The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

[The Romulan Republic]

That's a noble ideal, but in real life the vast majority of those people won't meet that test, and even when someone does it can fuck them up mentally for the rest of their lives.

People ARE emotional.

Any system that fails to take that into account is not going to work very well, if at all.

Also the fact that real life dilemmas are seldom so simple as the two-dimensional trolley problem, an oversimplified abstraction which has only two clear-cut options.

[Zaune]

I know that this is an emotional thing rather than a rational one, but fuck anybody who changes their answer to the trolly problem if a loved one, or even their own life, is involved. You always pull the lever and sacrifice the fewest lives possible.

I'd just wait until the trolley was over the points before changing them, so it would derail and grind to a halt before hitting anyone.

[Batman]

What if it topples over sideways and grinds on killing 'everybody'?

[Nicholas]

The strictly enforced rules that are required to prevent the spread of COVID-19 will create lots of tragic stories (I have heard of people in China who died because they were not permitted to travel for cancer treatment or because a caregiver was diagnosed with COVID-19 and prevented from continuing to care for them so they died of neglect). The Chinese government justifies that to its people based on the good of the whole. The US has no language that would let the US government do the same so such things are perceived as unjust violations of individual rights.

I'm pretty sure being told that you must allow your elderly relatives to die of neglect trapped in their homes for the greater good wouldn't fly in most countries, actually. Hell, I'm pretty sure that wouldn't fly in China.

I might be wrong, but my understanding is the following arrangement did fly in China.

If you are out and about and have a fever or cough you get a COVID-19 test. You can't leave for a few hours until the test results come back. If the test results come back positive you go directly to a quarantine hospital and you will not be permitted to leave until two successive tests taken more then 24 hours apart come back negative. If you have obligations (such as a family member at home who requires your care) you can use a phone to try and get someone else to cover for you. If you can't find someone then your family member is out of luck.

Honestly if it were imposed that arrangement might fly in the US (at least for a little while) but I can't imagine the laws to put that into effect passing in the US. Can you?

Nicholas

[The Romulan Republic]

I know that this is an emotional thing rather than a rational one, but fuck anybody who changes their answer to the trolly problem if a loved one, or even their own life, is involved. You always pull the lever and sacrifice the fewest lives possible.

I'd just wait until the trolley was over the points before changing them, so it would derail and grind to a halt before hitting anyone.

I feel like this is what Batman would answer if someone made him answer the trolley problem somehow.

[mr friendly guy]

The plot thickens

https://www.francetvinfo.fr/sante/malad ... 52985.html

From google translate

Coronavirus: a first case of Covid-19 confirmed on December 2 in Alsace

The first case of coronavirus in France dates back to December 2. The head of the medical imaging department of the Albert-Schweitzer hospital in Colmar (Haut-Rhin) told franceinfo, Thursday, May 7, that a man hospitalized on that date for a "respiratory infection" was found to have Covid-19, through subsequent reviews. So far, a resident of Seine-Saint-Denis, who fell ill at the end of December, was considered the first person affected by Covid-19 in France.

>> Follow the latest information on the coronavirus pandemic in our live

The medical imaging department headed by Michel Schmitt "took over all the scanners" of the last six months, made "for trauma, tumors, heart and infectious pathologies", in order to check if they did not contain the "typical anomalies" of the Covid-19. The disease indeed causes "several lesions in both lungs", with an "appearance of lesions and disseminations that do not correspond to another pathology," he said to franceinfo.


Fifteen suspected cases between November and December
This new study of scanners has identified two cases of suspected coronavirus, on November 16 and 17. "We have one case on November 29, three cases on December 2, one case on December 10, one case on December 13, one case on December 27, two cases on January 3 and after, it gradually increases ...", details Michel Schmitt.

One of the suspected cases of December 2 was later confirmed by a Covid-19 test and is now "certain all data combined". The 57-year-old man, hospitalized "about a week", is now in good health. To date, it is unknown how he contracted the virus.

For the two suspected cases in November, the scanners have yet to be confirmed by other elements. "You have to contact the patients, see what has become of them, know their history and, if history justifies it, do a blood test and an antibody test," explains Michel Schmitt. In total, the study of scanners started "ten days ago" revealed "338 typical Covid-19 scanners between November 1 and April 30, 2020". The hospital is currently "cross-referencing" these data with screening tests, in order to confirm the suspected cases.

The first reported atypical pneumonia in China to the authorities was on december 26.

The more we find out about earlier cases, it seems to me its been around longer than we know, but its China that figured out it was due to a new virus, sequenced the genome etc but Western media jumped on blaming them, because...

[MKSheppard]

Link

MEXICO CITY (AP) - A hand-washing station and bright yellow signs warning of an area of "high infection" now greet the steady stream of hearses at the entrance to the San Nicolas Tolentino cemetery in a working-class neighborhood of this sprawling metropolis.

Funeral parlors and crematoriums in Iztapalapa, a borough of 2 million people, are working day and night to manage the surging number of dead in the capital´s hardest-hit corner.

Concern is growing that mixed messages about the seriousness of the pandemic from Mexico´s president and lax enforcement of social distancing are manifesting in what could be a frightening preview as infections begin to peak in Mexico City and its suburbs - where some 20 million people live in close quarters, jamming subways and buses, shopping in crowded markets and clustering around street food stalls.

On a recent morning, Rafael Hernández, who has sold tacos at the cemetery´s entrance for 40 years, said an average day before the pandemic might bring five or six hearses past his stand. "Today there have been 10 in an hour," he said.

Rafael Herrera said in his 25 years working in the crematorium next door he's never seen anything like it. They´ve had to add another shift, and funeral parlors are calling for crematoriums like his to run their ovens run 24 hours a day as Mexico City recommends and pays for the cremations of coronavirus victims.

"We can´t keep up," Herrera said. "We´re working from 6 in the morning to midnight."

Behind that surging demand are personal tragedies. People are falling sick, dying and being cremated often before families receive test results if they come at all.

Erika, a 42-year-old lawyer, lost her mother two weeks ago, her brother is on a ventilator and her husband was admitted to the hospital Monday complaining of difficulty breathing. Her mother, who was diabetic, died two days after starting to feel ill and was cremated before a coronavirus test was performed. Her death certificate lists "respiratory insufficiency, atypical pneumonia, likely COVID-19."

"The cruelest thing in all of this is not being able to honor or accompany your relative," said Erika, referring to the traditional gatherings in homes that attract dozens or hundreds of mourners.

She is awaiting test results on her brother.

"I think what´s happening to me is happening to a lot of families," said Erika, who didn't give her last name because she´s a criminal defense attorney and feared repercussions. She blamed a lack of early information from the government, saying that if the family had known her mother had the virus they would have taken more precautions. The family entered in a panic after her mother's death, but aside from her brother hasn´t been able to get tested and struggles to get information about hospitalized relatives.

"My father is devastated. He doesn´t sleep because of my brother. He doesn´t sleep because his wife just died. And yesterday in the time that my husband was admitted there were three deaths," she said. Her father was rushed to the hospital Wednesday with a fever, but later released.

In Mexico City, there are more than 7,500 positive cases and more than 600 deaths - about a quarter of the national total - though health authorities concede the real number of infections is many times higher.

And authorities and experts agree the worst is yet to come.

"We have to prepare ourselves for the hardest, ugliest part," said Dr. Mauricio Rodríguez, of Mexico´s National Autonomous University. There will be more hospitals filled to capacity and more deaths.

Rodríguez said there was a certain "schizophrenia" in the political messaging, because at the same time the government is urging people to prepare for the epidemic´s peak, they´re talking about relaxing measures to satisfy economic sectors.

He emphasized, however, that from a public health perspective, it is crucial now for people in the most affected areas - the capital metro area first among them - to stay inside, and isolate themselves if they have symptoms. He reminded people the virus can seriously sicken someone in very little time and with hospitals overwhelmed there may be nowhere to take them.

Mexico has extremely limited testing compared to other countries, which makes experts believe the country's infections are much higher. Mexico City Mayor Claudia Sheinbaum said recently the city was performing only about 700 tests per day. The government has defended its limited testing of only people meeting a list of criteria, but it has left a growing number of families unsure of what killed their loved ones.

Guadalupe Gutiérrez´s 38-year-old son Gabriel Ulises Martínez was cremated this week with the family still uncertain of what he died from. She said he was hospitalized for 11 days with heart problems and flu-like symptoms but they were advised to cremate him because he might have had coronavirus.

The usually bustling streets of Iztapalapa are noticeably quieter these days. There is palpable worry, especially among the majority of its residents who can´t afford to stay home.

Among them is Christian Antonio Castillo, the 27-year-old cook in the kitchen of public hospital No. 47.

When his father was admitted to his hospital with low oxygen levels, Castillo decided he should no longer sleep at home, where some 20 family members - nearly half of them diabetic - live together in a house with a shared kitchen and bathrooms.

Now Castillo sleeps in his car outside the hospital, next to a tent where anxious relatives wait day and night for word of their loved ones. As he spoke, three women cried together and another jumped when she heard her relative´s name called. Outside a nearby door, the hospital´s dead continued to exit one by one.

"I always thought I´d be the first to catch it," Castillo said. "Now we´re all nervous, because the whole family was living with him," he said of his father, who is on a ventilator with damaged lungs as the family awaits his test result.

"The test is the least of our worries," he said. "I just pray this ends."

[mr friendly guy]

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/07/coronav ... ponse.html

China gets top score as citizens rank their governments’ response to the coronavirus outbreak
PUBLISHED WED, MAY 6 202011:45 PM EDT
Karen Gilchrist
KEY POINTS
The majority of citizens are unhappy with their leaders’ response to the coronavirus pandemic, according to a new report.
China and Vietnam had the highest rated leadership in a list led by Eastern countries.
Just seven out of 23 countries would give their leaders a score of more than 50% across key metrics including politics and business.

As countries across the globe are left grappling with the coronavirus crisis, most people are not satisfied with their leaders’ response to the outbreak, according to a new report.

Citizens from just seven out of 23 countries rate their governments’ coronavirus containment measures as broadly positive, based on the “Global Crisis Perceptions” index released Wednesday by insights agencies Blackbox Research and Toluna.

The research, which surveyed approximately 12,500 people across 23 countries between April 3 and 19, asked respondents to rate their nations across four key indicators: national political leadership, corporate leadership, community and media.

China, where the virus is thought to have originated, ranked highest in the citizens’ survey, with a score of 85 out of 100. The world’s second-largest economy was followed by Vietnam (77), the United Arab Emirates (59) and India (59), in a list which saw Asian countries take the top spots.

New Zealand (56), which has received international acclaim for its handling of the virus and last week began easing restrictions, was the only Western country to score higher than the global average of 45. Australia (43), the U.S. (41), and all four western European countries surveyed — Germany (41), the U.K. (37), Italy (36) and France (26) — all ranked below the global average.

Countries’ coronavirus response ranking
China — 86
Vietnam — 77
UAE — 59
India — 59
Malaysia — 58
New Zealand — 56
Taiwan — 50
Philippines — 49
Indonesia — 48
Singapore — 48
South Africa — 47
Australia — 43
Germany — 41
U.S — 41
Mexico — 37
U.K. — 37
Iran — 36
Thailand — 36
Italy — 36
South Korea — 31
Hong Kong — 27
France — 26
Japan — 16

A dent to national psyches
The largely dissatisfactory response, from Western countries in particular, could reflect a hit to national psyches in terms of their expectations about preparedness for unexpected events, noted David Black, founder and chief executive officer of Blackbox Research.

“For many of these countries, this pandemic is unprecedented. Governments are still coming to terms with a crisis they did not expect, and public confidence suffered as a result,” said Black.

“Meanwhile, a significant part of Asia has had their leadership shaped by past epidemics, such as SARS and MERS,” referring to two other deadly respiratory diseases caused by strains of coronavirus that were predominantly in Asia and the Middle East, respectively.

In terms of the business response to the pandemic, citizens of China and Vietnam were alone in giving their countries’ corporations a response rating of over 50. Meanwhile, respondents in France (10), Hong Kong (7), and Japan (6), rated their business response the poorest.

The report also found a disparity in major economies’ ability to emerge from the crisis. The majority (85%) of Chinese people said they believe their country will come out of the crisis stronger, compared to less than half (41%) of Americans.

China is clearly brainwashing its people. There is no way they had a better response to countries who took longer to lockdown, still go out to the beach during a pandemic, protests during a pandemic, call COVID a hoax, and whose leader thinks injecting bleach cures the coronavirus. No sirree.

[Oscar Wilde]

Ah yes, the government that has a stance on political dissent that can be summed up as 'your subscription to life has been terminated.' I know what it comes to 'people that I trust' they're right up there near the top. I mean hey, other governments do bad things too so that means that the one that thinks the internet should be censored because how dare people try to think or learn about shitty things in said country's history. Or learn falsehoods anyway. 1989? Nothing happened. Everyone was just on vacation. Great Firewall? Again, who cares about information! That stuff just serves to scare you anyway. You are not ignorant if you are educated by the party.

Long reign Winnie the Pooh :^)

[Batman]

I'd just wait until the trolley was over the points before changing them, so it would derail and grind to a halt before hitting anyone.

I feel like this is what Batman would answer if someone made him answer the trolley problem somehow.

It would be if I had ascertained beforehand it WOULD grind to a halt before hitting anyone. See my previous answer.

[chimericoncogene]

The way this is going, middle and low income countries are going to be hit the hardest.

[mr friendly guy]

Ah yes, the government that has a stance on political dissent that can be summed up as 'your subscription to life has been terminated.' I know what it comes to 'people that I trust' they're right up there near the top. I mean hey, other governments do bad things too so that means that the one that thinks the internet should be censored because how dare people try to think or learn about shitty things in said country's history. Or learn falsehoods anyway. 1989? Nothing happened. Everyone was just on vacation. Great Firewall? Again, who cares about information! That stuff just serves to scare you anyway. You are not ignorant if you are educated by the party.

Which has nothing to do with whether they did a better job than a lot of Western governments and you know it. Hey if I stooped to you level, I would go, lets trust the governments that gave us imaginary WMDs in Iraq. But they really did have them in there.

Speaking of internet censorship, go post pro Suleimani statements on faceook and see how far you get. Answer, not very far because Facebook has already said they will censor in line with US law. Hypocrisy much.

Long reign Winnie the Pooh :^)

You do realise that's western propaganda right, that they censor Winnie the Pooh right? No seriously. Look on the Chinese equivalent to google, type in Winnie the Pooh and its pictures appear. Go on do it next. Oh wait, we don't need to take even a minute to verify these claims about a geopolitical rival, just accept it. Like WMDs in Iraq.

[Oscar Wilde]

Okay
So people that I didn't defend did things wrong that I also didn't defend

You've refuted absolutely nothing so concession accepted I guess? :^)

[mr friendly guy]

Okay
So people that I didn't defend did things wrong that I also didn't defend

You've refuted absolutely nothing so concession accepted I guess? :^)

No, more like you're bringing up irrelevant stuff dipshit. I brought up Western incompetence when dealing with the coronavirus to compare to the Chinese response, and your first instinct is to bring up Tiananmen which has nothing to do with how the Chinese responded to the pandemic.

If I stooped to your level I would be saying, what do you expect these governments to do fact base methods to fight coronavirus, these are the same guys that gave us the fact based WMDs in Iraq. The very fact you realise its irrelevant when I use it as example for the West as a demonstration of stooping to your level, but do it with the Chinese just shows the blatant double standard you have.

So yes, concession accepted moron.

Also waiting for you to tell us what you think was poor about the Chinese response to coronavirus, but we both know its easier to bring up Tiananmen and irrelevant and false claims of Winnie the Pooh censorship right? Because you have no case.

[Tribble]

The first reported atypical pneumonia in China to the authorities was on december 26.

The more we find out about earlier cases, it seems to me its been around longer than we know, but its China that figured out it was due to a new virus, sequenced the genome etc but Western media jumped on blaming them, because...

I know I'm going out on a limb here, but just maybe doing things like arresting doctors who were trying to warn people about the coronavirus was a bad idea, PR wise. Whether it was incompetency at some level and/or deliberate policy it gave the impression that China was well aware of the disease but did its best to suppress the knowledge of it for as long as possible. And for all we know still suppressing news of it now, though at least the Chinese government recognized that was a screwup and eventually exonerated them.

Of course, the US Idiot-In Chief and his cronies are still blatantly trying their best to disregard the problem while blaming others for their failures. Whether or not the coronavirus has been sufficiently dealt with in China, their government takes it seriously.

[Zaune]

I might be wrong, but my understanding is the following arrangement did fly in China.

If you are out and about and have a fever or cough you get a COVID-19 test. You can't leave for a few hours until the test results come back. If the test results come back positive you go directly to a quarantine hospital and you will not be permitted to leave until two successive tests taken more then 24 hours apart come back negative. If you have obligations (such as a family member at home who requires your care) you can use a phone to try and get someone else to cover for you. If you can't find someone then your family member is out of luck.

Honestly if it were imposed that arrangement might fly in the US (at least for a little while) but I can't imagine the laws to put that into effect passing in the US. Can you?

Nicholas

With the exception of the "anything that inconveniences me is Communism" brigade, I can think of a very easy way to make that acceptable to most people in the US with just one simple tweak... If someone who has to be quarantined has a relative they care for, inform Social Services and arrange for some assistance. I mean, do you guys not have voluntary organisations helping the elderly and infirm? In this county we've got British Red Cross aid workers delivering supplies and doing welfare checks with the aid of volunteer drivers from a 4x4 owners club, using a radio dispatch system that RAYNET and the county fire brigade had ready to go in the event of an emergency situation. Surely a country that has earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes and massive wildfires on a regular basis has at least some civil defence plans in place?

Forcibly quarantining people and telling them, "Sorry about your disabled grandma starving to death lying in her own filth, it's for the greater good" is the kind of pointless counterproductive callousness pretending to be pragmatism that we make fun of Tom Kratman's protagonists for.

I feel like this is what Batman would answer if someone made him answer the trolley problem somehow.

I'm hardly Batman, I just know a bit about railways.

Either way, either the best or worst thing about the trolley problem as a thought experiment is that it only presents an ethical dilemma if you're unwilling to improvise, think outside the box or just plain cheat.

[Nicholas]

With the exception of the "anything that inconveniences me is Communism" brigade, I can think of a very easy way to make that acceptable to most people in the US with just one simple tweak... If someone who has to be quarantined has a relative they care for, inform Social Services and arrange for some assistance. I mean, do you guys not have voluntary organisations helping the elderly and infirm? In this county we've got British Red Cross aid workers delivering supplies and doing welfare checks with the aid of volunteer drivers from a 4x4 owners club, using a radio dispatch system that RAYNET and the county fire brigade had ready to go in the event of an emergency situation. Surely a country that has earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes and massive wildfires on a regular basis has at least some civil defence plans in place?

Forcibly quarantining people and telling them, "Sorry about your disabled grandma starving to death lying in her own filth, it's for the greater good" is the kind of pointless counterproductive callousness pretending to be pragmatism that we make fun of Tom Kratman's protagonists for.

Agreed, there are systems in place that could care for the vast majority of the people affected by this. Given that the people talking about deaths as a result of quarantines in China are talking about a handful of isolated cases there were clearly also systems to care for the affected in China. Systems that mostly worked. Yet we must be realistic, they won't always work. The last option for caring for children is going to be the foster care system, where a horrifying percentage of children end up being abused. And being separated from their parents traumatizes children. So lots of people would be hurt.

My point was not that many of the problems couldn't be mitigated. It was that the US doesn't have a moral language to justify the problems caused by mandatory quarantine that cannot be mitigated and is politically incapable of setting up a system to impose mandatory quarantine on the sick. Even when we know doing so would save lives. If imposed with care and skill by a trusted authority it might fly for long enough to control COVID-19 but unless enough people are killed to radically change American society it will not be implemented by the American people.

Nicholas

[Oscar Wilde]

No, more like you're bringing up irrelevant stuff dipshit. I brought up Western incompetence when dealing with the coronavirus to compare to the Chinese response, and your first instinct is to bring up Tiananmen which has nothing to do with how the Chinese responded to the pandemic.

Citing precedent.

If I stooped to your level I would be saying, what do you expect these governments to do fact base methods to fight coronavirus, these are the same guys that gave us the fact based WMDs in Iraq. The very fact you realise its irrelevant when I use it as example for the West as a demonstration of stooping to your level, but do it with the Chinese just shows the blatant double standard you have.

False Equivalency

I didn't try to say 'the west has been completely on the level and completely forthright about the coronavirus,' so bringing up the WMDs in Iraq (was that a matter of censorship?) is irrelevant because it doesn't connect to anything.

I DID say (in essence) 'maybe the government that censors things isn't one to trust.'

You can apply that to any government that you want, frankly. I don't give a shit if ifs China or the US or anywhere.

Also waiting for you to tell us what you think was poor about the Chinese response to coronavirus, but we both know its easier to bring up Tiananmen and irrelevant and false claims of Winnie the Pooh censorship right? Because you have no case.

Whether or not the coronavirus has been sufficiently dealt with in China, their government takes it seriously.

I'll go with mostly this. Maybe more 'takes the perception of what they're doing seriously.' But the key operative phrase is 'whether or not.'

[mr friendly guy]

The first reported atypical pneumonia in China to the authorities was on december 26.

The more we find out about earlier cases, it seems to me its been around longer than we know, but its China that figured out it was due to a new virus, sequenced the genome etc but Western media jumped on blaming them, because...

I know I'm going out on a limb here, but just maybe doing things like arresting doctors who were trying to warn people about the coronavirus was a bad idea, PR wise. Whether it was incompetency at some level and/or deliberate policy it gave the impression that China was well aware of the disease but did its best to suppress the knowledge of it for as long as possible. And for all we know still suppressing news of it now, though at least the Chinese government recognized that was a screwup and eventually exonerated them.

Of course, the US Idiot-In Chief and his cronies are still blatantly trying their best to disregard the problem while blaming others for their failures. Whether or not the coronavirus has been sufficiently dealt with in China, their government takes it seriously.

There are a few problems with that narrative. One Li Wenliang was not arrested. He was brought to the police station for questioning and signed a statement saying he wouldn't spread his claim. It was heavy handed (a simple explanation asking him to tell his followers to be patient while the government figures it out would have suffice), but this claim of being arrested is bullshit mate. He was let go after signing and went back to work. Seriously this bullshit has got to stop.

Secondly, China was aware there was something going on, but that doesn't mean they knew everything about it at the time. It is a new virus. His claim that it was SARS was wrong. He didn't even intended it to go public, he found out that the government was suspecting a SARS like illness from depending on who you ask, either patient notes or a public bulletin board which goes against "cover up."

Thirdly - supppress the knowledge. Ok, if there is time travel. Look at the dates mate. When did Li Wenliang's wechat post go public. It was in January. When was Chinese authorities aware of a new disease. In December. WHO was informed on 31 december, and US scientists were in touch with Chinese colleagues on New years day. It makes more sense they asked him not to say it was SARS (in a heavy handed way which I disapprove of) when they were still working out what the hell was going on. Or, if you're uncharitable, you could say the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing, and while some Chinese government actors were quite open, others were not. Regardless, its bullshit to claim it suppressed the knowledge when it already gotten out.

At best you could say that if everyone believed it was SARS, they could have take government warnings about wearing masks more seriously, which maybe the view the Chinese now take. Or, it could have made it worse with people fleeing Wuhan before the lockdown came in place.

Now I don't expect you to know about the dates unless you have some interest in this, but I expected journalists if they are going to make the claim, to at least check the dates rather than relying on time travel argument.

Fourthly - can you explain how he was trying to warn people when it was due a LEAKED PRIVATE chat. This whistle blower narrative doesn't make sense. He was warning his colleagues and not the general public that there may be a new disease. Its western propaganda to describe him as a "whistle blower."

The fact was there was plenty of warnings made by Chinese authorities about this new disease which gradually escalated as they started to know more.

[mr friendly guy]

Citing precedent.

Yes because managing a pandemic is the same as breaking up protesters.

No its not relevant, you brought it up as a smear. I focussed on what Western governments did in managing COVID 19.You brought up irrelevant things, and you can't even explain why its relevant.

False Equivalency

I didn't try to say 'the west has been completely on the level and completely forthright about the coronavirus,' so bringing up the WMDs in Iraq (was that a matter of censorship?) is irrelevant because it doesn't connect to anything.

Ha ha ha. Reading comprehension isn't your strong point is it? WMDs was to point out the US uses non fact based approaches, not as an example of censorship, you lying shit for brains. I brought up the Suleimani example as US censorship you stupid fuck. At least get that part right. Were you dropped on the head one time too many as a kid?

So even by your standards, WMDs is relevant because its citing precedent for using non fact based approaches, like the non fact approach of injecting bleach to cure coronavirus. When can I expect you to walk back the false equivalency claim. Wait, do you even know what that means?

I DID say (in essence) 'maybe the government that censors things isn't one to trust.'

No one said our evaluation is based on trust alone dumbass. Haven't you heard of trust, but verify.

You can apply that to any government that you want, frankly. I don't give a shit if ifs China or the US or anywhere.

Strange, you keep on getting defensive about Western government atrocities by saying false equivalence or some other bullshit when I bring it up, even though it was used purely to illustrate your propensity to use irrelevant smears, and not as my own criticism of their handling of the pandemic. Funny that isn't it.

[madd0ct0r]

I've noticed a fairly heavy handed racist streak in my colleagues responses. They flat out cannot believe that Vietnam has kept it under control when the UK didn't.
I've had one colleague (who has never read a news story on nam in his life) state that "it can't be lower, their government must be just saying that".

Charitably, I can only assume people are stuck on watlr film imagery or the world when they finished school and simply have not processed the improvements in some countries in the last thirty-forty years.

[mr friendly guy]

I've noticed a fairly heavy handed racist streak in my colleagues responses. They flat out cannot believe that Vietnam has kept it under control when the UK didn't.
I've had one colleague (who has never read a news story on nam in his life) state that "it can't be lower, their government must be just saying that".

Charitably, I can only assume people are stuck on watlr film imagery or the world when they finished school and simply have not processed the improvements in some countries in the last thirty-forty years.

One of the things you here, is that any western expert who comments that China did a good job, is now a Chinese puppet. That includes large numbers of WHO and also we can now add the chief the Editor in chief of the Lancet Richard Horton. They just cannot accept that an Asian nation can do better than a Western one in some things and from your own experience, they apply that to Vietnam as well. And then they cover up their racism with, its not about the people, its the government. Fortunately for them, there are ethnocentric westerners who still buy it.

I mean here is a simple question to ask such people. Why do you think the country that used lockdowns earlier, has stricter social distancing protocols, whose government didn't waste time proposing herd immunity bullshit nor pretending it will "go away by April", and that a country who gives hazmat suit type PPEs vs a country whose medial staff are forced to use GARBAGE BAGS due to lack of PPE, has lower number of cases than the country that didn't do so?

[K. A. Pital]

I've noticed a fairly heavy handed racist streak in my colleagues responses. They flat out cannot believe that Vietnam has kept it under control when the UK didn't.
I've had one colleague (who has never read a news story on nam in his life) state that "it can't be lower, their government must be just saying that".

Charitably, I can only assume people are stuck on watlr film imagery or the world when they finished school and simply have not processed the improvements in some countries in the last thirty-forty years.

That is very charitable of you. The more likely explanation is that they still are thinking fully in terms of the racist-colonialist framework built by ruling classes to justify the world system & oppression, where “educated rich/white people” (FW nations) are there to educate & uplift “savages” (anyone poorer than FW / anyone not following in lockstep the global capitalist strategies of development).

[madd0ct0r]

I thought that was what I said?

[K. A. Pital]

I thought that was what I said?

Indeed, I would like to underscore “very” in very charitable, it goes beyond a small courtesy and forgives a lot