse.

If you disagree with that view, fine. But do so honestly, while acknowledging what my position is, rather than trying to portray me as pro-rape. Or else fuck off.

[The Romulan Republic]

The funny thing is that, when you get down to it, I'm the only one who's actually being, or at least trying to be, completely honest here. I'm the only Biden supporter here honest enough to admit that he's probably guilty, and the only person who admits his guilt who's honest enough to admit the consequences of not voting for him.

And as usual, the result is that I end up attacked from both sides.

[loomer]

I mean, it's pretty clear, TRR, and you need to accept that fundamentally your position is that given the choice - and it is a choice in America - of voting for a rapist to defeat a fascist rapist, you'll vote for the rapist. That is supporting a rapist. It's really that simple. Just own it.

[mr friendly guy]

I am just going to point out with regards to Ralin's post about Biden being sinophobic, not sure if he is phobic towards China per se, but he is racist in the opposite direction and has been even when he was vice president. Remember how he said we don't need to be afraid of China because what have they invented? A play on the racial stereotypes that Asians while having higher IQ than caucasians but are less creative. Even CNN baulked at that and tried to counter it, with retarded examples, but that's CNN. So if anything, Biden's racism is the opposite direction to a phobia, we don't need to fear China because they suck.

Edit - its also a play on Chinese stereotype they can only steal American intellectual property, because America never engages in such matters (snigger).

[The Romulan Republic]

I mean, it's pretty clear, TRR, and you need to accept that fundamentally your position is that given the choice - and it is a choice in America - of voting for a rapist to defeat a fascist rapist, you'll vote for the rapist. That is supporting a rapist. It's really that simple. Just own it.

I've said Biden is guilty. I've said I'm going to vote for him.

What I object to is the argument that that means I am "okay" with rape, that I condone the act, that I do so simply because Biden shares my political views* or is on my team, or supporting Biden makes me pro-rape while helping Trump get reelected somehow doesn't.

Again:

-Trump is bad in all the ways Biden is bad. Indeed, Trump is worse for rape survivors in numerous ways.

-Trump is worse in a whole bunch of other ways. To the point that he arguably represents an existential threat to the human race.

-There is no real third option.

Neither you nor anyone else is really addressing any of this. You aren't addressing the fact that refusing to vote for Biden, and pressuring others to do so, will help reelect Trump. You aren't addressing the fact that Trump will be bad, both for everybody and for rape survivors specifically, in pretty much all the ways Biden is plus a bunch of other ways.

Instead, you just try to deflect and avoid the issue by accusing me of being "okay with rape", and demanding that I "own" it. So that nobody else has to own a fucking thing.

So if I am expected to own my "support" for Biden's sexual abuse, I want Ralin to own that he is trying to help Trump get reelected. I want him to own his apologism for Trump's racism, rape, and his COVID-19 response that killed tens of thousands of people. I want him to own the climate crisis. I want him to own children in cages. I want him to own the KKK's support, and Heather Heyer's murder, and forcing states to suck Trump's dick for ventilators.

And until he does, this is just another case of making me the board's collective whipping boy.



*He doesn't, on many issues. I supported Bernie, remember?

[loomer]

I mean, it's pretty clear, TRR, and you need to accept that fundamentally your position is that given the choice - and it is a choice in America - of voting for a rapist to defeat a fascist rapist, you'll vote for the rapist. That is supporting a rapist. It's really that simple. Just own it.

I've said Biden is guilty. I've said I'm going to vote for him.

What I object to is the argument that that means I am "okay" with rape, that I condone the act, that I do so simply because Biden shares my political views* or is on my team, or supporting Biden makes me pro-rape while helping Trump get reelected somehow doesn't.

You're confused, which you do pretty often. Basically, you're taking us as saying:
1. You are supporting a rapist.
2. This means we think you are, personally, a-okay with rape and view it as moral.

1 does not mean 2. 1 is true, and you continually try and dodge around its actual implications, which are:
3. You think rape is bad, but you also think that sometimes it is acceptable to vote for a rapist, and are currently actively supporting a rapist. This means that you are, to a degree, okay with rape as the lesser of two evils.

Why is this distinct from 2? Because it recognizes that you feel it is immoral. It's just that you don't feel it's so immoral that it disqualifies Biden from receiving your support regardless of the context. So, that's your basic mistake here. You're seeing 2 and not 3, and taking it to be some kind of personal attack rather than a simple statement of fact.

Again:

-Trump is bad in all the ways Biden is bad. Indeed, Trump is worse for rape survivors in numerous ways.

-Trump is worse in a whole bunch of other ways. To the point that he arguably represents an existential threat to the human race.

-There is no real third option.

Neither you nor anyone else is really addressing any of this. You aren't addressing the fact that refusing to vote for Biden, and pressuring others to do so, will help reelect Trump. You aren't addressing the fact that Trump will be bad, both for everybody and for rape survivors specifically, in pretty much all the ways Biden is plus a bunch of other ways.

Yes, and? None of this has anything to do with my point. Shockingly, I can believe Biden is the lesser of two evils while still accurately maintaining that your position is that you will, in fact, vote for a rapist if you view them as the lesser of two evils, and that this necessarily entails you viewing rape as sufficiently acceptable that it is not a complete disqualifying factor.

Again - that is an accurate summation. That is what I'm telling you to own.

Instead, you just try to deflect and avoid the issue by accusing me of being "okay with rape", and demanding that I "own" it. So that nobody else has to own a fucking thing.

I'm not deflecting anything. I'm happy to admit that Biden is, at least in theory, the lesser of two evils on this one. What I'm annoyed at is the way you go into hysterics every time someone accurately characterizes your position as supportive of a rapist. That's why I'm telling you to just own it.

So if I am expected to own my "support" for Biden's sexual abuse,

You're confused again. You can support Biden without supporting the sexual abuse, but in doing so, you are still indicating the following:
1. Rape will not disqualify someone from receiving your support, even if you view it as a repugnant act.
2. You view it as a moral obligation for others to likewise support a rapist (except those of us who've been on the receiving end of sexual abuse. Nice of you to give us a pass.)

That is what I expect you to own. Learn to make the distinction, because it's actually a very important one. Here's a simple thought exercise: Is there any crime that you could swap in here that would make you unconditionally refuse to support Biden? Genocide, for instance? If the answer is yes, then you do in fact view rape more acceptable than that other crime. If the answer is no, well, at least you're consistent.

I want Ralin to own that he is trying to help Trump get reelected. I want him to own his apologism for Trump's racism, rape, and his COVID-19 response that killed tens of thousands of people. I want him to own the climate crisis. I want him to own children in cages. I want him to own the KKK's support, and Heather Heyer's murder, and forcing states to suck Trump's dick for ventilators.

And he should. There's no disagreement from me there.

And until he does, this is just another case of making me the board's collective whipping boy.

No, TRR, it's a case of trying to get you to actually be honest with yourself about your position. I said earlier that you like to position yourself as the Democracy Defender - well, part of actually being the democracy defender when you're going for Biden is recognizing these points of distinction and confronting the fact that you are supporting a rapist and demanding others do so in the name of democracy. You can't sweep the moral dilemma of supporting a rapist under the rug by going 'well, the other guy is worse', because that just leads to the situation where you have to make a deal with the devil - it's not something to treat lightly in any way (and which, ironically enough, is pretty much a small-scale version of whataboutism, which you regularly invoke). It's something you must own and be ready to fight against for the next election, because it's a poison pill that shifts the frame of acceptability.

That's what we're not getting from you. You want to wash your hands clean of the guilt of supporting a rapist by pointing to Donald and going 'well, he's even worse'. And he is - but at the end of the day, if you vote for a rapist, you still voted for a rapist. And that's not something to ignore or try to downplay. That's an act that requires serious thought and work to make amends for, which is what being the democracy defender actually requires.

You may wish to consider whether you'd be the 'collective whipping boy' if you didn't position yourself as a morally correct democracy defender at every opportunity.

[The Romulan Republic]

I acknowledge that Biden is a serial groper and likely rapist. I acknowledge that I'm voting for him regardless, and urging others to do so. I also acknowledge that doing so likely has caused and will cause many people pain and offense, whether because they have personally experienced sexual abuse, or because they know others who have, or simply because my position goes against their personal values. I feel physically ill about it, and about this whole situation, but I'll do it because I do not see a better option. I sincerely apologize if I appeared to be downplaying the significance of that, or hand-waving it away. I also apologize for being an asshole, and that this topic got turned into yet another fight about my personality. This is not about me, or this board's shit-flinging contests.

Of course rape should be automatically disqualifying. But because of how the two-party system works, there is no longer any choice that does not, in all probability, lead to a man who has been credibly accused of rape being elected. Even refusing to vote will result in a rapist getting elected. There is a third option: to rise up, either in peaceful protest or in armed revolt, and attempt to force a different outcome. Maybe that would be the principled thing to do. But most of the country is not ready to take either of those steps yet, and therefore I do not think that either is likely to succeed. Nor am I or the vast majority of the country willing to own responsibility for the consequences of violent revolt.

If electing Joe Biden is a statement that rape is acceptable in some cases, then not electing him is a statement that rape is acceptable in some cases, and that burning the world is also acceptable in some cases. Given that utterly horrible choice, I see only one option I can take. It is not one I take lightly.

As to what I am ready to do after the election- I will demand that Biden appoint women to his cabinet and to the courts, and that he support policies that will help prevent sexual abuse and support survivors. I will support a primary challenge against Biden in 2024, and I will be switching my status to Independent immediately after election day. I will not rejoin the Democratic Party as long as its standard bearer is someone who has been credibly accused of rape or harassment. Should evidence come to light which is sufficient to hold up in court, I will demand Biden's impeachment and indictment. I will also respect the choice of any survivor of sexual abuse who chooses not to support Biden- just as I will respect the choice of anyone who does. If there's anything else that you think I should do, please tell me, and I'll give it very serious consideration.

I'll focus on Trump now, because he's the biggest threat. On January 20th, God willing, Trump will be gone. And then Joe Biden and Democratic Centrism will be the biggest threats.

[Ziggy Stardust]

A tweet back in January stating that China had worked hard to contain the spread of the coronavirus and expressing gratitude towards President Xi Jinping and the Chinese people for their efforts in doing so.

How does that answer my question?

The ad didn’t say anything about diplomacy. It said that a lot about how Biden would make it clear to China that they would have to accept American doctors in their country (China is a sovereign country and doesn’t have to accept a goddamn thing inside their own borders) and used bellicose language about how Biden would require them to be clear and open and that he would hold them ‘accountable,’ whatever the fuck that means. Doing so is clearly invoking racist, Sinophobic prejudices that have been already causing backlash against Asian people for months. As a high profile presidential candidate Biden should not be stirring them up further.

I agree that the language used is problematic. I even said so in my initial post. You are clearly overstating the case a little (the ad doesn't directly say the things you claim it says), but it doesn't matter. Because none of this proves Trump right about anything?

Given that Trump has spent years ranting about sealing the border against dangerous refugees and is building towards what many believe will ultimately amount to a Final and Lasting Solution to the Hispanic Problem a Democratic candidate should not be saying anything resembling “Well actually sealing the border would have been a good idea if Trump wasn’t too incompetent to really do it.”

Seriously? Dude, come on. I refuse to believe you don't see how big of a strawman this is. Even if it weren't a strawman, it still doesn't prove that Trump was right about anything.

[Soontir C'boath]

Whatever you may think of Trump and the actions he's taken so far, his campaign is nailing Democrats to the wall. This time with Pelosi and her ice cream in this ad.

[Ralin]

How does that answer my question?

The ad mocks Trump for making that statement back in January. It's at the 35 second mark. Not sure how to make that clearer

Seriously? Dude, come on. I refuse to believe you don't see how big of a strawman this is. Even if it weren't a strawman, it still doesn't prove that Trump was right about anything.

I don't think it's a strawman at all.