Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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"The Trump Regime Is Beginning to Topple"

https://theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2 ... ns/612739/
Over the course of his presidency, Donald Trump has indulged his authoritarian instincts—and now he’s meeting the common fate of autocrats whose people turn against them. What the United States is witnessing is less like the chaos of 1968, which further divided a nation, and more like the nonviolent movements that earned broad societal support in places such as Serbia, Ukraine, and Tunisia, and swept away the dictatorial likes of Milošević, Yanukovych, and Ben Ali.

And although Trump’s time in office will end with an election and not an ouster, it is only possible to grasp the magnitude of what we’re seeing and to map what comes next by looking to these antecedents from abroad.

As in the case of many such revolutions, two battles are being waged in America. One is a long struggle against a brutal and repressive ideology. The other is a narrower fight over the fate of a particular leader. The president rose to power by inflaming racial tensions. He now finds his own fate enmeshed in the struggle against police brutality and racism.

The most important theorist of nonviolent revolutions is the late political scientist Gene Sharp. A conscientious objector during the Korean War who spent nine months in prison, Sharp became a close student of Mahatma Gandhi’s struggles. His work set out to extract the lessons of the Indian revolt against the British. He wanted to understand the weaknesses of authoritarian regimes—and how nonviolent movements could exploit them. Sharp distilled what he learned into a 93-page handbook, From Dictatorship to Democracy, a how-to guide for toppling autocracy.

Sharp’s foundational insight is embedded in an aphorism: “Obedience is at the heart of political power.” A dictator doesn’t maintain power on his own; he relies on individuals and institutions to carry out his orders. A successful democratic revolution prods these enablers to stop obeying. It makes them ashamed of their complicity and fearful of the social and economic costs of continued collaboration.

Sharp posited that revolutionaries should focus first on the regime’s softest underbelly: the media, the business elites, and the police. The allegiance of individuals in the outer circle of power is thin and rooted in fear. By standing strong in the face of armed suppression, protesters can supply examples of courage that inspire functionaries to stop carrying out orders, or as Sharp put it, to “withhold cooperation.” Each instance of resistance provides the model for further resistance. As the isolation of the dictators grows—as the inner circles of power join the outer circle in withholding cooperation—the regime crumbles.

This is essentially what transpired in Ukraine in 2014. When the country’s president backed away from plans to join the European Union, a crowd amassed in Kyiv’s central square, the Maidan. The throngs initially had no avowed intention or realistic hope of overthrowing the kleptocratic president, Viktor Yanukovych. But instead of letting the demonstrators shout themselves hoarse in the thick of subfreezing winter, Yanukovych set about violently confronting them. This tactic backfired horribly. A movement with limited aims became a full-blown revolution. Oligarchs quietly slunk away from a leader they had long subsidized. Lackeys who had faithfully served the regime resigned, for fear of attracting the public’s ire. In the bitter end, Yanukovych found himself isolated, alone with his own family and his Russian advisers, destined for exile.

It is astonishing how events in the U.S., despite all the obvious imperfections of the analogy, have traced the early phases of this history. This is observable in the images of the crowds on successive nights, as Trump’s violent suppression of the protests in Lafayette Square has only caused their ranks to swell. And it’s possible to see how elites, in the course of just a few days, have begun to withhold cooperation, starting with the outer circles of power and quickly turning inward.

Twitter’s decision to label Trump’s posts as misleading was a hinge moment. For years, the company had provided the president with a platform for propaganda and a mechanism for cowing his enemies, a fact that long irked both critics outside Twitter and employees within. Only when Trump used Twitter to threaten violence against the protests did the company finally limit the ability of users to see or share a tweet.

Once Twitter applied its rules to Trump—and received accolades for its decision—it inadvertently set a precedent. The company had stood strong against the bully, and showed that there was little price to pay for the choice. A large swath of S&P 500 companies soon calculated that it was better to stand in solidarity with the protests, rather than wait for their employees to angrily pressure them to act.

A cycle of noncooperation was set in motion. Local governments were the next layer of the elite to buck Trump’s commands. After the president insisted that governors “dominate” the streets on his behalf, they roundly refused to escalate their response. Indeed, New York and Virginia rebuffed a federal request to send National Guard troops to Washington, D.C.* Even the suburb of Arlington, Virginia, pulled its police that had been loaned to control the crowd in Lafayette Square.

As each group of elites refused Trump, it became harder for the next to comply in good conscience. In Sharp’s taxonomy, the autocrat’s grasp on power depends entirely on the allegiance of the armed forces. When the armed forces withhold cooperation, the dictator is finished. Of course, the U.S. is far more democratic than the regimes Sharp studied and doesn’t fit his taxonomy neatly. But on Wednesday, the president’s very own secretary of defense explicitly rejected Trump’s threat to deploy active-duty military officers to American streets. It’s among the most striking instances of an official bucking a president in recent decades.

The examples of Serbia, Ukraine, and Tunisia show how even the subservient unexpectedly break from a leader once that leader is doomed to illegitimacy. And to an extent, the cycle of abandonment has already begun. Jim Mattis’s excoriation of his old boss prodded Trump’s former chief of staff John Kelly and Senator Lisa Murkowski of Alaska to echo his condemnation of the president.** As each defector wins praise for moral courage, it incentivizes the next batch of defectors.

Even if the protests fizzle—and the parade of denunciations comes to an end—it’s worth pausing to marvel at the moment. Despite the divisions of the country, a majority of its people joined together in shared abhorrence of the president, at least for an instant. Sectors of society that studiously avoid politics broke with their reticence. In a dark era, when it seemed beyond the moral capacities of the nation, it mustered the will to disobey.

* An earlier version of this article incorrectly included Maryland among the states that have rebuffed a request to send National Guard troops to Washington, D.C.

** This article previously misstated the first name of former White House chief of staff John Kelly.

We want to hear what you think about this article. Submit a letter to the editor or write to letters@theatlantic.com.


FRANKLIN FOER is a staff writer at The Atlantic. He is the author of World Without Mind and How Soccer Explains the World: An Unlikely Theory of Globalization.
We can only hope. And continue to resist.

But almost as striking as the process being described is the fact that centrist, mainstream news outlets are now talking about the Presidency of the United States in the same terms that they would dictators abroad.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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The Romulan Republic wrote: 2020-06-06 08:56pm "The Trump Regime Is Beginning to Topple"
If I had a nickel...
I had a Bill Maher quote here. But fuck him for his white privelegy "joke".

All the rest? Too long.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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Ex-military personnel linked to the far Right arrested in Vegas for plotting to use the riots as cover for a terrorist attack, in the hopes of helping to instigate a civil war. The article notes other incidents of far Right terrorists shooting at and driving into crowds of protesters, targeting police, or advocating attacks against both groups online, including a fake Twitter group which claimed to be ANTIFA but was actually far Right:

https://salon.com/2020/06/04/group-link ... osecutors/
Three white men with ties to a right-wing extremist movement plotted terrorist attacks against protesters in Las Vegas, federal prosecutors said in a criminal complaint.

Prosecutors said three men with military experience and ties to the far-right "boogaloo" movement, which aims at inciting a second American Civil War, plotted attacks against individuals protesting the death of George Floyd and coronavirus restrictions.

Stephen Parshall, 35, Andrew Lynam Jr., 23, and William Loomis, 40, were arrested Saturday en route to a protest over Floyd's death. Police allegedly found the group filling gas canisters and making Molotov cocktails in a parking lot in downtown Las Vegas.

Federal prosecutors charged each of the men with conspiracy to damage and destroy by fire and explosive and possession of unregistered firearms. They were separately charged with terrorism, conspiracy and explosives possession in state court, according to the Associated Press.

"People have a right to peacefully protest. These men are agitators and instigators. Their point was to hijack the protests into violence," Nicholas Trutanich, the U.S. attorney in Nevada, told the AP.

Lynam, an Army reservist, Parshall, who was enlisted in the Navy, and Loomis, who was enlisted in the Air Force, were part of the "boogaloo" movement, which prosecutors described as a "term used by extremists to signify coming Civil War and/or fall of civilization," the complaint said.

"This type of planning and intent on causing mayhem is terroristic and will not be tolerated," Las Vegas District Attorney Steve Wolfson told the AP.

Authorities were first alerted to the plot after a confidential informant met with two of the men in early April at an anti-lockdown rally, according to the federal complaint. Lynam, who was armed, allegedly told the informant that the group "was not for joking around and that it was for people who wanted to violently overthrow the United States government."

Parshall and Loomis later "discussed causing an incident to incite chaos and possibly a riot, in response to the death of a suspect," referring to Floyd, at a May 27 meeting, according to the complaint.

Loomis said he wanted to firebomb a power substation, according to the complaint, but Lynam suggested exploiting the protests to attack a fee station on federal land near the Hoover Dam or a U.S. Forest Service station. The informant told authorities that Parshall and Loomis' "idea behind the explosion was to hopefully create civil unrest and rioting throughout Las Vegas."

The men wanted to use the Floyd protests "to hopefully stir enough confusion and excitement, that others see the explosions and police presence and begin to riot in the streets out of anger," prosecutors said.

"Boogaloo" is a "term meaning the second Civil War that the right-wing paramilitaries and other extremists are hoping for and lusting after right now," journalist David Neiwert, who tracks alt-right movements, told Salon's Chauncey DeVega. "These right-wing extremists want to replace America's constitutional democracy with authoritarian right-wing rule. Online, these right-wing extremists spend a great deal of time talking about the 'boogaloo' and killing federal law enforcement agents. They also fantasize about societal breakdown and killing their neighbors for supplies. These people are very serious about their violence."

The arrests come as federal authorities warned that far-right extremists were trying to exploit the protests in order to stoke violence.

The Department of Homeland Security on Tuesday issued an "intelligence note" warning that "some violent opportunists have become more emboldened following a series of attacks against law enforcement during the last 24 hours nationwide."

"This could lead to an increase in potentially lethal engagements with law enforcement officials as violent opportunists increasingly infiltrate ongoing protest activity," the document said, citing "several incidents" which involved targeting police and "shooting into crowds of protestors."

At least one "violent opportunist" drove into a group of protesters in Asheville, N.C., and fired "several shots into the crowd before speeding away," the document said.

Though President Donald Trump and Attorney General William Barr have sought to blame Antifa, the anti-fascist movement, for violence surrounding some of the protests, the FBI's Washington field office has found no evidence "indicating Antifa involvement/presence" at protests in the area, according to a document obtained by The Nation.

But the same document warned that members of a far-right social media group "called for far-right provocateurs to attack federal agents" and "use automatic weapons against protesters."

Another DHS memo said that "a white supremacist extremist Telegram channel incited followers to engage in violence and start the 'boogaloo' — a term used by some violent extremists to refer to the start of a second Civil War — by shooting in a crowd."

Twitter earlier this week shut down a fake Antifa account which called for violence after linking it to a white nationalist group.

Trump has said nothing about the mounting reports of far-right extremists exploiting the unrest. However, he has vowed to label Antifa a terror group, even though it is a decentralized movement made up of many autonomous groups and individuals. Experts say such a move would be unconstitutional.

"It's ANTIFA and the Radical Left," Trump insisted on the same day the extremists in Las Vegas were arrested with firearms and explosives. "Don't lay the blame on others!"
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/12 ... mp4?tag=10

Colleagues of those Buffalo police cheering them as they are charged with assault.

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watc ... er-a-major

Buffalo mayor calls 75-year-old shoved by police officer a 'major instigator' during protests

That just says it all doesn't it.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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FireNexus wrote: 2020-06-06 09:17pm
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2020-06-06 08:56pm "The Trump Regime Is Beginning to Topple"
If I had a nickel...
This also has nothing to do with Trump. The names of victims of police violence go back through the ages of the United States. In living memory Rodney King, Amadiou Diallou, Trayvon Martin, and Michael Brown all come to mind.

Trump, obviously, makes this worse. But this isn't a Trump problem. It's an America problem.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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Of course it predates Trump. Trump is a product of the same history and ongoing system of racism that created these killings. But as you said, Trump makes it worse. Far, far worse. And any lasting change is going to have to involve overcoming him and his allies.

And it definitely looks like one result of these protests may be to give the final push to topple Trump.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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Walk me through how you connect the dots on that last sentence.
'After 9/11, it was "You're with us or your with the terrorists." Now its "You're with Straha or you support racism."' ' - The Romulan Republic

'You're a bully putting on an air of civility while saying that everything western and/or capitalistic must be bad, and a lot of other posters (loomer, Stas Bush, Gandalf) are also going along with it for their own personal reasons (Stas in particular is looking through rose colored glasses)' - Darth Yan
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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Straha wrote: 2020-06-07 01:12am Walk me through how you connect the dots on that last sentence.
Read the Atlantic article I posted a few posts up, and look at Trump's poll numbers.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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So despite a ban on tear gas use, Seattle PD used teargas. Says it all about the odds of real reform coming from just making the cops promise to stop choking people, really.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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So, it's official. There's no evidence that us damn dirty anarchists are responsible for the uprising. Which, you know, is what anarchists have been saying all along. For bonus points, there's basically zero evidence that sinister out-of-staters and out-of-towners are behind the looting and property damage since most of those picked up on those charges are locals (but c.f. my earlier concern that the Antifa supersoldiers have been equipped with some kind of rocket-powered rollerskate and/or jetpack to enable them to flee police and thereby avoid arrest and possibly also some kind of cloaking device, which is why no evidence of them turning 'peaceful protests' into riots has surfaced.) This means that we can't apply the 'outside troublemaker' litany to them unless we're categorically excluding local troublemakers and opportunists from membership in their own community.

Despite this, the FBI is continuing to persecute people with my political beliefs, including protest organizers, street medics, journalists, and people whose primary form of political agitation is bringing homeless people soup, on the basis that they're a threat to the nation. This is what the Outside Agitator canard gets you: A focus away from the cause of the anger towards a fictitious intruder that in turn justifies a crackdown on protest organizers and leftists. The people actually instigating violence - undercover cops, by and large - usually strut away scott free.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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There are certainly outside agitators responsible for escalating the violence- but as I noted above, they appear to be largely from the Right/"boogaloo" crowd, not from the Left/Antifa. Or, as you said, possibly undercover cops (in many places, the distinction between "cop" and "far Right extremist" is pretty blurry anyway).
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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The Romulan Republic wrote: 2020-06-07 02:43am There are certainly outside agitators responsible for escalating the violence- but as I noted above, they appear to be largely from the Right/"boogaloo" crowd, not from the Left/Antifa. Or, as you said, possibly undercover cops (in many places, the distinction between "cop" and "far Right extremist" is pretty blurry anyway).
See, the funny thing is there's actually not much of that either from people on the ground. The presence of white supremacist shitfuckers is real, but they're largely on the fringes because they're cowards rather than being at the front of the march. So let's be extremely clear what an outside agitator actually is, yeah?

An outside agitator is a person in the main body of the protest who has no relationship to the community or the organizers and who engages in deliberate actions to instigate violence and/or property damage.

White supremacist thugs lurking around on the edges intimidating protestors are not outside agitators. They're dickheads, but not outside agitators. Likewise, the ones who've barreled into the crowd to start fights are not outside agitators - they are counter-protestors. Neo-nazis arrested on the fringe of the protest for planning to start shit are not outside agitators because they haven't satisfied the requirement of actually agitating. Looters taking advantage of the chaos to steal shit away from the protest are not outside agitators. I've seen a grand total of one or two of these incidents while combing over plenty of footage from the front that could even begin to meet the label.

The reason it's important to be clear on this is, again, that the outside agitator line serves the purpose of proposing that the community could not possibly be violent towards its oppressors, thereby delegitimizing violent acts of revolt against the state, and further, that it justifies cracking down rather than answering the concerns of the uprising. It is an anti-Black, anti-Semitic, anti-Left canard with very little basis in fact of any kind, and even its qualified repetition 'there are, but they're on the Right' is still legitimizing the narrative being pushed that actually, the community isn't angry enough to start breaking shit and smashing heads until justice is delivered.

On a different note, the regime garrison at the Portland Justice Center have opened fire on the crowd with flashbangs, teargas, beanbags, and smoke grenades.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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Since I didn't address it in the last post, read this before you assert that undercovers are outside agitators. While it's fun to yell - and accurate in a sense when you remember that many cops actually live outside the communities they police - it's an unhelpful conflation. Undercovers are used to give manufactured evidence to an otherwise unsupportable proposition - we should no more credit their existence as proof of outside agitation than we should credit a forged confession as proof of guilt.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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Yes, we should make the distinction between Right-wing extremists on the fringes, and counter-protesters, and agitators posing as protesters. Everything that is happening here deserves to be, and needs to be, seen as it is, not distorted or concealed.

However, part of that is the presence of agitators who are not part of the protests. I posted an article earlier referring to incidents of Right wing extremists using the protests as cover for attacks, or even attacking both sides to instigate violence, as well as the far Right posing as ANTIFA online. Of course they are. They may not have been terribly successful, so we can call those ones "attempted agitators" if you prefer, but they're certainly making the attempt.

This is not something simply being made up to discredit the protesters, nor to suggest that the protesters aren't really that angry, or that their concerns are less important. Its real. Yes, we need to be careful in the language we use to describe these actions and their perpetrators, not to inadvertently conflate them with genuine Black Lives Matter protesters. But I do not see how denying and turning a blind eye to the actions of the far Right is supportive of the protests and the Left while calling them out is, in your words, "an anti-Black, anti-Semitic, anti-Left canard".

Of course, my opinion is worth little to nothing in this discussion, both on account of my being a white man and the fact that, at the end of the day, I'm just some guy on the internet. So I'll listen to what the protesters are saying and doing. Some are engaging in violence out of anger, or desperation, or self-defense, or because they believe, rightly or wrongly, that it will be an effective tactic to bring about change. That is true. Most of them are non-violent, or their "violence" is restricted to property, not people. Some of them have called out those they believe are agitators in their midst. Are they less legitimate, as a result?

You believe that violence is legitimate and/or necessary for political change, and want to counter any attempt to portray violence as illegitimate. That does not change the fact that there are people attempting to agitate violence in pursuit of an agenda that is very hostile to Black Lives Matter and the actual protests. And I find it, to say the least, ironic of you to brand those who acknowledge that reality as "anti-Black, anti-Semitic, and anti-Left" (ie, not legitimate protesters) in the interests of defending the legitimacy of those you sympathize with.

Edit: I think I grasp the reasoning behind saying that police who are manufacturing evidence of outside agitators should not be counted as outside agitators, even if it seems like a fairly fine distinction given that they are outside actors infiltrating the protests and committing crimes in an effort to incite/justify more violence (by police). That's a separate question, though, from the far Right agitators outside of law enforcement I've referred to previously.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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The Romulan Republic wrote: 2020-06-07 03:59am Yes, we should make the distinction between Right-wing extremists on the fringes, and counter-protesters, and agitators posing as protesters. Everything that is happening here deserves to be, and needs to be, seen as it is, not distorted or concealed.

However, part of that is the presence of agitators who are not part of the protests. I posted an article earlier referring to incidents of Right wing extremists using the protests as cover for attacks, or even attacking both sides to instigate violence, as well as the far Right posing as ANTIFA online. Of course they are. They may not have been terribly successful, so we can call those ones "attempted agitators" if you prefer, but they're certainly making the attempt.
Yes, I saw the article. People posing as antifa online aren't outside agitators, and of the fascists using the protests as cover, there are, again, very few of them and they aren't directing the violence or causing it in any meaningful quantity. The vast majority who turn up hang in the back and on the fringes because they're cowards. No one is denying their existence, or the existence of looters, or even the existence of misguided white anarchists who haven't yet figured out that actual solidarity involves turning up and listening to Black anarchists for direction.

What is in dispute is that they are not outside agitators because the term outside agitator is not a politically neutral descriptive term. It is a deliberately engineered one that exists only to discredit protests, with a specific meaning.
This is not something simply being made up to discredit the protesters, nor to suggest that the protesters aren't really that angry, or that their concerns are less important. Its real. Yes, we need to be careful in the language we use to describe these actions and their perpetrators, not to inadvertently conflate them with genuine Black Lives Matter protesters. But I do not see how denying and turning a blind eye to the actions of the far Right is supportive of the protests and the Left while calling them out is, in your words, "an anti-Black, anti-Semitic, anti-Left canard".
Again, the outside agitator argument is not politically neutral. It is not an objective descriptor - it is a political weapon. It is an anti-Black, anti-Semitic, anti-Left canard. It is for this precise reason that it has been weaponized by the establishment quite explicitly to discredit the riots as legitimate and to promote instead peaceful protest (and peaceful protest, that can be managed, is not a threat to the system). Consider who has actually advanced the argument in the media - mayors, governors, Trump, police chiefs. The exact people being protested are the ones who are saying 'look, the community is angry, but all the violence is coming from outside agitators'.

As you acknowledge, the language we use matters. And that is why the term 'outside agitator' must be used only with extreme caution, because it is not just any language. It is expressly the language of the establishment against the popular uprising - expressly language that says 'you aren't really that angry', that says 'these people are just being exploited'.
Of course, my opinion is worth little to nothing in this discussion, both on account of my being a white man and the fact that, at the end of the day, I'm just some guy on the internet. So I'll listen to what the protesters are saying and doing. Some are engaging in violence out of anger, or desperation, or self-defense, or because they believe, rightly or wrongly, that it will be an effective tactic to bring about change. That is true. Most of them are non-violent, or their "violence" is restricted to property, not people. Some of them have called out those they believe are agitators in their midst. Are they less legitimate, as a result?
No, they aren't. But you'll notice that those calling out undercovers tend not to ascribe to them the only motivation for violence in the movement. It is that tendency, which underscores the logic of the 'outside agitator' argument, that is in dispute.
You believe that violence is legitimate and/or necessary for political change, and want to counter any attempt to portray violence as illegitimate. That does not change the fact that there are people attempting to agitate violence in pursuit of an agenda that is very hostile to Black Lives Matter and the actual protests. And I find it, to say the least, ironic of you to brand those who acknowledge that reality as "anti-Black, anti-Semitic, and anti-Left" (ie, not legitimate protesters) in the interests of defending the legitimacy of those you sympathize with.
For a protest to be effective it must contain within itself the threat that, unless demands are met, the protestors will take action to pursue the ends they want to achieve. In this respect, all effective protests are a form of political violence because even when purely non-violent, they contain an implicit threat of violence.

But you've also jumped the rails here. I've branded the outside agitator canard as anti-Black, anti-Semitic, and anti-Left - which it is. I haven't branded those who are watchful for shit-stirrers trying to hijack the movement that, which is what you here allege. This is inaccurate and a fundamental misreading of my position. You will also note that I have not said that peaceful protestors are illegitimate.
Edit: I think I grasp the reasoning behind saying that police who are manufacturing evidence of outside agitators should not be counted as outside agitators, even if it seems like a fairly fine distinction given that they are outside actors infiltrating the protests and committing crimes in an effort to incite/justify more violence (by police). That's a separate question, though, from the far Right agitators outside of law enforcement I've referred to previously.
So, again, the issue is that the outside agitator canard isn't just 'oh well there are some dickheads trying to take advantage'. It has a history and genealogy far removed from that. It is not an objective descriptive term, it is a politicized term weaponized by the establishment against popular uprisings. Using the language to refer to far-right shit stirrers is still using the language, and still reinforcing the messaging that the community isn't angry enough to engage in directed political violence.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I'll retract the accusation that you were labeling those who call out infiltrators of being "anti-Black, anti-Semitic, and anti-Left". My apologies for the misunderstanding.

I also take you at your word that you do not view non-violent protesters as less legitimate, though I'm honestly not sure how you square this with your stated view that a protest must be violent (at least have the implied threat of violence) in order to be effective.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I am certainly not arguing that agitators (or "undercovers", if you prefer) are "the only motivation for violence in the movement", or to dismiss the anger of actual protesters, or even to dictate how they should protest. Of course there are limits to what I'd condone or accept- if someone blew up a bus full of civilians in "protest", for example, I'd object to that. But that's not happening, nor is any extreme violence against people on the part of the protesters, with possibly a very few exceptions. And I'm certainly not trying to promote an anti-Semitic view.

I have my biases, and I do have a preference for peaceful protest where feasible, but I am aware that there are many genuine protesters who do feel justified in engaging in violence (mostly against property), and I am not going to judge their anger, or how they choose to protest. My focus here, as I hope I have made clear, is to draw attention to the deceptions and crimes of the far Right, and their attempts to use and undermine these legitimate protests for their own ends.

I don't dispute your analysis of the term's history- I have no doubt you are more informed on the subject than I. However (as I'm sure you are aware), terms can have more than one meaning in the mind of the public, their meaning can change over time, and it is likely that many or most of those using the term are not using it with an anti-Black, anti-Semitic, anti-Left, or anti-protest agenda in mind, nor is that how they will understand the use of the term by others. However, if it is the term "outside agitator" or "agitator" which you object to, then what term would you consider more acceptable? You used "undercovers" earlier- would that be an acceptable term, in your view, to describe people who are not part of or supporters of Black Lives Matter, but are seeking to infiltrate the protests in order to discredit them, or use them to further their own ends?


Whether protest can be effective without being violent, or having the implicit threat of violence, is another subject (and probably depends somewhat on how one defines "violence"- for example does it include property destruction, disruption of society or the economy, etc.).

Edit: to clarify, when I refer to "violence", I am usually referring to physical violence or threats of physical violence against people, not to destruction of property or to acts which cause social or economic disruption- though I am aware that such acts have the potential to indirectly lead to violence and physical harm.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by loomer »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2020-06-07 05:45am I'll retract the accusation that you were labeling those who call out infiltrators of being "anti-Black, anti-Semitic, and anti-Left". My apologies for the misunderstanding.

I also take you at your word that you do not view non-violent protesters as less legitimate, though I'm honestly not sure how you square this with your stated view that a protest must be violent (at least have the implied threat of violence) in order to be effective.
It's very simple. All protests contain an implicit threat of violence because they consist of a body of people downing tools, marching, and demanding to be heard on an issue. If they are not heard, they will return. If they are still not heard, they will fight for what they believe. This is the implicit threat in every protest: 'We feel strongly about this issue - strongly enough to march en masse. We demand change, and if you deny us - if you push us - we will fight for it.' Now, most protests never actually escalate into violence, because the threat is often only a threat and those involved don't actually feel strongly enough about it to fight - but that makes it no less an act of political violence to muster en masse and march to demand a change. In this respect, you might like to consider the protest a warning shot across the bow - a way of using symbolic violence to avert actual violence.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I am certainly not arguing that agitators (or "undercovers", if you prefer) are "the only motivation for violence in the movement", or to dismiss the anger of actual protesters, or even to dictate how they should protest. Of course there are limits to what I'd condone or accept- if someone blew up a bus full of civilians in "protest", for example, I'd object to that. But that's not happening, nor is any extreme violence against people on the part of the protesters, with possibly a very few exceptions. And I'm certainly not trying to promote an anti-Semitic view.
Then stop using the term 'outside agitator'. The genealogy of the term is explicitly anti-Semitic, anti-Black, and anti-Left.
I have my biases, and I do have a preference for peaceful protest where feasible, but I am aware that there are many genuine protesters who do feel justified in engaging in violence (mostly against property), and I am not going to judge their anger, or how they choose to protest. My focus here, as I hope I have made clear, is to draw attention to the deceptions and crimes of the far Right, and their attempts to use and undermine these legitimate protests for their own ends.
And you can do that without using the term 'outside agitator'.
I don't dispute your analysis of the term's history- I have no doubt you are more informed on the subject than I. However (as I'm sure you are aware), terms can have more than one meaning in the mind of the public, their meaning can change over time, and it is likely that many or most of those using the term are not using it with an anti-Black, anti-Semitic, anti-Left, or anti-protest agenda in mind, nor is that how they will understand the use of the term by others.
Terminology changes, yes, but again - it is being explicitly invoked in this exact fashion against the current uprising by establishment figures. This is not a point of academic difference, but one with genuine importance in the way the uprising is framed, conceptualized, and responded to. 'Outside agitators' justifies violence and delegitimizes the protests, diverting focus away from the rage that birthed the uprising. It is the responsibility of those of us who are in favour of the protest to contest the use of the language and the rhetorical trickery it invokes. This is why we have to be extremely careful about reproducing the language even when we're pointing to the presence of neo-nazis and other shitbags looking to exploit the uprising - the term has already entered into use in the current context, and it hasn't been in the way you want to use it.
However, if it is the term "outside agitator" or "agitator" which you object to, then what term would you consider more acceptable? You used "undercovers" earlier- would that be an acceptable term, in your view, to describe people who are not part of or supporters of Black Lives Matter, but are seeking to infiltrate the protests in order to discredit them, or use them to further their own ends?
Undercovers is for cops. For other shit-stirrers, try 'shit-stirrers', 'provocateurs', etc - or even 'agitator' or 'instigator' so long as you make it very clear in the context that you aren't referring to the outside agitator concept. But the central point that matters most is this: Do not center the actions of shit-stirrers over the causes of the uprising. Don't focus on them over the documented proof that by far the most frequent source of escalation from symbolic violence to actual violence during the uprising is the police, in uniform and in ranks.
Whether protest can be effective without being violent, or having the implicit threat of violence, is another subject (and probably depends somewhat on how one defines "violence"- for example does it include property destruction, disruption of society or the economy, etc.).
It would indeed be a subject for another time if we're going to go into extensive detail, but the very brief version of my position is that all of these things are forms of violence but that political violence in and of itself is not bad (in which I differ from most other leftists, especially most other pacifist leftists.) Violence, real and symbolic, is part of the language of power (and vice versa) and its use makes clear complaints in a way that cannot be denied. All protests - even peaceful ones - carry with them the threat of disruption and of what we might call 'actual violence' (as opposed to symbolic violence in the form of the protest itself), and it is this capacity that forces the establishment to take note. A protest that lacks this capacity is entirely toothless and can be ignored. Note how the uprising's most violent (against property, primarily, which is the most efficient means of transforming rage into a form that liberal capitalist democracy can comprehend) sites have had the most receptive responses from establishment figures.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by loomer »

No more curfew in NYC. Presumably the massive wave of lawsuits headed his way is a factor.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by PainRack »

https://twitter.com/bdaviskc/status/126 ... 63585?s=19

https://twitter.com/SteveSchmidtSES/sta ... 05312?s=19

Anyone can comment on the veracity of this incident ? I'm not even sure how to search the media for this.

But it looks like unmarked people in riot gear assembled in Washington DC.DOJ Cops? Mercenaries? Contracters? Prison guards? If prison guards, are they allowed to carry weapons in DC given DC strict gun laws?

Does the DOJ have the ability to hire contracters?
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by loomer »

PainRack wrote: 2020-06-07 09:57am https://twitter.com/bdaviskc/status/126 ... 63585?s=19

https://twitter.com/SteveSchmidtSES/sta ... 05312?s=19

Anyone can comment on the veracity of this incident ? I'm not even sure how to search the media for this.

But it looks like unmarked people in riot gear assembled in Washington DC.DOJ Cops? Mercenaries? Contracters? Prison guards? If prison guards, are they allowed to carry weapons in DC given DC strict gun laws?

Does the DOJ have the ability to hire contracters?
Bureau of Prisons paramilitaries. As to the legality of their deployment, I couldn't say, but the reality is that strict legalities count for jack and shit when dealing with government regimes - even if they strictly speaking aren't permitted to be armed (which I doubt, as they're licensed federal officers) that doesn't matter when Homeland Security says fuck it.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by Gaid »

Those are the ones that they're able to conclusively identify(though I'm still not sure how they did it). But there's nothing stopping them from mixing in other agencies. Barr danced around not wanting to identify agents. As if that was the question. No. Put the agency on the vest asshat.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by loomer »

Bristol went off and dumped the statue of slave trader Edward Colston in the river. I love a good symbolic statue toppling but it better be followed with pressure for actual action.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by Elfdart »

What's going on here is a Police Riot, just like the one in Chicago in 1968 and New York in 1992. In the case of NY, it was a seething hatred for the first black mayor for being black, as well as his proposal for an independent review panel for police misconduct. In Chicago it was a reaction to Dirty Fucking Hippies and then against elected officials who dared to call out Mayor Daley's thuggery. The more Daley's hoodlums were denounced, the more vicious they got. THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT! Just like lynchings by Ku Kluxers, or the clubs and castor oil used by Mussolini's Blackshirts, the idea is to show the public that the paramilitaries can do whatever they want. The only difference is that this one is nationwide.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by loomer »

Some dickhead drove his car into the Seattle protest and fired on protestors with a handgun, wounding at least one person. He's been taken into custody but, in a shocking twist, without being beaten, tazed, or murdered. Guess what his skin colour is.
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