This is really a tough one. The female / male doesn't really have room for intersex individuals like Semenya. On another note, does this mean that anti SJWs who don't believe in intersex conditions or at least believe it shouldn't stop people fitting neatly into male/female classification defend Semenya on principle?Caster Semenya loses testosterone appeal at Swiss supreme court
Posted 2hhours ago
Two-time Olympic champion Caster Semenya has lost her long legal battle against track-and-field rules that limit female runners' naturally high testosterone levels.
Switzerland's supreme court on Tuesday said its judges dismissed Semenya's appeal against a Court of Arbitration for Sport ruling last year that upheld the rules drafted by track's governing body affecting female runners with differences of sex development (DSD).
The 71-page ruling means Semenya cannot defend her Olympic 800-metre title at the Tokyo Games next year — or compete at any top meets in distances from 400 metres to the mile — unless she agrees to lower her testosterone level through medication or surgery.
The 29-year-old South African repeatedly said she will not do that and reiterated her stance in a statement through her lawyers on Tuesday.
"I am very disappointed by this ruling, but refuse to let World Athletics drug me or stop me from being who I am," she said.
"Excluding female athletes or endangering our health solely because of our natural abilities puts World Athletics on the wrong side of history."
The Swiss Federal Tribunal said Semenya's appeal "essentially alleges a violation of the prohibition of discrimination."
In a May 2019 verdict, the sport court's three judges had said in a 2-to-1 ruling the discrimination against Semenya was "necessary, reasonable and proportionate" to maintain fairness in women's track.
Testosterone is a hormone that strengthens muscle tone and bone mass, and is a doping product if injected or ingested.
The panel of five federal judges said on Tuesday it was limited to examining "whether the CAS decision violates fundamental and widely recognised principles of public order. That is not the case."
Semenya's "guarantee of human dignity" was also not compromised by the CAS ruling, the judges decided.
"Implicated female athletes are free to refuse treatment to lower testosterone levels. The decision also does not aim to question in any way the female sex of implicated female athletes," the federal court said.
Reacting to the verdict, Semenya said: "I will continue to fight for the human rights of female athletes, both on the track and off the track, until we can all run free the way we were born.
"I know what is right and will do all I can to protect basic human rights, for young girls everywhere."
Although exact details of Semenya's condition have never been released since she won the first of her three world titles in 2009 as a teenager, she has testosterone levels that are higher than the typical female range.
The Swiss court statement on Tuesday referred to female runners with "the genetic variant '46 XY DSD'."
World Athletics argued that gave her and other female athletes like her with DSD conditions and high natural testosterone an unfair advantage.
The rules Semenya appealed against require her to lower her testosterone to a level specified by the international track body for at least six months before competing.
Athletes have three options to do that: Taking birth control pills, having testosterone-blocking injections, or undergoing surgery.
Semenya took birth control pills for around five years until the world track body, then known as the IAAF, had to suspend its previous hyperandrogenism rules after a CAS appeal brought by sprinter Dutee Chand of India.
Testifying at her five-day hearing at CAS in February 2019, Semenya said taking the medication had unwanted side effects including making her injury prone.
Tuesday's federal judgment came more than a year after the 2012 and 2016 Olympic champion lost a previous ruling from the same court.
That July 2019 verdict overturned a temporary ruling which had allowed Semenya briefly to compete in the 800 metres at international events — winning a top-tier race at Palo Alto, California — without taking testosterone-suppressing drugs.
It is unclear what Semenya will choose to do next. She could compete in the 100 or 200 metres or at distances longer than the mile but she has never had the success in those events that she has had over two laps.
However, she had already switched her training this year to 200 metres, hinting that she was prepared to lose in court.
Greg Nott, Semenya's long-time lawyer in South Africa, said her international team of lawyers was "considering the judgment and the options to challenge the findings in European and domestics courts."
Any appeal to the European Court of Human Rights would likely not receive a judgment until after the Tokyo Olympics open next July.
Tuesday's judgment also came at a financial cost to Semenya and South Africa's track federation, which joined her appeal. Each was ordered to pay 7,000 Swiss francs ($6,051) to the court and 8,000 Swiss francs ($12,103) toward World Athletics' legal costs.
Caster Semenya loses testosterone appeal at Swiss supreme court
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Caster Semenya loses testosterone appeal at Swiss supreme court
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-09/ ... l/12643668
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Re: Caster Semenya loses testosterone appeal at Swiss supreme court
Unless and until we are prepared to ban high-performing mutants (and I say that intending no cruelty - some people's genetic quirks just raise the ceiling for high performance with training - Thorpe and Phelps, the two greatest swimmers in recent history, are both mutants of this kind) in male sports, we cannot justifiably ban them from women's sports.
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Re: Caster Semenya loses testosterone appeal at Swiss supreme court
I guess we should expect to go all Harrison Bergeron on sports then to remove any advantage that a given athlete may have.
Re: Caster Semenya loses testosterone appeal at Swiss supreme court
She's an Olympic athlete. None of them are anything resembling physically normal. This is supposed to be one of the venues where we unambiguously celebrate that.
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Re: Caster Semenya loses testosterone appeal at Swiss supreme court
Semenya is interesting. IIRC being intersex, she has the male chromosome, but due to her condition, she doesn't have a typical male body, but she does produce levels of testosterone more closer to what is usual for men, rather than women.loomer wrote: ↑2020-09-09 02:16am Unless and until we are prepared to ban high-performing mutants (and I say that intending no cruelty - some people's genetic quirks just raise the ceiling for high performance with training - Thorpe and Phelps, the two greatest swimmers in recent history, are both mutants of this kind) in male sports, we cannot justifiably ban them from women's sports.
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Re: Caster Semenya loses testosterone appeal at Swiss supreme court
So, she's a woman with unusually high testosterone?mr friendly guy wrote: ↑2020-09-09 05:42am
Semenya is interesting. IIRC being intersex, she has the male chromosome, but due to her condition, she doesn't have a typical male body, but she does produce levels of testosterone more closer to what is usual for men, rather than women.
Re: Caster Semenya loses testosterone appeal at Swiss supreme court
To be honest, it's not that interesting a case on that front. It only becomes interesting if we're either contemplating a rigid definition of sports based on genotypical chromosome determination or reforming the categories completely based on hormone levels rather than gender because otherwise, the gender boundaries must necessarily encompass all people we would ordinarily consider to belong to that gender, which Semanya certainly does alongside the other XY women (and, in the converse, which XX men do not belong to).
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Re: Caster Semenya loses testosterone appeal at Swiss supreme court
That's actually what I think the sporting bodies will end up doing. Defining gender based on either chromosome or hormonal levels. Which makes the case "interesting." Just to put it out there, I don't have a strong opinion either way, but I have a feeling society will be grappling with this question for some time.
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Re: Caster Semenya loses testosterone appeal at Swiss supreme court
I agree, that is most likely. Despite what alot of "Social Justice Warriors" think, chromosomes and hormonal levels do have a very serious impact on your biological gender, and that's what sporting bodies care about.
That's why only idiots were questioning letting Bruce Jenner keep his athletic awards. Internally, no matter what she now looks like, Ms. Jenner is male. We do not have the technology to safely change that. In 200 years, if Ms. Jenner is dug up, and there is no identification, her remaining bones will identify her as male.
Now, that being said, instead of doing things by chromosome, I think hormonal level competition categories would be a better idea. That would create and allow for intergender competition, thereby removing a gender barrier, and allow both Transgender and intersex individuals to be able to compete without a problem.
That's why only idiots were questioning letting Bruce Jenner keep his athletic awards. Internally, no matter what she now looks like, Ms. Jenner is male. We do not have the technology to safely change that. In 200 years, if Ms. Jenner is dug up, and there is no identification, her remaining bones will identify her as male.
Now, that being said, instead of doing things by chromosome, I think hormonal level competition categories would be a better idea. That would create and allow for intergender competition, thereby removing a gender barrier, and allow both Transgender and intersex individuals to be able to compete without a problem.
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Re: Caster Semenya loses testosterone appeal at Swiss supreme court
I'm somewhat dubious as to the utility of a hormone-level based strata system for dealing with this kind of thing unless we completely remove the distinction between mens and womens sports as well, and that has its own can of worms to deal with. Otherwise we wind up with basically what we've got currently, where one of the world's best athletes in their class is prohibited from competition due to a quirk of biology placing their hormone levels beyond 'acceptable' ranges for one set while not conferring a right to compete in the other. Such a system will also completely fail to account for non-hormone/chromosomal mutations that make for a better athlete like Phelps, accomplishing nothing except further stigmatizing intersex people as an exceptional kind of Other deserving of scrutiny and censure where others are permitted to excel on the same basis of biology.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A
Re: Caster Semenya loses testosterone appeal at Swiss supreme court
The main argument I hear is that girls won't see 'women like them' succeeding in sport and thus won't apply themselves and that this will somehow set back women's rights. Beyond that you get vague mumblings about fairness, the occasional fear monering about men transitioning just to win medals, and arguments that naturally occuring hormones are like doping. The arguments for this invasive testing and regulation basically boil down to treating transwomen and intersex individuals raised as women differently than 'true women' whatever that even means these days.
Re: Caster Semenya loses testosterone appeal at Swiss supreme court
Are we going to limit the hormone levels of make athletes too? " Lthe normal range in males is about 270-1070 ng/dL with an average level of 679 ng/dL. "
Should we ban a man with unusually high testotorone levels from sports, or does this only apply to ladies?
Should we ban a man with unusually high testotorone levels from sports, or does this only apply to ladies?
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Re: Caster Semenya loses testosterone appeal at Swiss supreme court
My understanding is we already do. I believe what caught her is they are testing for people taking testosterone supplements. If you test above a certain level they assume you are taking prohibited supplements. She has proven she isn't, that the level she tests at is her natural level, but is still banned from participating. Thus the court case.
Nicholas
Re: Caster Semenya loses testosterone appeal at Swiss supreme court
I could have been clearer. Should we ban a man with NATURALLY unusually high testotorone levels from sports, or does this only apply to ladies? Say occuring from a begin tumor on a testosterone producing glandNicholas wrote: ↑2020-09-10 05:30pmMy understanding is we already do. I believe what caught her is they are testing for people taking testosterone supplements. If you test above a certain level they assume you are taking prohibited supplements. She has proven she isn't, that the level she tests at is her natural level, but is still banned from participating. Thus the court case.
Nicholas
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