Avator: Last Airbender - Did Iroh commit war crimesl?

[paladin]

I saw the topic on Facebook under "The Legend of Korra Fan Group"

Did Iroh commit war crimes?

[bilateralrope]

It's been a while since I last watched it. Could you elaborate a bit on the incident(s) in question ?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Moreover, what legal/moral standards are you basing this on? You can't realistically use our modern 21st century definitions for a completely different universe.

[Batman]

Excuse me? We do that all the bloody time.

[Eternal_Freedom]

And it's just as dumb. This isn't some alternative-history Earth, or some human-derived SF civilisation that will have at least some link to current legal rules, this is a totally different universe with magic and shit (yeah I know it's "bending" but it's magic).

Sure, we can say that xyz actions constitute war crimes by our standards today but that's not the same as a blanket "xyz committed war crimes" is it? Given that we can't always agree on what counts as a war crime ourselves with stuff that actually happened, making such a judgment on Avatar or anything else is ludicrous.

Plus the OP just asked the question, with no examples in mind, no comment at all beyond "did they?" That's why I asked what standards we were judging it on.

[paladin]

Maybe a Mod could edit this thread and commit this reply with my original?

It's been a while since I last watched it. Could you elaborate a bit on the incident(s) in question ?

Unfortunately, the thread on Facebook did not mention anything specific to prove that Iroh had committed any war crimes.

I did a Google search and found this on Tumblr https://kidbumi.tumblr.com/post/1738359 ... r-criminal

Yall are willfully delusional behind Iroh, and it’s disgusting.

He’s a likable, sympathetic, fictional character; I get it. In just the context of what we see him do in canon, even I like him.

But then I think for more than four seconds about what we know he did and was committed to do, and I recognize that he should at the very least be held accountable for his actions.

Iroh:

• Was completely on board with a legacy of world domination - complete with TWO genocides - until he was old and gray. He only changed 6 years before Aang returned.
• Must have been so vicious and terrifying that when he said he eradicated the last dragons with his bare hands, nobody questioned him, and everybody took him at his word
• Laid siege to a city architecturally designed to use poor people as human shields for the wealthy and the powerful. What part of that is not intentionally murdering citizens? Or at least not valuing their lives enough to attempt more covert operations?
• Believed so much in his family’s manifest destiny that he couldn’t even imagine that his visions of taking Ba Sing Se were anything other than divine guidance and approval for him to be the one to finally conquer the world
• Must have been so vicious and indomitable that even Ozai - who believed himself powerful enough to oppose the Avatar, their closest and most tangible approximation to a god - didn’t want those problems until he was absolutely sure Iroh was broken. Think about that for a second.

Iroh was SO BAD. Even. Ozai. Didn’t. Want. No. Smoke.

The two genocides would be war crimes but the Air Nomad genocide happened before Iroh would have been born and I don't know what the second genocide refers to.

[bilateralrope]

Unfortunately, the thread on Facebook did not mention anything specific to prove that Iroh had committed any war crimes.

So you started this with nothing.

I did a Google search and found this on Tumblr https://kidbumi.tumblr.com/post/1738359 ... r-criminal

At least there are some points to discuss. Though you're not going to go far if all you've got is copy pasting others arguments.

Was completely on board with a legacy of world domination - complete with TWO genocides - until he was old and gray. He only changed 6 years before Aang returned.

Which genocides were this ?
The air nomads was before he was born. Ozai's planned genocide of the Earth Kingdom was Ozai's plan.

Must have been so vicious and terrifying that when he said he eradicated the last dragons with his bare hands, nobody questioned him, and everybody took him at his word

That just shows he has a reputation as a skilled combatant. Nothing more.

Laid siege to a city architecturally designed to use poor people as human shields for the wealthy and the powerful. What part of that is not intentionally murdering citizens? Or at least not valuing their lives enough to attempt more covert operations?

This could be worthy of discussion. Though I don't see how covert operations had are going to take territory without an army backing them up, so you'll need to elaborate on how you think siege warfare is a war crime.

Believed so much in his family’s manifest destiny that he couldn’t even imagine that his visions of taking Ba Sing Se were anything other than divine guidance and approval for him to be the one to finally conquer the world

There is a difference between conquering and committing war crimes.

Must have been so vicious and indomitable that even Ozai - who believed himself powerful enough to oppose the Avatar, their closest and most tangible approximation to a god - didn’t want those problems until he was absolutely sure Iroh was broken. Think about that for a second.

Remember that Ozai only felt himself strong enough to oppose the Avatar during a comet that significantly boosted all fire bending. The timing of the comet is what decided when Ozai attempted his genocide.

[Solauren]

Let's rip this apart...
1. Was completely on board with a legacy of world domination - complete with TWO genocides - until he was old and gray. He only changed 6 years before Aang returned.

We have no details on the siege on Ba Sing Se. All indications are that the Fire Armies never came close to breaching the walls.
How else would the leadership of the Earth Kingdom kept the King, and apparently alot of the citizens, unaware of the Siege?
It wasn't until Azula managed a coup'de'at that Ba Sing Se fell.

It doesn't sound like he was trying seriously to take the city, by any standards. (See below)

2 Must have been so vicious and terrifying that when he said he eradicated the last dragons with his bare hands, nobody questioned him, and everybody took him at his word

And he LIED about having done it. Iroh was probably a skilled fighter (as evidenced by his getting in shape during the series and kicking ass on the way out of his prison), so people believed him. Also, he was the heir to the Fire Kingdom at the time, so no one was going to call him on it.
In a feudal society, that gets you killed.

3. Laid siege to a city architecturally designed to use poor people as human shields for the wealthy and the powerful. What part of that is not intentionally murdering citizens? Or at least not valuing their lives enough to attempt more covert operations?

Um, no. That city was surrounded by a structure that makes the Great wall of China look pathetic, and then was fields of food. That is not 'use the citizens as human shields'. The most fuedal asian cities I've seen pictures or maps of, the palace was simply in the center, and elevated, so everyone could look up at the ruler in reverence, and it was easier to defend in case of invasion or revolt. (It's called the high ground...)


4. Believed so much in his family’s manifest destiny that he couldn’t even imagine that his visions of taking Ba Sing Se were anything other than divine guidance and approval for him to be the one to finally conquer the world

Really? Was he even seriously trying?

5. Must have been so vicious and indomitable that even Ozai - who believed himself powerful enough to oppose the Avatar, their closest and most tangible approximation to a god - didn’t want those problems until he was absolutely sure Iroh was broken. Think about that for a second.

WRONG. Ozai didn't go against the Avatar until he had the power of a Comet backing him up. He even said he didn't have a chance against the Avatar without it.

He didn't challenge Iroh, because he couldn't challenge him legally. That's probably why Iroh's son died, and then the reigning Firelord was murdered.
To change the order of succession, as he couldn't just challenge Iroh to a fight to inherit. That's confusing a legal trick, with avoiding a fight.

Quite frankly, I have to wonder if the person that made those points actually watched and paid attention to Avatar, or read a bad summary somewhere and decided to troll.

[Ralin]

We have no details on the siege on Ba Sing Se. All indications are that the Fire Armies never came close to breaching the walls.
How else would the leadership of the Earth Kingdom kept the King, and apparently alot of the citizens, unaware of the Siege?
It wasn't until Azula managed a coup'de'at that Ba Sing Se fell.

It doesn't sound like he was trying seriously to take the city, by any standards.

Failing doesn't mean he wasn't trying. We know that some fighting was going on. During one of the flashbacks we see him give Zuko that dagger he took from a surrendering Earth Kingdom general. If a general surrendered then presumably an army or an important fortress surrendered with him, so its likely one or more significant battles were fought.

During the show Iroh talks about how he was defeated at Ba Sing Se and never says anything to the effect that he wasn't really trying. Which doesn't prove he wasn't, but it seems like something that would have come up when he was trying to make a point to Zuko.

He was infamous enough to be recognized and seen as a priority target by random Earth Kingdom soldiers.

Maintaining a siege for nearly two years is a considerable effort and they were presumably fighting off forces from else where in the Earth Kingdom trying to drive them off. Wiki isn't the most reliable source, but I'm checking and it says they breached the Outer Wall and this was considered a big step forward and really only seems to have stopped because Iroh was broken by his son dying in combat.

So I'd want to see stronger proof before believing Iroh was half-assing it.

[Lord Revan]

Few things we need to remember is that Iroh was raised in the Fire Nation during a time when communications were limited at best, no radios or anything like that present until several decades later, so even someone as enlightened as Iroh would have limited knowledge of other nations.

Also those massive walls Ba Sign Se has makes any covert operations at best extremely difficult, even if Iroh was not half-assing the siege getting thru those walls is no trivial matter.

[bilateralrope]

Moreover, what legal/moral standards are you basing this on? You can't realistically use our modern 21st century definitions for a completely different universe.

Lets start with seeing if Iroh committed a war crime under modern definitions. Then, if we find one, discuss if that's appropriate for the kind of warfare he had to fight in.

There is one thing mentioned that seems to have room for disagreement. But I'm only going to get involved if someone starts by explaining why they think it's a war crime.

[Adam Reynolds]

I'm surprised they didn't argue the obvious one: he endorsed the use of child soldiers(the heroes). While his sixteen year old nephew was not bad by historical standards, sending a twelve year old into battle instead of taking the responsibility of fighting that battle yourself probably is a war crime. Obviously the fact that said twelve year old is The Avatar makes this an unusual situation, but going by the letter of the law it is a better argument than most of these.

Though there is also no indication that he wasn't serious about his attempts to capture Ba Sing Se. The most reasonable story is that he quit after losing his son and realizing the damage he and the fire nation were doing to the world firsthand.This caused him to question everything that the Fire Nation had been doing in terms of the bigger picture and join the White Lotus.

Is there any indication about when he faked the death of the last dragons? Was this before or after the death of his son? If he had indeed done this before, that would be a flaw in the above logic.

[Lord Revan]

Though there is also no indication that he wasn't serious about his attempts to capture Ba Sing Se. The most reasonable story is that he quit after losing his son and realizing the damage he and the fire nation were doing to the world firsthand.This caused him to question everything that the Fire Nation had been doing in terms of the bigger picture and join the White Lotus.

Is there any indication about when he faked the death of the last dragons? Was this before or after the death of his son? If he had indeed done this before, that would be a flaw in the above logic.

Well I'd say it's only a flaw if you assume he was full on Fire Nation fanatic before Ba Sing Sei but if Iroh was already leaning towards being more respectful and merciful towards others then your typical Fire Nation noble before the seige just not enough to defy the Fire Lord or question the Fire Nation philosophy and Ba Sing Sei was the straw that broke the camel's back and lead Iroh to fully abanddon the core ideals of his father and brother and even oppose those.

[Solauren]

We have no details on the siege on Ba Sing Se. All indications are that the Fire Armies never came close to breaching the walls.
How else would the leadership of the Earth Kingdom kept the King, and apparently alot of the citizens, unaware of the Siege?
It wasn't until Azula managed a coup'de'at that Ba Sing Se fell.

It doesn't sound like he was trying seriously to take the city, by any standards.

Failing doesn't mean he wasn't trying. We know that some fighting was going on. During one of the flashbacks we see him give Zuko that dagger he took from a surrendering Earth Kingdom general. If a general surrendered then presumably an army or an important fortress surrendered with him, so its likely one or more significant battles were fought.

During the show Iroh talks about how he was defeated at Ba Sing Se and never says anything to the effect that he wasn't really trying. Which doesn't prove he wasn't, but it seems like something that would have come up when he was trying to make a point to Zuko.

He was infamous enough to be recognized and seen as a priority target by random Earth Kingdom soldiers.

Maintaining a siege for nearly two years is a considerable effort and they were presumably fighting off forces from else where in the Earth Kingdom trying to drive them off. Wiki isn't the most reliable source, but I'm checking and it says they breached the Outer Wall and this was considered a big step forward and really only seems to have stopped because Iroh was broken by his son dying in combat.

So I'd want to see stronger proof before believing Iroh was half-assing it.

I'd also want to see stronger proof that he wasn't half-assing it. I mean, we saw several attempts on the Earth kingdom during the Siege, and they would have failed if not for Team Avatar being present. For fucks sake, that nut-job Azula managed to take the city.

[Ralin]

I don't think that's really an accurate description of what happened? When Aang and company arrived they fended off an attack that almost succeeded as well as Iroh had a decade prior. Do you think that the Fire Nation general in charge of the siege then was half-assing it too? Azula's a prodigy and she took over the city thanks to various plot event related things that Iroh wasn't able to take advantage of.

[Solauren]

Let us agree we don't have enough information about Iroh's siege to know for sure? Hell, he could have half assed it most of the time, until he knew an Imperial overseer was around, and the attack that nearly succeeded, was done because he knew an overseer was around.

[chimericoncogene]

I saw the topic on Facebook under "The Legend of Korra Fan Group"

Did Iroh commit war crimes?

He has always been depicted as an honorable and compassionate man, with a healthy respect for his opponents both as individuals and as soldiers.

There is nothing in the series that suggests he commited war crimes, or advocated for acts that would have been considered criminal in-universe.

Preindustrial/colonial warfare was typically brutal (What the heck constitutes a war crime? Off the top of my head, I would suspect executing prisoners en masse and ordering mass rapes and mass killings would be criminal, but general pillaging for supplies and starving out cities in sieges would have been standard procedure and totally acceptable).

However, I suspect that given his depiction in the series, he would have been the sort of military leader who used the minimum necessary force to accomplish missions with minimal casualties, both friendly and hostile. In other words, a good soldier and a good commander.

War crimes may easily have occurred under his watch, but I suspect he would have been intolerant to war crimes within his command, and his attitude would likely have permeated down the chain of command (considering the high esteem in which he seems to have been held).

[Lord Revan]

We should remember that even in modern days accurate information about your enemy is near impossible to get, more so when you have to rely on messangers and shouting to get that information to the commanders.

Also without proper refrigiration or fast transports getting supplies from the "homefront" is quite hard as well (while the Fire Nation had steamships they seemed to rely on pack animals for ground transports) and it would effect on your tactics.

Something that are now considered warcrimes are so because there's no need for them, for example generally speaking there's no need for foraging for modern militaries but until the late 1800s or so it was pretty much a must as transporting enough (semi-)fresh food to feed your army just wasn't possible it would spoil before it got there.

[Solauren]

Which is why wars were such brutal and drawn out affairs.

Most often, after you captured a swath of territory, you stayed there to rebuild it and add it to your supply line. That's what causes so much damage. One set of fortifications would be destroyed (the defender), then the invader would set up his own to add the newly occupied territory to his own, so he could use it as a supply base to further the advance.

That didn't change until last century, and really, is was only changed by German motorized tactics in World War 2. It was no possible to just go on straight to your ultimate target until you meet heavy resistance.

Up until then, even in World War 1, the east side occupied France was providing supplies for the Germans, and the rest of it for the allies.

Come to think of it, that explains another reason why Iroh's siege last so long. The farms that fed the capital of the Earth Kingdom were inside the walls. Iroh had to occupy most of the Earth Kingdom first to get supplies to lay siege to the capital, and then he had to effectively run the Earth kingdom in order to keep supplies up.

No wonder Ozai resorted to a coup'de'ta to take the throne. Iroh had military AND governing experience. He knew damn well that Iroh would make a perfect ruler for the Fire Kingdom, and would take over grooming the next in line, Zuko, for the throne, cutting Ozai out completely.

Ironic that Iroh still managed to mold Zuko into a good leader and ruler.

[bilateralrope]

Don't forget that earth benders are really good at digging tunnels and closing them up behind them. Giving them lots of opportunities to sneak stuff in and out through the siege.

Or sneak a few benders out to mess with the attackers. Find the road the fire nation is going to have supplies arrive on and put a large ditch in it. Then get back inside the walls before the fire nation knows the road is blocked.