Migration and integration

[ray245]

This is something I repeatedly hear in issues of immigration, and how migrants are not willing to integrate with the wider community. I just thought I should add something to this subject, especially given that I AM now a migrant from a non-western (abit heavily westernised) country living in "the West".

I would consider myself fairly well integrated with the people of the country I am living in. However, that said, I am well aware that this is not necessarily the norm or easy to achieve. Even someone a very westernised country can still experience a fair bit of culture gap, and many people who are non-white can experience many misconceived attitudes towards them that hampers and hinder their ability to build social networks with the "locals". There is a lot of social cues that someone who didn't grow up in a country fully understand.

Now, those are just some of the issues that someone who is very well educated and comes from a very privileged background might encounter when they migrate to a Western country. It becomes immensely more difficult if someone is from a less privileged position moving and trying to integrate in the "west". Take for example your housewives who simply isn't spending much time outside of their family, or even if they do, they do not speak the local language. They can certainly try and integrate with other mothers and etc, but someone who is still learning the language will find it extremely hard to click with the locals. And even if they do, there are many, many social cues that someone from a different country will miss out on.

Integration is easier said than done.

[Jub]

Take for example your housewives who simply isn't spending much time outside of their family, or even if they do, they do not speak the local language. They can certainly try and integrate with other mothers and etc, but someone who is still learning the language will find it extremely hard to click with the locals.

This and the parents and grandparents brought along later are one of the issues I have with immigrants in my community. I understand that it's difficult, and that a lot of first generation immigrants will never fully get either the language or the culture, but that's no excuse to live here for years and not be able to get through a basic conversation in their new nation's language. There are literally free programs that will teach you language skills so even a housewife from a family that can't afford formal education should be able to achieve a passable level of ability if they genuinely want to.

In the case where they don't, I have trouble with people that just want to come to the west for the increased economic standards when they're not willing to invest the effort into even a basic level of integration.

[Jub]

Ghetto Edit: There's also something that bothers me about the high inequal balance of power in a household where only the breadwinner can speak the local language. It's going to be very hard for the stay at home partner to leave an abusive situation if they are isolated from a lot of resources.

[ray245]

This and the parents and grandparents brought along later are one of the issues I have with immigrants in my community. I understand that it's difficult, and that a lot of first generation immigrants will never fully get either the language or the culture, but that's no excuse to live here for years and not be able to get through a basic conversation in their new nation's language. There are literally free programs that will teach you language skills so even a housewife from a family that can't afford formal education should be able to achieve a passable level of ability if they genuinely want to.

In the case where they don't, I have trouble with people that just want to come to the west for the increased economic standards when they're not willing to invest the effort into even a basic level of integration.

The problem is not the free programs. It's finding time and opportunity to get on those programs, and even when you do, it's about finding people you can speak with on a constant basis. I know about a housewife whose husband paid for her English lessons and actively wants her to learn English. The problem is, she is a housewife and thus spends most of her time at home and they simply do not speak English at home ( which is fairly obvious). But that means she does not spend enough time to practice speaking the language.

Have you tried learning a second language before? Especially one that is NOT an European language?

Ghetto Edit: There's also something that bothers me about the high inequal balance of power in a household where only the breadwinner can speak the local language. It's going to be very hard for the stay at home partner to leave an abusive situation if they are isolated from a lot of resources.

Most country's migration laws now mandate the spouse to have to speak the language as well, and I know of one example where the partner actively wants his spouse to learn English.

[Jub]

The problem is not the free programs. It's finding time and opportunity to get on those programs, and even when you do, it's about finding people you can speak with on a constant basis. I know about a housewife whose husband paid for her English lessons and actively wants her to learn English. The problem is, she is a housewife and thus spends most of her time at home and they simply do not speak English at home ( which is fairly obvious). But that means she does not spend enough time to practice speaking the language.

Why can't they speak English at home as a means of practice for her? Why doesn't he mind the house on his days off so she can get out and socialize? These are solvable issues for them and they aren't doing it.

Have you tried learning a second language before? Especially one that is NOT an European language?

Yes, I took Japanese in high school and was terrible at it. Though a lot of that was to do with how little I was applying myself to any of my course I was attending. I've also dabbled with Dutch in Duolingo and it wasn't awful, though it is said to be the easiest language for an English speaker to learn so *shrug*.

Most country's migration laws now mandate the spouse to have to speak the language as well, and I know of one example where the partner actively wants his spouse to learn English.

That's a good thing. I'd want to extend it to other family members they would bring over as well (parents, siblings, cousins, etc.) though I recognize that it's not going to be easy to get older people speaking a new language.

[ray245]

Why can't they speak English at home as a means of practice for her? Why doesn't he mind the house on his days off so she can get out and socialize? These are solvable issues for them and they aren't doing it.

How many people speak their second language at home? As for socialising...if she is finding people she can speak English with, native speakers more often than not do not have the patience and understanding to a new language learner.

Yes, I took Japanese in high school and was terrible at it. Though a lot of that was to do with how little I was applying myself to any of my course I was attending. I've also dabbled with Dutch in Duolingo and it wasn't awful, though it is said to be the easiest language for an English speaker to learn so *shrug*.

Learning a second language is hard, and if you find it challenging to learn it despite having being in a privileged position, do you think it's easy for a migrant to learn a second language?

That's a good thing. I'd want to extend it to other family members they would bring over as well (parents, siblings, cousins, etc.) though I recognize that it's not going to be easy to get older people speaking a new language.

Being multi-lingual is hard for a lot of people. I find that the English speaking world don't really have much of a leg to stand on considering how bad most English-speaking countries is at learning a second language.

[mr friendly guy]

This is something I repeatedly hear in issues of immigration, and how migrants are not willing to integrate with the wider community. I just thought I should add something to this subject, especially given that I AM now a migrant from a non-western (abit heavily westernised) country living in "the West".

This cry about failure to integrate has been going on for a while. In Australia there was this cry about Asians in 1990s, and now people from Islamic countries. I am sure before that there were the same cries against Italians and Greeks.

This thing that I still remember from our social studies classes was that children of immigrants turn out to be more like the local population, because they go to the schools, learn the language etc. Even if you have an old matriarch who doesn't know the language (and we still do see old Italian grandmothers in hospital with their 2nd generation relatives translating for them), their children and grandchildren get integrated. Meaning that it takes time even if its the second generation.

Now with Islamic migrants, what you here from some right wingers (at least the European variety rather than Australian or US) it goes along the lines of its only Muslims. For example Tommy Robinson and his ilk will say we get on well with Sikhs, Asians etc but its just Muslims are not integrating. There might be some truth to that, but I wonder how many of these Muslims that don't integrate are second or third generation? Generally if the trends with other minorities hold true, by second or third generation they become similar to the population of the country they migrated to. If its still an issue we have to ask why? Is it tenets of Islam, or is it discrimination or both.

On another note, at least with Asian immigration to Australia, at least officially the government wanted to portray us as not racist to Asians because of trade. I don't think there is such a strong economic incentive with the Islamic countries.

[ray245]

This is something I repeatedly hear in issues of immigration, and how migrants are not willing to integrate with the wider community. I just thought I should add something to this subject, especially given that I AM now a migrant from a non-western (abit heavily westernised) country living in "the West".

This cry about failure to integrate has been going on for a while. In Australia there was this cry about Asians in 1990s, and now people from Islamic countries. I am sure before that there were the same cries against Italians and Greeks.

This thing that I still remember from our social studies classes was that children of immigrants turn out to be more like the local population, because they go to the schools, learn the language etc. Even if you have an old matriarch who doesn't know the language (and we still do see old Italian grandmothers in hospital with their 2nd generation relatives translating for them), their children and grandchildren get integrated. Meaning that it takes time even if its the second generation.

Now with Islamic migrants, what you here from some right wingers (at least the European variety rather than Australian or US) it goes along the lines of its only Muslims. For example Tommy Robinson and his ilk will say we get on well with Sikhs, Asians etc but its just Muslims are not integrating. There might be some truth to that, but I wonder how many of these Muslims that don't integrate are second or third generation? Generally if the trends with other minorities hold true, by second or third generation they become similar to the population of the country they migrated to. If its still an issue we have to ask why? Is it tenets of Islam, or is it discrimination or both.

On another note, at least with Asian immigration to Australia, at least officially the government wanted to portray us as not racist to Asians because of trade. I don't think there is such a strong economic incentive with the Islamic countries.

Integration takes time, but it is simply not happening at the time scale some people are happy with.

As for Muslim migrant families, I am not sure. But we know that there are many Muslims of migrant background that can be tolerant and accepting of differences. Education certainly plays a big role in this.

But more importantly, East Asian families generally have a strong emphasis on education of their children, or they have very decent financial resources. All those factors makes it easier in terms of integration. When you are in the middle class or above, integration is much easier because you can spend more time socialising with other middle or higher income people.

The same cannot be said about many Muslim families of less well-off background. They have to spend more time working in a lower paid job, which equates to less time socialising with the wider community, which affects the time they can spend with their children and etc.

Integration is often a luxury afforded to the privileged. I can develop my social network in my current country because I am lucky enough to belong to an institution that enables me the time and social venues to build relationships.

[AniThyng]

I do think imposing an arbitrary religious based condition for integration is a big factor - just compare and contrast the integration of the Chinese community in the Philippines and Thailand versus Malaysia and Indonesia to see the difference... Well that and a critical mass of immigrants sufficiently large as to be a community unto themselves - the % of Chinese in Malaysia is still much higher then any other SEA state except Singapore.

[AniThyng]

Though I suppose there's also an element of Western bias here too - many Malaysian Chinese will adopt an English name not just for religious reasons (baptismal name or whatever) but just for cool factor or to make things easier in English, but adopting a "malay" name for any reason other than conversation into Islam practically never happens.

[ray245]

Though I suppose there's also an element of Western bias here too - many Malaysian Chinese will adopt an English name not just for religious reasons (baptismal name or whatever) but just for cool factor or to make things easier in English, but adopting a "malay" name for any reason other than conversation into Islam practically never happens.

The British also didn't help when they delineated the various ethnic groups during colonial times.

[AniThyng]

Though I suppose there's also an element of Western bias here too - many Malaysian Chinese will adopt an English name not just for religious reasons (baptismal name or whatever) but just for cool factor or to make things easier in English, but adopting a "malay" name for any reason other than conversation into Islam practically never happens.

The British also didn't help when they delineated the various ethnic groups during colonial times.

Sure, but I feel that by this point it's a cop out to keep on blaming the British for Malaysian Chinese refusal/disinclination to assimilate or integrate with contemporary Malay/Muslim cultural/religious expectations. Or vice versa, for that matter.

[His Divine Shadow]

It strikes me that I always see these "why can't they do X" as if it's the most reasonable thing in the world to expect them to do X and Y or whatever I happen to come up with at the spur of the moment. I know it's really easy for people to make demands of others, but we all know how we all react when demands are put on us, in our daily lives that we live and barely have time or energy to do more in.

There's this disconnect here that prevents people from putting themselves in other peoples shoes as well as correctly evaluating how their own behaviour would be in a similar situation, because in our heads, we're the hero in the story of our life and there are always reasons and valid excuses for me.

[ray245]

Sure, but I feel that by this point it's a cop out to keep on blaming the British for Malaysian Chinese refusal/disinclination to assimilate or integrate with contemporary Malay/Muslim cultural/religious expectations. Or vice versa, for that matter.

Not necessarily, but it does explain why the situation in Malaysia is different from say the situation in Thailand.

It strikes me that I always see these "why can't they do X" as if it's the most reasonable thing in the world to expect them to do X and Y or whatever I happen to come up with at the spur of the moment. I know it's really easy for people to make demands of others, but we all know how we all react when demands are put on us, in our daily lives that we live and barely have time or energy to do more in.

There's this disconnect here that prevents people from putting themselves in other peoples shoes as well as correctly evaluating how their own behaviour would be in a similar situation, because in our heads, we're the hero in the story of our life and there are always reasons and valid excuses for me.

Exactly.

[madd0ct0r]

When I was living as an immigrant husband...

During the day when I was working on site, mostly with a team who only shared English as a common language. I spoke some Vietnamese with crews there, but a) it is not the same as structured lessons, b) the Vietnamese I learnt was fairly useless outside of that context and c) there was a big mix of regional dialects between work crews, so imagine a Japanese engineer working with a Yorkshire concrete team and a Welsh water team and a Texan groundworks crew. Strongly accented dialect words can be largely understood in their own context but if the Japanese guy picks up some words from one and some words from another and uses them in a fruit salad sentence it is not going to be understandable. Even within my in-laws the mixture of accents and clarity when speaking is pretty variable. I would assume that is a universal thing.

I did not speak Vietnamese at home. My wife found my inability to learn a second language baffling and my grotesque use of Vietnamese infuriating. She collects languages as a hobby. I would periodically accidentally switch German and Vietnamese words because dyslexia means I struggle that much. She came home to relax l, not spend another six hours tutoring a terrible student.

I did have lessons. For quite a long time. I made rapid progress for a few months and then just stopped making any progress at all. Grammar rules I could memorise but I would loose vocab as fast as I learnt it. My teacher in the end gave up after about 15 lessons of testing the previous lesson and then having to repeat it. I could get by in a supermarket but not hold a good conversation or interact safely with doctors or police. Nearly all of the vocab I did not use often enough to keep. The parts for work I did, but they were useless in the less common situations (take this concrete two floors up. There someone working on a crack in the wall - doesn't come up much at the dinner table).

I did not socialise much. I was teaching English most evenings to supplement income. I watched films sometimes, but day to day tv didn't have programs that interested me. I tried to read but struggled to find stuff at a level I could read that was still interesting. And honestly, after 8hours on site and two-three teaching I was just as exhausted as anyone would be.

We had friends, but like my wife they preferred us to use English in order to take pleasure from the chat. We went to live music bars, but often ended up in backpacker bars or similar. We didn't get stared at there or have people call my wife a whore. Either way, although I listened to Vietnamese music, it's not a place for chatting. And a scraping clumsy repeated phrase set is hard work for both people when they are trying to relax.

If we went to a cafe, staff would actively ignore me and speak to my wife, or check my order with her because they did not believe I could use any Vietnamese (or that anyone drank black coffi). The only solution I found was to go on my own. But the second or third time I'd be a regular and given my usual without a word.

Family events I could scrape by with familiar phrases and pantomime, and often a cousin wanted to practice their English anyway. I did pick up a lot of social cues and understanding of expectations and stereotypes through the family, but not linguistic connections. I remain affectionately thought of, I think, but as the quiet eccentric outsider.

Integration as an adult is fucking hard. Vastly so if you struggle with language. Vastly so if there is any friction beyond the pure language issue that marginalises you from society.

[Civil War Man]

This is something I repeatedly hear in issues of immigration, and how migrants are not willing to integrate with the wider community. I just thought I should add something to this subject, especially given that I AM now a migrant from a non-western (abit heavily westernised) country living in "the West".

This cry about failure to integrate has been going on for a while. In Australia there was this cry about Asians in 1990s, and now people from Islamic countries. I am sure before that there were the same cries against Italians and Greeks.

How about this American classic from 1889?



(For those who don't know the context, the guy with the green flag and the knife represents the Irish)

[LadyTevar]

How about this American classic from 1889?

[img]https://i0.wp.com/www.markholan.org/wp- ... CK.jpg[img]

(For those who don't know the context, the guy with the green flag and the knife represents the Irish)

I note that the Irishman is depicted as having a primitive, ape-like face to go with the bloody knife.

[Civil War Man]

I note that the Irishman is depicted as having a primitive, ape-like face to go with the bloody knife.

Yup. I find looking at anti-Irish racism to be a good way at demonstrating just how disingenuous the hate-mongering of recent immigrants is. After all, according to those anti-immigrant activists, the Irish were filthy, violent thugs who refused to assimilate, and came over to both leech off the hard-earned money of Real Americans™ without doing any work while simultaneously stealing all of the jobs, and they practiced this weird religion that was different than the ones Real Americans™ follow. And they just come over here and have a whole bunch of babies and don't you know that they are outbreeding the Real Americans™?!

Also that primitive, ape-like face was standard for depictions of the Irish during that time in both the US and the UK.

[LadyTevar]

The seventh one looks more like the usual "Appalachia Man" depiction for the era. Since there's a lot of Irish/Scots in Appalachia, it may be a crossover.