New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

[Eternal_Freedom]

That is a bigger problem than just SW. Exposition=bad, time-wasting, when we could be having big explosions!

Though the ST let me down badly on that front - we still didn't get a decent space battle with big capships wailing on each other. Closest we've gotten to that is Endor, Coruscant and Scarif.

[Captain Seafort]

Though the ST let me down badly on that front - we still didn't get a decent space battle with big capships wailing on each other. Closest we've gotten to that is Endor, Coruscant and Scarif.

Are you suggesting that Den Helder in space doesn't count as a proper battle?

[Vendetta]

Why should the audience care if they get their way? They don't. They're merely going along with the protagonists. Why do I give a crap about Alderaan when Stormtroopers look so shiny they could be on a recruitment poster?

And that is perfectly emblematic of why I'm saying the worldbuilding is not good. Good worldbuilding would have meant the audience did know the answers to all those things. It would have made the Trade Federation feel like a real organisation with its own goals not just doing what Sidious says because reasons.

It doesn't make the audience care about the world because the world isn't treated as real, they're just going along with the protagonists.

And that's fine in a pulp action serial which is what the original Star Wars movies were aiming to be. It's fine in a lot of movies where action and adventure and individual emotions are at the forefront.

It's not fine for a political thriller/character tragedy which is what the prequel movies were aiming to be.

You made the claim that the worldbuilding was good, but you don't seem to want to support that and are only giving more examples why it isn't good.

[ray245]

That is a bigger problem than just SW. Exposition=bad, time-wasting, when we could be having big explosions!

Though the ST let me down badly on that front - we still didn't get a decent space battle with big capships wailing on each other. Closest we've gotten to that is Endor, Coruscant and Scarif.

That's something to do with JJ Abrams. None of his Trek films have any big space battles as well.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Indeed. I'm not saying I want an entire film of Star Destroyers blasting away at Mon Cal cruisers or similar (actually in all fairness I would love that, as a piece of spectacle). I want a good, large-scale space battle that makes sense in the story but doesn't purely focus on fighters. Hence my approval for Scarif and Coruscant (say what you want about ROTS but god damn that was a glorious opening battle sequence), Endor less so, though I appreciate that's an SFX limitation.

[ray245]

Indeed. I'm not saying I want an entire film of Star Destroyers blasting away at Mon Cal cruisers or similar (actually in all fairness I would love that, as a piece of spectacle). I want a good, large-scale space battle that makes sense in the story but doesn't purely focus on fighters. Hence my approval for Scarif and Coruscant (say what you want about ROTS but god damn that was a glorious opening battle sequence), Endor less so, though I appreciate that's an SFX limitation.

Which was why I had opposed JJ Abrams as a director for Ep 7, because he seems to have an outright aversion to depicting any space battles in his movies.

Big space battles are a rarity in movies, with most of the epic space battles actually taking place in television.

This is another issue.

I recall someone -- I think it was Valdemar -- saying that ROS had done what nothing else could have done -- it finally got the Star Wars Monkey off his back.

That's something that a lot of hollywood suits don't get, I think.

Even though it's been nearly twenty years (lol 2003-2020) since neo BSG premiered; it doesn't really feel that long, since nBSG managed to at least get to the end of whatever story they were trying to tell (even if they failed the landing), and the effects and acting are still pretty decent....

...So what the fuck is the point of a reboot of BSG again? Other than to set money on fire?

Westworld worked as a reboot, like BSG, the original was from the 70s (1973) and it had been long enough (44 years) for the franchise to be dormant, and for special effects to catch up to what writers could come up with.

Another thing for why nBSG worked was that it was one of the first long term structured episodic shows; with a bold new style.

By contrast, I tried watching discovery and the pilot was enough to make me contemplate suicide as they kept throwing in treknobabble left and right. It's like Discovery's writers threw every TNG/DS9/VOY script into a neural net generator and then used output to write dialogue.

I don't want to watch/listen to Treknobabble again like it's 1993 again and I'm rocking a 486DX and Doom.

Because nBSG has effectively ended the story with no ability to create a vast story-universe like Star Trek or Star Wars.

[Vendetta]

That is a bigger problem than just SW. Exposition=bad, time-wasting, when we could be having big explosions!

It shouldn't even need that much.

What do the Trade Federation want in the tax dispute and why do they think blockading Naboo will get them that? They could have a couple more lines of bluster when they butt in in the senate scene to express that before they get shouted down.

Why should the audience care about them getting what they want, that could be visually communicated by having their representatives on the fleet in opulent quarters and throw in a line about how the taxes are inconvenient for them personally, showing them up as hypocrites.

You could fix this in the time it took for Jar Jar to step in poo.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Indeed - you could have fitted it in with a few lines between Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon in that first scene while waiting in the meeting room.

[Darth Yan]

Why should the audience care if they get their way? They don't. They're merely going along with the protagonists. Why do I give a crap about Alderaan when Stormtroopers look so shiny they could be on a recruitment poster?

And that is perfectly emblematic of why I'm saying the worldbuilding is not good. Good worldbuilding would have meant the audience did know the answers to all those things. It would have made the Trade Federation feel like a real organisation with its own goals not just doing what Sidious says because reasons.

It doesn't make the audience care about the world because the world isn't treated as real, they're just going along with the protagonists.

And that's fine in a pulp action serial which is what the original Star Wars movies were aiming to be. It's fine in a lot of movies where action and adventure and individual emotions are at the forefront.

It's not fine for a political thriller/character tragedy which is what the prequel movies were aiming to be.

You made the claim that the worldbuilding was good, but you don't seem to want to support that and are only giving more examples why it isn't good.

The OT had good world building. The Prequels was more execution. Even now people are realizing what Lucas was trying to do

[MKSheppard]

Because nBSG has effectively ended the story with no ability to create a vast story-universe like Star Trek or Star Wars.

There's always Blood & Chrome, the spinoff we never got to see in it's full glory (instead we got fucking Caprica which killed the franchise).

[chimericoncogene]

Vendetta, from what I can tell, your arguments generally apply to TPM, not the rest of the Prequels. The politics are reasonably straightforward throughout the rest of the Prequels. You've got a benevolent Republic, and you've got nefarious Separatists. I really don't see what more you could want. Large multiethnic nations practically always have separatist sentiment somewhere - they just need to be whipped up funded and used. As I said, cultural background maybe.

And I think you, as an inhabitant of a stable multicultural society, forget how badly the majority of mankind treats people "not of the tribe", let alone "not of the species". Tolerant values are not universal yet. You want my nation to be ruled by a fricckin' human in a nearly majority-human galaxy (Count Dooku aside, of course)?

TPM comes across as confusing because that was part of the idea - and yes, it was not as fun an idea as it sounded in hindsight. People got annoyed at the Senate sequences because they seemed irrelevant to the whole movie - because Lucas didn't want a long-winded political thriller and didn't focus on what Palps was doing under and above the table, so it came across as disjointed. I have found TPM a lot better if you watch it after Ep II and III - but your point stands.

The worldbuilding in the OT was limited by the low population density of the Outer Rim (and the lack of CGI people and animals), which was why Lucas added them all in the Special Edition.

But I liked Jar Jar Binks, so my opinion is probably irrelevant.

[Darth Yan]

Except OT felt more alive and better in every way. ANH and ESB blow the other movies out of the water no contest



As an aside I’ve seen fan reimaginings that were far superior. One guy has the Son of Mortis as the main antagonist and honestly it makes sense.

[The Romulan Republic]

That is a bigger problem than just SW. Exposition=bad, time-wasting, when we could be having big explosions!

Though the ST let me down badly on that front - we still didn't get a decent space battle with big capships wailing on each other. Closest we've gotten to that is Endor, Coruscant and Scarif.

This is a personal gripe of mine. I understand why they probably focus on starfighter combat (tradition plus being able to focus on a single daring protagonist). But I'd really like to see more capital ship combat. The few brief moments of capital ship vs capital ship fighting are some of my favorite battle scenes in the films, especially that brief exchange between the Invisible Hand and a Venator at Coruscant.

Although, the only film to actually show an extended battle focussed on capital ships vs capital ships was... TLJ. Regrettably, it was mostly just one capital ship whaling on some others while they couldn't fight back, followed by an admittedly awesome ramming sequence.

[Vendetta]

The OT had good world building. The Prequels was more execution. Even now people are realizing what Lucas was trying to do

I'd say it had good enough worldbuilding for the type of story it was telling. Which was light and mostly did double duty expressing something about a character.

[Darth Yan]

Empire Strikes Back did a lot of worldbuilding regarding the Jedi and it was all great. ANH also made the world feel alive. It’s that good

[Gandalf]

What was the worldbuilding in ESB?

[chimericoncogene]

Cloud city, Bespin. Clearly industrial, but a little underpopulated and insufficiently fleshed-out.
Dagobah and Hoth didn't have much to them.

[ray245]

All the planets in the OT are literally planets ( aside for Alderaan) that no one else really cares about.

[Vendetta]

Cloud city, Bespin. Clearly industrial, but a little underpopulated and insufficiently fleshed-out.
Dagobah and Hoth didn't have much to them.

Okay, but what does the movie tell you about them that makes them feel like real places operating in the rules of a fictional world, rather than just a cool place for plot to happen?

[chimericoncogene]

Okay, but what does the movie tell you about them that makes them feel like real places operating in the rules of a fictional world, rather than just a cool place for plot to happen?

Like I said, worldbuilding is pretty thin in the OT - especially Ep V. Hoth sells the "Rebel Base" schtick really well, though, with defensive gun emplacements, theater shield, and crowded hangar space. It's certainly far better than that idiotic jungle base they have in TROS (I mean, VTOL from grass strips is a nifty capability, but I think you might want to clear away the foliage for easier maintenance of equipment in the field, or throw a bigger camo net over your Corvette, or find some way to keep the rain off your spacecraft).

Mos Eisley and Mos Espa, OTOH, now those places felt alive, as did Geonosis (droid factories and habitable catacombs, and the entertainment centers to match). Kamino was a bit sterile, but "hospital birth ward planet" was kinda the point - and the fact that Jango Fett was being used as a template for a Clone Army was kinda important. And you got to see their Prime Minister make his sales pitch "Magnificent, aren't they? Buy more!".

[ray245]

I think the dialogue as a means to do world-building is something often ignored by writers. You do not need long exposition to explain what the universe is like, but a couple of lines can go a long way in making it feel like the characters are interacting with a wider world.

Take the Bothans for example. We didn't even see any of them in the movies, but we know just how important they are to the rebel cause.

[Vendetta]

Mos Eisley and Mos Espa, OTOH, now those places felt alive, as did Geonosis (droid factories and habitable catacombs, and the entertainment centers to match). Kamino was a bit sterile, but "hospital birth ward planet" was kinda the point - and the fact that Jango Fett was being used as a template for a Clone Army was kinda important. And you got to see their Prime Minister make his sales pitch "Magnificent, aren't they? Buy more!".

I still don't think you get what worldbuilding is.

When you're asked for examples of worldbuilding you just describe a setting, that's not worldbuilding. Worldbuilding is where you put effort into designing things to function as if they were in a real setting first and then introduce a story to them later.

The droid factories on Geonosis are the absolute opposite of worldbuilding, because they're fucking stupid for anything other than an action scene on perilous conveyor belts with chompers. (I even already linked to the scene where Galaxy Quest parodied this exact thing three years before AotC played it straight!).

Likewise the clone factory on Kamino. If it was a real organisation, how the hell do they keep the lights on given that they're so secret they've been erased from any galactic records for so long nobody knows they exist.

They exist and have the properties they do so they can be a mystery for the plot, not because they've been designed to fit as a working component of a living universe.

Star Wars doesn't do worldbuilding really. Things exist for their immediate role in the plot or scene and nothing in the movies even attempts to give them life beyond that. In the OT it didn't matter because pulpy action doesn't need it. In the PT it did matter because political machinations do, otherwise they have nothing to attach weight to them.

[Darth Yan]

By worldbuilding I also mean fleshing out the force and Jedi philosophy

[chimericoncogene]

Vendetta... the thing is, Star Wars movies are movies. There is only so much that can be conveyed on-screen. In a novel, you can talk about little things in the background, little tidbits of history... on screen, a lot of that gets lost too easily.

Does Blade Runner have better worldbuilding (it's based on Earth, so it has a head start)? What do we know other than the fact that the world is dominated by the Japanese and very overpopulated and poor? What government is in charge? Does Star Trek have worldbuilding, beyond the fact that the Federation is benevolent and socialistic and every planet has one hat (and it's a TV show mind you with a lot more room for this)? You need a baseline to grade Star Wars, and the Prequels more than make the cut. Does LOTR have better worldbuilding, beyond the silly mountain city and weird town in the middle of nowhere (I like spaceships, not dragons)?

Setting is part and parcel of worldbuilding. Sets are pretty much how we get attracted to the worlds being built, how the imagination is fired up, how your mind starts racing about what is happening offscreen. A set that makes the viewer think "what else is happening here" or "I can picture the rest of this planet" is good worldbuilding. Because that's how viewers build worlds in their heads. Pictures and feelings.

Does Naboo make you wonder what is happening offscreen? Not really. Pretty empty place.
Oota Gunga is far more intruiging, and again seems to go on forever.
Does looking at Coruscant make you wonder what is happening offscreen? Hell yes for me. I really really really like Coruscant. Infinite city, infinite cityscape, infinite problems.
Does looking at Kamino make you wonder? Not as much. Maybe a sense of "these clone factories go on forever...", but that's maybe it.
Tatooine? Hell yes. Big diverse messy place full of cowboys and Indians, so much so that they ripped off Tatooine for the Mandalorian. Heck, they could have set it on Tatooine and nobody would have batted an eye.
Geonosis? Not as much, although the Arena is a nice touch. Again, you get the sense that the droid factories go on forever. Scale. Grandeur.
Utapau? That chase scene through the sinkhole and the big battle didn't really sell it - we never get a good sense of the planet.
Mustafar? Well, very cool facility, but that was literally it.
Bespin? All we have to go on are three corridors, a dining room, a carbonite room, a weather vane (all pretty empty) and talk about small-scale gas mining. Can't really picture the rest of the city, and it's a bit bland.
Hoth? Ice caves go on forever.

The presence of markets and polyspecific melange on Tatooine convey lawlessness, just as the refusal of Republic Credits is suggestive of a lack of control. I think the droid factory scene was done well. Corny, but fun. At least the machines made a little bit of sense.

The Prequels were not quite all about political machinations. They were happening, and were part of the story, but I hardly think they were the main focus of the audience's attention. My attention was mainly focused on what Obi-Wan and Anakin were doing.

Your questions are like asking where the shipyard to build the 120-km Death Star is, or where the enormous cargo ships from Black Sun that are supplying the Endor Pipeline are, or where the self-replicating factories building Death Star II's superstructure are. I would like to see them as much as you do, and I think the movies could be even better if they snuck in more details like those, but there are limitations to the medium.

[chimericoncogene]

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