China releases white paper on Uyghur camps; estimates several million Uyghurs subject to them

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China releases white paper on Uyghur camps; estimates several million Uyghurs subject to them

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China defends its ‘vocational training centres’ in Xinjiang white paper

China released a white paper on Thursday claiming that its far western Xinjiang region
has provided “vocational training” to nearly 1.3 million workers every year on average from 2014 to 2019.

It comes as Beijing is facing mounting criticism from Western countries and human rights groups over its policies in the region, where it is believed to have detained at least 1 million Uygurs and other ethnic Muslim minorities in internment camps.

China has been accused of subjecting detainees to political indoctrination and forced labour in the camps, but it has denied the allegations and insisted they are “vocational training centres” where people learn language and job skills.

Two observers said the white paper from the State Council, China’s cabinet, could be the first time the authorities had “indirectly” confirmed the scale of the camps.

Titled “Employment and Labour Rights in Xinjiang”, the white paper said the regional government had organised “employment-oriented training on standard spoken and written Chinese, legal knowledge, general know-how for urban life and labour skills” to improve the structure of the workforce and combat poverty.

It had provided vocational training to an average of 1.29 million urban and rural workers every year from 2014 to 2019, the white paper said, apparently not using the Chinese government’s five-year planning period as the reporting time frame.

Of those workers, about 451,400 were from southern Xinjiang – an area it said struggled with extreme poverty, poor access to education and a lack of job skills because residents were influenced by “extremist thoughts”.

That period was also when regional authorities introduced a “systemic de-extremification” campaign to counter terrorism and extreme religious thoughts, according to mainland media reports.
A mainland-based academic who studies Xinjiang issues said it appeared to be the first time Beijing had “indirectly acknowledged” the number of ethnic Muslim minorities receiving “vocational training” under the “de-extremification” programme.

“If you take into account the timing of China’s de-extremification measures that began in 2014, the ‘1.3 million people being trained per year from 2014 to 2019’ is very close to the number [in the camps] estimated by Western critics,” said the academic, who declined to be named because of the sensitivity of the matter.

“But China does not see these training facilities as internment camps, and what it is really trying to highlight [through the white paper] – to counter Western criticism – is that the ‘vocational training’ they provide is actually a social service to improve people’s livelihoods and alleviate poverty.”

Shih Chien-yu, a lecturer on Central Asian relations at Taiwan’s National Tsing Hua University, also said the white paper had given a number for the first time on the re-education programme in Xinjiang.

He added that it was likely Beijing’s response to the Uygur Forced Labour Prevention Act that is going through the US Congress.

The bill, co-sponsored by Republican Senator Marco Rubio and Democratic Representative James McGovern, calls for an import ban on goods produced in Xinjiang unless it can be proven that the products were not made by convict, forced or indentured labour.

It follows the Uygur Human Rights Policy Act that was passed three months ago, as well as recent sanctions imposed on entities and Communist Party officials alleged to be involved in repression in Xinjiang.

“I think the tone of this white paper is really weak. It’s basically trying to explain to the US that ‘I didn’t do anything, there’s been some misunderstanding’,” Shih said.

“But it doesn’t address the important points – there have been anti-Muslim issues. The over 1 million people estimated to have been sent for political re-education cannot be explained away by ‘labour’ and ‘employment’,” he said.

The white paper also did not give a definition of “vocational training” or say how the numbers were calculated, nor did it respond to claims that people had been subjected to forced labour, Shih said.
Source

The evidence continues to build and mount, as many of the most significant pieces like this white paper come directly from the Chinese government's various figures. This, for instance, is the first official recognition by China of the sheer scale of detention - a point of contention with denialists who argue that the size is nowhere near as large as critics allege, and one which can now no longer be denied. The process of mass Sinicization that these camps are used to facilitate is nothing less than cultural genocide given the special and selective targeting of culturally and religious significant locations, persons, and practices alongside the forced seizure of large numbers of Uyghur children.

I haven't had a chance to fully go over the White Paper yet, but a certain line in it leaped out on my skim:
the average annual relocation of surplus rural labor was more than 2.76 million people, of whom nearly 1.68 million, or over 60 percent, were in southern Xinjiang.
(White Paper)

These relocated 'surplus labourers' are largely offered for manufacturing and primary industry work at low rates under 'semi-militarized' work and living conditions. They consist, from what I've gathered, primarily of men between the ages of 18 and 30, who are effectively auctioned off as labourers under a job-bidding system and then kept under the aforementioned conditions. The mass separation of a people by gender can facilitate outright (non-cultural, i.e., internationally criminalized) genocide through interfering with reproduction and this practice accordingly merits the highest level of scrutiny.
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Re: China releases white paper on Uyghur camps; estimates several million Uyghurs subject to them

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Not sure why this double posted. Whoops!
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Re: China releases white paper on Uyghur camps; estimates several million Uyghurs subject to them

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.... You kinda are aware that Chinese bosses have no qualms in relocating workers across the entire country and etc right? The whole migrant worker is a thing and they're treated as the underclass of workers....

American Factory adequately shows this kinda culture in effect.

Also.... The White Paper doesn't say anything about concentration or reeducation camps. The camps are undoubtedly part of China campaign but the paper actually said vocational facillities and etc. Which are the schools and universities that China set up for technical training....

So..... How does this paper confirm anything again???

China isn't some incompetent fool that will just wave about and say I imprisoned 1 million people. The paper is just applauding China success at reducing unemployment in Xinjiang.... It contains no details about their internment or justification.
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Re: China releases white paper on Uyghur camps; estimates several million Uyghurs subject to them

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PainRack wrote: 2020-09-18 01:09pm .... You kinda are aware that Chinese bosses have no qualms in relocating workers across the entire country and etc right? The whole migrant worker is a thing and they're treated as the underclass of workers....

American Factory adequately shows this kinda culture in effect.

Also.... The White Paper doesn't say anything about concentration or reeducation camps. The camps are undoubtedly part of China campaign but the paper actually said vocational facillities and etc. Which are the schools and universities that China set up for technical training....

So..... How does this paper confirm anything again???

China isn't some incompetent fool that will just wave about and say I imprisoned 1 million people. The paper is just applauding China success at reducing unemployment in Xinjiang.... It contains no details about their internment or justification.
I think the working assumption is that everyone at the vocational centers followed by shipping off to a factory is an unwilling participant who would much rather be home herding sheep and attending Friday prayers.
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Re: China releases white paper on Uyghur camps; estimates several million Uyghurs subject to them

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madd0ct0r wrote: 2020-09-18 02:21pm
PainRack wrote: 2020-09-18 01:09pm .... You kinda are aware that Chinese bosses have no qualms in relocating workers across the entire country and etc right? The whole migrant worker is a thing and they're treated as the underclass of workers....

American Factory adequately shows this kinda culture in effect.

Also.... The White Paper doesn't say anything about concentration or reeducation camps. The camps are undoubtedly part of China campaign but the paper actually said vocational facillities and etc. Which are the schools and universities that China set up for technical training....

So..... How does this paper confirm anything again???

China isn't some incompetent fool that will just wave about and say I imprisoned 1 million people. The paper is just applauding China success at reducing unemployment in Xinjiang.... It contains no details about their internment or justification.
I think the working assumption is that everyone at the vocational centers followed by shipping off to a factory is an unwilling participant who would much rather be home herding sheep and attending Friday prayers.
I noticed that Aidan Zenz interpretation. Which is bollocks as usual

He's the Christian fundamentalist who thinks homosexuals will bring about the End times and is on a Crusade. More importantly, he's the guy going well birth rates in Xinjiang dropped, so, massive genocide is occuring when the Uyghur population is still increasing in his own graph, and he then distorts the X axis by using per 100,000 to suggest that the Han population had a massive drop in contraceptive use when the actual percentage is very low.

Note: this isn't to say that forced sterilization hasn't occurred, but China has been doing that since the one child policy. The implementation of the police state made enforcing said policy easier but Zenz figures vis the Han populace are absurd. You didn't need to distort the numbers to say forced sterilization and abuses is ongoing in Xinjiang.

It's the same as the 1 million, which was Zenz going the Chinese built new facilities, so, based on that, 1 million Uyghurs are being detained.

The "abduction" of Uyghur children was actually Zenz going well, the Chinese built more boarding schools in Xinjiang, so, these indicate the capacity needed has increased and thus more children are being abducted.

The reality is actually even more heartbreakingly sad. China attitude towards the Uyghurs is racist, treating everyone as a potential radical Muslim extremist. The implementation of the police state and detention without trial, seizures of people on trumped up POSSIBILITY of being a radical is not just precrime, it's pre thought crime at it's very worst. Such large scale imprisonment breaks up families and thus causes the foster system to take over kids whose parents are in jail.

Sounds familiar ? Yeah.... The story doesn't need exaggeration to highlight China cruelty.

The problem is that by pretending it's just Xi cartoon villany, it portrays the solution as a very simple STOP the bad guy when it's a whole system of racism and counter-insurgency with huge collateral damage.
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Re: China releases white paper on Uyghur camps; estimates several million Uyghurs subject to them

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But who cares about complex issues and complex narratives when you can lump things into good guys vs bad guys? This is why the West as a whole is shit at actually dealing with human rights issues.
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Re: China releases white paper on Uyghur camps; estimates several million Uyghurs subject to them

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PainRack wrote: 2020-09-18 01:09pm .... You kinda are aware that Chinese bosses have no qualms in relocating workers across the entire country and etc right? The whole migrant worker is a thing and they're treated as the underclass of workers....

American Factory adequately shows this kinda culture in effect.
And?
Also.... The White Paper doesn't say anything about concentration or reeducation camps. The camps are undoubtedly part of China campaign but the paper actually said vocational facillities and etc. Which are the schools and universities that China set up for technical training....

So..... How does this paper confirm anything again???
This paper confirms the scale of the vocational system in Xinjiang, which has previously been difficult to do, and it does so in a way that fits with prior estimates that were ridiculed by denialists. You know - as I said in my post?
China isn't some incompetent fool that will just wave about and say I imprisoned 1 million people. The paper is just applauding China success at reducing unemployment in Xinjiang.... It contains no details about their internment or justification.
Of course, no one can look at a piece of evidence produced by an entity in the broader context of other evidence to verify some of that evidence. That'd just be utter nonsense, even if it doesn't require an imaginary idea that this white paper is just openly saying 'we did it, we'll do it again, come invade us', because all items of evidence stand entirely alone and cannot be understood by reference to one another or clarified by one another.
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Re: China releases white paper on Uyghur camps; estimates several million Uyghurs subject to them

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loomer wrote: 2020-09-18 07:08pm
PainRack wrote: 2020-09-18 01:09pm .... You kinda are aware that Chinese bosses have no qualms in relocating workers across the entire country and etc right? The whole migrant worker is a thing and they're treated as the underclass of workers....

American Factory adequately shows this kinda culture in effect.
And?
Also.... The White Paper doesn't say anything about concentration or reeducation camps. The camps are undoubtedly part of China campaign but the paper actually said vocational facillities and etc. Which are the schools and universities that China set up for technical training....

So..... How does this paper confirm anything again???
This paper confirms the scale of the vocational system in Xinjiang, which has previously been difficult to do, and it does so in a way that fits with prior estimates that were ridiculed by denialists. You know - as I said in my post?
China isn't some incompetent fool that will just wave about and say I imprisoned 1 million people. The paper is just applauding China success at reducing unemployment in Xinjiang.... It contains no details about their internment or justification.
Of course, no one can look at a piece of evidence produced by an entity in the broader context of other evidence to verify some of that evidence. That'd just be utter nonsense, even if it doesn't require an imaginary idea that this white paper is just openly saying 'we did it, we'll do it again, come invade us', because all items of evidence stand entirely alone and cannot be understood by reference to one another or clarified by one another.
Errr.

Your basic claim is
This, for instance, is the first official recognition by China of the sheer scale of detention - a point of contention with denialists who argue that the size is nowhere near as large as critics allege, and one which can now no longer be denied.
Just how does this paper show the sheer scale of detention?

ray245 wrote: 2020-09-18 03:56pm But who cares about complex issues and complex narratives when you can lump things into good guys vs bad guys? This is why the West as a whole is shit at actually dealing with human rights issues.
There's nothing to be complex about. You can just simply say like John Oliver did that China went overboard, acting like the Patriot Act on steroids and is racist against Uyghurs.

It's really that simple.

The problem in not doing that is because Zenz sponsors are the same rightwing idiots that went into Iraq, so, they're not going to go hey, remember what we did there?

There should be no reason for any liberal to have the same problem.
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Re: China releases white paper on Uyghur camps; estimates several million Uyghurs subject to them

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PainRack wrote: 2020-09-19 05:11am There's nothing to be complex about. You can just simply say like John Oliver did that China went overboard, acting like the Patriot Act on steroids and is racist against Uyghurs.

It's really that simple.

The problem in not doing that is because Zenz sponsors are the same rightwing idiots that went into Iraq, so, they're not going to go hey, remember what we did there?

There should be no reason for any liberal to have the same problem.
I'm talking about people ignoring the underlying systemic issue that caused the problem, as opposed to focusing it entirely on the top leaderships of the CCP.
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Re: China releases white paper on Uyghur camps; estimates several million Uyghurs subject to them

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PainRack wrote: 2020-09-19 05:11am
loomer wrote: 2020-09-18 07:08pm
PainRack wrote: 2020-09-18 01:09pm .... You kinda are aware that Chinese bosses have no qualms in relocating workers across the entire country and etc right? The whole migrant worker is a thing and they're treated as the underclass of workers....

American Factory adequately shows this kinda culture in effect.
And?
Also.... The White Paper doesn't say anything about concentration or reeducation camps. The camps are undoubtedly part of China campaign but the paper actually said vocational facillities and etc. Which are the schools and universities that China set up for technical training....

So..... How does this paper confirm anything again???
This paper confirms the scale of the vocational system in Xinjiang, which has previously been difficult to do, and it does so in a way that fits with prior estimates that were ridiculed by denialists. You know - as I said in my post?
China isn't some incompetent fool that will just wave about and say I imprisoned 1 million people. The paper is just applauding China success at reducing unemployment in Xinjiang.... It contains no details about their internment or justification.
Of course, no one can look at a piece of evidence produced by an entity in the broader context of other evidence to verify some of that evidence. That'd just be utter nonsense, even if it doesn't require an imaginary idea that this white paper is just openly saying 'we did it, we'll do it again, come invade us', because all items of evidence stand entirely alone and cannot be understood by reference to one another or clarified by one another.
Errr.

Your basic claim is
This, for instance, is the first official recognition by China of the sheer scale of detention - a point of contention with denialists who argue that the size is nowhere near as large as critics allege, and one which can now no longer be denied.
Just how does this paper show the sheer scale of detention?
My basic claim is that this provides a reference for scale with the detention system, yes, because the detention system and the vocational camps are intimately intertwined with substantial overlap - unless you'd care to provide evidence that there is no such relationship? I'm very curious to see how you'll manage that, since it flies in the face of now well-established and well-documented facts. And, since I'm sure you'll try it, you'll need to do more than go 'Zenz is wrong' since Zenz is not the only source on this, nor one that I find particularly persuasive due to methodological problems in his work.

But please, do enlighten us all about how there's no relationship between the vocational system - which China repeatedly denied was operating on anything close to this scale - and the detention system, since it's that relationship that enables us to look at figures for the vocational element to confirm the scope of repression suggested by other evidence.
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Re: China releases white paper on Uyghur camps; estimates several million Uyghurs subject to them

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loomer wrote: 2020-09-19 05:37am
PainRack wrote: 2020-09-19 05:11am
loomer wrote: 2020-09-18 07:08pm

And?



This paper confirms the scale of the vocational system in Xinjiang, which has previously been difficult to do, and it does so in a way that fits with prior estimates that were ridiculed by denialists. You know - as I said in my post?



Of course, no one can look at a piece of evidence produced by an entity in the broader context of other evidence to verify some of that evidence. That'd just be utter nonsense, even if it doesn't require an imaginary idea that this white paper is just openly saying 'we did it, we'll do it again, come invade us', because all items of evidence stand entirely alone and cannot be understood by reference to one another or clarified by one another.
Errr.

Your basic claim is
This, for instance, is the first official recognition by China of the sheer scale of detention - a point of contention with denialists who argue that the size is nowhere near as large as critics allege, and one which can now no longer be denied.
Just how does this paper show the sheer scale of detention?
My basic claim is that this provides a reference for scale with the detention system, yes, because the detention system and the vocational camps are intimately intertwined with substantial overlap - unless you'd care to provide evidence that there is no such relationship? I'm very curious to see how you'll manage that, since it flies in the face of now well-established and well-documented facts. And, since I'm sure you'll try it, you'll need to do more than go 'Zenz is wrong' since Zenz is not the only source on this, nor one that I find particularly persuasive due to methodological problems in his work.

But please, do enlighten us all about how there's no relationship between the vocational system - which China repeatedly denied was operating on anything close to this scale - and the detention system, since it's that relationship that enables us to look at figures for the vocational element to confirm the scope of repression suggested by other evidence.
So ... In other words, this paper actually provides no evidence of what you claimed?


Because the numbers within for vocational training include University graduation and job placement And includes the Han Chinese.
The quality of the workforce has improved significantly. Thanks to the government's education projects, enrollments in preschool education, nine-year compulsory education, senior high school education, higher education and vocational education in Xinjiang have all reached the highest level in history. In 2019, there were 453,800 full-time students studying at universities and colleges (an increase of 146,200 over 2014), and 1.84 million students studying at secondary schools (an increase of 147,600 over 2014). Through vocational training, Xinjiang has built a large knowledge-based, skilled and innovative workforce that meets the requirements of the new era. Every year from 2014 to 2019 Xinjiang provided training sessions to an average of 1.29 million urban and rural workers, of which 451,400 were in southern Xinjiang. The trainees mastered at least one skill with employment potential, and the vast majority of them obtained vocational qualifications, skill level certificates, or specialized skill certificates, allowing them to go on to find stable employment.
Note. The problem here is essentially you made the claim that this paper supports 1 million detention when it doesn't say that. At all.

China would had to be literal nincompoops to publicly say that. While Trump and co has lowered the standards for government villians , let's not infantilize China and pretend they stupid enough to actually say they detained 1 million people publicly.


As for vocational training, you kidding me right? Xi has outright said that China is improving the lives of Uyghurs via such vocational training for years now. It's been publicised in globaltimes as a huge investment by China to bring prosperity and reduce extremists in Xinjiang.

We KNOW that said reeducation camps exist and is on a large scale, but you can't say
A: China has hid the scale of vocational training when they haven't done so.

B: use numbers for vocational training and say this proves 1 million Uyghur detained. Which BTW IS Aidan Zenz explicit claim here again.

There's no denying that China hid the abuses under the larger scale vocational training but face it , you made claims in the OP that simply is unsubstantiated by the white paper.
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Re: China releases white paper on Uyghur camps; estimates several million Uyghurs subject to them

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Just as a reminder.

https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1167074.shtml

Here is China openly talking about the scale of said vocational training going on in Xinjiang. I'm not sure how you
But please, do enlighten us all about how there's no relationship between the vocational system - which China repeatedly denied was operating on anything close to this scale - and the detention system, since it's that relationship that enables us to look at figures for the vocational element to confirm the scope of repression suggested by other evidence
You can link this secret information is now published (but actually has been for years ) to the actual secret information on how many detainees are in the camps but if you have it, I won't mind seeing the chain of logic and evidence.
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Re: China releases white paper on Uyghur camps; estimates several million Uyghurs subject to them

Post by loomer »

PainRack wrote: 2020-09-19 08:11am
loomer wrote: 2020-09-19 05:37am
PainRack wrote: 2020-09-19 05:11am
Errr.

Your basic claim is


Just how does this paper show the sheer scale of detention?
My basic claim is that this provides a reference for scale with the detention system, yes, because the detention system and the vocational camps are intimately intertwined with substantial overlap - unless you'd care to provide evidence that there is no such relationship? I'm very curious to see how you'll manage that, since it flies in the face of now well-established and well-documented facts. And, since I'm sure you'll try it, you'll need to do more than go 'Zenz is wrong' since Zenz is not the only source on this, nor one that I find particularly persuasive due to methodological problems in his work.

But please, do enlighten us all about how there's no relationship between the vocational system - which China repeatedly denied was operating on anything close to this scale - and the detention system, since it's that relationship that enables us to look at figures for the vocational element to confirm the scope of repression suggested by other evidence.
So ... In other words, this paper actually provides no evidence of what you claimed?


Because the numbers within for vocational training include University graduation and job placement And includes the Han Chinese.
The quality of the workforce has improved significantly. Thanks to the government's education projects, enrollments in preschool education, nine-year compulsory education, senior high school education, higher education and vocational education in Xinjiang have all reached the highest level in history. In 2019, there were 453,800 full-time students studying at universities and colleges (an increase of 146,200 over 2014), and 1.84 million students studying at secondary schools (an increase of 147,600 over 2014). Through vocational training, Xinjiang has built a large knowledge-based, skilled and innovative workforce that meets the requirements of the new era. Every year from 2014 to 2019 Xinjiang provided training sessions to an average of 1.29 million urban and rural workers, of which 451,400 were in southern Xinjiang. The trainees mastered at least one skill with employment potential, and the vast majority of them obtained vocational qualifications, skill level certificates, or specialized skill certificates, allowing them to go on to find stable employment.
Note. The problem here is essentially you made the claim that this paper supports 1 million detention when it doesn't say that. At all.
You've made a mistake here. The paper distinguishes between the vocational skill centres and high schools and universities, and while you are correct that it includes Han Chinese (and the Hui and so on), the largest areas of vocational skill involvement is in Southern Xinjiang, where the population demographics are heavily Uyghur. This supports the claim that several million Uyghurs have been subject to this process, because even if we were to assume that only 40% of the total - you know, a near perfect representative slice - it still comes out to some 2.5 million Uyghurs. Because the actual demographic skew is focused on the South and rural areas, which skew more heavily Uyghur, we know this is a lowball.

The evidence that these vocational facilities overlap with the detention camps is, of course, not part of this white paper, because as you say,
China would had to be literal nincompoops to publicly say that. While Trump and co has lowered the standards for government villians , let's not infantilize China and pretend they stupid enough to actually say they detained 1 million people publicly.
Naturally, they wouldn't admit that in this document. But they now, with mounting international pressure, need to account for the evidence for the rapid expansion of the camp system and prepare the ground for inspection, which means laying down a plausibly acceptable framework for why a system of that scale exists. This paper, which is part of that framework, still sheds light on the overall scale of detention when viewed in conjunction with the other evidence.
As for vocational training, you kidding me right? Xi has outright said that China is improving the lives of Uyghurs via such vocational training for years now. It's been publicised in globaltimes as a huge investment by China to bring prosperity and reduce extremists in Xinjiang.
Yes, and? I have at no point stated that China has denied that the vocational training system exists, only that it previously publicly denied the alleged scale of that system and that denialists have likewise done so.
We KNOW that said reeducation camps exist and is on a large scale, but you can't say
A: China has hid the scale of vocational training when they haven't done so.
Of course, they would never lowball the figure, right?
B: use numbers for vocational training and say this proves 1 million Uyghur detained. Which BTW IS Aidan Zenz explicit claim here again.
Please show me where I have stated that this white paper, alone, functions as proof that China has detained a million Uyghurs rather than contributing evidence towards the scale of the detainment camps. You may also like to provide evidence that the vocational system is entirely distinct from the detention system.
There's no denying that China hid the abuses under the larger scale vocational training but face it , you made claims in the OP that simply is unsubstantiated by the white paper.
Here are the claims I made in the OP, since you seem confused. I'll even throw in which ones I assert the white paper appears to support:

1. The evidence is mounting for the scale of abuses in Xinjiang and for the scale of the vocational system. The white paper would certainly seem to support this by giving us a concrete figure in the millions that China will admit to, whether we view that as a low end or a high end, as having been involved in the vocational education program - a program that, even viewed charitably, has been rife with abusive conditions.
2. That this is also evidence for the scope of detention. This combines the above claim with a claim that I do not assert the white paper supports, which is that the vocational system is linked to the internment system, but which I am satisfied exists in light of other evidence, but which it has been difficult to obtain supporting evidence for how many people have been in place without relying on, say, Adrian Zenz.
2(a). Denialists consistently argue that the scale of detention and internment (and even vocational centres) is far lower than alleged. This is not touched on by the white paper and I make no assertion to the contrary, because the entire point of the white paper is to explain and justify the scale of the vocational system.
3. Mass Sinicization is cultural genocide and the vocational training camps are a component of this. The white paper only briefly touches on this issue, principally in the form of active denials that I do not find credible.
4. The relocation of surplus labour from Southern Xinjiang is especially troubling in light of other evidence involving labour auctions and forced labour conditions imposed upon Uyghur detainees and graduates of the vocational system. The white paper provides numbers, while the conditions are not touched upon.
5. The deliberate seperation of a protected group's members from each other on the basis of sex, gender, age or marital status in such a way that it impedes their ability to reproduce can be an act constitutive of genocide, and any such practice - as is occurring in Xinjiang - merits high scrutiny due to this danger. I do not assert that the white paper supports this except insofar as, per #4, the white paper provides some numbers that were previously lacking.

Does that clear this up for you? Because your current tack seems to be to allege that I maintain that the White Paper proves #2 in and of itself, rather than - as I state in 1, in the very first line of my post - viewing the White Paper as more evidence for #2 due to the close relationships between the internment system and the vocational system, which is contained in other sources.
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Re: China releases white paper on Uyghur camps; estimates several million Uyghurs subject to them

Post by PainRack »

loomer wrote: 2020-09-19 08:54am
You've made a mistake here. The paper distinguishes between the vocational skill centres and high schools and universities, and while you are correct that it includes Han Chinese (and the Hui and so on), the largest areas of vocational skill involvement is in Southern Xinjiang, where the population demographics are heavily Uyghur. This supports the claim that several million Uyghurs have been subject to this process, because even if we were to assume that only 40% of the total - you know, a near perfect representative slice - it still comes out to some 2.5 million Uyghurs. Because the actual demographic skew is focused on the South and rural areas, which skew more heavily Uyghur, we know this is a lowball.
Are we reading the same paper ?

The problem you seem to be ignoring is that vocational training centers are only part of vocational training sessions.

One is detention in a reeducation camp aimed at removing extremism and moulding the Uyghurs into compliant Chinese citizens. The other is mandatory classes intended to reinforce language skills and make people employable.

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-0 ... 313359.htm

This is the crime against humanity.


http://www.bjreview.com/Nation/202006/t ... 10272.html
This isn't, but evidence is mounting that racism and the execution of the program, combined with detention of parents breaking up family units, so there are abuses and consequences. Which speaks more about China worker rights and the liumin community conditions....

That 1 million yearly figure includes BOTH types of training in it's figures. Furthermore, your argument is that several millions of Uyghurs has moved through the reeducation camps as supported by this paper but the actual numbers is obsfucated by the inclusion of both Han and Hui in the training sessions.

It's why I been pointing out repeatedly that China simply isn't stupid enough to say this is how many people I have imprisoned.

[
Yes, and? I have at no point stated that China has denied that the vocational training system exists, only that it previously publicly denied the alleged scale of that system and that denialists have likewise done so.
Since when? China has publicly been claiming said vocational training is part of its anti extremist policy since 2015/2016.

Look. I not psychic
which China repeatedly denied was operating on anything close to this scale -
I think the main fundamental issue here is that you combined the reeducation camps, aka Vocational Training Centres with the Vocational Training Sessions and that misunderstanding is what preventing our communication here

Because China has never denied the scale of its vocational training in totality. What it denied is the scale of detention, both in prisons and in the reeducation camps.


And the White Paper to me is clearly China trying to obsfucate the issue by insisting that the reeducation camps are part of vocational training and using the numbers of employment and etc to hide the detention figures.
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Re: China releases white paper on Uyghur camps; estimates several million Uyghurs subject to them

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Reading through the white paper now.

Thoughts.
1) there's the standard playbook for regional industrialisation and urbanisation - comparable to other regions (and also Africa)
2) standard playbook for connected identity building - one China stuff, comparable to other regions
3) specific economic marginalisation of sub groups viewed as a threat to 1+2

I was hopeful the white e paper would have more gender data, since if you are rounding up the men it would show up.

Only bit I found was "In ensuring women's rights, Xinjiang strives to remove barriers to employment and formulates policies to support women in starting their own businesses. In 2019, 480,900 new jobs were created in cities and towns; 228,100 of these were for women, accounting for 47 percent of the total. "

It's possible to read into this as women starting business at home means the working in distant factory groups are predominantly men. It is something compatible with 1) and 3).
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Re: China releases white paper on Uyghur camps; estimates several million Uyghurs subject to them

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madd0ct0r wrote: 2020-09-20 09:18am Reading through the white paper now.

Thoughts.
1) there's the standard playbook for regional industrialisation and urbanisation - comparable to other regions (and also Africa)
2) standard playbook for connected identity building - one China stuff, comparable to other regions
3) specific economic marginalisation of sub groups viewed as a threat to 1+2

I was hopeful the white e paper would have more gender data, since if you are rounding up the men it would show up.

Only bit I found was "In ensuring women's rights, Xinjiang strives to remove barriers to employment and formulates policies to support women in starting their own businesses. In 2019, 480,900 new jobs were created in cities and towns; 228,100 of these were for women, accounting for 47 percent of the total. "

It's possible to read into this as women starting business at home means the working in distant factory groups are predominantly men. It is something compatible with 1) and 3).
That won't be useful because bosses actually prefer female factory workers because lower pay.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/16/worl ... s.amp.html

https://amp.theguardian.com/global-deve ... oups-china

The Guardian and NYT which raised the investigation of forced labor used pictures of women from the China news daily which highlighted factory workers in Xinjiang.
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Re: China releases white paper on Uyghur camps; estimates several million Uyghurs subject to them

Post by loomer »

PainRack wrote: 2020-09-19 11:06am
loomer wrote: 2020-09-19 08:54am
You've made a mistake here. The paper distinguishes between the vocational skill centres and high schools and universities, and while you are correct that it includes Han Chinese (and the Hui and so on), the largest areas of vocational skill involvement is in Southern Xinjiang, where the population demographics are heavily Uyghur. This supports the claim that several million Uyghurs have been subject to this process, because even if we were to assume that only 40% of the total - you know, a near perfect representative slice - it still comes out to some 2.5 million Uyghurs. Because the actual demographic skew is focused on the South and rural areas, which skew more heavily Uyghur, we know this is a lowball.
Are we reading the same paper ?

The problem you seem to be ignoring is that vocational training centers are only part of vocational training sessions.

One is detention in a reeducation camp aimed at removing extremism and moulding the Uyghurs into compliant Chinese citizens. The other is mandatory classes intended to reinforce language skills and make people employable.

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-0 ... 313359.htm

This is the crime against humanity.


http://www.bjreview.com/Nation/202006/t ... 10272.html
This isn't, but evidence is mounting that racism and the execution of the program, combined with detention of parents breaking up family units, so there are abuses and consequences. Which speaks more about China worker rights and the liumin community conditions....

That 1 million yearly figure includes BOTH types of training in it's figures. Furthermore, your argument is that several millions of Uyghurs has moved through the reeducation camps as supported by this paper but the actual numbers is obsfucated by the inclusion of both Han and Hui in the training sessions.

It's why I been pointing out repeatedly that China simply isn't stupid enough to say this is how many people I have imprisoned.

[
Yes, and? I have at no point stated that China has denied that the vocational training system exists, only that it previously publicly denied the alleged scale of that system and that denialists have likewise done so.
Since when? China has publicly been claiming said vocational training is part of its anti extremist policy since 2015/2016.

Look. I not psychic
which China repeatedly denied was operating on anything close to this scale -
I think the main fundamental issue here is that you combined the reeducation camps, aka Vocational Training Centres with the Vocational Training Sessions and that misunderstanding is what preventing our communication here

Because China has never denied the scale of its vocational training in totality. What it denied is the scale of detention, both in prisons and in the reeducation camps.


And the White Paper to me is clearly China trying to obsfucate the issue by insisting that the reeducation camps are part of vocational training and using the numbers of employment and etc to hide the detention figures.
Sorry for the delay in response, had some unexpected work come up - and, with it having put a break in and allowed me to revisit the white paper with fresh eyes, I can see you are correct. I still think it may prove to be a helpful piece of data later but had managed to let the headline add a subtext that isn't present in the paper proper. Mea culpa.
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Re: China releases white paper on Uyghur camps; estimates several million Uyghurs subject to them

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loomer wrote: 2020-09-21 02:46am
Sorry for the delay in response, had some unexpected work come up - and, with it having put a break in and allowed me to revisit the white paper with fresh eyes, I can see you are correct. I still think it may prove to be a helpful piece of data later but had managed to let the headline add a subtext that isn't present in the paper proper. Mea culpa.
Note that this is precisely why Aiden Zenz does more harm than good.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... ends-camps
Figures included in the report hinted at the scope of the program. It said an average of 1.29 million workers, including 415,400 from southern Xinjiang, had gone through “vocational training” ever year between 2014 and 2019, although it didn’t clarify if – or how many times – people had gone through the camps.

Adrian Zenz and author focusing on Xinjiang, said the number instead “gives us a possible scope of coercive labor through the centralized, militarized training of rural surplus laborers”.
I'm not surprised he's the one who highlighted and then distorted this report again.

He does way more harm than good via these distortions.


One should note that China also distributed new statistics that rebutted Zenz genocide claims, such as IUD huge usuage and the growth in the Uyghur population.


By fabricating said crime, Zenz successfully obscured the forced sterilization of women in detention that has been made.
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Re: China releases white paper on Uyghur camps; estimates several million Uyghurs subject to them

Post by PainRack »

So...



A few days ago, Xinjiang released new statistics in a 6 page rebuttal to CNN Adrian Zenz Jamestown report.



There's also a dedicated propaganda push critiquing lots of stuff but I'm not really that interested in debating that.



I'm more interested in CNN.



https://edition.cnn.com/2020/09/21/asia ... index.html





You note that CNN actually didn't contain any links or information from the 6 page rebuttal.



The Xinjiang rebuttal essentially drew from this source.



https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politic ... rilisation



So, first, the Xinjiang points out that Zenz got the birthrates wrong. Not a biggie, again, Census wasn't out , as I mentioned earlier, Zenz used medical statistics which covers hospital births and etcetc.



The MOST important thing remains though.


Lin went on to dispute a conclusion that 80 per cent of IUD operations in China in 2018 were performed in Xinjiang, saying the proportion should be 8.7 per cent, based on official data.
CNN uncritically reposted Zenz claims, and used the Jamestown chart.



Here's the major problem.



Uyghur is a minority in China. The majority of China 1.3 billion people outweighs Xinjiang 21 million people. There is no way a 243 per 100k in Xinjiang vs 10 per 100k China can reach 80% of all IUD placement in the whole of China



The math simply doesn't work. There's no need for access to any restricted or public data other than googling population of Xinjiang and China. It. Doesn't. Work.



CNN utter failure here is damning.





In context, what happens here is actually much more simple. The Chinese government prefers IUD, but the controversy over steel that it used vs current copper caused IUD to decline in favour of condoms.



https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1070279.shtml



There's several interpretations depending on which survey you use but ultimately, the majority of Chinese women now prefer condom use vs the 2000 40% of Chinese women used IUD.



NOW. The one child policy heavily penalized and used forced abortions as enforcement.

https://www.intechopen.com/books/induce ... -in-china-



But for the younger generation , that disparity is simply 4% of women stopped using contraceptives and younger generation like condoms.



The violations and abuse as mentioned is a result of China police state mandating forced sterilization. Not a genocidal policy.
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