Star Trek: Discovery, Season 3 (Spoilers)

[bilateralrope]

I see the Trill are sticking to their lie that compatible hosts are rare.

[Crazedwraith]

I see the Trill are sticking to their lie that compatible hosts are rare.

I got the impression that's actually supposed to be true in this time period but it is an odd point.

[bilateralrope]

I'm not sure how it could become true. Back in DS9, the truth is that nearly half the Trill population are viable hosts.

But consider that Discovery was unknown class of ship claiming to be from the Federation. The Trill had no way to know if they really were a Federation ship, no way to know how the Federation had changed and no way of knowing if there were any telepaths coming to the surface. So I'd be surprised if any of the Trill we saw knew the truth.

[FireNexus]

I'm not sure how it could become true. Back in DS9, the truth is that nearly half the Trill population are viable hosts.

But consider that Discovery was unknown class of ship claiming to be from the Federation. The Trill had no way to know if they really were a Federation ship, no way to know how the Federation had changed and no way of knowing if there were any telepaths coming to the surface. So I'd be surprised if any of the Trill we saw knew the truth.

I think the Trill basically suppressed the knowledge that lots of trill are viable hosts so far they forgot it. And so forgot it that they were actually letting symbiotes go hostless instead of lowering standards.

[FireNexus]

I just realized the burn is stupid because Romulan warp drives require no dilithium. Dilithium-mediated antimatter annihilation is how they generate warp plasma. But any process which gives a sufficient quantity of energy (like using an artificial singularity to harvest its Hawking radiation) will give you the requisite plasma.

This is going to annoy me.

[Khaat]

Maybe this is the lame attempt to justify the Romulans actually being a threat (for a time) to the Federation - Romulans still have functioning warp drives, no one else does. Or maybe the Burn is why the Romulans have singularities instead?

No one says it can't be both stupid AND canon.

[FireNexus]

Maybe this is the lame attempt to justify the Romulans actually being a threat (for a time) to the Federation - Romulans still have functioning warp drives, no one else does. Or maybe the Burn is why the Romulans have singularities instead?

No one says it can't be both stupid AND canon.

The burn post dates Romulans using singularities by like 800 years. Maybe the possibility of something akin to the Burn is why they stubbornly cling to that (apparently inferior) technology. They’d have to have kept the possibility secret even post-nova if nobody else could figure out what happened.

[Crazedwraith]

Episode 5 mentions... the Uss Voyager-J. (Ugh) and a ship that's entirely made of holograms and forcefields. This is steering dangerously close to fanwank.

[Eternal_Freedom]

An interesting, if not massively spectacular episode.

Time for some wild speculation. Given the comments during Georgiou's debriefing about "no crossings with the Mirror Universe since 25th century" I suspect the Terrans and/or some other Mirror Universe faction were involved with The Burn.

Also, anyone else getting an nBSG vibe with this "same music everyone knows" bit that Michael brings up to that 32nd-century officer?

As for the Voyager-J...well, as dumb as most Voyager plots are, the idea of a single small ship surviving seven years in hostile territory half a galaxy away and making it home would be a good legend to build on. Plus after 800-odd years they're probably running out of names so wind up recycling them. I wonder what letter Enterprise they're on - given the rate they seem to get totalled and rebuilt, maybe they've actually reached the Enterprise-NX again .

And you could always go with Chuck's Evil Janeway theory and say she re-wrote a lot of the official history after the fact, combine that with eight centuries of time passing and the details are probably lost.

[Crazedwraith]

From a serious review perspective, the episode was fine. they continue the streak of mostly being able to talk through things and everyone behave reasonably. Even the dick Admiral is not entirely a dick etc.

It's struggling a lot to find a balance between the on going plot (restore the federation) and the episode plot (rescue the ship, dilemma with barzan guy) and it's veering towards the former, which makes the later feel perfunctory.

As for the V-J thing. It's the first time since Enterprise itself we've ever seen that which makes it feel a little fanficcy and wanky. And I'd feel that about any ship that got the appellation but it's a tiny gripe. They recycle names a lot but registries only very infrequently.

other triva: Did anyone else get a bajoran milita vibe from the modern Starfleet's uniform?

[tezunegari]

Did anyone else notice the USS NOG?

[FireNexus]

Some of the ships are fully constructed of forcefields. Does that mean the Federation is on its way to becoming The Culture.

[Khaat]

Some of the ships are fully constructed of forcefields. Does that mean the Federation is on its way to becoming The Culture.

Or Red Dwarf's Holoship, Enlightenment.

Lister: "Lister to Red Dwarf, we have in our midst a complete smegpot. Brains in the anal region. Chin, absent presumed missing. Genitalia, small and inoffensive. Of no value or interest whatsoever."
Binks: "Binks to Enlightenment. Evidence of primitive humour. The human displays knowledge of satire and imitation. With patient tuition, could perhaps master simple tasks."
Lister: "Lister to Red Dwarf. Displays evidence of spoiling for a rumble. Seems unable to grasp simple threats. With careful pummeling, could be sucking tomorrow's lunch through a straw."
Binks: "Binks to Enlightenment. The human seems to be under the delusion that he is somehow capable of bestowing physical violence to a hologram."
Lister: "Lister to Red Dwarf. The intruder seems blissfully unaware that we have a fairly sturdy holowhip in the Munitions cabinet. And unless he wants his derriere minced like burger meat, he'd better become history in the next two seconds flat."

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

No love for the "Flying rain forest?"
Regarding Romulan singularities hopefully it would be addressed in the episode titled "Unification, Part III", since it seems to be a follow up to the TNG episodes (not to mention that StarTrek.com has put up an article on the Vulcan-Romulan unification movement).

[tezunegari]

Discovery got some upgrades.

new hull aztec-ing
new deflector dish
integrated programmable matter and pre-burn tech
New detached nacelles improving maneuverability
Holes in the pylon area between impulse engines and detached nacelles
bridge consoles received new holographic "learning" interfaces
nano-gel interface for the spore drive

Also, the neck looks now similar to a Galaxy-style cobra-head neck, and what I think to be weapon ports... lots of weapon ports on the rings.

the crew got new com badges for the crew (or rather multitool as they are also tricorders, holo-interface, and personal transporter)

I really enjoyed this episode... and I loved the crew's reaction to their new toys and Admiral Vance's reaction to Burnham's unsanctioned mission.

BUT one thing I found annoying is the reuse of Season 1 assets.
They reused Hiawatha, Buran, Hoover, and Europa as salvage models around and on the planet Book got himself enslaved on... these ships should be beyond rare in the 32nd century!
But there were no other ship types in the salvage field - no TNG era, no PIC era... not even ship models shown to be used by Starfleet which should have at least some pre-burn models.

[Sidewinder]

BUT one thing I found annoying is the reuse of Season 1 assets.
They reused Hiawatha, Buran, Hoover, and Europa as salvage models around and on the planet Book got himself enslaved on... these ships should be beyond rare in the 32nd century!
But there were no other ship types in the salvage field - no TNG era, no PIC era... not even ship models shown to be used by Starfleet which should have at least some pre-burn models.

IIRC, Secret Hideout (Alex Kurtzman's production company) must license the right to use TNG models, which are held by a different company- hence their scarcity.

[Formless]

It could be that 23'rd century ships are just plain built to last. Like, they were paranoid that ships on a five year mission might end up stranded decades away from the Federation, Voyager style, and they wanted the ship to just keep chugging along for generations if they had to to get home. That was the Discovery crew's cover story when they arrived at Earth, after all. There was at least one TOS episode where a hostile alien species from Andromeda were counting on that, too. It was probably a contingency every 23'rd century crew was aware of, especially given Discovery had an experimental FTL drive (but Excelsior also had an experimental transwarp drive, explaining its long service history). And there is the constant presence of Miranda, Excelsior, and occasional Oberth class ships all the way into the 24'th century, decades after they were built. Hell, the Constitution class was in constant service for almost as long as the Excelsior; IIRC Enterprise was 20 to 30 years old when Kirk took command, and up to 60 years old when she was finally decommissioned! That would explain the presence of 23'rd century style shuttlecraft in civilian use in Picard, and the presence of 23'rd century ships in scrapyards for centuries after they went "obsolete"-- they may not stand up to modern tech in the 32'nd century, but they still work, and as Discovery herself shows, they can still be upgraded with the latest and greatest programmable matter tech when necessary.

Meanwhile most 24'th century ships seem to suffer from planned obsolescence, because the furthest into the future that I think we saw any Federation ships from that era was in the 26'th century battle from Enterprise, and what ships did we see? Nova class ships, which were short range science vessels from the latter half of the century, and Promethius class ships, which were warships and thus probably a lot more robust designs than a Galaxy class, which are notorious for being flying malls that break down constantly and catastrophically. The Nova class seems like a pretty conservatively built ship, given it didn't even have a holodeck, which even a fricken California class ship has! And those are for maintaining infrastructure of the Federation, the most workhorse mission imaginable. I'm not counting the Dauntless class ships, since the Dauntless was a fake Starfleet vessel made by an alien, and its likely that Starfleet reverse-engineered it in the 25'th or 26'th century when experimenting with Quantum Slipstream tech and/or programmable matter. But yeah, at this point I think we can safely assume that the 24'th century obsession with experimental technologies, while it allowed for the extremely neat innovations of the 32'nd century like organic, holographic, and neutronium hulled ships and rainforest filled space colonies, made for ships with relatively short service lifetimes, while the utilitarian mindset of the 23'rd century encouraged ship builders to think about the "long now".

[FireNexus]

Self-sealing stem bolts.

[Crazedwraith]

So a random gripe: I dislike the entirely detached nacelle concept. It makes sense that Disco was heavily upgraded though. I wonder how quickly they are going to be trying to replicate spore drive. It would be an interesting scenario if the new Federation has working spore drives and then has no need for Disco. How popular they are at that point will be key.

The Admiral really just likes dissing everyone doesn't? It makes sense there being real consequences but I can't help but feel like Saru's gone with a half measure here. Michael basically has to decide whether she wants to be a Starfleet officer or not at this point. It's a little muddled because the show has always given the main characters extraordinary latitude to act despite what their position should be (see also Ensign Tilly) Oh another random gripe: Number One was a nickname/informal term to refere to the First Officer. First Officer or XO feels like the term they should be usuing in formal discussion with an admiral.

The main plot was good, and integrated better into the main plot than some other, I like it was a scam and then shooty-shooty plot. Rather than talk things out, the previous episode with that solution have been good and star trekky but there are scenarios where asskicking are necessary.

Intriqued and looking forward to knowing what the deal with Georgiou's sudden ptsd is all about, implanted by the interrogator last week perhaps?

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

Aaand they didn't discuss anything about the Romulan singularities in regards of propulsion, so I guess it's a "likely there is dilithium involved" for my headcanon.

While it was good to see the future-future Ni'var (previously known as Vulcan) and some glimpse of the unification, it was again a long Michael arc involving a lot of character debating (surprise surprise her mom showed up), and they didn't even get to beam down to the planet. At least there was some advance in other parts, such as Tilly getting a promotion (in position) as first officer, some insight on the Burn event, as well as some more data for treknobabble research on the Burn.

[Crazedwraith]

Interesting episode, lots of continuity to TNG and Picard which is nice Especially using archived Unification footage and Nimoy rather than re-shooting it with Disco's Spock actor, even though they also had a shot of him. Michael's reaction to Nimoy!Spock was great as well.

On continuity with itself... I thought Michael wasn't let into the Science Institute so Spock could be, wayback in series 1? Or was that a post-Institute program?

Plus, she was erased from history at the end of Season 2. Sure, the Federation explained what happened to Discovery, but they don't trust the Federation and they shouldn't know Spock had a sister to revere.

The lack of mentioning the black hole tech was disappointing I guess they are going with Dilithium was used in all forms of warp drive but eh. I guess it doesn't gel more with non-canon tech manual than anything else.

Disco has a really bad case of main characters do everything. And Tilly's promotion can only be attribute to t hat. She's the only main character left that could fulfill the role. Saru's captain, Michael's been fired and Stamets is a vital component of their drive system. They got ride of Commander Nhan as well and they've been building Saru and Tully's relationship all season.

But it doesn't make sense, Tilly just does not have the confidence and experience required. I guess there's a lot of room for coming into command, subplots there I guess.

[Darth Lucifer]

On continuity with itself... I thought Michael wasn't let into the Science Institute so Spock could be, wayback in series 1? Or was that a post-Institute program?

They were talking about the Vulcan Expeditionary Group. Here's the scene from "Lethe" (S01E06)

SAREK: I never lost faith in you. The failure on this day was mine, and mine alone. I will show you.
DIRECTOR: The Expeditionary Group has examined Graduate Burnham's application with great interest.
SAREK: Acceptance with honors is her due.
DIRECTOR: By conventional decision parameters, yes.
SAREK: Your hesitation is to do with her nature?
DIRECTOR: Certainly, her nurture is unquestionable.
SAREK: I have created in her a being of exquisite logic to rival the best of our species.
DIRECTOR: An accomplishment you have achieved not once but twice. Your ward, Michael, and your son, Spock.
SAREK: What has my son to do with this situation? He has not yet begun his studies at the Science Academy.
DIRECTOR: Upon completion, he will apply to the Vulcan Expeditionary Group, and then there will be not one but two non-Vulcans in its ranks.
SAREK: Spock is...
DIRECTOR: Half-Vulcan. Another of your experiments. The integration of humans into our culture is an admirable goal, but it must be titrated. In honour of your position and reputation I will accept one of your not-quite-Vulcans.
SAREK: You ask me to make an impossible choice.
DIRECTOR: Your reaction to this is quite illogical and suggests a conclusion based on emotion.
BURNHAM: You chose Spock over me, didn't you? You were forced into that decision. Why not tell me the truth?
SAREK: Spock went against my wishes and joined Starfleet over the Vulcan Expeditionary Group. The choice I made merited nothing. What would be gained by telling you that?
BURNHAM: Instead, you made me believe I failed you. You manipulated me. Do you have any idea what living with that lie did to me?
SAREK: I did not. But I do now. I failed you, Michael Burnham. And for that, I have so much...
BURNHAM: Shame?
SAREK: Yes.

[FireNexus]

The lack of mentioning the black hole tech was disappointing I guess they are going with Dilithium was used in all forms of warp drive but eh. I guess it doesn't gel more with non-canon tech manual than anything else.

On the contrary, Romulan warp drives are a plot point in multiple episodes. They cause Geordi to be frozen in a moment in an episode of TNG, and they are used to detect a fleet of cloaked warbirds around deep space nine just before they go through the wormhole to be murdered by the founders.

Unless the tech is fully abandoned and not picked back up for some reason, it’s not a minor tech manual type plot hole.

[Crazedwraith]

The lack of mentioning the black hole tech was disappointing I guess they are going with Dilithium was used in all forms of warp drive but eh. I guess it doesn't gel more with non-canon tech manual than anything else.

On the contrary, Romulan warp drives are a plot point in multiple episodes. They cause Geordi to be frozen in a moment in an episode of TNG, and they are used to detect a fleet of cloaked warbirds around deep space nine just before they go through the wormhole to be murdered by the founders.

Unless the tech is fully abandoned and not picked back up for some reason, it’s not a minor tech manual type plot hole.

Ah yes.

What I meant was that although they are canonically blackhole warp corps I don't know that they canonically said anywhere that that means they don't use dilithium.

[FireNexus]

Ah yes.

What I meant was that although they are canonically blackhole warp corps I don't know that they canonically said anywhere that that means they don't use dilithium.

It doesn’t, but it can be reasoned around. Maybe they use dilithium and antimatter to spin up the wormholes, trading a slightly smaller specific impulse for not Strangeloving around the galaxy. Or maybe dilithium-mediated antimatter warp drives so overtook the black hole cores in performance over a few hundred years that they’re still better even when dilithium is scarce.

It seems like something they might want to mention in passing, but only meganerds like us actually even notice.