New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

[chimericoncogene]

I mean, no wonder it looked like nobody gave a crap about the First Order and Palpatine's little Sith Death Cult. Who's going to give a crap about a few petty Outer Rim warlords with a few thousand ships and a destroyed planet-killer when it looks like Correlia is about to throw down with Cato Nemodia over control of the Hydian (again)!

The only idiots who cared about that little war in Wild Space were those Hosnian Prime New Republic wannabes, and they've gone the way of Alderaan! The blip barely registered on the Coruscanti exchange. The news of escalating tensions within the Kuat-Correlian free trade zone, on the other hand...

Of course, when Palps showed off his new Sith-tek Superguns strapped to his shiny old fleet of refurbished Star Destroyers, people finally took notice. I'm going to stick with that made-up backstory until Resistance gets interesting enough to watch or something.

[ray245]

While I don't think the Sequel Era is quite worth the effort, echoing ray's sentiment regarding its blandness, I believe that it is salvageable in principle. I'd go for the easy cop out and double down on the anarchy angle, talking about how government above Sector level had collapsed even when Hosnia was declaring itself a New Republic. That fleet was basically sector and planetary defense forces, as far as I can tell. Then encyst it in amber and write around that monstrosity until it starts maturing.

So... the OT cast completely failed to restore a sustainable self regulating system of galactic law and order following the collapse of the Empire. Interesting angle, but a bit depressing.

When your solution to salvage the sequel era is to make the OT characters a near-complete failure, it does render the point as to what is worthwhile about the sequel era.

[bilateralrope]

While I don't think the Sequel Era is quite worth the effort, echoing ray's sentiment regarding its blandness, I believe that it is salvageable in principle. I'd go for the easy cop out and double down on the anarchy angle, talking about how government above Sector level had collapsed even when Hosnia was declaring itself a New Republic. That fleet was basically sector and planetary defense forces, as far as I can tell. Then encyst it in amber and write around that monstrosity until it starts maturing.

So... the OT cast completely failed to restore a sustainable self regulating system of galactic law and order following the collapse of the Empire. Interesting angle, but a bit depressing.

When your solution to salvage the sequel era is to make the OT characters a near-complete failure, it does render the point as to what is worthwhile about the sequel era.

It's only a near-complete failure if the galaxy is still largely at war.

If the galaxy consists of many separate governments that are mostly coexisting peacefully, then the OT characters still succeeded. The Republic hasn't been rebuilt, but the oppression of the Empire is gone and has been replaced by something better.

Or you could go with the Republic growing slowly by diplomatically convincing systems to join it.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I can't recall if in the OT it was ever stated they wanted to rebuild the Republic (in fact I can't recall the Republic being mentioned at all in the OT). They wanted to defeat the Empire. Which in this multi-polar galaxy idea, they did that. So having a fractured but peaceful galaxy wouldn't be saying the OT heroes failed in the slightest.

[ray245]

It's only a near-complete failure if the galaxy is still largely at war.

If the galaxy consists of many separate governments that are mostly coexisting peacefully, then the OT characters still succeeded. The Republic hasn't been rebuilt, but the oppression of the Empire is gone and has been replaced by something better.

Or you could go with the Republic growing slowly by diplomatically convincing systems to join it.

Children getting mass-kidnapped to build an entire army certainly isn't better in my opinion. Anarchy is not necessary better than oppression.

I can't recall if in the OT it was ever stated they wanted to rebuild the Republic (in fact I can't recall the Republic being mentioned at all in the OT). They wanted to defeat the Empire. Which in this multi-polar galaxy idea, they did that. So having a fractured but peaceful galaxy wouldn't be saying the OT heroes failed in the slightest.

That's assuming the galaxy IS peaceful. The First Order seems to be operating with impunity. Mandalorian shows Imperial warlords are still running worlds pretty openly.

[MKSheppard]

I don't think it is. The problem with the ST is not merely about expanding the world. The novels and comics are trying to do that, but no one cares about them because the era itself is unattractive.

....

Also, the OT and the PT spans a number of years. You can tell numerous stories in the time-span.

The Sequel era went from New Republic being completely destroyed overnight, to First Order ruling over the Galaxy, to the Final Order being defeated in a span of a single fricking year. There really is not a lot of time to do a lot of storytelling for the characters.

...

I do not think the ST era is salvageable, and that is the ultimate problem Disney is going to have on their hands. They essentially killed their golden goose.

Reiterating something I said back on page 4 of this thread......Disney's big mistake with decanonizing the old EU was that even though it had become a bloated mess of itself, they failed to realize how dangerous de-canonizing it was. They opened Pandora's Box by doing such a massive level of retconning.

It's one thing to say "this never existed" and strike it...you usually will be forgiven by the fandom if it was that bad (Galactica 1980 anyone?)

We gave up Borsk Fey'la and his scheming bothan scum for....this?

Admiral Ackbar died...offscreen in a throwaway line for...this?

Mass Decanonization leads to splintering of the fandom as you break the taboo over dismissing things, making it legitimate for fans to create their own head canons.

In my head canon, the Disney Sequel Trilogy doesn't exist. Only Rogue One does. See how it works?

[Captain Seafort]

In my head canon, the Disney Sequel Trilogy doesn't exist.

Or some scavenger on Jakku spent longer than she should have rummaging around inside the big metal box of a Star Destroyer and ended up with heatstroke. I hear that can lead to quite extraordinary hallucinations.

[bilateralrope]

Children getting mass-kidnapped to build an entire army certainly isn't better in my opinion. Anarchy is not necessary better than oppression.

I'm not talking about anarchy. I'm talking about numerous different factions popping up to fill the power vacuum left by the demise of the Empire that are mostly coexisting. You don't need to have a single galactic government to have stability. Just governments that don't want to get into a shooting war with each other and mostly succeed at that. Still some problems that are going to take a while to sort out, but the overall galaxy is better than it was under the Empire and still improving.

The New Republic is only one of many factions in my idea. Maybe the biggest, but still only controlling a fraction of the galaxy.

The First Order was smaller during TFA and TLJ, so the New Republic focused on what it thought were more urgent problems. Until the First Order revealed that it had a superweapon.

[Gandalf]

Indeed. A pseudo anarchic galaxy opens up some huge possibilities in storytelling. So while some areas may have flourished with the loss of the Emperor, others may have gone downhill or gone in other wacky directions. Without a strong centralised Emperor to protect the moneyed classes, places that are "safe for rich people" like Canto Bight might pop up more.

[ray245]

Children getting mass-kidnapped to build an entire army certainly isn't better in my opinion. Anarchy is not necessary better than oppression.

I'm not talking about anarchy. I'm talking about numerous different factions popping up to fill the power vacuum left by the demise of the Empire that are mostly coexisting. You don't need to have a single galactic government to have stability. Just governments that don't want to get into a shooting war with each other and mostly succeed at that. Still some problems that are going to take a while to sort out, but the overall galaxy is better than it was under the Empire and still improving.

The New Republic is only one of many factions in my idea. Maybe the biggest, but still only controlling a fraction of the galaxy.

The First Order was smaller during TFA and TLJ, so the New Republic focused on what it thought were more urgent problems. Until the First Order revealed that it had a superweapon.

Indeed. A pseudo anarchic galaxy opens up some huge possibilities in storytelling. So while some areas may have flourished with the loss of the Emperor, others may have gone downhill or gone in other wacky directions. Without a strong centralised Emperor to protect the moneyed classes, places that are "safe for rich people" like Canto Bight might pop up more.

That would have been interesting...if that's what they actually went with for Ep 7.

It still sort of take away the glamour from the heroes of the OT. In the sense that the rebellion failed to re-establish the Republic. The rebellion was not meant to be a separatist movement. It was largely led by the core worlds as they seek to put an end to the imperial system and re-establish the rule of the senate.

[bilateralrope]

That would have been interesting...if that's what they actually went with for Ep 7.

It still sort of take away the glamour from the heroes of the OT. In the sense that the rebellion failed to re-establish the Republic. The rebellion was not meant to be a separatist movement. It was largely led by the core worlds as they seek to put an end to the imperial system and re-establish the rule of the senate.

I don't think Disney needs to change anything that appeared on screen to implement this idea for future Star Wars. Just give additional context.

Also, you don't need to say that the rebellion failed to reestablish the rule of the senate. Just that they haven't reestablished it yet. Convincing those various other governments that they should join the New Republic isn't going to happen quickly. But if the NR exists and is growing steadily, then it's still a victory for the Rebellion. Just not an instant victory.

[ray245]

I don't think Disney needs to change anything that appeared on screen to implement this idea for future Star Wars. Just give additional context.

How are they going to give it context? When everything happened so quickly in just over a year.

Also, you don't need to say that the rebellion failed to reestablish the rule of the senate. Just that they haven't reestablished it yet. Convincing those various other governments that they should join the New Republic isn't going to happen quickly. But if the NR exists and is growing steadily, then it's still a victory for the Rebellion. Just not an instant victory.

The fact that the NR was so utterly wiped out after the starkiller base attack, and their failure to event prevent a mass kidnapping going on in the galaxy does not suggest it was a successful victory if you look at the grand picture.

The galaxy lost yet another core world that can never be rebuilt because of the failure of the NR.

[bilateralrope]

How are they going to give it context? When everything happened so quickly in just over a year.

With new works that show us what the rest of the galaxy was up to during that time.

[ray245]

With new works that show us what the rest of the galaxy was up to during that time.

Would they be willing to go against the spirit of what has been established in the movies? ROS established the idea that the whole galaxy folded almost very neatly into the rule of the First Order, with no other significant resistance against them bar the resistance itself.

[Batman]

RoS established jack all. The entire ST didn't. That's the entire lack of worldbuilding point people have been making.

[bilateralrope]

With new works that show us what the rest of the galaxy was up to during that time.

Would they be willing to go against the spirit of what has been established in the movies? ROS established the idea that the whole galaxy folded almost very neatly into the rule of the First Order, with no other significant resistance against them bar the resistance itself.

So we just need an explanation of why the galaxy folded. Palpatine is back from the dead with fleet of planet killers, so that's going to lead to a lot of governments deciding to give in now instead of risking whatever he will do to those that resist.

[Gandalf]

That would have been interesting...if that's what they actually went with for Ep 7.

It still sort of take away the glamour from the heroes of the OT. In the sense that the rebellion failed to re-establish the Republic. The rebellion was not meant to be a separatist movement. It was largely led by the core worlds as they seek to put an end to the imperial system and re-establish the rule of the senate.

What do we learn about the Rebellion from the OT filmes except for their disdain for the Empire?

[chimericoncogene]

If you check Wookieepedia, it looks like they really are doubling down on the "NR was the big cheese" angle. Apparently, like the clone wars era Republic, it was brought down from within by corruption and secession.
You can still take "poor control of member worlds" and spin a multipolar galaxy from that, but that doesn't quite seem to be the intent of the author. When has that ever stopped us! DEATH OF THE AUTHOR!

[The Romulan Republic]

I think, as time goes on, that the ST is probably salvageable, if one took certain steps which no one at Disney seems interested in taking.

This is of course about how one would fix the mess now, not what should have been done in the first place, which is a very different question.

I don't think it is. The problem with the ST is not merely about expanding the world. The novels and comics are trying to do that, but no one cares about them because the era itself is unattractive.

The prequels era, despite the flaws of the movies itself, remains attractive for fans because it has a vast cast of extended minor characters that are interesting. Prequels gave us a large cast of Jedi knights and masters with their own backstory to explore. The sequel era killed off all of its Jedi bar Rey.

The OT era gave us a vast cast of Rebels, a massive organisation with splinter cells and differing ideological factions. The Sequel era gave us a resistance that is barely bigger than a squadron of fighters, with a big massive fleet that came out of nowhere in ROS. That makes it hard to have any characters worth exploring.

Also, the OT and the PT spans a number of years. You can tell numerous stories in the time-span. The Sequel era went from New Republic being completely destroyed overnight, to First Order ruling over the Galaxy, to the Final Order being defeated in a span of a single fricking year. There really is not a lot of time to do a lot of storytelling for the characters. And the fact that the sequels makes it clear there was no widespread resistance against the FIrst Order bar the resistance makes it more challenging to even tell a story about a diverse resistance faction going against the FIrst Order.

I do not think the ST era is salvageable, and that is the ultimate problem Disney is going to have on their hands. They essentially killed their golden goose.

I disagree, if only because the ST does so little that you can tell almost the same story after it as you could have before it. And while you may disagree, trust me when I say that there are a lot of people who do like the new characters and actors- they just wish they'd been in a better story.

And Disney is going to have to fix it, because the alternative is decanonizing it, which a) isn't going to happen, and b) would be a massive insult to all the talented people who worked on those films and had no hand in the writing decisions.

However, I don't think there's much point trying any fix, or a reboot, or anything, until Disney learns not to listen to the OT "purist" crowd. As long as they're calling the shots, and bullying Disney into adhering to their line, they're just going to repeat the same mistakes.

[ray245]

What do we learn about the Rebellion from the OT filmes except for their disdain for the Empire?

That the rebellion had the support of senators? And it is primarily an issue of giving power back to the senate? As seen in ANH.

So we just need an explanation of why the galaxy folded. Palpatine is back from the dead with fleet of planet killers, so that's going to lead to a lot of governments deciding to give in now instead of risking whatever he will do to those that resist.

Yes, but the duration between Palpatine announcing he has returned and his second fall took place in a matter of days, if not weeks at best.

I disagree, if only because the ST does so little that you can tell almost the same story after it as you could have before it. And while you may disagree, trust me when I say that there are a lot of people who do like the new characters and actors- they just wish they'd been in a better story.

And Disney is going to have to fix it, because the alternative is decanonizing it, which a) isn't going to happen, and b) would be a massive insult to all the talented people who worked on those films and had no hand in the writing decisions.

However, I don't think there's much point trying any fix, or a reboot, or anything, until Disney learns not to listen to the OT "purist" crowd. As long as they're calling the shots, and bullying Disney into adhering to their line, they're just going to repeat the same mistakes.

Liking the characters as played by the actors is one thing. Staying invested in the characters themselves is another thing altogether.

[Civil War Man]

Yes, but the duration between Palpatine announcing he has returned and his second fall took place in a matter of days, if not weeks at best.

If I remember correctly, it was even worse than that. I believe there was some throwaway line during Poe's "Somehow Palpatine returned" briefing that Palpatine's attack on every planet was going to happen in 18 hours, so the entirety of the movie takes place in less than a single day.

[ray245]

Yes, but the duration between Palpatine announcing he has returned and his second fall took place in a matter of days, if not weeks at best.

If I remember correctly, it was even worse than that. I believe there was some throwaway line during Poe's "Somehow Palpatine returned" briefing that Palpatine's attack on every planet was going to happen in 18 hours, so the entirety of the movie takes place in less than a single day.

For fuck sake. The resistance went from being down to nothing to having a big fleet appear out of nowhere in a matter of a single freaking day?

[chimericoncogene]

For fuck sake. The resistance went from being down to nothing to having a big fleet appear out of nowhere in a matter of a single freaking day?

I actually found that element the most creative and reasonable in the movie. The galaxy is huge. Every planet has to have some kind of military force, even if just to shoot at the odd pirate. Even the Naboo had a Starfighter wing.

Just call in system defense squadrons from 100,000 systems, and bingo bango, massive armada of crappy ships.

They weren't resistance ships. Just random sector and systems defense forces that didn't want their homeworlds blown up.

Not particularly thrilling, since the execution was godawful, but at the very least logical.

This sort of thing is precisely why we all thought the Empire and Republic needed hundreds of thousands of capships at least to fight meaningful galactic scale wars.

[ray245]

I actually found that element the most creative and reasonable in the movie. The galaxy is huge. Every planet has to have some kind of military force, even if just to shoot at the odd pirate. Even the Naboo had a Starfighter wing.

Just call in system defense squadrons from 100,000 systems, and bingo bango, massive armada of crappy ships.

They weren't resistance ships. Just random sector and systems defense forces that didn't want their homeworlds blown up.

Not particularly thrilling, since the execution was godawful, but at the very least logical.

Which doesn't gel well with the opening crawl saying the First order is now dominant of the Galaxy.

[MKSheppard]

And Disney is going to have to fix it, because the alternative is decanonizing it, which a) isn't going to happen, and b) would be a massive insult to all the talented people who worked on those films and had no hand in the writing decisions.

Like decanonizing the previous EU wasn't a massive insult to the talented people who worked on those RPGs, video games, novels and comic books?