New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

[The Romulan Republic]

The problem with the Holdo vs Poe plot is that they were both acting like they couldn't communicate openly despite the fact that there was no clear reason why this was the case. It almost feels like there was a previous version of the script in which there was a plot involving a spy within the Resistance that prevented them from talking openly, before that was deemed to be too complicated.

I do think the film might have been stronger if they had explicitly referred to the possibility of a spy on board- but its pretty easy to infer.

It also is worth remembering that literally hundreds of people probably died on those transports because Poe didn't understand com security, which kind of retroactively justifies Holdo not telling him shit (as does him throwing a tantrum and accusing her of treason when she tries to explain the plan).

You don't trust essential information about a plan which depends on secrecy to work on a known insubordinate hot head who doesn't need to know.

One thing I wonder: how much did Rose known? Presumably not the whole plan, but IIRC wasn't she involved in the stealth tech for the transports? Or am I misremembering? So did she know the plan and decide to go along with Poe and Finn anyway for whatever reason? Or was she only involved in developing the tech. without knowing what it was for (in either case, she would have done so before Holdo took command, back when it was Leia's plan)?

[ray245]

You can make those inferences because you know the rest of Star Wars. I just watched that scene again - there is precisely one mention of "the old Republic" - Tarkin's "the last remnants of the old Republic have been swept away. One officer (Tagge I think) says "the Rebellion is too well equipped...the Rebellion will continue to gain the support of the Imperial Senate."

Except we have the line about "how will the empire keep the systems in line without the senate". It tells us that the empire relied upon the senate to keep the Galaxy unified, and without the senate, regional governors will take over with the empire relying on the death star to keep systems in line.

And a rebellion is an internal conflict, and given that the senators seems to have a vested interest in keeping the senate as one of the last institutions of the old Republic alive, it is possible to infer that the rebellion is about re-establishing the old Republic to some extend.

The additional bit of information we have peppered throughout the movie is the constant harking back to the Old Republic as an era of peace and prosperity for the Galaxy. Obi-Wan's comments to Luke about his past and what he thinks about the Old Republic as this old golden age sets up the idea that people are interested in restoring the old system.

Imperial Senate. IIRC, the Roman Empire had a Senate as well. We don't know that members of the Senate are "the major resistance to Imperial rule" as you put it - it's said that some of them are sympathetic to the Rebellion - nothing more. I don't see how you can "easily" infer from that that it's a republicanism v imperialism situation. Hell, from that scene, we could just as easily infer that the Rebellion, and it's sympathetic senators, is the early stages of a coup d'etat because some of those Senators think they should be on the Imperial Throne and not Palpatine.

That doesn't make sense, considering we have early scenes of Obi-Wan setting up the idea that things were peaceful and prosperous in the old Republic in contrast to the situation now under the rule of the empire.



So right from the start, we as the audience are given two contrasting options:
1. Old Republic = Everything was good, with the Jedi Knights keeping the peace
2. New Empire = Everything is now bad, and people suffer under tyrannical rule

This is a piece of information that sets up what the overarching conflict is about. Every other piece of exposition simply reaffirms this contrast even further. Then we are supposed to treat the Rebels as the good guys of the story. So naturally, the assumption that the restoration of the old republic is one of the aims of the rebellion follows very naturally from that. Just because things is not explicitly stated does not mean all the information aren't there.

Moreover, the notion of a Republic being swept away and turned into an empire is a constant theme in history. The Roman civil War that erupted to ensure the Republic is not overthrown is something we are all culturally familiar with.

Even Luke describes it as "the Rebellion against the Empire." One impression I always got from the OT (which makes sense given the ages of the main characters) is that they had a very good idea of what they were rebelling against but not such a good idea of what they were rebelling for.

The information we got from Luke's perspective is limited, but we have various other scenes that makes strong suggestions as to what the rebellion was fighting for.

[ray245]

I do think the film might have been stronger if they had explicitly referred to the possibility of a spy on board- but its pretty easy to infer.

It also is worth remembering that literally hundreds of people probably died on those transports because Poe didn't understand com security, which kind of retroactively justifies Holdo not telling him shit (as does him throwing a tantrum and accusing her of treason when she tries to explain the plan).

They died because people were driven to desperation and conducted a mutiny. Holdo doesn't even need to tell Poe the plan at all to reassure him. She literally just need to say " we have a plan but it cannot be revealed in public because of Operational security reasons" and that would have been better than what she actually said to Poe. Communication 101.

Telling an anxious crew worried about a lack of a plan "I have hopes and prayers" is one of the worst thing you can say as a leader, in any situation.

You don't trust essential information about a plan which depends on secrecy to work on a known insubordinate hot head who doesn't need to know.

See above.

One thing I wonder: how much did Rose known? Presumably not the whole plan, but IIRC wasn't she involved in the stealth tech for the transports? Or am I misremembering? So did she know the plan and decide to go along with Poe and Finn anyway for whatever reason? Or was she only involved in developing the tech. without knowing what it was for (in either case, she would have done so before Holdo took command, back when it was Leia's plan)?

Let's bear in mind that it is not merely Poe that has lost faith in the leadership of Holdo. Rose did. Finn did. The people who mutinied did. The people that tried to climb into the escape pods did.

This is why the Holdo subversion scene does not work. In order to work, you cannot have so many other members of the resistance feeling the exact same way about Holdo.

[Eternal_Freedom]

To be precise, the line is "how will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy." Also, Obi-Wan's comments about "for a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the old Republic. Before the dark times. Before the Empire" - given that he was one of those Jedi Knights and is now living on a backwater desert planet, he may not have an objective view (doubly so given the later "from a certain point of view" thing), and he's actively trying to convince Luke to come along with him to train as a Jedi, so again, not an objective view.

And if we're really being pedantic, based just on ANH, Obi-Wan doesn't mention the old Republic being happy and prosperous - just that the Jedi were "the guardians of peace and justice" before "the dark times" - Jedi as guardians of justice does not equate to the Republic as some golden age as you say. Besides "Things were great before, now they suck, we should go back to how it was" is a very common sentiment that is rarely reasonable in real life.

I get your point that the Empire is shown to be bad and the Rebels are the good guys, but I think you are over-inferring from the little information we have in ANH what the intentions and reasons are for the Rebels.

[The Romulan Republic]

They died because people were driven to desperation and conducted a mutiny. Holdo doesn't even need to tell Poe the plan at all to reassure him. She literally just need to say " we have a plan but it cannot be revealed in public because of Operational security reasons" and that would have been better than what she actually said to Poe. Communication 101.

Telling an anxious crew worried about a lack of a plan "I have hopes and prayers" is one of the worst thing you can say as a leader, in any situation.

And again, they went from zero to mutiny very quickly, and when she did try to tell Poe the plan, he threw a tantrum and accused her of treason in the middle of the bridge. Moreover, he was going behind her back almost immediately, and making critical comments about her leadership before he even spoke to her. So how is that her fault?

The likelier explanation is that morale was already shitty when she took over, and it was a result of the situation they were already in, not her leadership.

Let's bear in mind that it is not merely Poe that has lost faith in the leadership of Holdo. Rose did. Finn did. The people who mutinied did. The people that tried to climb into the escape pods did.

Finn at that point didn't care one way or another about the Resistance. He just cared about Rey and Poe personally. He'd have done the same damn thing if Leia was in command, or Ackbar, or anyone else who he didn't have a personal attachment to.

As to the people in the escape pods, considering they were fleeing almost immediately after Holdo took command, and apparently had been for some time, there was no time for their desertions to be a response to her supposed poor leadership. A point which I have also debunked on multiple prior ocassions.

Again, this is evidence of Holdo inheriting a bad situation, not causing one.

This is why the Holdo subversion scene does not work. In order to work, you cannot have so many other members of the resistance feeling the exact same way about Holdo.

And again, the vast majority of the crew took no active role in the mutiny. Granted, they didn't step in to stop it either, but most of the crew were, apparently, neutral.

[FaxModem1]

TRR, do you think that we're commenting on Holdo's bravery? Yes or no?

Or do you think we're talking about her failure as a leader? Yes or no?

I, personally, am talking about her lack of leadership. There's comparable scene in Farscape: the Peacekeeper wars wherein the leader of the Peacekeepers is asked by a subordinate about the war, and he responds as Holdo should have.

(cut to space, the Peacekeepers' fleet - then to the interior of Maryk's carrier)
MARYK: (reading a report) Is there nothing they can do? Then order retreat from Alentro Quadrant. Have Commander Spreddic regroup in defense of our nearest outposts.
PK OFFICER: Sir, how have the Scarrans moved so quickly through our forward positions? (while they talk, we see Grayza's figure in the background: she is listening intently)
MARYK: Because they have been planning this for many cycles, Lieutenant.
PK OFFICER: And you have a design to turn it around?
MARYK: Of course. In due time. (Grayza leaves, an unreadable expression on her face)

Note how one of the bad guy factions in Farscape, the Peacekeepers, are able to handle morale in a losing conflict better than Holdo is, by assuring their troops that there is a plan, and isn't blatantly insulting the officer for doing so. And Maryk is portrayed as not the greatest of leaders.

This is what Poe needed from his leadership, and the events of TLJ would have been avoided.

[ray245]

To be precise, the line is "how will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy." Also, Obi-Wan's comments about "for a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the old Republic. Before the dark times. Before the Empire" - given that he was one of those Jedi Knights and is now living on a backwater desert planet, he may not have an objective view (doubly so given the later "from a certain point of view" thing), and he's actively trying to convince Luke to come along with him to train as a Jedi, so again, not an objective view.

And if we're really being pedantic, based just on ANH, Obi-Wan doesn't mention the old Republic being happy and prosperous - just that the Jedi were "the guardians of peace and justice" before "the dark times" - Jedi as guardians of justice does not equate to the Republic as some golden age as you say. Besides "Things were great before, now they suck, we should go back to how it was" is a very common sentiment that is rarely reasonable in real life.

No, but he did state that the Jedi Order were able to maintain peace and justice much better than what we saw on screen about life under the Empire. So now there is no peace or justice, as innocents were gunned down just because they bought the wrong droid. Moreover, those lines implies that the reason things were better was because the old system was a Republic as opposed to an empire, and it was protected by Jedi Knights. It does set up the idea that the old order was much better than the current order.

I get your point that the Empire is shown to be bad and the Rebels are the good guys, but I think you are over-inferring from the little information we have in ANH what the intentions and reasons are for the Rebels.

Those little information can be added up, and looked at it collectively. Old Order as represented by the Jedi Knights and the Senate is consistently depicted as something that is much better than the current order. The theme of old vs new/existing order crops up again and again in different scenes. Yes, the rebellion might be about replacing one emperor with another, but it is unlikely.

The Tarkin scene explicitly states this is an issue of the central authority trying to impose control on its constituent parts, and not a rebellion about exchanging one emperor for another. So that means the rebellion can only be either a secessionist attempt, or an attempt to restore the old order. There is some evidence that suggest some member worlds might be trying to secede, but we do not have clear evidence this is so. The rebellion has never made any attempt to characterise itself as a new nation-state, or a new separate political entity. We get no hints of any mention of independence throughout the movies. Moreover, the Tarkin dialogue also suggest the Senate was the primary bureaucratic apparatus that keep the Galaxy unified in the same political order. The notion of a senate conveys the idea of elected representative, and the fact that senators seem to have their own voice independent of the military leaders of the empire reinforced that idea.

Those are all fairly reasonable inference to be made.

[ray245]

And again, they went from zero to mutiny very quickly, and when she did try to tell Poe the plan, he threw a tantrum and accused her of treason in the middle of the bridge. Moreover, he was going behind her back almost immediately, and making critical comments about her leadership before he even spoke to her. So how is that her fault?

The likelier explanation is that morale was already shitty when she took over, and it was a result of the situation they were already in, not her leadership.

Except She didn't try and tell Poe the plan. All that was said was they are going to keep on course running away from the empire ( when everyone knows they can't outrun the empire by this stage). Also, being sceptical of the new commander is perfectly legit thing to do. There is a difference between being sceptical and outright challenging the leadership. A new leader job is to reassure sceptics that they can lead people after all.

Poe only challenged Holdo's leadership when she failed to do what she needs to do in terms of communications as a leader.

Finn at that point didn't care one way or another about the Resistance. He just cared about Rey and Poe personally. He'd have done the same damn thing if Leia was in command, or Ackbar, or anyone else who he didn't have a personal attachment to.

As to the people in the escape pods, considering they were fleeing almost immediately after Holdo took command, and apparently had been for some time, there was no time for their desertions to be a response to her supposed poor leadership. A point which I have also debunked on multiple prior ocassions.

Again, this is evidence of Holdo inheriting a bad situation, not causing one.

But clearly there is sufficient time for Rose to help set up the cloaking devices for the ships. And Holdo's first speech to the crew in public was a near complete failure in terms of making any reassurance to nervous crew members.

And again, the vast majority of the crew took no active role in the mutiny. Granted, they didn't step in to stop it either, but most of the crew were, apparently, neutral.

That's not the point. The point is that Poe was not the only one feeling let down by Holdo. So the failure of Holdo as a leader is not limited to Poe alone.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Those are all fairly reasonable inference to be made.

I will concede that those inferences can be made. I'm still not sure how easily they can be made, but never mind. I could argue that Obi-Wan's comments explain his motivation but not necessarily the rebels' collective motivations but we're really delving into pedantry - which has it's place, but I concede the point.

[The Romulan Republic]

TRR, do you think that we're commenting on Holdo's bravery? Yes or no?

Poe alleged that she was a coward/traitor, and that was part of the justification for his mutiny. So its relevant when evaluating the legitimacy of his grievances, and the extent to which Holdo is at fault for them.

Or do you think we're talking about her failure as a leader? Yes or no?

I, personally, am talking about her lack of leadership. There's comparable scene in Farscape: the Peacekeeper wars wherein the leader of the Peacekeepers is asked by a subordinate about the war, and he responds as Holdo should have.

Then we come back to the crux of the issue: Did Holdo owe Poe an explanation for her actions? I would argue no, based on the facts that:

a) The plan depended on secrecy to work.

b) While not explicitly stated in the film, the risk of a spy on board can be inferred as a likely concern.

c) Poe was not "need to know"- he was not (so far as we know) high in the chain of command/succession, and his role (commander of now-destroyed fighter squadrons) was not relevant to the plan or the current situation.

d) Poe had recently been demoted for insubordination and recklessness, and furthermore introduced himself to Holdo by misrepresenting his rank after said demotion, which raises further questions about his reliability to be privy to such sensitive information- a concern which his actions subsequently proved valid when he discussed the plan over an unsecured com, resulting in its exposure to the enemy and the destruction of many transports along with likely hundreds of Resistance personnel.

e) Holdo's primary duty during the brief time she was in command (12 hours IIRC?) was to organize the evacuation- something which (perhaps due to the damage the command ship had suffered and the loss of most of the command staff) was evidently difficult to accomplish during the time frame depicted, as at least one officer was unable to evacuate from one of the escorts in time, and that evacuation was barely accomplished before said escort was destroyed. Taking the time to placate every individual officer would therefore have been an inefficient use of Holdo's time and resources under the circumstances, and there is nothing about Poe which entitled him specifically to special consideration.

It is possible that overall morale would have benefited slightly from Holdo making a vague promise of a plan during her initial speech, but it is questionable that it would have had a large effect. Most of the crew did not join in the mutiny, and the desertions appear to have been occurring before Holdo took command, likely due to the fleet's existing predicament. Poe, meanwhile, was not placated even when Holdo did reveal that she had a plan, instead responding by throwing a tantrum on the bridge and accusing her of cowardice and treason.

I think Holdo can be forgiven for not giving the most inspiring speech when she had just, due to circumstances beyond her control, inherited a hopeless situation, and was clearly doing her best to extricate her people from it- an effort which was undermined and hampered by Poe Dameron at every turn.

(cut to space, the Peacekeepers' fleet - then to the interior of Maryk's carrier)
MARYK: (reading a report) Is there nothing they can do? Then order retreat from Alentro Quadrant. Have Commander Spreddic regroup in defense of our nearest outposts.
PK OFFICER: Sir, how have the Scarrans moved so quickly through our forward positions? (while they talk, we see Grayza's figure in the background: she is listening intently)
MARYK: Because they have been planning this for many cycles, Lieutenant.
PK OFFICER: And you have a design to turn it around?
MARYK: Of course. In due time. (Grayza leaves, an unreadable expression on her face)

Note how one of the bad guy factions in Farscape, the Peacekeepers, are able to handle morale in a losing conflict better than Holdo is, by assuring their troops that there is a plan, and isn't blatantly insulting the officer for doing so. And Maryk is portrayed as not the greatest of leaders.

This is what Poe needed from his leadership, and the events of TLJ would have been avoided.[/quote]

Would it, though?

Poe had already expressed disappointment in her after hearing her speak for less than a minute, introduced himself by misrepresenting his rank, shortly thereafter went behind her back and endangered the fleet, and when he was finally informed of the plan, responded belligerently and falsely accused Holdo of cowardice and treason.

These are not the actions of a reasonable man, reaching a justifiable conclusion based on legitimate grievances. I don't entirely fault Poe, because its likely that he was acting in part out of grief and guilt over the recent destruction of his squadron, but his actions were not those of a rational and level-headed man.

[The Romulan Republic]

Late edit, but I'll just leave you with something that often gets overlooked:

Exactly two people are shown to die as a result of Holdo's actions, or under Holdo's command: the captain of the medical frigate, and herself. Every other Resistance death in the film occurs under Poe's command, or Leia's. Even the deaths on the transports, which occur due to a failure of her (really largely Leia's) plan are primarily others' fault- Poe for being careless on the coms, DJ for his betrayal, and arguably Finn and Rose for trusting DJ.

So, Holdo inherited an absolutely hopeless situation, one that she should probably never have been put in, and despite a mutiny managed to lose only two people, and one of them was herself via heroic sacrifice. In exchange, she destroyed a fleet. I'd say that's pretty fucking good. In fact, its the best casualty ration of any fleet or army commander in battle in the franchise by a light year.

Granted, she'd never have managed it if Hux was competent in the deployment of the forces under his command, but if Hux had been competent it wouldn't have mattered who was in command. Ackbar couldn't have won that battle. Thrawn couldn't have won that battle.

Holdo did an admirable job in an impossible situation, and her faults (mostly not having the right tone according to her critics, and not putting Poe in the brig) are far outweighed by her successes as a commander. Its honestly up there with Kirk Sr. in the 2009 Star Trek reboot.

"Your father was captain of a star ship for 12 minutes. He saved 800 lives...

[Gandalf]

d) Poe had recently been demoted for insubordination and recklessness, and furthermore introduced himself to Holdo by misrepresenting his rank after said demotion, which raises further questions about his reliability to be privy to such sensitive information- a concern which his actions subsequently proved valid when he discussed the plan over an unsecured com, resulting in its exposure to the enemy and the destruction of many transports along with likely hundreds of Resistance personnel.

Yeah, why are we supposed to sympathise with Poe at all, considering the film opens with him getting people killed for no great reason? It's a bit of a theme, wherein Poe doesn't see the big picture, but eventally learns better. Luke had to learn faith in the Force, and Poe gets to learn faith in his command structure.

[The Romulan Republic]

d) Poe had recently been demoted for insubordination and recklessness, and furthermore introduced himself to Holdo by misrepresenting his rank after said demotion, which raises further questions about his reliability to be privy to such sensitive information- a concern which his actions subsequently proved valid when he discussed the plan over an unsecured com, resulting in its exposure to the enemy and the destruction of many transports along with likely hundreds of Resistance personnel.

Yeah, why are we supposed to sympathise with Poe at all, considering the film opens with him getting people killed for no great reason? It's a bit of a theme, wherein Poe doesn't see the big picture, but eventally learns better. Luke had to learn faith in the Force, and Poe gets to learn faith in his command structure.

I'd say less "faith" than "hope", although the two can certainly be closely-related. The thesis of the film, insofar as it has one, seems to be that we need to hold on to hope in the face of seemingly hopeless situations, rather than give in to cynicism or despair. This theme is repeated throughout the film, for example:

-Holdo urges hope, and her plan (and Leia's) is ultimately about saving lives so they can live to fight another day. Poe assumes the worst and lashes out as a consequence, getting people killed.

-DJ is a cynic who sees no difference between the Resistance and First Order and does not believe things will change (echoing the "Both Sides" narrative in modern politics), and as a consequence readily sells out the heroes.

-Luke loses hope when he sees a vision of Kylo's future, and by considering killing him, makes that vision come to pass. He then loses hope in the Jedi and in himself, and isolates himself, believing the Jedi should be allowed to die. His redemption is to reject despair, rejoin the fight, and in doing so inspire others to continue fighting when they had turned their backs on the cause.

The message is a bit muddled at times- the film seems to go back and forth on whether "heroic sacrifice"-style suicide attacks are a good thing or a bad thing. But I think that's what Johnson was going for- a repudiation of the cynicism and defeatism common in modern political discourse.

Edit: To tie it back to the original topic, I think that what RoS should have done is focus on trying to build on that idea, by showing how Luke's sacrifice inspired others to rise up. Maybe tie it back to Broom Boy on Canto Bight, have him escape and start training with Rey. And/or do the Finn leads a storm trooper revolt plot, as his defection proves to others that they also can have a future outside the First Order. While Rey's story is about creating her own identity, in the absence of the family legacy she had hoped for.

[Formless]

TRR, do you think that we're commenting on Holdo's bravery? Yes or no?

Poe alleged that she was a coward/traitor, and that was part of the justification for his mutiny. So its relevant when evaluating the legitimacy of his grievances, and the extent to which Holdo is at fault for them.

You assume this has anything to do with Poe's complaints with her. Yet not one person here except yourself is conflating the audience's complaint with the character with Poe's complaint against her. To the degree that people defend Poe, it is because his perspective makes sense right up until the reveal that Holdo had a plan she refused to talk about... for some fucking reason. Its an Idiot Plot, to use TVTropes terminology, and unless you are writing a comedy, Idiot Plots frustrate the audience and ruin the fun of the movie. It is irrelevant whether or not she is actually a coward, unless you want to argue (as at least one person in this thread has) that the Holdo Maneuver is actually a cowardly act. The only thing that is relevant is that Poe's behavior is understandable given the power dynamic between them, and that Holdo not only fails him as a leader, but abuses him as a subordinate.

And lets be clear here. Poe accusing her of being a coward is not the same as her insulting him to his face multiple times in one scene. Why? Because of the unequal power dynamic. When he insults her, it is with the knowledge that she can throw him in the brig for insubordination if she wants to. When she insults him, only Leia can tell her to shut the fuck up, and obviously Leia is incapacitated at this point in the movie. Holdo's behavior left Poe with no recourse except to escalate from using his words to acting behind her back.

Here's another question I have for you TRR: would you be defending Holdo's behavior or honor if she were a male character?

Exactly two people are shown to die as a result of Holdo's actions, or under Holdo's command: the captain of the medical frigate, and herself.

First, a mutiny happened under her command, and while stun weapons do exist in Star Wars, we know they are painful and unpleasant, which undermines your entire argument regardless of whether people died or not. Second, its hard to believe everyone had their weapons set to stun when blasters in Star Wars are set to kill by default. Finally, its not at all true. And not just because you forgot that there was a third ship in the fleet that they sacrificed. When the shuttles started launching, Holdo was still in command. Yes, Leia was awake, but Holdo was still the one in charge of the evacuation, as evidenced by the fact she stayed aboard the Raddus. Then the shuttles started getting picked off by the Supremacy, which makes everyone who died on one a death under Holdo's command.

These deaths can also be attributed to Holdo herself, as it was because of Poe that Finn, Rose, and their disloyal friend were on the Supremacy and tipped off the First Order to the cloaking devices on the shuttles. Now I know that you are going to say that makes it Poe's fault but no-- its hers by definition. Because she is the admiral, the actions of her officers are her responsibility. And despite the demotion, Poe is one of her officers. Her treatment of him is depicted by the film itself to be a direct response to her stonewalling him for no reason except "I don't like fighter jockeys". Likewise, the deaths aboard the bombers are Poe's responsibility, but also Leia's because Leia was his CO, and she approved the plan. True, she also ordered him to abort it, which is why responsibility is shared in this case, but its still her people dying under her command. That's why Leia demoted him in the first place: she's took responsibility for the deaths by ensuring the man responsible for them can't fuck up future missions. So for the same reason and more, the deaths on the shuttles are Holdo's responsibility in every sense, and had she not sacrificed herself, Holdo would have had to answer to Leia for her treatment of Poe and the deaths that ensued because of her leadership failure. By killing her off, the filmmaker conveniently prevented this conversation from ever happening onscreen. And that is infuriating to think about.

Also, deaths are one thing, but why are you acting like the ships are unimportant? I know the film itself wants us to see human lives as more important than star cruisers, but the sad reality is that the audience knows that living soldiers can be replaced, while the Raddus is a multi-kilometer warship. Its literally worth more than the combined lives of all its crew, realistically speaking. What, are we only supposed to see objects as more important than people when its a Death Star or similar superweapon? I don't think that's how it works in real life. Wars aren't won by unarmed people.

Does that make it a bit clearer why the Holdo Maneuver is in fact evidence that she is actually a coward? And also the narrative problem with the Holdo Maneuver outside of its implications for Star Wars as a setting? It makes it look like Holdo had no intention of ever telling Leia how she actually treated Poe, especially given the line of bullshit she spouted about how the very traits she insulted him over are traits she likes in him. You can't have it both ways, unless she was actually flirting with him and he misunderstood, and that's a can of worms you do not want to open. Holdo sacrificing her life is not necessarily a heroic act, even by the film's own logic given that Rose refused to let Finn do the same thing later on. So by your own argument, even if it was only two (and it wasn't), two was more than enough to damn her.

[ray245]

Yeah, why are we supposed to sympathise with Poe at all, considering the film opens with him getting people killed for no great reason? It's a bit of a theme, wherein Poe doesn't see the big picture, but eventally learns better. Luke had to learn faith in the Force, and Poe gets to learn faith in his command structure.

Just because Poe is an idiot does not make his position any less valid. Even an idiot can take the right position from time to time, even if it is more accidental than by design.

I really dislike the whole idea that one person is right because the other person is wrong. It's a very reductive idea.

[ray245]

First, a mutiny happened under her command, and while stun weapons do exist in Star Wars, we know they are painful and unpleasant, which undermines your entire argument regardless of whether people died or not. Second, its hard to believe everyone had their weapons set to stun when blasters in Star Wars are set to kill by default. Finally, its not at all true. And not just because you forgot that there was a third ship in the fleet that they sacrificed. When the shuttles started launching, Holdo was still in command. Yes, Leia was awake, but Holdo was still the one in charge of the evacuation, as evidenced by the fact she stayed aboard the Raddus. Then the shuttles started getting picked off by the Supremacy, which makes everyone who died on one a death under Holdo's command.

These deaths can also be attributed to Holdo herself, as it was because of Poe that Finn, Rose, and their disloyal friend were on the Supremacy and tipped off the First Order to the cloaking devices on the shuttles. Now I know that you are going to say that makes it Poe's fault but no-- its hers by definition. Because she is the admiral, the actions of her officers are her responsibility. And despite the demotion, Poe is one of her officers. Her treatment of him is depicted by the film itself to be a direct response to her stonewalling him for no reason except "I don't like fighter jockeys". Likewise, the deaths aboard the bombers are Poe's responsibility, but also Leia's because Leia was his CO, and she approved the plan. True, she also ordered him to abort it, which is why responsibility is shared in this case, but its still her people dying under her command. That's why Leia demoted him in the first place: she's took responsibility for the deaths by ensuring the man responsible for them can't fuck up future missions. So for the same reason and more, the deaths on the shuttles are Holdo's responsibility in every sense, and had she not sacrificed herself, Holdo would have had to answer to Leia for her treatment of Poe and the deaths that ensued because of her leadership failure. By killing her off, the filmmaker conveniently prevented this conversation from ever happening onscreen. And that is infuriating to think about.

Also, deaths are one thing, but why are you acting like the ships are unimportant? I know the film itself wants us to see human lives as more important than star cruisers, but the sad reality is that the audience knows that living soldiers can be replaced, while the Raddus is a multi-kilometer warship. Its literally worth more than the combined lives of all its crew, realistically speaking. What, are we only supposed to see objects as more important than people when its a Death Star or similar superweapon? I don't think that's how it works in real life. Wars aren't won by unarmed people.

Does that make it a bit clearer why the Holdo Maneuver is in fact evidence that she is actually a coward? And also the narrative problem with the Holdo Maneuver outside of its implications for Star Wars as a setting? It makes it look like Holdo had no intention of ever telling Leia how she actually treated Poe, especially given the line of bullshit she spouted about how the very traits she insulted him over are traits she likes in him. You can't have it both ways, unless she was actually flirting with him and he misunderstood, and that's a can of worms you do not want to open. Holdo sacrificing her life is not necessarily a heroic act, even by the film's own logic given that Rose refused to let Finn do the same thing later on. So by your own argument, even if it was only two (and it wasn't), two was more than enough to damn her.

I really dislike the whole notion that you get to wash your hands off responsibility just because you can pin the blame on your subordinates. The point of a manager is to literally manage people, to carefully consider how their subordinates will behave and make the best decision in terms of managing their egos.

Leadership is their freaking job, and why leaders are given so much power and influence to do what is necessary to ensure the task can be completed.

[FaxModem1]

TRR, do you think that we're commenting on Holdo's bravery? Yes or no?

Poe alleged that she was a coward/traitor, and that was part of the justification for his mutiny. So its relevant when evaluating the legitimacy of his grievances, and the extent to which Holdo is at fault for them.

Not what I asked. Do you think WE'RE commenting on Holdo's bravery, yes or no?

Formless apparently is, but I am not. I am commenting on her capability as a leader, who decides to keep plans secret from subordinates and to insult subordinates when they ask questions, no matter what the behavior of the subordinate is.

Or do you think we're talking about her failure as a leader? Yes or no?

I, personally, am talking about her lack of leadership. There's comparable scene in Farscape: the Peacekeeper wars wherein the leader of the Peacekeepers is asked by a subordinate about the war, and he responds as Holdo should have.

Then we come back to the crux of the issue: Did Holdo owe Poe an explanation for her actions? I would argue no, based on the facts that:

a) The plan depended on secrecy to work.

b) While not explicitly stated in the film, the risk of a spy on board can be inferred as a likely concern.

c) Poe was not "need to know"- he was not (so far as we know) high in the chain of command/succession, and his role (commander of now-destroyed fighter squadrons) was not relevant to the plan or the current situation.

d) Poe had recently been demoted for insubordination and recklessness, and furthermore introduced himself to Holdo by misrepresenting his rank after said demotion, which raises further questions about his reliability to be privy to such sensitive information- a concern which his actions subsequently proved valid when he discussed the plan over an unsecured com, resulting in its exposure to the enemy and the destruction of many transports along with likely hundreds of Resistance personnel.

e) Holdo's primary duty during the brief time she was in command (12 hours IIRC?) was to organize the evacuation- something which (perhaps due to the damage the command ship had suffered and the loss of most of the command staff) was evidently difficult to accomplish during the time frame depicted, as at least one officer was unable to evacuate from one of the escorts in time, and that evacuation was barely accomplished before said escort was destroyed. Taking the time to placate every individual officer would therefore have been an inefficient use of Holdo's time and resources under the circumstances, and there is nothing about Poe which entitled him specifically to special consideration.

It is possible that overall morale would have benefited slightly from Holdo making a vague promise of a plan during her initial speech, but it is questionable that it would have had a large effect. Most of the crew did not join in the mutiny, and the desertions appear to have been occurring before Holdo took command, likely due to the fleet's existing predicament. Poe, meanwhile, was not placated even when Holdo did reveal that she had a plan, instead responding by throwing a tantrum on the bridge and accusing her of cowardice and treason.

I think Holdo can be forgiven for not giving the most inspiring speech when she had just, due to circumstances beyond her control, inherited a hopeless situation, and was clearly doing her best to extricate her people from it- an effort which was undermined and hampered by Poe Dameron at every turn.

(cut to space, the Peacekeepers' fleet - then to the interior of Maryk's carrier)
MARYK: (reading a report) Is there nothing they can do? Then order retreat from Alentro Quadrant. Have Commander Spreddic regroup in defense of our nearest outposts.
PK OFFICER: Sir, how have the Scarrans moved so quickly through our forward positions? (while they talk, we see Grayza's figure in the background: she is listening intently)
MARYK: Because they have been planning this for many cycles, Lieutenant.
PK OFFICER: And you have a design to turn it around?
MARYK: Of course. In due time. (Grayza leaves, an unreadable expression on her face)

Note how one of the bad guy factions in Farscape, the Peacekeepers, are able to handle morale in a losing conflict better than Holdo is, by assuring their troops that there is a plan, and isn't blatantly insulting the officer for doing so. And Maryk is portrayed as not the greatest of leaders.

This is what Poe needed from his leadership, and the events of TLJ would have been avoided.

Would it, though?

Poe had already expressed disappointment in her after hearing her speak for less than a minute, introduced himself by misrepresenting his rank, shortly thereafter went behind her back and endangered the fleet, and when he was finally informed of the plan, responded belligerently and falsely accused Holdo of cowardice and treason.

These are not the actions of a reasonable man, reaching a justifiable conclusion based on legitimate grievances. I don't entirely fault Poe, because its likely that he was acting in part out of grief and guilt over the recent destruction of his squadron, but his actions were not those of a rational and level-headed man.

Notice how Poe 180s in the film itself when briefed. So yes, the crux of his morale was that there was a plan, as opposed to Holdo's seeming incompetence and apathy when the ships around them are being blown up. And that it absolutely would have made Poe's attitude change. Poe's reaction to first seeing Holdo is, "Not what I expected", but he still remains polite and asks her what the plan is. He remains respectful, while she insults him for being a flyboy. The fleet had it's leadership beheaded via Kylo Ren's fighter squadron, so Poe's Need to know was pretty damn high, even if he had no squadron to lead, as he was still a high up officer, even if his demotion stayed.

Another thing to note is that, if secrecy is that important, what was Holdo/Leia going to do when they were on the planet and the supposed spy, never discussed in the film as a reason for the OPSEC and COMMSEC, BTW, broadcasts from the planet that they're all there and stranded, waiting to be killed? She clearly didn't have people searched for hidden transmitters on their person as they boarded the transports. So either the plan wasn't done for secrecy, or the secrecy didn't matter enough to ensure no one could broadcast, thus making Holdo not doing things for secrecy, but because she dislikes Poe as a person and likes dishing it out on subordinates.

[NecronLord]

I, personally, am talking about her lack of leadership. There's comparable scene in Farscape: the Peacekeeper wars wherein the leader of the Peacekeepers is asked by a subordinate about the war, and he responds as Holdo should have.

(cut to space, the Peacekeepers' fleet - then to the interior of Maryk's carrier)
MARYK: (reading a report) Is there nothing they can do? Then order retreat from Alentro Quadrant. Have Commander Spreddic regroup in defense of our nearest outposts.
PK OFFICER: Sir, how have the Scarrans moved so quickly through our forward positions? (while they talk, we see Grayza's figure in the background: she is listening intently)
MARYK: Because they have been planning this for many cycles, Lieutenant.
PK OFFICER: And you have a design to turn it around?
MARYK: Of course. In due time. (Grayza leaves, an unreadable expression on her face)

Note how one of the bad guy factions in Farscape, the Peacekeepers, are able to handle morale in a losing conflict better than Holdo is, by assuring their troops that there is a plan, and isn't blatantly insulting the officer for doing so. And Maryk is portrayed as not the greatest of leaders.

Maryk's response to Poe would likely be to have him arrested at once, given that he gives a kill on sight order after Scorpius disobeys his orders, not only for Scorpius but...

PK OFFICER: Scorpius has powered off his onboard beacon. We have no way of tracking him.

MARYK: Broadcast this order. Highest priority. The instant his command carrier is spotted, it is to be fired upon. No hailing, no offer to surrender. I want this coward Scorpius and all who fly with him erased from existence!

PK OFFICER: Aye, Chancellor.

(while they talk another figure joins them on the command deck: at the beginning we see only a very pregnant belly, then Grayza comes into view)

GRAYZA: Scorpius is many things, Maryk. None of them good. But a coward? Never.

MARYK: He has initiated this war, and then turned and run! How do you define cowardice, Grayza?

GRAYZA: Grand Chancellor, (she joins her hands as if in prayer, using a very conciliatory tone) please consider my counsel on this carefully. Hatred of the Scarrans is Scorpius' sole consistent trait. There is something else.

MARYK: Perhaps. But my orders stand. (Grayza does not look pleased)

I think he might have dealt with Poe better, in that Poe wouldn't live to mutiny. He'd not even get in the room with Maryk if he'd just disobeyed orders and squandered a squadron; the rebellion being rather more rough and ready works reasonably well.

[Alkaloid]

Grayza also mutinied and murdered Maryk because she felt he was too weak/not competent enough to lead. And then lead the Peacekeepers into a straight up conflict with an enemy that outmatched them.

So possibly not the best example, unless your point is Holdo was lucky Poe didn't execute her as soon as he mutinied, because otherwise the situation is basically the same except there's no evidence of Maryk actually having a secret plan.

[Vendetta]

Yeah, the whole thing should have been avoided by Poe being in confinement awaiting formal charges for disobeying Leia's direct order to disengage and getting most of his squadron wiped out so that he could blow up a ship the enemy has more of.

Notice how Poe 180s in the film itself when briefed. So yes, the crux of his morale was that there was a plan, as opposed to Holdo's seeming incompetence and apathy when the ships around them are being blown up. And that it absolutely would have made Poe's attitude change. Poe's reaction to first seeing Holdo is, "Not what I expected", but he still remains polite and asks her what the plan is. He remains respectful, while she insults him for being a flyboy. The fleet had it's leadership beheaded via Kylo Ren's fighter squadron, so Poe's Need to know was pretty damn high, even if he had no squadron to lead, as he was still a high up officer, even if his demotion stayed.

The other thing to note about that scene is that when Poe is told the plan nobody else is surprised. It's not that there was any form of big secrecy going on, Poe didn't know the plan but basically the rest of the command staff did. It's not that Holdo wasn't telling anyone what she was planning, it's that she didn't tell Poe specifically.

Remember that all of the scenes on the resistance ship are presented from Poe's perspective, we only have the information he has and everything is framed to draw the audience into his headspace. He doesn't trust Holdo and he resents her because he expected to be named as commander (look at his face in the briefing after Leia is incapacitated, he's expecting it to be him), and he almost immediately starts working around and undermining her command because of that, even openly and loudly confronting her on the bridge after throwing a tantrum.

She even tells him that he specifically is out of the loop and for what she considers as good reasons, referencing his fuckup the last time he was involved in operational planning (got the entire bomber fleet killed) and saying that he's trigger happy, impulsive, dangerous, and the last thing we need right now.

The problem is not "Holdo didn't tell people the plan she is a bad leader", the problem is "Holdo didn't tell Poe the plan, and he's a resentful entitled shit who's just popular enough among the rest of the crew to stage a mutiny over it".

It's not OpSec, it's not CommSec, it's not even a secret plan at all. Poe isn't being told because he's a fuckup who is an active danger to anyone he has command over.

Poe is lucky he didn't spend the whole movie in the brig, Holdo had cause to put him there after his tantrum, and Leia did as well after he got everyone killed by disobeying a direct order to disengage (which would also have saved the fleet by letting them jump out before the rest of the First Order arrived to track them). The fact that he just got demoted two ranks causes absolutely no self reflection in him though until his next fuckup gets almost everyone else killed as well. (His dipshit plan working around his actual commander is what gives the stealth transports away).

[ray245]

Yeah, the whole thing should have been avoided by Poe being in confinement awaiting formal charges for disobeying Leia's direct order to disengage and getting most of his squadron wiped out so that he could blow up a ship the enemy has more of.

Notice how Poe 180s in the film itself when briefed. So yes, the crux of his morale was that there was a plan, as opposed to Holdo's seeming incompetence and apathy when the ships around them are being blown up. And that it absolutely would have made Poe's attitude change. Poe's reaction to first seeing Holdo is, "Not what I expected", but he still remains polite and asks her what the plan is. He remains respectful, while she insults him for being a flyboy. The fleet had it's leadership beheaded via Kylo Ren's fighter squadron, so Poe's Need to know was pretty damn high, even if he had no squadron to lead, as he was still a high up officer, even if his demotion stayed.

The other thing to note about that scene is that when Poe is told the plan nobody else is surprised. It's not that there was any form of big secrecy going on, Poe didn't know the plan but basically the rest of the command staff did. It's not that Holdo wasn't telling anyone what she was planning, it's that she didn't tell Poe specifically.

Remember that all of the scenes on the resistance ship are presented from Poe's perspective, we only have the information he has and everything is framed to draw the audience into his headspace. He doesn't trust Holdo and he resents her because he expected to be named as commander (look at his face in the briefing after Leia is incapacitated, he's expecting it to be him), and he almost immediately starts working around and undermining her command because of that, even openly and loudly confronting her on the bridge after throwing a tantrum.

She even tells him that he specifically is out of the loop and for what she considers as good reasons, referencing his fuckup the last time he was involved in operational planning (got the entire bomber fleet killed) and saying that he's trigger happy, impulsive, dangerous, and the last thing we need right now.

The problem is not "Holdo didn't tell people the plan she is a bad leader", the problem is "Holdo didn't tell Poe the plan, and he's a resentful entitled shit who's just popular enough among the rest of the crew to stage a mutiny over it".

It's not OpSec, it's not CommSec, it's not even a secret plan at all. Poe isn't being told because he's a fuckup who is an active danger to anyone he has command over.

Poe is lucky he didn't spend the whole movie in the brig, Holdo had cause to put him there after his tantrum, and Leia did as well after he got everyone killed by disobeying a direct order to disengage (which would also have saved the fleet by letting them jump out before the rest of the First Order arrived to track them). The fact that he just got demoted two ranks causes absolutely no self reflection in him though until his next fuckup gets almost everyone else killed as well. (His dipshit plan working around his actual commander is what gives the stealth transports away).

Except that's not quite true? We have other members of the resistance that didn't know about the plan, even though they do not fall under Poe's command?

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, the whole thing should have been avoided by Poe being in confinement awaiting formal charges for disobeying Leia's direct order to disengage and getting most of his squadron wiped out so that he could blow up a ship the enemy has more of.

Notice how Poe 180s in the film itself when briefed. So yes, the crux of his morale was that there was a plan, as opposed to Holdo's seeming incompetence and apathy when the ships around them are being blown up. And that it absolutely would have made Poe's attitude change. Poe's reaction to first seeing Holdo is, "Not what I expected", but he still remains polite and asks her what the plan is. He remains respectful, while she insults him for being a flyboy. The fleet had it's leadership beheaded via Kylo Ren's fighter squadron, so Poe's Need to know was pretty damn high, even if he had no squadron to lead, as he was still a high up officer, even if his demotion stayed.

The other thing to note about that scene is that when Poe is told the plan nobody else is surprised. It's not that there was any form of big secrecy going on, Poe didn't know the plan but basically the rest of the command staff did. It's not that Holdo wasn't telling anyone what she was planning, it's that she didn't tell Poe specifically.

Remember that all of the scenes on the resistance ship are presented from Poe's perspective, we only have the information he has and everything is framed to draw the audience into his headspace. He doesn't trust Holdo and he resents her because he expected to be named as commander (look at his face in the briefing after Leia is incapacitated, he's expecting it to be him), and he almost immediately starts working around and undermining her command because of that, even openly and loudly confronting her on the bridge after throwing a tantrum.

She even tells him that he specifically is out of the loop and for what she considers as good reasons, referencing his fuckup the last time he was involved in operational planning (got the entire bomber fleet killed) and saying that he's trigger happy, impulsive, dangerous, and the last thing we need right now.

The problem is not "Holdo didn't tell people the plan she is a bad leader", the problem is "Holdo didn't tell Poe the plan, and he's a resentful entitled shit who's just popular enough among the rest of the crew to stage a mutiny over it".

It's not OpSec, it's not CommSec, it's not even a secret plan at all. Poe isn't being told because he's a fuckup who is an active danger to anyone he has command over.

Poe is lucky he didn't spend the whole movie in the brig, Holdo had cause to put him there after his tantrum, and Leia did as well after he got everyone killed by disobeying a direct order to disengage (which would also have saved the fleet by letting them jump out before the rest of the First Order arrived to track them). The fact that he just got demoted two ranks causes absolutely no self reflection in him though until his next fuckup gets almost everyone else killed as well. (His dipshit plan working around his actual commander is what gives the stealth transports away).

Yeah, that's about the shape of it. Note also that his lack of discretion causing the plan to fail and get probably hundreds of people killed completely validates any doubts Holdo may have had about telling him anything.

Poe in TLJ is actually a much-needed deconstruction of both the Maverick/Lone Hero archetypes, and of entitled male privilege. I think that by setting us up to sympathize with Poe, and then pulling a subsequent reveal, Johnson was probably hoping to provoke some self-reflection in audiences about our own biases. The problem is that TLJ relied on using those archetypes and biases to fool the audience into believing Poe, and did such a good job of it (or those biases are so deeply ingrained in our society's collective consciousness) that a large portion of the audience point-blank refused and continues to refuse to accept the subsequent reveal. So the message that was taken away from it was that Holdo was corrupt or incompetent for not telling Poe everything and that Johnson was a bad writer and director, rather than that Poe was an arrogant hothead with an inflated sense of his own importance who needed to learn some humility and trust to be an effective leader. This despite the fact that the reveal didn't really come out of nowhere- the very first scene of the film sets up Poe's failings, and no less a beloved OT character than Leia calls him out on it and demotes him for it.

One might be tempted to conclude that Johnson's failure as a writer and director here was in giving the audience more credit for introspection and self-awareness than we collectively deserved.

[ray245]

Yeah, that's about the shape of it. Note also that his lack of discretion causing the plan to fail and get probably hundreds of people killed completely validates any doubts Holdo may have had about telling him anything.

Poe in TLJ is actually a much-needed deconstruction of both the Maverick/Lone Hero archetypes, and of entitled male privilege. I think that by setting us up to sympathize with Poe, and then pulling a subsequent reveal, Johnson was probably hoping to provoke some self-reflection in audiences about our own biases. The problem is that TLJ relied on using those archetypes and biases to fool the audience into believing Poe, and did such a good job of it (or those biases are so deeply ingrained in our society's collective consciousness) that a large portion of the audience point-blank refused and continues to refuse to accept the subsequent reveal. So the message that was taken away from it was that Holdo was corrupt or incompetent for not telling Poe everything and that Johnson was a bad writer and director, rather than that Poe was an arrogant hothead with an inflated sense of his own importance who needed to learn some humility and trust to be an effective leader. This despite the fact that the reveal didn't really come out of nowhere- the very first scene of the film sets up Poe's failings, and no less a beloved OT character than Leia calls him out on it and demotes him for it.

One might be tempted to conclude that Johnson's failure as a writer and director here was in giving the audience more credit for introspection and self-awareness than we collectively deserved.

Johnson's issue is he was too fixated on the end outcome, but fails to do the set-up necessary for the end payoff to work. Poe's hot-headness does not excuse Holdo's demoralising leadership. And you are making the exact same mistake that Johnson did, which is to see everything in purely binary terms.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, that's about the shape of it. Note also that his lack of discretion causing the plan to fail and get probably hundreds of people killed completely validates any doubts Holdo may have had about telling him anything.

Poe in TLJ is actually a much-needed deconstruction of both the Maverick/Lone Hero archetypes, and of entitled male privilege. I think that by setting us up to sympathize with Poe, and then pulling a subsequent reveal, Johnson was probably hoping to provoke some self-reflection in audiences about our own biases. The problem is that TLJ relied on using those archetypes and biases to fool the audience into believing Poe, and did such a good job of it (or those biases are so deeply ingrained in our society's collective consciousness) that a large portion of the audience point-blank refused and continues to refuse to accept the subsequent reveal. So the message that was taken away from it was that Holdo was corrupt or incompetent for not telling Poe everything and that Johnson was a bad writer and director, rather than that Poe was an arrogant hothead with an inflated sense of his own importance who needed to learn some humility and trust to be an effective leader. This despite the fact that the reveal didn't really come out of nowhere- the very first scene of the film sets up Poe's failings, and no less a beloved OT character than Leia calls him out on it and demotes him for it.

One might be tempted to conclude that Johnson's failure as a writer and director here was in giving the audience more credit for introspection and self-awareness than we collectively deserved.

Johnson's issue is he was too fixated on the end outcome, but fails to do the set-up necessary for the end payoff to work. Poe's hot-headness does not excuse Holdo's demoralising leadership. And you are making the exact same mistake that Johnson did, which is to see everything in purely binary terms.

Where are you getting that from? What evidence do you have that Johnson sees everything in binary terms? That's one critique I've never heard before- if anything he does so less than the norm for a franchise based on a metaphysical duality between Light and Dark.

I also see you have skated right over all the points as to why Holdo's leadership was not generally demoralizing (she inherited a demoralized crew, we see things mostly from Poe's perspective, not that of the crew as a whole, most of the crew did not support the mutiny, Holdo had other priorities than assuaging each individual officer, etc.) to just repeat the assertion. You also ignored where I just EXPLICITLY POINTED OUT the set-up for the reveal (Poe getting a bunch of people killed by disobeying orders, Leia demoting him for it).

[Vendetta]

Except that's not quite true? We have other members of the resistance that didn't know about the plan, even though they do not fall under Poe's command?

Yeah, and that's completely normal for any form of operational planning. What, do you expect the whole plan to be announced over the ship's PA or something?

At the very least the whole command staff knew what was going on. When Poe has his tantrum on the bridge about the transport ships being unarmed nobody else agrees with his concern, which implies that everyone else present knows that it isn't actually a valid concern.

All the people who would be expected to know about something in operational planning in any form of military seem to know. The people who don't know are people like hangar crew, fighter pilots, and maintainance staff who would not be expected to be told anyway until it was time to actually execute the plan and they needed to be briefed on their part in executing it, and Poe because he got specifically excluded from decisionmaking because he's a fuckup who can't be trusted.