Harley Quinn (2019 cartoon) review/discussion.

[The Romulan Republic]

Wondering if anyone else here is watching this show.

My feelings about it are still... decidedly mixed. The show relies a lot on shock value, gore, and offensive/"politically incorrect" humour. Some of the characterizations are very far off from how they're normally depicted (most notable Bane and Jim Gordon). Most seriously, the show has been criticized, with considerable justification, for anti-Semitism: https://change.org/p/dc-comics-dc-comic ... and-hamner

I have watched enough of the show to vouch that every complaint against the show in that petition is accurate, and that its by no means a complete list.

Though to be completely fair, Harley herself is portrayed as ethnically Jewish in a not-noticeably-stereotypical way, and I think some of the writers are Jewish. In which case, I leave it to others to decide whether Jew jokes/stereotypes are still offensive if they're made by a Jewish writer (its one of those questions, like "Is it okay for black people to use the N-word", that I really don't feel its my place to weigh in on, on account of not being a member of the group in question).

On the plus side, the voice acting is overall quite good, and I've genuinely grown to love Kaley Cuoco as Harley, to the point that I'd rather like to see her play the character in live action. Alan Tudyk does a good Joker voice, if not quite up to Hamill's level (and also Clayface and a bunch of other characters- the man is versatile). Bane is complete OOC, but also oddly endearing and occasionally bad ass. And Ivy is just the best character, and basically the most likable eco-terrorist ever. And underneath the absurdity and shock factor, there's a pretty strong story about breaking free from an abusive relationship (particularly in the first season- the second thus far feels like its more just action and has less of a solid arc).

I do think the best interpretation of the show is that its the DC Universe from Harley's POV. A lot of the weirder aspects of the show make a lot more sense that way.

Also, props for this scene: https://youtube.com/watch?v=iM1mukkBlzc

And the conclusion of this one: https://youtube.com/watch?v=c3SySD4650U

Oh, and as of last episode, it looks like they're Spoiler

finally shipping Harley and Ivy.

So there's that.

[chimericoncogene]

This show is totally totally awesome. 100/100. Watch it. That is all...
...and apparently I have more to say.
There is no need to expect stringent adherence to established canon and/or characterization (internal logic runs very strong though, and the cartoon is nothing if not consistent). This is a zany little cartoon, meant to be consumed with delight, joy, copious suspension of disbelief and much disgust at the frankly excessive gore which adds little to the story but is kept in anyway as a screw-you to the sensible viewer. Roaring buckets of fun, consistent quality across episodes and seasons, and heartwarming moments to rival Futurama.

[The Romulan Republic]

This show is totally totally awesome. 100/100. Watch it. That is all...
...and apparently I have more to say.
There is no need to expect stringent adherence to established canon and/or characterization (internal logic runs very strong though, and the cartoon is nothing if not consistent). This is a zany little cartoon, meant to be consumed with delight, joy, copious suspension of disbelief and much disgust at the frankly excessive gore which adds little to the story but is kept in anyway as a screw-you to the sensible viewer. Roaring buckets of fun, consistent quality across episodes and seasons, and heartwarming moments to rival Futurama.

There are so many different versions of the DC Universe, all with their own continuity to some extent (although certain ideas tend to reoccur) that almost anything is fair game within a given interpretation.

Like I said, I like to think of this show as "the DC Universe from Harley Quinn's POV".

Incidentally, here's the trailer for next episode: https://youtube.com/watch?v=JTNs1SRJTbk

[Solauren]

I agree, his is probably from Harley's POV, as filtered by Harley's insanity.

Put into that context, and add in jewish writers, you can't complain about anything going on in the show. It's literally a insane individuals point of view. This could literally end up being 'and it was all a delusion', and it would still work, and not be a cheap 'way out', because it's from an insane persons mind!

[The Romulan Republic]

Nah, "it was all just a dream" is pretty much always a cop-out, and I think it would be here too.

The approach I take is that the broad events are largely "true" within the universe of the show, but skewed by Harley's perceptions, ie everything is just a bit crazier, more over-the-top, and exaggerated than it actually is.

It also explains why Ivy always seems so supportive and level-headed, even though she's a fanatical eco-terrorist- we're seeing Ivy as Harley sees her, as the best friend she can always count on.

Edit: Actually, I think the perfect ending to this show might be to reveal that its a story Harley is telling to someone, leaving it ambiguous what's true, a delusion, or her embelishing for effect.

[FaxModem1]

I enjoy the show, but there are large parts where I'm thinking, "Why am I rooting for these people?"

For instance, the first episode has Ivy wondering what happened to the kid she hired to look after her plants. Cue plant vomiting up dead body. Ivy wonders what happened to the kid's parents. Cue plant vomiting up parent's dead bodies.

It's great for a parody work, or a sketch like Robot Chicken or Family Guy. But these are our main characters, and they're fully the bad guys, as in they kill random people all the time, they're just more relateable bad guys due to (with the exception of Dr. Psycho), being much more 21st century in outlook about the world.

That said, I still enjoy it.

[The Romulan Republic]

I enjoy the show, but there are large parts where I'm thinking, "Why am I rooting for these people?"

For instance, the first episode has Ivy wondering what happened to the kid she hired to look after her plants. Cue plant vomiting up dead body. Ivy wonders what happened to the kid's parents. Cue plant vomiting up parent's dead bodies.

It's great for a parody work, or a sketch like Robot Chicken or Family Guy. But these are our main characters, and they're fully the bad guys, as in they kill random people all the time, they're just more relateable bad guys due to (with the exception of Dr. Psycho), being much more 21st century in outlook about the world.

That said, I still enjoy it.

Yeah, that's very true.

Harley does argue in a recent episode that they can't kill "normal" people. And she was freaked out when Queen of Fables slaughtered a family just to cover her tracks. Her attitude seems to be that its okay to kill other criminals or law enforcement/superheroes, but not "civilians". I'm not sure any of the crew has ever intentionally killed or maimed a random bystander since the first episode* (the opening scene with Harley and the Joker brutally slaughtering a bunch of rich capitalist assholes on a yacht, but they're rich capitalist assholes so I guess that's supposed to make it okay?)

Then again, even if she didn't directly cause it, she was happy when Gotham got destroyed at the end of season one, and that had to have killed thousands of people, so...

Ivy is characterized as a misanthrope who's attitude toward human beings outside her small circle of friends ranges from "homicidal" to "barely tolerating". But because we mostly see her interacting with Harley, she usually comes off as level-headed and likable because that's how she is toward Harley.


*Edit: Excluding Ivy's periodic murders of environmental polluters. Come to think of it, Ivy's probably the most unapologetically murderous of the main cast.

[chimericoncogene]

I enjoy the show, but there are large parts where I'm thinking, "Why am I rooting for these people?"

For instance, the first episode has Ivy wondering what happened to the kid she hired to look after her plants. Cue plant vomiting up dead body. Ivy wonders what happened to the kid's parents. Cue plant vomiting up parent's dead bodies.

It's great for a parody work, or a sketch like Robot Chicken or Family Guy. But these are our main characters, and they're fully the bad guys, as in they kill random people all the time, they're just more relateable bad guys due to (with the exception of Dr. Psycho), being much more 21st century in outlook about the world.

That said, I still enjoy it.

It's semi-parody, IMO. You can tell from the deconstruction and reconstruction of various major characters e.g. drunk Gordon, millenial Batgirl, ineffectual Batman, and attempts to explore what supervillany actually entails in terms of human lives and rank incompetence of law enforcement. Setting -cogent and logical yet absurd consequences result - e.g. Vegas style lairs unnoticed by law enforcement in the middle of the city.

Also, while Harley et al are terrible, the other supervillians are supposedly worse.
I don't think we're supposed to be rooting for their victory so much as rooting for them by default (supporting the characters becomes part of suspension of disbelief - you know it's silly, but cheer anyway), and just laughing at the mayhem, since they are obviously godawful criminals.

[The Romulan Republic]

I enjoy the show, but there are large parts where I'm thinking, "Why am I rooting for these people?"

For instance, the first episode has Ivy wondering what happened to the kid she hired to look after her plants. Cue plant vomiting up dead body. Ivy wonders what happened to the kid's parents. Cue plant vomiting up parent's dead bodies.

It's great for a parody work, or a sketch like Robot Chicken or Family Guy. But these are our main characters, and they're fully the bad guys, as in they kill random people all the time, they're just more relateable bad guys due to (with the exception of Dr. Psycho), being much more 21st century in outlook about the world.

That said, I still enjoy it.

It's semi-parody, IMO. You can tell from the deconstruction and reconstruction of various major characters e.g. drunk Gordon, millenial Batgirl, ineffectual Batman, and attempts to explore what supervillany actually entails in terms of human lives and rank incompetence of law enforcement. Setting -cogent and logical yet absurd consequences result - e.g. Vegas style lairs unnoticed by law enforcement in the middle of the city.

Also, while Harley et al are terrible, the other supervillians are supposedly worse.

Except Mr. Freeze, the most woke ice-themed villain in all of New Gotham.

I don't think we're supposed to be rooting for their victory so much as rooting for them by default (supporting the characters becomes part of suspension of disbelief - you know it's silly, but cheer anyway), and just laughing at the mayhem, since they are obviously godawful criminals.

Yeah. Plus Harley is somewhat sympathetic due to her backstory of chronic abuse from both her parents and boyfriend, and her arc being about breaking free of said abusive relationships and basically learning to have healthy-ish relationships (for a supervillain, anyway).

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, last episode pretty much Spoiler

killed the whole Harley as a sympathetic anti-villain thing. She allied with Darkseid and slaughtered a bunch of innocent people because she had relationship issues with Ivy. I hate to say it, but even for a semi-parody show, that feels like jumping the shark. Harley earlier drew a line at killing a family, and two episodes told Ivy they couldn't kill a normal person. Now she's committing atrocities to work out her relationship issues.

Guys, lampshading the fact that you basically borrowed Game of Thrones' Mad Queen Daenerys plot line doesn't change the fact that you basically borrowed the Mad Queen Daenerys plot line.

Harley going really dark could have worked, but I feel that it needed more build-up, and not so quick a resolution. They just failed to sell it, for me. Unless they retcon that Psycho was mind-controlling her or something, and have their be real consequences down the road (like Darkseid coming for Harley), then... yeah, I think they've kind of jumped the shark.

I don't know, they haven't been confirmed for a third season yet, so maybe they're just trying to wrap up all their plot lines as quickly as possible. But season two just doesn't feel as carefully plotted, or have as strong an arc, as season one.

[FaxModem1]

Well, last episode pretty much Spoiler

killed the whole Harley as a sympathetic anti-villain thing. She allied with Darkseid and slaughtered a bunch of innocent people because she had relationship issues with Ivy. I hate to say it, but even for a semi-parody show, that feels like jumping the shark. Harley earlier drew a line at killing a family, and two episodes told Ivy they couldn't kill a normal person. Now she's committing atrocities to work out her relationship issues.

Guys, lampshading the fact that you basically borrowed Game of Thrones' Mad Queen Daenerys plot line doesn't change the fact that you basically borrowed the Mad Queen Daenerys plot line.

Harley going really dark could have worked, but I feel that it needed more build-up, and not so quick a resolution. They just failed to sell it, for me. Unless they retcon that Psycho was mind-controlling her or something, and have their be real consequences down the road (like Darkseid coming for Harley), then... yeah, I think they've kind of jumped the shark.

I don't know, they haven't been confirmed for a third season yet, so maybe they're just trying to wrap up all their plot lines as quickly as possible. But season two just doesn't feel as carefully plotted, or have as strong an arc, as season one.

Well, the show's opening was of Harley Quinn brutally slaughtering people on a yacht, they were rich yuppies, and the audience is only supposed to be caring because Joker was stealing her thunder and that it wasn't an equal partnership. This is pretty much the logical outgrowth of the direction they were taking the character. If protagonists are so murder happy, and are only really worried about their personal connections, then everyone else in Gotham are just props for jokes and plotlines. It's Secret Six without having the lighter shade of gray so that we can root for the main characters.

I think that's what really defines the show. We should care about the Harley-Poison Ivy-Kite Man love triangle, while at the same time, the main characters engage in wanton villainy, kidnapping and threatening to slaughter a sushi chef because he might not get their orders right. It's akin to Venture Brothers, but without the rule about staying out of civilian business, so that when the villains kill, it doesn't seem as wantonly cruel.

Seeing Batgirl, someone trying to do good, is a big breath of fresh air compared to such people on-screen. Probably why they included her subplot in this season in the first place.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, but its still worth noting that Spoiler

Harley hasn't really engaged in that sort of extreme violence against ordinary bystanders since the first episode, and even then it was mostly Joker doing the killing. So her actions in this episode feel like a regression, to me, on previous character growth.

Poor Batgirl. She tried so hard to get everybody to stop acting like dipshits and all anyone took away from it was "I need an army".

[FaxModem1]

Yeah, but its still worth noting that Spoiler

Harley hasn't really engaged in that sort of extreme violence against ordinary bystanders since the first episode, and even then it was mostly Joker doing the killing. So her actions in this episode feel like a regression, to me, on previous character growth.

Poor Batgirl. She tried so hard to get everybody to stop acting like dipshits and all anyone took away from it was "I need an army".

Well, to sum up, if you make a show about villains, you're going to see villainous acts. You either have to reform the character, make it to where they aren't that bad in comparison in a Game of Thrones way, or hope that the audience is okay with wanton slaughter. There's a reason that the Gotham City Sirens movie, even though it was called Birds of Prey, was really a Gotham City Sirens movie, and still faced the issue of having our viewpoint character being a psychotic villain not really caring about anyone else but herself. And they still chose to give her a conscience, as opposed to being okay with all the crap that happens in Gotham City.

[chimericoncogene]

Well, to sum up, if you make a show about villains, you're going to see villainous acts. You either have to reform the character, make it to where they aren't that bad in comparison in a Game of Thrones way, or hope that the audience is okay with wanton slaughter. There's a reason that the Gotham City Sirens movie, even though it was called Birds of Prey, was really a Gotham City Sirens movie, and still faced the issue of having our viewpoint character being a psychotic villain not really caring about anyone else but herself. And they still chose to give her a conscience, as opposed to being okay with all the crap that happens in Gotham City.

I suspect the target audience is expected to be able to suspend belief at the horrible mindless slaughter and laugh manically along with the protagonists as they cause massive suffering and bloodshed. At heart, it's an absurdist comedy like Spaceballs or Police Squad.

When the bumbling detective injures and maims everyone nearby, and brags about shooting his thousandth drug dealer (he rammed the last one with his car; it's a good thing he turned out to be a drug dealer), you're supposed to laugh - shake your head, but laugh. Muh-hahahahahaha!

[The Romulan Republic]

It was never portrayed positively to begin with, but still, its impressive how badly Spoiler

Gordon's love of tanks and eagerness to shoot anarchists

has aged in just two weeks.

[The Romulan Republic]

Welp, season two has wrapped up.

I felt it was a bit weaker overall than season one, which had a stronger arc. This one felt more rushed, the characterizations more inconsistent (then again, Harley's character being inconsistent was kind of the point). There were, however, some memorable episodes and scenes. The end had a nice nod to Batman The Animated Series, as well as the Tim Burton films.

A good (albeit spoilery) interview from the creator on what they plan to do in the event the show is renewed:

https://syfy.com/syfywire/harley-quinn- ... r-season-3

I do like that they're committed to not doing the usual Spoiler

endless cycle of breaking up and getting back together that plagues so many TV romances (Kaley Cuoco's previous role as Penny on The Big Bang Theory was painfully bad in that regard at times)

. Its lazy, unimaginative writing.

[FaxModem1]

Serial comedy is hard to do. The show is obviously great at one-off and running gags, while also having character development, but they'll also have things like Nora Fries seeming to not care about her husband's death a few weeks after so that she can shack up on Ivy's Bachelorette party, or how Gotham is still No Man's Land, and how they're making a big deal about lack of supplies and power for a few episodes, but life continues on in Gotham like nothing really changed so that they can have Catwoman, Harley, and Ivy do brunch with Cobb salads. Then there's Harley becoming responsible for the slaughter of a lot of people by unleashing a Parademon army on Earth, but we're not really supposed to remember that while we are supposed to remember that Parademons are in Gotham for the rest of the season.

This leads to wacky comedic scenes, like a Wedding Planner still studiously doing her job selling a venue to Kite-man and Poison Ivy while being grabbed by a parademon, but you have that moment in the back of your head where you think, "Uhh, are we ever going to deal with the fact that Harley is responsible for this?" I get that it's a comedic show, but we are essentially watching a show about apathetic killers.

[Civil War Man]

Setting all other things aside, I think they did do a decent job of handling Kite-Man in the last episode, at least regarding Spoiler

his decision to break off the wedding with Ivy. It manages to get Harley and Ivy together while avoiding the "jilted man left at the altar" trope. Plus, he ends the relationship on his own terms, and it manages to make him sympathetic while doing it, since it acknowledges that he's the one who's had to do all of the emotional labor in the relationship.

[The Romulan Republic]

Serial comedy is hard to do. The show is obviously great at one-off and running gags, while also having character development, but they'll also have things like Nora Fries seeming to not care about her husband's death a few weeks after so that she can shack up on Ivy's Bachelorette party, or how Gotham is still No Man's Land, and how they're making a big deal about lack of supplies and power for a few episodes, but life continues on in Gotham like nothing really changed so that they can have Catwoman, Harley, and Ivy do brunch with Cobb salads. Then there's Harley becoming responsible for the slaughter of a lot of people by unleashing a Parademon army on Earth, but we're not really supposed to remember that while we are supposed to remember that Parademons are in Gotham for the rest of the season.

This leads to wacky comedic scenes, like a Wedding Planner still studiously doing her job selling a venue to Kite-man and Poison Ivy while being grabbed by a parademon, but you have that moment in the back of your head where you think, "Uhh, are we ever going to deal with the fact that Harley is responsible for this?" I get that it's a comedic show, but we are essentially watching a show about apathetic killers.

I did find it difficult to just gloss over the fact that Harley brought an army of parademons to Earth and is responsible for probably thousands of deaths, mostly of civilians and bystanders.

The main characters have always been criminals, and most or all of them killers, but that was kind of on another level.

Harley I think works (most of the time) because she's funny and sympathetic enough that you can kind of forget she's a monster, and she has a compelling overall arc (more in season one) of someone struggling to overcome abuse and find their own identity. She's a monster, but a sympathetic and interesting monster.

Ivy is weird. She's probably the most murderous of the main cast, not a particularly nice person most of the time, and yet I somehow find her incredibly likable. I put this down in part to the fact that we mostly see her from Harley's perspective, and Harley sees her as the always-supportive best friend/love interest.

Again, the show is basically DC from Harley's POV, and a lot of it works much better if viewed in that light.