The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Study shows Sweden's economy was hit as badly as its neighbours who locked down:

https://cnbc.com/2020/04/30/coronavirus ... urope.html
Sweden has attracted global attention for not imposing a full lockdown, as seen in most of Europe, to contain the coronavirus pandemic.

Nonetheless, data released from the country’s central bank and a leading Swedish think tank show that the economy will be just as badly hit as its European neighbors, if not worse.

Sweden’s central bank, the Riksbank, gave two possible scenarios for the economic outlook in 2020, which it said “depend on how long the spread of infection continues and on how long the restrictions implemented to slow it down are in place.” Both possible economic outcomes are bleak.

In the first scenario (scenario A in the chart below), gross domestic product contracts by 6.9% in 2020 before rebounding to grow 4.6% in 2021. In a more negative prediction (scenario B), GDP could contract by 9.7% and a recovery could be slower with the economy growing 1.7% in 2021.

In the first scenario, the Riksbank predicted unemployment could reach 8.8% in 2020, from 7.2% currently, and in the worst-case forecast could hit 10.1%.

“In both scenarios, production falls sharply to begin with, and more than during the financial crisis. Sharply falling oil and electricity prices will contribute to low inflation this year,” the Riksbank said. It predicts the inflation rate will stay at 0.6% in 2020, in both scenarios.

The growth projections are sobering for a country that looked to mitigate the economic impact of the coronavirus by not shutting down its economy like the rest of Europe. Lockdowns in Germany, Spain, Italy, France and the U.K., aimed at saving countless lives, have all hit their economies severely.

The International Monetary Fund predicted earlier in April that Germany and the U.K. will see their economies contract by 6.5% and 7% this year, respectively. France is expected to see a 7.2% contraction, Spain an 8% contraction and for Italy to see its economy shrink 9.1%.

Sweden’s neighbors Finland and Denmark, which also imposed lockdowns, are also expected to see their economies contract by 6% and 6.5%, respectively.

The Swedish government advised citizens to stay at, and work from, home if possible. Bars and restaurants remain open but social-distancing measures have been implemented, while schools for the under-16s remain open.

The strategy has proved very controversial but its chief epidemiologist has defended the approach, telling CNBC last week that the capital Stockholm could be heading for “herd immunity” in weeks.

Still, Sweden’s supply chains and businesses have been damaged by the pandemic and the Riksbank warned that “many companies will be hit hard and many people will lose their jobs,” although it decided to hold its benchmark interest rate at zero this week.

It also decided against adding any new measures to support the economy (it has already introduced a loan package for Swedish companies and increased its bond-buying program) but said it was ready to do more if needed.

“It was not deemed justified at this point in time to try to increase demand by lowering the repo rate when the downturn in the economy is due to imposed restrictions and people’s concerns about the spread of infection,” the Riksbank said in a statement Tuesday.

“However, this does not rule out the possibility of the interest rate being cut at a later date if this is deemed an effective measure to stimulate demand and support the development of inflation in the recovery phase.”

The grim data from Sweden’s central bank has been reinforced by a respected think tank this week. The National Institute for Economic Research (NIER) said in a statement Wednesday that it believed that Sweden’s economy is set to shrink 7% this year and unemployment to rise to 10.2%.

“Developments in April indicate that the Covid-19 pandemic will hit the Swedish economy much harder than anticipated,” the NIER said, adding that “the global economy is developing worse than expected which is hitting Swedish export companies which are also hampered by problems with international supply chains.”
Opening up doesn't save the economy. It just means you have a shit economy and more dead people. The worst of all possible worlds.

Cuomo reports most of the new hospitalizations in New York are people who were staying at home (presumably infected by others they were in contact with, ie family/friends). The majority were also racial minorities:

https://cnbc.com/2020/05/06/ny-gov-cuom ... -home.html
Most new Covid-19 hospitalizations in New York state are from people who were staying home and not venturing much outside, a “shocking” finding, Gov. Andrew Cuomo said Wednesday.

The preliminary data was from 100 New York hospitals involving about 1,000 patients, Cuomo said at his daily briefing.

It shows that 66% of new admissions were from people who had largely been sheltering at home. The next highest source of admissions was from nursing homes, 18%.

“If you notice, 18% of the people came from nursing homes, less than 1% came from jail or prison, 2% came from the homeless population, 2% from other congregate facilities, but 66% of the people were at home, which is shocking to us,” Cuomo said.

“This is a surprise: Overwhelmingly, the people were at home,” he added. “We thought maybe they were taking public transportation, and we’ve taken special precautions on public transportation, but actually no, because these people were literally at home.”

Cuomo said nearly 84% of the hospitalized cases were people who were not commuting to work through car services, personal cars, public transit or walking. He said a majority of those people were either retired or unemployed. Overall, some 73% of the admissions were people over age 51.

He said the information shows that those who are hospitalized are predominantly from the downstate area in or around New York City, are not working or traveling and are not essential employees. He also said a majority of the cases in New York City are minorities, with nearly half being African American or Hispanic.

Cuomo said state health officials had thought a high percentage of people who were hospitalized would be essential employees, like health-care workers or city staff, who are still going to work.

“Much of this comes down to what you do to protect yourself. Everything is closed down, government has done everything it could, society has done everything it could. Now it’s up to you,” Cuomo said.

A spokeswoman for Cuomo’s office did not immediately respond to CNBC’s request for additional comment on the governor’s remarks.

Cuomo said the state’s hospitalization rate has continued to decline, although at a “painfully slow” rate. He said around 600 infected people were still walking through hospital doors every day, although that number has also declined.

While data shows the coronavirus is on the decline in New York, the new survey results appear to clash with Cuomo’s prior assurances that isolation can reliably prevent transmission.

“I was afraid that it was going to infect my family no matter what I did. We’re past that,” Cuomo said at a press conference on April 13. “If you isolate, if you take the precautions, your family won’t get infected.”

The daily figures, including the number of people who have died from the coronavirus, will probably be much higher than what has been reported, Cuomo said. He said the state has not been fully documenting the at-home deaths that may be attributable to Covid-19. An additional 232 people died from the coronavirus on Tuesday.

“I think that the reality is going to be worse,” Cuomo said.
Remember when people were saying "Old people can just stay home and we'll be fine?" Yeah, no. EVERYONE needed to stay home.

The strain in the US appears to be a new, mutated form, not the original one that appeared in Wuhan, and is more contagious:

https://cnbc.com/2020/05/05/the-coronav ... finds.html
The coronavirus that emerged in Wuhan, China, over four months ago has since mutated and the new, dominant strain spreading across the U.S. appears to be even more contagious, according to a new study.

The new strain began spreading in Europe in early February before migrating to other parts of the world, including the United States and Canada, becoming the dominant form of the virus across the globe by the end of March, researchers at the Los Alamos National Laboratory wrote in a 33-page report published Thursday on BioRxiv.

If the coronavirus doesn’t subside in the summer like the seasonal flu, it could mutate further and potentially limit the effectiveness of the coronavirus vaccines being developed by scientists around the world, the researchers warned. Some vaccine researchers have been using the virus’s genetic sequences isolated by health authorities early in the outbreak.

“This is hard news,” Bette Korber, a computational biologist at Los Alamos and lead author of the study, the Los Angeles Times said she wrote on her Facebook page.

“But please don’t only be disheartened by it,” she continued. “Our team at LANL was able to document this mutation and its impact on transmission only because of a massive global effort of clinical people and experimental groups, who make new sequences of the virus (SARS-CoV-2) in their local communities available as quickly as they possibly can.”

The study has yet to be peer-reviewed, but the researchers noted that news of the mutation was of “urgent concern” considering the more than 100 vaccines in the process of being developed to prevent Covid-19.

In early March, researchers in China said they found that two different types of the coronavirus could be causing infections worldwide.

In a study published on March 3, scientists at Peking University’s School of Life Sciences and the Institut Pasteur of Shanghai found that a more aggressive type of the new coronavirus had accounted for roughly 70% of analyzed strains, while 30% had been linked to a less aggressive type. The more aggressive and deadly strain was found to be prevalent in the early stages of the outbreak in Wuhan — the Chinese city where the virus first emerged.

The Los Alamos researchers, with the help of scientists at Duke University and the University of Sheffield in England, were able to analyze thousands of coronavirus sequences collected by the Global Initiative for Sharing All Influenza, an organization that promotes the rapid sharing of data from all influenza viruses and the coronavirus.

Wondering if insurance will cover the coronavirus - here is what you need to know
To date, the researchers have identified 14 mutations.

The mutation impacts the spike protein, a multifunctional mechanism that allows the virus to enter the host.

The research was supported by funding from the Medical Research Council, the National Institute of Health Research and Genome Research Limited.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by The Romulan Republic »

"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by J »

When i see IMF numbers, my spidey sense tingles.

Let's see what the estimates are from the Bank of Finland.
https://www.suomenpankki.fi/globalasset ... 4-2020.pdf
Direct your attention to page 5; best case is a 5.3% contraction, worst case is 13.2%.

We need to compare like to like. Now that we have the real numbers, we argue if it was worth it.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by ray245 »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2020-05-06 04:45pm
“This is a surprise: Overwhelmingly, the people were at home,” he added. “We thought maybe they were taking public transportation, and we’ve taken special precautions on public transportation, but actually no, because these people were literally at home.”
No one is "literally at home". They still have to go out to groceries and etc, They still have to interact with deliveries and etc. They still have to use the common areas of an apartment.

Apparently, Chinese doctors found out that most of the infection actually took place at home, and the only way they managed to break the transmission is to take all people, even those with mild cases and isolate them at public facilities. Given that New York is unable to do anything for those people with mild-cases, all you are ending up with is the people who get infected from their local community transmission, particularly by those people who might have mild symptoms or being completely asymptomatic.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by The Romulan Republic »

ray245 wrote: 2020-05-06 05:37pm
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2020-05-06 04:45pm
“This is a surprise: Overwhelmingly, the people were at home,” he added. “We thought maybe they were taking public transportation, and we’ve taken special precautions on public transportation, but actually no, because these people were literally at home.”
No one is "literally at home". They still have to go out to groceries and etc, They still have to interact with deliveries and etc. They still have to use the common areas of an apartment.
Excluding kids or the elderly or disabled who are stuck at home, and have others to do their shopping for them.
Apparently, Chinese doctors found out that most of the infection actually took place at home, and the only way they managed to break the transmission is to take all people, even those with mild cases and isolate them at public facilities. Given that New York is unable to do anything for those people with mild-cases, all you are ending up with is the people who get infected from their local community transmission, particularly by those people who might have mild symptoms or being completely asymptomatic.
Not too surprising. One person in the house gets it, everyone else does.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by The Romulan Republic »

From Facebook:

Image

I repeat:

They know people are dying.

They know its getting worse.

They know opening up is against sound science. And against sound economics too, if Sweden is any indication.

They are doing it anyway, and they're lying about it.

The dead will be mostly the poor, the infirm, minorities, and old people collecting social security and Medicare. People, in short, who's lives Republicans do not value.

I don't know about any of you, but that looks a lot like a genocide to me.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Gandalf »

I don't know if I'd go as far as genocide, but I'd file it under "Republicans gonna Republican."
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

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Gandalf wrote: 2020-05-06 05:52pm I don't know if I'd go as far as genocide, but I'd file it under "Republicans gonna Republican."
Must you respond to every single thing Trump or his allies do, no matter how awful or evil, with a reflexive "But you know, this is no different than business as usual"?

I get it. You want everyone to remember that America has always been this evil. But how about you stop downplaying and normalizing atrocities to make your fucking point?

While you'd probably need more evidence to label it a genocide beyond any doubt, its pretty clear that the Trump regime and its allies are taking deliberate actions, at least to some extent knowingly, that will increase the death toll. And that that burden will fall primarily on minorities and other vulnerable groups who Republicans view with contempt. I therefore am inclined to view it in much the same terms as the Ukrainian famines under Stalin, which are often regarded as a genocide because the mass death of Ukranians was a result of Soviet policy.

In related news:

"A Native American health center asked for COVID-19 supplies. It got body bags instead."

https://nbcnews.com/news/us-news/native ... t-n1200246
In mid-March, as the Seattle region grappled with a coronavirus outbreak, a community health center caring for the area's Native American population made an urgent request to county, state and federal health agencies: Please send medical supplies.

What it received almost three weeks later left staff members stunned.

"My team turned ghost white," said Esther Lucero, chief executive officer of the Seattle Indian Health Board. "We asked for tests, and they sent us a box of body bags."

The health board's center — serving about 6,000 people a year in Seattle and King County — still has the package, which is filled with zippered white bags and beige tags that read "attach to toe."

Lucero said the body bags were a mistaken — yet nonetheless macabre — delivery from a distributor via King County's Public Health Department.

Abigail Echo-Hawk, the health board's chief research officer, said she believes that the message it sends, even unintentionally, is resonating in Native American communities across the United States during the pandemic: There is a pressing lack of adequate resources and funding as promised.

"The Navajo Nation is in a crisis with cases, and there are tribes and other Indian organizations across the country that are in similar crises and can use medical supplies and help instead of watching people die," Echo-Hawk said. "This is a metaphor for what's happening."

Her concern comes as the federal government announced Tuesday that it will begin distributing billions of dollars in desperately needed pandemic-relief funds to Native American tribal governments, money that was delayed for more than a month in a related legal dispute.

While Seattle and Washington as a whole have managed to slow the spread of the coronavirus after being the nation's earliest hot spot at the beginning of March, Echo-Hawk said she's worried about whether the center will be able to perform the necessary coronavirus testing or secure enough personal protective equipment, or PPE, as businesses reopen and if a second wave of the virus crops up later this year, as health officials have warned.

"My questions is: Are we going to keep getting body bags or are we going to get what we actually need?" Echo-Hawk said.

Research shared this month from Public Health — Seattle & King County suggests that social distancing efforts in the region have been effective, with the county's infection rate falling since early March, although the rate of infection among people of color is still four times that of whites.

The Seattle Indian Health Board is one of 41 urban health programs under the federal Indian Health Service, which provides health care access to about 2.5 million American Indians and Alaska Natives.

Lucero said receiving PPE or COVID-19 tests, and not body bags, back in March was critical while they were working to curb the spread of the virus. At the time, the Seattle Indian Health Board did not have the capacity to test, and although the Federal Emergency Management Agency did offer to provide testing for the center, the logistics involved didn't make the process feasible, Lucero said.

She's a doctor on the front lines of the coronavirus. At home, she has no running water.
After turning down FEMA's offer, the box of body bags inexplicably arrived, Lucero added. The health board did not have a contact at the county health department to ask about the shipment. Meanwhile, Lucero said, the county did help deliver about 200 COVID-19 test kits through FEMA.

She welcomed those tests because unlike the earlier ones, the health board was permitted to use their own lab to process the tests and communicate the results to patients directly.

Public Health — Seattle & King County on Tuesday said it was looking into the health board's claims, but the county did not appear to receive or process any requests for COVID-19 test kits from the board, and referred inquiries to Washington's Emergency Management Division. The state could not immediately be reached for comment Wednesday.

Image: Abigail Echo-Hawk, a Pawnee tribal member, is chief research officer for the Seattle Indian Health Board.Abigail Echo-Hawk, a Pawnee tribal member, is chief research officer for the Seattle Indian Health Board.Seattle Indian Health Board
While the Seattle Indian Health Board has the PPE and supplies it needs as of now, Echo-Hawk and Lucero said, they were disappointed in the lack of aid in those crucial, earlier weeks and have since relied on Native-owned business such as the retail brand Eighth Generation in Seattle for donations to adequately fill the void.

"We need to have the correct resources and be included at the state and federal level," Echo-Hawk said. "Until then, Native organizations like mine are going to push forward to create the resources needed for us and by us."

The Seattle Indian Health Board has previously received some federal funding, which has helped to set up an additional testing site and keep the center operating, Echo-Hawk said. But she added that the program could benefit further from funding set aside for tribes and federal Indian programs in the Coronavirus Aid, Relief and Economic Security Act, a $2 trillion stimulus package passed in March.

The U.S. government has an obligation to provide health care to all Native Americans as stipulated in longstanding treaties with Indian tribes.

Download the NBC News app for latest updates on the coronavirus outbreak

The Treasury and Interior departments announced the distribution Tuesday of $4.8 billion to tribal governments, divvied up based on their census figures. However, urban Indian programs are not part of this phase.

The stimulus money was expected to be released before the end of April, as mandated by the law, but a legal feud erupted when tribal governments denounced the idea that Alaska Native corporations, which are for-profit businesses that serve tribal villages, would be allocated some of the funding.

Tara Sweeney, the assistant secretary for Indian affairs in the Department of Interior and an Alaska Native, has been accused by some tribes of having a conflict of interest and trying to divert some of the funding for Alaska Native corporations.

The Interior Department said in a statement that Sweeney has acted ethically and that some are "seeking to sow division during a time of crisis with unfounded allegations of favoritism."

Some Native American tribes have filed lawsuits challenging the aid for Alaska Native corporations, and the Treasury Department said Tuesday that such funding will be "held back" until the litigation is resolved.

Sen. Tom Udall, D-N.M., the vice chairman of the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs, said the funds should have been out the door to help Native communities on the outset of the pandemic.

"Treasury's announcement is the definition of 'too little, too late,'" Udall said in a statement. "It comes weeks after the deadline and billions of dollars short."
Accident or not, that does pretty much perfectly sum up this regime's approach to coronavirus.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

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I believe the point Gandalf is trying to make is that the Trump adminstration has been taking deliberate actions that they know will cause unnecessary suffering and death for as long as there has been a Trump administration. Hell, the Republicans and their regional equivalents have been doing that since before I was even born.

The only thing that's really changed is that it's no longer possible for anyone to be wilfully ignorant of this fact, because previously the only victims were poor, disabled and usually nonwhite and/or queer. A lot of white, straight and middle-class Americans are currently learning to their dismay that they are also expendable in the eyes of the ultra-wealthy, and frankly I'd have a lot more sympathy for them if they'd bothered to notice or care before it affected them personally.

You hate the fact that this is normalised? Good, so do I. But I literally cannot remember a time in my life when the genocide by depraved indifference of anyone who's not considered "useful" in the eyes of a capitalist society wasn't normalised.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Zaune wrote: 2020-05-06 07:11pm I believe the point Gandalf is trying to make is that the Trump adminstration has been taking deliberate actions that they know will cause unnecessary suffering and death for as long as there has been a Trump administration. Hell, the Republicans and their regional equivalents have been doing that since before I was even born.

The only thing that's really changed is that it's no longer possible for anyone to be wilfully ignorant of this fact, because previously the only victims were poor, disabled and usually nonwhite and/or queer. A lot of white, straight and middle-class Americans are currently learning to their dismay that they are also expendable in the eyes of the ultra-wealthy, and frankly I'd have a lot more sympathy for them if they'd bothered to notice or care before it affected them personally.

You hate the fact that this is normalised? Good, so do I. But I literally cannot remember a time in my life when the genocide by depraved indifference of anyone who's not considered "useful" in the eyes of a capitalist society wasn't normalised.
I think its fair to say that a lot of Trump's evil is traditional American conservatism, but dialed up to 11 and with the veneer stripped away.

But the way I see it is, if this is the point where more people finally start to notice and give a shit, that's a good thing. No, we shouldn't ignore the shit under other Presidents, but we should encourage that feeling, not just respond to everything with "It was always like this, and you're a hypocrite if you care now". Which is the attitude I always seem to get from Gandalf (and some others).

The revolution can't end with getting rid of Trump- but it has to start somewhere. If this is the catalyst that gets people motivated to change things, bring it the fuck on.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Dickless now appears to be backtracking, says task force won't disband:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=2VCkg-HHJBc
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Zaune »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2020-05-06 07:30pmI think its fair to say that a lot of Trump's evil is traditional American conservatism, but dialed up to 11 and with the veneer stripped away.

But the way I see it is, if this is the point where more people finally start to notice and give a shit, that's a good thing. No, we shouldn't ignore the shit under other Presidents, but we should encourage that feeling, not just respond to everything with "It was always like this, and you're a hypocrite if you care now". Which is the attitude I always seem to get from Gandalf (and some others).

The revolution can't end with getting rid of Trump- but it has to start somewhere. If this is the catalyst that gets people motivated to change things, bring it the fuck on.
Damn right. But no way in hell do any of the newly motivated get to delude themselves into thinking that this was an unprecedented or unique example of a right-wing government behaving with callous disregard for the value of human life just because it wasn't happening to anyone they knew.

Remember this moment from the last episode of DS9? A lot of people are going to need doing for them what Colonel Kira does for Damar.

There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by mr friendly guy »

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-07/ ... n=business
Europe to endure economic shock akin to Great Depression due to coronavirus, finance chiefs say

The collective European economy will contract by 7.7 per cent and inflation in the eurozone will almost disappear this year because of the COVID-19 pandemic, the European Commission forecast on Wednesday.

Key points:
The economic shock is forecast to be the worst since the Great Depression
Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal will be among the hardest hit
Recovery would be shaped by lockdown-easing schedules and regional reliance on certain industries, like tourism
Public debt and budget deficits are also expected to balloon because of economic hardship brought on by the health crisis.

"Europe is experiencing an economic shock without precedent since the Great Depression," European Commissioner for Economic and Financial Affairs Paolo Gentiloni said.

"Both the depth of the recession and the strength of recovery will be uneven, conditioned by the speed at which lockdowns can be lifted, the importance of services like tourism in each economy and by each country's financial resources."

The commission forecast that, as the economy contracts this year, consumer prices will almost stagnate.

The inflation rate will slow to 0.2 per cent in 2020, before accelerating to 1.1 per cent next year, when the eurozone returns to growth of 6.3 per cent.

Investment will plunge 13.3 per cent this year, the forecast states.


The effort to keep economies alive will boost budget deficits in the eurozone to an aggregate 8.5 per cent of GDP this year, from 0.6 per cent last year, before the gap shrinks to 3.5 per cent in 2021.

A surge in public debt, however, will take longer to undo, the commission said, forecasting that eurozone debt will jump to 102.7 per cent of GDP this year from 86 per cent last year.

Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal will be among the hardest hit, while Luxembourg, Malta and Austria are to weather the shock better.

Greek GDP is to contract the most, by 9.7 per cent, with Italy recording the second deepest recession of 9.5 per cent and Spain 9.4 per cent.

The budget deficit of Italy, the EU country suffering the most deaths due to coronavirus, will also surge the most — to 11.1 per cent of GDP this year, from 1.6 per cent last year, before falling to 5.6 per cent in 2021, the commission forecast.

Spain's deficit will top 10 per cent this year, up from 2.8 per cent in 2019, with France close behind at 9.9 per cent.

Italy's public debt will also record the biggest increase this year, to 158.9 per cent per cent of GDP, from 134.8 per cent in 2019.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by The Romulan Republic »

US military is not accepting recruits who've recovered from COVID-19, due to uncertainty over long-term health effects:

https://thehill.com/policy/defense/4965 ... m-covid-19
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Zaune »

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... ure-claims
Representatives of an international group that calls itself a “healing church” and promotes industrial bleach as a cure for coronavirus say they should be allowed to continue selling the potentially toxic “miracle” solution in Australia on religious freedom grounds.

The ABC reported on Tuesday the Australian chapter of the Genesis II Church of Health and Healing is selling chlorine dioxide – marketed as Miracle Mineral Solution – online.
There's quite a lot more after that, but I think those first two sentences tell you everything you could ever need or want to know about Miracle Mineral Solution.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by aerius »

I have a question: Given that there's no vaccine on the horizon and possibly no lasting immunity and thus no herd immunity if the early research posted mr friendly guy on the last page confirms, what options does that leave us with? Especially considering that Europe and North America have completely failed at containing the spread of the virus.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Solauren »

In the US and Europe, nothing short of a full martial-law-lockdown of all by medical, repair, and emergency services, with the government paying for everything (including utilities and rent) and delivering people supplies via drafted taxi-drivers, delivery services, and Uber, is going to contain the virus.

It's out, and it's the new common cold.

They're only hope of controlling it would be immediate universal healthcare, with total coverage for CORVID-19 related issues and care, a massive increase in manufacture of ventilators (draft/nationalize every 3D Printing Service if need be), and making masks mandatory in public.

I don't see either happening.

At this point its "wear masks, accept the death count, vote out the leaders that fucked up out next election cycle, try to have them charged, and otherwise deal as best you can"
I've been asked why I still follow a few of the people I know on Facebook with 'interesting political habits and view points'.

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick »

MKSheppard wrote: 2020-05-06 10:43am Cuomo continues to win friends and alienate people:

LINK
Speaking as someone who has frequently crossed state lines to work.... that's actually the normal practice. If you work in another state you have to pay taxes there as well as where you reside.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Solauren wrote: 2020-05-07 10:41am In the US and Europe, nothing short of a full martial-law-lockdown of all by medical, repair, and emergency services, with the government paying for everything (including utilities and rent) and delivering people supplies via drafted taxi-drivers, delivery services, and Uber, is going to contain the virus.

It's out, and it's the new common cold.

They're only hope of controlling it would be immediate universal healthcare, with total coverage for CORVID-19 related issues and care, a massive increase in manufacture of ventilators (draft/nationalize every 3D Printing Service if need be), and making masks mandatory in public.

I don't see either happening.

At this point its "wear masks, accept the death count, vote out the leaders that fucked up out next election cycle, try to have them charged, and otherwise deal as best you can"
Its not quite that bleak, where we just have to accept either permanent martial law or several hundred thousand deaths every year.

A vaccine/eventual herd immunity is still a possibility (even if the vaccine doesn't cover every mutation of the disease, it could reduce the number of cases). There are also treatments in development that would lessen the effect of the disease, potentially.

However, a switch to a more socialist economy and universal health care is necessary, as is criminal prosecution of many government officials for their handling of the virus.
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"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Nicholas »

aerius wrote: 2020-05-07 09:57am I have a question: Given that there's no vaccine on the horizon and possibly no lasting immunity and thus no herd immunity if the early research posted mr friendly guy on the last page confirms, what options does that leave us with? Especially considering that Europe and North America have completely failed at containing the spread of the virus.
My read is that this leaves us with two options in Europe and North America.

We could encourage social distancing but let people do what they feel is in their best interests with each person deciding how to balance their physical health, their psychological health and their need for money and accept that this is going to mean the permanent presence of COVID-19 within the population. Expand the health care system to accommodate a significant increase in needed medical care. Accept that COVID-19 is going to be the top cause of death until a vaccine is developed.

Or we could plan for several months of mandatory intense social distancing (the punishment for violations being six months in jail or jail until social distancing ends, whichever is longer), a massive expansion in testing, government run locked facilities for everyone who tests COVID-19 positive (to prevent them from spreading it), and a massive contact tracing program to guide who gets tested. The experience of China indicates this could establish containment although given the larger scale of the problem I expect it would take six months.

I can't speak for Europe but I am confident that the US will go with option one because two cuts very very sharply against US culture. There are three major factors in the US that prevent two.

First, the US has a very high respect for the right to assemble for political protest. Mandatory intense social distancing will require that this right be suspended for the duration. This will trigger protests (we know this because social distancing requirements already are triggering protests). To get mandatory social distancing those protests will have to be suppressed, the protestors jailed, and the opposition broken. This has not been attempted in the US since the 1960s and hasn't been done successfully since the Civil War. Mass imprisonment of political protesters is not acceptable in the US.

Second, the US lacks any widely accepted moral language which would justify hurting individuals for the good of the whole. The strictly enforced rules that are required to prevent the spread of COVID-19 will create lots of tragic stories (I have heard of people in China who died because they were not permitted to travel for cancer treatment or because a caregiver was diagnosed with COVID-19 and prevented from continuing to care for them so they died of neglect). The Chinese government justifies that to its people based on the good of the whole. The US has no language that would let the US government do the same so such things are perceived as unjust violations of individual rights. Note, in the US the last attempt to appeal to such language was in opposition to anti-discrimination laws where it was argued that letting unwanted individuals (usually black) into a community would destroy the community. The US decided such discrimination was not tolerable and the communities in question mostly died.

Third, on multiple levels this is touching the issue of race and discrimination in the US and that makes quarantining the sick inconceivable. Quarantines were suggested when AIDS first came around and were denounced as discrimination. Science eventually told us quarantines were unnecessary to control AIDS but the charge of discrimination remains in our political memory. In addition COVID-19 is currently concentrated among the poor in urban areas (who can't social distance because they live too close together and are exposed since they live in the city) which means among the non-white population. Preventing the spread of COVID-19 in those populations would require quarantining (i.e. locking up) mostly non-white people. That will not be tolerated in the US in today's political environment.

Of course this is subject to change if things get bad enough, but bad enough in this case probably means the worst case scenarios come to pass. Two to three million dead in the US. At that point anything is possible and the US will come out of this a different country but unless that happens I am confident the US will chose to live with COVID-19. We are already moving in that direction.

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by The Romulan Republic »

One of Dickless's valets has tested positive- Trump and Pence have thus far tested negative (or so they say):

https://globalnews.ca/news/6916199/coro ... pence-test
WASHINGTON — A member of the military serving as one of President Donald Trump’s valets has tested positive for the coronavirus, the White House said Thursday. It said Trump and Vice President Mike Pence have since tested negative for the virus and “remain in good health.”

It marked the latest coronavirus scare for the president, and the first known instance where a person who has come in close proximity to the president has tested positive since several people present at his private Florida club were diagnosed with COVID-19 in early March. The person tested positive on Wednesday, the White House said.

White House spokesman Hogan Gidley said in a statement, “We were recently notified by the White House Medical Unit that a member of the United States Military, who works on the White House campus, has tested positive for Coronavirus.”

He added, “The President and the Vice President have since tested negative for the virus and they remain in great health.”

A person familiar with the matter said the member of the military who tested positive was one of the president’s valets. The person spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the matter publicly.

The White House instituted safety protocols nearly two months ago, including frequent temperature checks. Last month it began administering rapid COVID-19 tests to all those in close proximity to the president, with staffers being tested about once a week.

Several valets cater to the president and his guests at the White House, both in the West Wing and in the White House residence.
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"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Zaune »

Nicholas wrote: 2020-05-07 02:41pmThe strictly enforced rules that are required to prevent the spread of COVID-19 will create lots of tragic stories (I have heard of people in China who died because they were not permitted to travel for cancer treatment or because a caregiver was diagnosed with COVID-19 and prevented from continuing to care for them so they died of neglect). The Chinese government justifies that to its people based on the good of the whole. The US has no language that would let the US government do the same so such things are perceived as unjust violations of individual rights.
I'm pretty sure being told that you must allow your elderly relatives to die of neglect trapped in their homes for the greater good wouldn't fly in most countries, actually. Hell, I'm pretty sure that wouldn't fly in China.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Jub »

Zaune wrote: 2020-05-07 04:59pmI'm pretty sure being told that you must allow your elderly relatives to die of neglect trapped in their homes for the greater good wouldn't fly in most countries, actually. Hell, I'm pretty sure that wouldn't fly in China.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Eulogy »

Jub wrote: 2020-05-07 06:29pmI know that this is an emotional thing rather than a rational one, but fuck anybody who changes their answer to the trolly problem if a loved one, or even their own life, is involved. You always pull the lever and sacrifice the fewest lives possible.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick »

That's a noble ideal, but in real life the vast majority of those people won't meet that test, and even when someone does it can fuck them up mentally for the rest of their lives.

People ARE emotional.

Any system that fails to take that into account is not going to work very well, if at all.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

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