New Clone Wars Season 7 Trailer.

[chimericoncogene]

Let's get serious for a moment.

They're all clones -- their training is tightly controlled by the Kaminoans.

Do you think the Jedi can check every single aspect of the cloning and training process to ensure that there are no hidden psychological traps like Order 66?

There's no need to have elaborate mental override bio chips.

You don't even need to hide it!

How many Jedi have gone rogue over the order's history?

*cough Count Dooku*

"So what are these Order 60 series, 61, 62, 63, and so on in the conditioning regime?"

"Well, you know how the clones are being conditioned to follow Jedi in accordance with Master Sifo Dyas' orders?"

"What if their Jedi goes bad like Grand Master STRAK? He'd then have an army of clones doing his bidding."

"Order 66 is a logical counter against rogue Jedi hostile to the Jedi Order and Republic trying to build up their own fiefdoms with fanatically loyal clone troops."

*Jedi Master Mace Windu has signed off on this*

Order 66 was likely deeply hidden in the 60 series; the others are "easy cake" logical stuff such as:

"Order 61, disobey your jedi if he orders you to execute an unlawful order."

And like others pointed out, Order 66 is likely programmed to only fire at Darth Sidious' command voice.

People keep telling me that it's implausible for clones to shoot popular commanding officers and that they would disobey en masse without bio-chips, because bonds forged in fire are stronger than ten years of psychological conditioning and the gravitas of top-priority emergency action orders from the Commander-in-Chief.

I mean, I get where they're coming from, but I find it reasonably believable, although I'd expect at least some attempt to confirm the orders were authentic before execution e.g. "Are you sure, My Lord? Has there been a change in the strategic situation?".

Also, I still think putting chips in everyone takes away the moral weight on the clones for their compliance with orders.

The good part of the chip thing is that it's depicted as a non-intrusive disinhibition chip - the clones act completely normally other than following through with Order 66 without hesitating too much, other than a malfunctioning unit in a clone in an earlier arc.

[Galvatron]

I wonder how the clone commanders spread Order 66 to their subordinates. Did they re-broadcast Palpatine's message to their men or did they simply issue a verbal command and hope the rank-and-file would follow the order without question?

I think TCW covered this, but I can't recall the specifics.

[MKSheppard]

Yeah, that's canon now thanks to that comic, but it's just so stupid, and inconsistent with the portrayl of Order 66 elsewhere...

Why does every single Order 66 execution feature:

Palpatine in his darth sidious visage

and

the clonetroopers saying "It will be done my lord" or variants therof?

That all points to deep mental conditioning with multiple heuristic triggers -- because how else would they recognize Sidious and refer to him properly "My lord" instead of "Yes sir" or "Yes, chancellor?"

[Galvatron]

Still, it seems Order 66 should not have applied to Ahsoka. Remember this scene from RoboCop?

Speaking of RoboCop, I wonder if Order 66 was hidden just like RoboCop's Directive 4 was.



So the clones and the Jedi may have know all about Orders 1 through 65 like the old EU said, but even the existence of Order 66 was concealed from everyone until it was given and the clones were triggered.

[Gandalf]

Why does every single Order 66 execution feature:

Palpatine in his darth sidious visage

and

the clonetroopers saying "It will be done my lord" or variants therof?

That all points to deep mental conditioning with multiple heuristic triggers -- because how else would they recognize Sidious and refer to him properly "My lord" instead of "Yes sir" or "Yes, chancellor?"

Maybe in his time in office, he rewrote the rules around forms of address for the Chancellor? It would fit with Mace Windu's "you're under arrest, my lord."

[Knife]

The clones served multiple purposes. Yes, they were a Jedi trap. But in multiple ways, just like the actual war.

The Clone Army was disposable. No families, loved ones, kids back on Coruscant. No powerful Senators in their families. If thousands got wiped out, more were made. No emotional connections for people to get enraged over. If any emotion at all, a nationalistic fervor for the GAR being killed, but not for individual troopers. The only ones that mourned the actual individual clone deaths were clones and maybe some Jedi.

They were engineered to be short lived. The growth acceleration got them ready for battle in 10 years, but also made it so 20 year service life for any who survived. A 30 year old clone is approximately 60 in 'normal' years. Maybe not a death sentence, but a good 60 year old grunt is pretty damned rare. Rambo is pure bullshit. You can't operate at a decent level that old. Military advisor? Sure. Actual ground unit? Hell no.

According to the ROTS novel, Palpatine's plan on Order 66 was multifaceted. War itself kicked up enough shit in the Force to hamper the Jedi. I don't think the 'Shroud of the Dark Side" was any sort of Sith level 99 skill on level up, rather Palpatine kicking enough dirt into the air so the Jedi could not see. Political disturbances, evil corporate plots, civil unrest. All more or less natural things he could stoke even without Sith powers, just money and corruption his Sith powers brought him. Then start a war where the death of thousands muddied the water more. Add to it clones conditioned for war and violence with a bio chip circuit breaker to go apeshit on Jedi. Of course the Jedi never saw it coming.

[Galvatron]

The war itself also significantly thinned out the Jedi ranks through sheer attrition.

The whole thing was a systematic campaign to weaken them both numerically and politically, thus setting them up for a final killing stroke that would shatter their order beyond repair.

[Knife]

Indeed. Though I tried to go at it from the clones perspective. As described in the novel, it was a win/win situation for Palpatine or a lose/lose for the Jedi.

[Galvatron]

I also don't think it can be understated how important it was for the clone army's creation to be traceable back to Sifo-Dyas.

Hell, it's possible that Palpatine made a very public display of "emancipating" them early in the war to appease those voices among the Republic populace who were disgusted by the ramifications of using a slave army. Of course, he knew that even most "freed" clones would still choose to serve the GAR due to their conditioning, but the mere gesture would make him look like a great guy while everyone glowered suspiciously at the Jedi.

[Gandalf]

I also don't think it can be understated how important it was for the clone army's creation to be traceable back to Sifo-Dyas.

Hell, it's possible that Palpatine made a very public display of "emancipating" them early in the war to appease the Republic populace who were disgusted by the ramifications of using a slave army. Of course, he knew that even most "freed" clones would still choose to serve the GAR due to their conditioning, but the mere gesture would make him look like a great guy while everyone glowered suspiciously at the Jedi.

Given how cool everyone is with droid slaves, maybe designer people slaves weren't an issue?

[Galvatron]

I don't know if everyone is "cool" with droid slaves, but I'd imagine that people are far less squeamish about them than they are with enslaving people.

[Gandalf]

I don't know if everyone is "cool" with droid slaves, but I'd imagine that people are far less squeamish about them than they are with enslaving people.

Perhaps there's a differences in enough people's minds between slaves like those on Tattooine, and millions if identical guys that roll off a production line.

Blade Runner with an angry clone would be totally awesome though.

[chimericoncogene]

The clones served multiple purposes. Yes, they were a Jedi trap. But in multiple ways, just like the actual war.

The Clone Army was disposable. No families, loved ones, kids back on Coruscant. No powerful Senators in their families. If thousands got wiped out, more were made. No emotional connections for people to get enraged over. If any emotion at all, a nationalistic fervor for the GAR being killed, but not for individual troopers. The only ones that mourned the actual individual clone deaths were clones and maybe some Jedi.

The Sith grand guideline, as Palps executed it, also called for a sudden onset rapidly escalating war to keep the Jedi off-balance.

If the Clone and Droid armies had not been available, actually getting large numbers of people to support galactic-scale violence bad enough to join the army would have taken too long. War economies would have taken time to mobilize, and would have mobilized out in the open, with attendant debate and political resistance, giving the Jedi time to reassess the situation, react, and adapt.

If you look at AOTC, the Galaxy goes from "major political crisis with systems defense forces" to "major high-intensity galactic war" in the space of a few weeks.

The war lasted three years or so, just long enough for "normal" war production to kick into high gear - the TCW cartoon makes it very clear, with Republic forces increasing markedly in size, scope and power throughout the war - just in time for the Empire to inherit the military-industrial complex.

[Galvatron]

Expanding upon that, I had hoped TCW would show us that the Republic was actively recruiting non-clones from the civilian populace to serve in the military while the clones acted as more of a stopgap measure to prevent the CIS from steamrolling the galaxy.

I wanted to see at least a few fresh-faced normies who drank the propaganda Kool-Aid and enlisted because they thought it was their patriotic duty to do their part, thus becoming the frothing first generation of non-clone Imperial stormtroopers.

[chimericoncogene]

Expanding upon that, I had hoped TCW would show us that the Republic was actively recruiting non-clones from the civilian populace to serve in the military while the clones acted as more of a stopgap measure to prevent the CIS from steamrolling the galaxy.

I wanted to see at least a few fresh-faced normies who drank the propaganda Kool-Aid and enlisted because they thought it was their patriotic duty to do their part, thus becoming the frothing first generation of non-clone Imperial stormtroopers.

Well, Jar Jar and Padme did lead an army of Gungans as Republic Auxiliaries to fight the Separatist Quarren on Dac, alongside Shirtless Aquaman Kit Fisto and Anakin's 501st.

There was a big underwater battle and everything. The original Clone Wars cartoon did that battle better, though. Better scale, more blaster bolts, and less dialog.

[MKSheppard]

The Sith grand guideline, as Palps executed it, also called for a sudden onset rapidly escalating war to keep the Jedi off-balance.

More than that, the sudden rapid onset of the Civil War through the attack by CIS forces forced the Jedi right then and there, to accept the Clone Armies as a fait accompli, with no deep investigation into their origins or programming beyond Obi Wan's initial investigation.

[Knife]

The clones served multiple purposes. Yes, they were a Jedi trap. But in multiple ways, just like the actual war.

The Clone Army was disposable. No families, loved ones, kids back on Coruscant. No powerful Senators in their families. If thousands got wiped out, more were made. No emotional connections for people to get enraged over. If any emotion at all, a nationalistic fervor for the GAR being killed, but not for individual troopers. The only ones that mourned the actual individual clone deaths were clones and maybe some Jedi.

The Sith grand guideline, as Palps executed it, also called for a sudden onset rapidly escalating war to keep the Jedi off-balance.

If the Clone and Droid armies had not been available, actually getting large numbers of people to support galactic-scale violence bad enough to join the army would have taken too long. War economies would have taken time to mobilize, and would have mobilized out in the open, with attendant debate and political resistance, giving the Jedi time to reassess the situation, react, and adapt.

If you look at AOTC, the Galaxy goes from "major political crisis with systems defense forces" to "major high-intensity galactic war" in the space of a few weeks.

The war lasted three years or so, just long enough for "normal" war production to kick into high gear - the TCW cartoon makes it very clear, with Republic forces increasing markedly in size, scope and power throughout the war - just in time for the Empire to inherit the military-industrial complex.

I would agree with that. The GAR being disposable while a large, more 'traditional' army was formed just in time to inherit the victory from the GAR as they are retired.

[ray245]

I would agree with that. The GAR being disposable while a large, more 'traditional' army was formed just in time to inherit the victory from the GAR as they are retired.

And there was no real contact between Jedi Commanders and your regular, non-clone troops. So the Jedi bonded with soldiers that can be easily turned into a mindless killing machine, but failed to bond with your regular citizens who joined the army.

Which makes the ending the Jedi Order a lot easier, because you are not likely to find people in the Imperial ranks who might be more sympathetic to the Jedi Order.

[chimericoncogene]

And there was no real contact between Jedi Commanders and your regular, non-clone troops. So the Jedi bonded with soldiers that can be easily turned into a mindless killing machine, but failed to bond with your regular citizens who joined the army.

Which makes the ending the Jedi Order a lot easier, because you are not likely to find people in the Imperial ranks who might be more sympathetic to the Jedi Order.

I think the bond Jedi had with their troops is a little overstated. There would certainly be a bond, but the Jedi are depicted as field-grade officers - Padawans get Commander's commissions and Knights get General's commissions.

The formations you're talking about are battalions to divisional formations for most of the Jedi, and for those Jedi with actual aptitude for war (they talk about taking over hemispheres), maybe Corps to Army Group-sized formations.

Anakin is typically depicted as leading the 501st legion (a divisional-corps sized formation - they spin off three brigades to Ahsoka in the last arc, it looks like - one for each kilometer-long Star Destroyer) - that's 16,000 men at least (I'm going on Soviet numbers since the logistics are all droids). I'd guess Padawan commanders get company-to-brigade sized formations.

(on a side note: the 501st has to take the Jedi Temple, which contains several thousand -Jedi agricorps workers and temple guards and lightsaber-wielding padawans and whatnot - so for 3:1 combat power ratios, that's again at least a six-brigade formation. Troops have better comms, but Padawans have lightsabers.)

A charismatic general might be able to win over his/her troops pretty well, but fundamentally, they're higher-ups. You won't know every man in a division of 16,000 personally (let alone a Corps of 50,000), and they're not all going to like you. If more than a third of the rank-and-file are willing to aim their guns at you under contingency orders... well, the other half (even if it's the Clone commanders and captains you do know personally) is going to have to follow suit or commit open treason. Armies do not react like individuals. So to obey Order 66 is Follow Erwin Rommel into Mutiny stuff, and not exactly shoot your best friend stuff (although for dramatic effect it is).

(note: in Star Wars, Cody is a Marshall Commander commanding... a Corps or an Army Group or something, so "Commander" means a lot of things... also the cartoon, George Lucas et al. know jack crap about actual military structure, so it's inconsistent as frick and I ignore everything the cartoon says about the GAR*. I'd say Padawan Commander translates to something like Lt. Col or Col)

To paraphrase Captain Rex. "I've got three brigades ready. Load up onto the (AT-TE) walkers! 1st Battalion - walker 1!" There are three walkers on-screen. The original Clone Wars miniseries was far better at its grasp of what an actual army feels like, childish though the depiction may still have been.

[Knife]

And there was no real contact between Jedi Commanders and your regular, non-clone troops. So the Jedi bonded with soldiers that can be easily turned into a mindless killing machine, but failed to bond with your regular citizens who joined the army.

Which makes the ending the Jedi Order a lot easier, because you are not likely to find people in the Imperial ranks who might be more sympathetic to the Jedi Order.

I think the bond Jedi had with their troops is a little overstated. There would certainly be a bond, but the Jedi are depicted as field-grade officers - Padawans get Commander's commissions and Knights get General's commissions.

The formations you're talking about are battalions to divisional formations for most of the Jedi, and for those Jedi with actual aptitude for war (they talk about taking over hemispheres), maybe Corps to Army Group-sized formations.

Anakin is typically depicted as leading the 501st legion (a divisional-corps sized formation - they spin off three brigades to Ahsoka in the last arc, it looks like - one for each kilometer-long Star Destroyer) - that's 16,000 men at least (I'm going on Soviet numbers since the logistics are all droids). I'd guess Padawan commanders get company-to-brigade sized formations.

(on a side note: the 501st has to take the Jedi Temple, which contains several thousand -Jedi agricorps workers and temple guards and lightsaber-wielding padawans and whatnot - so for 3:1 combat power ratios, that's again at least a six-brigade formation. Troops have better comms, but Padawans have lightsabers.)

A charismatic general might be able to win over his/her troops pretty well, but fundamentally, they're higher-ups. You won't know every man in a division of 16,000 personally (let alone a Corps of 50,000), and they're not all going to like you. If more than a third of the rank-and-file are willing to aim their guns at you under contingency orders... well, the other half (even if it's the Clone commanders and captains you do know personally) is going to have to follow suit or commit open treason. Armies do not react like individuals. So to obey Order 66 is Follow Erwin Rommel into Mutiny stuff, and not exactly shoot your best friend stuff (although for dramatic effect it is).

(note: in Star Wars, Cody is a Marshall Commander commanding... a Corps or an Army Group or something, so "Commander" means a lot of things... also the cartoon, George Lucas et al. know jack crap about actual military structure, so it's inconsistent as frick and I ignore everything the cartoon says about the GAR*. I'd say Padawan Commander translates to something like Lt. Col or Col)

To paraphrase Captain Rex. "I've got three brigades ready. Load up onto the (AT-TE) walkers! 1st Battalion - walker 1!" There are three walkers on-screen. The original Clone Wars miniseries was far better at its grasp of what an actual army feels like, childish though the depiction may still have been.

Except a direct translation of Galactic basic to Earth military terms is not needed. There is absolutely NOTHING that dictates a galactic army needs to adhere to modern US or even Russian TO&E. Hell, we don't. While everyone is convinced a squadron is 12, plenty of times in the last hundred years of flight were squadrons of 18 or 24. A US Marine infantry squad (at least in the 1990's) was 13 Marines in 3 teams. British squads are 8 (as I understand it) in 2 teams. And don't get me started on the 'Stardestroyers are fast torpedo boat destroyers' nonsense.

Now I get it, making guestimations and estimates based on our current understandings of how our military works. There was obvious parallels being made. Themes and symbology to short cut story telling narrative. But using stuff like "Cody was a Marshall in the GAR, and 1980 USSR Marshall commanded X troops, therefore: Y" is nonsense. Also, you seem to have a lot of old legend logged in as fact still.

[chimericoncogene]

Except a direct translation of Galactic basic to Earth military terms is not needed. There is absolutely NOTHING that dictates a galactic army needs to adhere to modern US or even Russian TO&E. Hell, we don't. While everyone is convinced a squadron is 12, plenty of times in the last hundred years of flight were squadrons of 18 or 24. A US Marine infantry squad (at least in the 1990's) was 13 Marines in 3 teams. British squads are 8 (as I understand it) in 2 teams. And don't get me started on the 'Stardestroyers are fast torpedo boat destroyers' nonsense.

Now I get it, making guestimations and estimates based on our current understandings of how our military works. There was obvious parallels being made. Themes and symbology to short cut story telling narrative. But using stuff like "Cody was a Marshall in the GAR, and 1980 USSR Marshall commanded X troops, therefore: Y" is nonsense. Also, you seem to have a lot of old legend logged in as fact still.

Note: I subscribe to death of author, and cherry pick the bits I like.

Of course. I agree completely. While legends in non-canon, the mix of data from canon and legends (EU IS LIFE) (most of my figures are still canon - Kenobi and Cody have at least 7th Sky Corps, with 36,864 men exactly all tooth, no tail, not even pilots) still allows us to make order-of-magnitude estimates of the forces involved, in the traditional manner of this website. As you should have seen, I have tried to give no estimates within an order of magnitude. It doesn't really matter to me whether a squad has 4 men or 17 men - they are within the same order of magnitude.

I'm not exactly doing "versus" here, and exacting figures are unnecessary. I think my point is adequately delivered that Jedi commanders cannot expect to know everyone in their units personally, and that their units are largish.

Also, if those words carried no meaning, they wouldn't use the words in translation from basic to English. You see, I suspect that writers know their limits, and chose intentionally vague terminology to give people room to play (and lessen the load on their storytelling faculties, best applied to the story at hand rather than the silly details). "Commander" is higher than "Captain" on the totem pole, and Rex alternatively commands something between a company and a division canonically. "Marshall Commander" (still canon) sounds cooler and higher up than just "Commander", so... more men than a Commander. Likewise for "High General" Obi-Wan Kenobi.

"Move up your platoons." "I'll give Ahsoka a division". The idiotic terminology is barely adequate for casual (but excellent) storytelling, but we work with what we get to get an idea of what is happening.

If you go with that horrible canon guide to warfare, then a legion is ~10,000 men and that they are square divisions (rule of 4). ICS says a divisional air-ground task force is about 16,000 men, and fits on an Acclamator. A Venator should take between a battalion and a division, and lo and behold, Wookieepedia quotes a brigade-sized force.

[chimericoncogene]

I'm sorry if I sounded a bit antagonistic, Knife. I over-illustrated my general point that Jedi were in command of large formations, and accidentally broadened the argument into a touchy area I generally prefer to avoid.