The Mandalorian Discussion Thread (spoilers and such)

[chimericoncogene]

My understanding is that ISB = FBI/KGB, COMPOR --> COMPNOR = Loyalist Party --> Nazi Party/CCCP, and COMPFORCE = SA. The Stormtrooper Corps = Waffen-SS/Republican Guard, although some question whether the Stormies had armored formations and stuff.

[Patroklos]

Pretty much, except there was a division between military and domestic intelligence more akin to the FBI/CIA dynamic. Imperial Intelligence is the CIA, ISB is the FBI.

It’s muddled though as there wasn’t much in the way of true foreign powers to make that distinction the was we do in the high Imperial era. There was obviously significant grey area between the Rebels as an internal insurrection and the Alliance as a declared conventional military problem.

[Ziggy Stardust]

*Yawn*

As usual, no challenge was resented to our protagonists, and there was never a setback to their plan. half the show was essentially them waltzing down the middle of hallways with people falling down around them as if they weren't there to begin with. And even worse, until Gideon returned to the bridge the protagonists didn't think there was a challenge either (and that's their fault anyway, they should have moved the cruiser to a safe place the second they had control of the bridge for a LOT of reasons). And then they just sidestep 99% of that challenge too. No one dies, no one is injured, nobody loses anything irreplaceable. It's all meaningless. Kill off assassin lady or Bo Katan's sidekick, they are both superfluous anyway. Do SOMETHING of weight and impact.

I truly honestly don't understand why this show gets so much praise. I get that there will always be a subset of Star Wars fans who will eat up any and all Star Wars content, and that's fine. But this show is just ... bad. The writing is god-awful. The whole fake engineered conflict between Totally-Not-Boba-Fett and Starbuck over the Darksaber is one of the stupidest plot contrivances I have seen on a TV show in a long time. Maybe if they had actually bothered spending any time building up to this by telling us anything meaningful about the Darksaber or why we should care about it before this episode it could have felt meaningful. And maybe if they hadn't explicitly set up Bo-Katan as a character not rigidly tied to strict Mandalorian tradition when they introduced her earlier in the season it would have been easier to buy her suddenly giving a shit about this random one. Seriously, how can anyone take that scene seriously? Half the time this show reminds me of the South Park joke, "Whatever, you'll pay to see it, fuck you."

Hell, the show isn't even really all that fun as an action spectacle since the combat sequences are mostly poorly choreographed and boring (the worst is still the climactic encounter Chapter 14, which looked like they drove 10 minutes outside of LA and ran around the desert for 20 minutes then edited in a bunch of laser bolts shooting in random directions). The Krayt dragon fight and the ice spiders were the only sequences that actually looked good and felt fun to watch, the rest of the series has mostly been characters walking down hallways while 3 stormtroopers run at them then fall down, again and again. I mean, I know the stormtroopers weren't super effective in the original movies, either, but at least it LOOKED like they were trying to hit Luke et al. Like, the protagonists had to duck behind cover, and blasters left scorchmarks on the walls around them. Now, half the time the stormtroopers don't even shoot at all (they literally just run forward into the hallway and then fall down).

[Patroklos]

Pretty much. I watch it for the world atmospherics only at this point, but that only goes so far.

It's still better than the ST though. And that is why it is so successful because for fans that walked away from all that trash disgusted and demoralized they just need anything better. And the bar was low. That effect is starting to wear off, or has.

I am seeing memes and videos of people losing their shit because Luke made a cameo. He didn't do anything, and he was CGI with bad lip-syncing, but he looked like something other than a space hobo, isn't explicitly shitting on anything, and he is not an overt FU to them from the creators. So, awesome? I guess I can't understand people with such a low threshold for fulfillment.

[Galvatron]

I'm starting to think that Luke really could have taken on the whole First Order with his laser sword.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

I only have my own feelings to go on, but I see it this way. This series was okay/good on the whole, but it could have been great.

This, in my mind, is why so many fans get so annoyed about things like this; and it was also true of the Prequels and Sequels. There were lots of good individual elements, but something was missing. I could see something greater within it, something that was trying to claw its way out, but it just didn't quite manage it. They just didn't quite come together the way they could have done. The Sequels were arguably even worse than that, taking potentially worthwhile elements and then stomping on them.

A good example, to me, is Hux. In TFA he was a potentially interesting villain, and a clear counterpoint to Kylo Ren. He plays much the same role as Tarkin in ANH, representing the Empire/First Order's self-image, while Vader/Ren is the darker truth. Tarkin was smooth, aristocratic, never quite loosing his cool; while Vader was brooding, malevolent, and dangerous. Hux was similarly confident, self-controlled, with a professional air at least, and even came across as competent; while Kylo was similarly brooding and malevolent, but whereas Vader was dignified, Kylo was a roiling bag of unstable emotions, lashing out in fits of rage. Both sets, in their own ways, represented different aspects of their respective factions; what they want you to see, and what they really are.

But then TLJ rolled around, and he's reduced to a gurning incompetent who makes elementary tactical failures, and then gets slapped around for bad comedy. And in TROS he's an embittered failure, willing to bring down his own side just to see Kylo Ren fail, and then gets unceremoniously shot by Pryde; a fate that his character in its current state deserved, but which just highlighted the wasted potential, and to me, the mindset of the directors.

This is an extreme example, but to me it still represents the problem in its own way. In other works that don't quite measure up - such as the Prequels, The Mandalorian, and arguably Clone Wars and Rebels - it's a case of having good stuff and somehow failing to use it right. It's just more egregious in the Sequels.

Coming to the Mandalorian specifically; I fully agree that the stormtroopers just did not make effective enemies; and while that's fine in itself, the show needed something more powerful to make up for it. The Darktroopers started out well, but were sadly underused; never getting the chance to show what they could do before Luke swept in and wiped the floor with them.

My understanding is that ISB = FBI/KGB, COMPOR --> COMPNOR = Loyalist Party --> Nazi Party/CCCP, and COMPFORCE = SA. The Stormtrooper Corps = Waffen-SS/Republican Guard, although some question whether the Stormies had armored formations and stuff.

I'm getting the impression that the Stormtroopers don't have organic armoured formations. As far as I can see, the Imperial Army is divided into administrative 'Corps'; Stormtrooper Corps, Armour Corps, Army Air Corps, etc. Actual combat units seem to use stormtrooper units as a base, and tack on other units from the other corps as needed. Also, I got the impression that the stormtrooper 'look' is gradually spreading through the army. Thus we have AT-ST crews in Imperial army gear, Tank Troopers in army armour and a distinctive helmet, ITT drivers in a similar but distinctive armour and helmet, and the prestigious AT-AT crews in stormtrooper-esque armour and helmets not unlike those of the ultra-prestigious TIE pilots.

A minor quibble regarding COMPFORCE. They've been re-canonized in the RPG sourcebooks (along with COMPNOR generally), but are described as being an elite and totally loyal force, with the Assault subdivision handling special missions, and the Observation subdivision serving as secret political officers. In that respect they're more like the Waffen-SS, or the SS in general if their wider role and ambitions are considered.

[Patroklos]

Assault Division and Observation Division are niche subdivisions of the larger COMPFORCE, and the only ones specifically described as "elite" in contrast to the whole.

[Broomstick]

Maybe I have an advantage in that I never got into the EU novels, and pretty much have skipped the animated SW offerings as well.

I never watched the Mandalorian for great story-telling because I've never found that in SW and so don't expect to. For me, it's been something to kick back and relax and watch while I'm eating dinner after I come home from work. In that regard it worked very well and I suspect for many people that's part of the appeal - it's a Space Western that doesn't require and enormous commitment to get some enjoyment out of it.

I have mixed feelings about the Luke cameo, and it's not about CGI de-aging FX. Sure, it was fan-service and there's nothing wrong with a little of that, but that whole ending sequence dragged on with far too many Meaningful Looks between various parties. I've been a fan of Star Wars since the first movie, but it's "fan" with a small "f". I don't worship Luke Skywalker, I didn't care that in the later movies he looked like "space hobo". I liked the Mandalorian in part because there wasn't an enormous focus on The Force. Sure, it's there, but Mando is a standard, unmagical human in a world that has wizards in it and I found that viewpoint interesting and even refreshing. That might even had increased it's appeal to some folks who aren't normally fans of the SW universe.

Yes, it all could have been greater. But it wasn't. I'll probably still come back for new seasons because it's entertaining enough for that purpose. If the next season has better story telling I'll be pleasantly surprised, but I don't anticipate it.

[wautd]

My main gripe with the Mandalorian is that the fights are pretty boring because you know that, unlike with a show like Game of Thrones, that the main characters are and feel invulnerable.
That said, I'm happy that the show exists

[chimericoncogene]

Yeah, the Mandalorian is... competent, but it isn't particularly good. S2 is already a massive improvement over S1, which to me was really, really slow.

The plot is threadbare, the fights are poorly choreographed, and the awesomeness is often fanservice and throwbacks. The visuals are pretty good, and the equipment is nice - I was so happy when they showed a proper TIE rack, and came up with the TIE Outland instead of having TIEs sit on their wings.

But to be honest, the bar isn't very high - it was never super-duper high to begin with, which is why the Sequels were so frustratingly bad (heck, a straight Dark Empire remake, unoriginal as it would have been, would probably have been better received). And no Star Wars is going to be perfect for everyone - heck, I'd like to see a Hull 721-esque series, with teraton turbolasers, mushroom clouds, astronomical objects depicted in the false-color majesty of Hubble pretties, and yottawatt Star Destroyers, telling a tale of economics, grand strategy, politics, and war - but one man's treasure is another man's trash, and it wouldn't please everyone.

As the most competent Star Wars we've had in a decade, R1, the Mandalorian and TCW have become natural points of reference for "good". I'm willing to stick up for the Mandalorian despite its flaws because there seems to be a need to provide clear and unambiguous market signals for filmmakers.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

Assault Division and Observation Division are niche subdivisions of the larger COMPFORCE, and the only ones specifically described as "elite" in contrast to the whole.

A fair point, though I can't find any Canon info on the wider CompForce. The Legends article describes CompForce as being ideologically pure but practically useless; a bit like the modern stormtrooper corps .

Regarding qualitative differences within the corps - aka, why Vader's troopers can shoot straight and others can't - I think I just about have an answer, as follows.

From what I've been able to find, the Stormtrooper corps evolved gradually from the clonetroopers; with human stormtroopers being brought in to replace the clones as their numbers decreased. Stormtrooper training at this point focussed heavily on ideological indoctrination, with only relatively basic military skills being taught; such as physical fitness, weapons handling, equipment maintenance, military procedures, etc. Anything more advanced, the stormtroopers learned from their older comrades once they were assigned to their units. The clones had done a lot of fighting, which allowed them to iron out any problems in their training or doctrine, and actually improve them too; and the early stormtroopers in turn absorbed that experience. If they did FPS-level stuff like standing in the open and shooting, they could at least expect an earful from enraged clones, and clone NCOs riding herd on them until they learned not to do it.

Over time, as the number of clones dwindled, and the stormtroopers were expanded, this backlog of experience gradually dwindled; made worse by the remaining clones being concentrated in the more prestigious units; such as Vader's 1st Legion. In turn, this meant that as the corps grew, a greater and greater number of legions had only a thin leavening of clones, or no clones at all. So whereas the clone-heavy units acquired a sufficient legacy of experience that it lingered long after the clones were gone, the other units did not; and knew only what their academy instructors had taught them. Hence, the prestigious legions carried the clone legacy with them in both their skills and their attitude, and it showed in their combat performance; while others did not, and performed far less well.

As for training, I would say it comes down to a failure of Conditioning as opposed to Teaching. Simply teaching a civilian the skills and knowledge to be a soldier is relatively easily; indeed, much of it can be done in a classroom. But if you want a soldier to do it right under pressure, then you need to replace normal stress reactions with the required behaviours; and the most reliable way to do that is to have them do it over and over again - while under psychological pressure - until they get it right; a process that can be called Conditioning. RL armies do this both through constant practice, and through war-games and exercises; getting the troops to do their jobs in as close an environment to a real battle as possible.

In Star Wars, we know that it's possible to create ultra-realistic, non-lethal training environments; if only via the Stun setting. So there's no practical reason why the stormtroopers can't get this kind of training, as the clones did before them. The obvious answer is that the training programme is too short to allow for it; and the Empire is unwilling to either cut back on something else (ideological indoctrination, maybe) or to extend the programme to make up for it. So troopers go out there knowing what they need to know, but with insufficient practice, causing them to make FPS-noob-level mistakes under fire.

[Solauren]

It's possible the Empire, with it's vast resources, were simply practicing 'training by fire' training.

Imperial Trainer - "Let's start your training - Here's your rifle, here is how you use it. Hit that target"
Trooper (aims, fires) - "Done sir. What's next?"
Imperial Trainer - "Congratulations, your finished training. Go report to the Quartermaster, you muster out in 20 minutes."

The ones worth keeping are the ones that survive their first few engagements. The ones that die, well, obviously they were not worth training.


Now, post Endor, in any continuality, that's horribly wasteful. That could be why Moff Gideon was trying to revive and use the Darktrooper project.
We saw what one of them did to Mando. If not for his armor, Mando would have been turned into mincemeat.

As it was, if the Darktroopers had been better armored (assuming we go with original Darktrooper canon, they're using Phrik, which is blaster resistance/reflective, but not lightsaber resistant), Mando probably would have been killed, and Luke might have had problems with them.

[Lord Revan]

It's possible the Empire, with it's vast resources, were simply practicing 'training by fire' training.

Imperial Trainer - "Let's start your training - Here's your rifle, here is how you use it. Hit that target"
Trooper (aims, fires) - "Done sir. What's next?"
Imperial Trainer - "Congratulations, your finished training. Go report to the Quartermaster, you muster out in 20 minutes."

The ones worth keeping are the ones that survive their first few engagements. The ones that die, well, obviously they were not worth training.


Now, post Endor, in any continuality, that's horribly wasteful. That could be why Moff Gideon was trying to revive and use the Darktrooper project.
We saw what one of them did to Mando. If not for his armor, Mando would have been turned into mincemeat.

As it was, if the Darktroopers had been better armored (assuming we go with original Darktrooper canon, they're using Phrik, which is blaster resistance/reflective, but not lightsaber resistant), Mando probably would have been killed, and Luke might have had problems with them.

That kind of makes sense and could explain why the empire collapsed so fast after Endor. The imperial forces probably had massive amounts of organizational inertia preventing any fast adaptions to the new situation on a large scale so bulk of the imperial forces were using tactics and strategies that worked when they were the masters of the galaxy but now are idiotically wasteful. Add a dash of in-fighting between the various imperial remnant factions and you could easily have far faster collapse then you'd expect.

[Solauren]

Combine that with no legal order of succession, and everyone directly under Vader being more of less of equal rank and with a massive ego....

[Lord Revan]

Combine that with no legal order of succession, and everyone directly under Vader being more of less of equal rank and with a massive ego....

and the fact that thanks to Operation:Cinder previously loyal people and planets may no longer be counter to be loyal (for example Mayfield(sic)), so maintaining a large capital ship fleet and a large army will much harder, now that worlds that previously could be counted to be supply bases or recruitment grounds, might now say deny access and say some unkind words about the imperial agents maternal parent (or equivalent). That or look the other way when a rebel agents sneak on board and disable the ships.

[Galvatron]

All a part of the Contingency, apparently.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Contingency

Mas Amedda may have been able to assume nominal control of the Empire if his fleet admiral hadn't been groomed by Palpatine to destroy it.

[chimericoncogene]

Cinder is irritatingly ahistorical - the only people who would have followed the order would have been true-blue Clones (maybe a fanatic or two), and any people who followed such orders would have promptly gotten blown up by the rest of the Imperial Navy as Moffs jockeyed not to get their power bases blown up.

However, the Empire is full of Clones, and since the average gunboat has a multi-kiloton (if not multimegaton) turbolaser battery, any world with inadequate or compromised shielding is going to suffer a lot of casualties. Cinder could have done a lot of damage in the several days it would have taken to sweep up Cinder-compliant forces, even if the compliance rate was <1%. And yes, it would have handily destroyed the Empire.

[Patroklos]

What makes you think clones are prolific within the Empire? Especially their command elements?

The primary reason operation cinder is stupid is because Palpatine didn't die. It sort of makes sense in top-level motivation if Palpatine really was dead and didn't want anything surviving him out of spite. The Nazis tried this during their Eastern front withdrawals within prewar German territory, but for the reasons already provided here, it was mostly ignored.

The other problem is that while the top echelon of Imperial leadership was loyal to Palpatine, they were also fiercely ambitious and territorial. These are not people that go down with the Captain, they are people that feared the Captain and relied on him to maintain a balance amongst equally ambitious courtiers and strike out on their own as soon as necessary/required.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

Cinder is irritatingly ahistorical - the only people who would have followed the order would have been true-blue Clones (maybe a fanatic or two), and any people who followed such orders would have promptly gotten blown up by the rest of the Imperial Navy as Moffs jockeyed not to get their power bases blown up.

However, the Empire is full of Clones, and since the average gunboat has a multi-kiloton (if not multimegaton) turbolaser battery, any world with inadequate or compromised shielding is going to suffer a lot of casualties. Cinder could have done a lot of damage in the several days it would have taken to sweep up Cinder-compliant forces, even if the compliance rate was <1%. And yes, it would have handily destroyed the Empire.

I'd go so far as to say that the Empire disintegrated precisely because at least some of the Moffs and Admirals and local bigwigs tried to stop Operation Cinder. Their own needs forced them to fire on the flag, so to speak, and break the lingering idea of Imperial loyalty and unity. I don't know any examples of this happening, but it makes a lot of sense, and would be interesting to see.

Admiral Garrick Versio, for one, rationalised the whole thing as a strategy to defeat the rebellion; to terrorise the galaxy into submission. Doubtless that's what he, and a lot of other senior officers, preferred to believe; even when loyal worlds like Vardos were targeted. Only at Jakku, in the final hours of his life, did Versio finally accept the truth. Emotional investment can make people believe and do the most unimaginably appalling things; and if they find it in themselves to break that mental block - as the aforementioned warlords likely did - it can send them right off the deep end. Gideon was probably one of the more stable warlords out there.

What makes you think clones are prolific within the Empire? Especially their command elements?

The primary reason operation cinder is stupid is because Palpatine didn't die. It sort of makes sense in top-level motivation if Palpatine really was dead and didn't want anything surviving him out of spite. The Nazis tried this during their Eastern front withdrawals within prewar German territory, but for the reasons already provided here, it was mostly ignored.

The other problem is that while the top echelon of Imperial leadership was loyal to Palpatine, they were also fiercely ambitious and territorial. These are not people that go down with the Captain, they are people that feared the Captain and relied on him to maintain a balance amongst equally ambitious courtiers and strike out on their own as soon as necessary/required.

As far as I can figure out, Palpatine's motive was partly spite, but also to trash the galaxy so that no one could unite it against him when he returned. Or at least that's the only interpretation I could come up with that made a measure of sense.

It does add another motive for the Cinder-compliant officers, at least if they're in on the Contingency. They know they're going to be taken to safety afterwards, and spend the next decades happily building up the First Order. It's one less reason to say no; at least for the kind of people Palpatine likely chose.

[Patroklos]

Just like WWII Nazis, nobody wants to live in a burnt-out cinder for 30+ years, whether they are winners or losers. If there was a stark separation between Imperial supporting worlds and everyone else where only those others were being razed, maybe (like a Warsaw during the German retreat). There is no indication such a stark line existed on a galactic scale and no indication Operation Cinder was geographically limited.

There is also no indication in-universe of some dramatic galaxy population cull, something easily achievable and inevitable given Cinder's supposed execution and executioners.

[PREDATOR490]

Watched it and I appreciate some of the detail being put in but the series has major problems.

Empire - Are made of complete glass and incompetent beyond belief. The only time the Stormtroopers were remotely competent was when they were helping the good guys in the episode with Bill Burr.
Normally, Stormtroopers cannot hit anything even at point blank range - however when the 'Pirates' charge at the Stormtrooper line - EVERY one of their shots hit.

We also have the consistent shitting on Stormtroopers / Empire at every stage to the point that even Bill Burr is throwing out lines that the helmets are worthless because he cannot see.
When your villians are this pitiful, any narrative 'danger' or consistent 'threat' falls flat.

Fett - Seriously, fuck off. The wank over this character is repulsive.
I also find it hilarious that the armor was literally hanging off the actor and looking pitifully fitted to the point it was stretched and might fall off.
You might get away with that if they had been sensible and mention that he needs to fix it up. Instead, the next episode has him walking off with a brand new set of armor and it is still not fitting properly - No way is that the same armor.

The only interesting thing was seeing the Slave I interior but... it was just as disappointing as expected. The interior makes no sense from the little we see.


Luke Skywalker - The attempt was nice and the CGI has improved but not enough to make it passable. Uncanny Valley Luke was extremely off-putting.
The entire scene was also a bit lame.

Noone is going to ask the name of the magic Jedi ?
Luke is just going to fly an X-Wing up to an Imperial cruiser and take the kid without asking ANY questions ?
Mando-Daddy is just going to hand over his 'ward' without getting any details about the man taking Grogu or WHERE to go if he wants to honour the promise of seeing him again ?

I guess the 'Force' told Luke to show up and flying up to an Imperial cruiser in an X-Wing was not going to be a problem.
The Force also told Luke to slaughter all the droids and just magically leave with no information or context on what is going on.
I guess it is lucky Fett buggered off to avoid THAT awkward exchange.

Mandalorian - The wank over Besker and their 'super' powered abilities needs to fuck off and die.
On one side of the spectrum you have Stormtrooper armor that is literally paper.
On the other side you have Besker which might as well be 'GOD' armor.

The only thing that can stop the Darksaber is "PURE" Besker
Oh... you mean the "PURE" Besker the Mandalorian just got in the form of a spear. Imagine that.
Except, we see that even a lightsaber cannot go through Besker armor.

The wrist mounted darts - Apparantly they were a 'limited' resource... which the Mandalorian has been using for 2 seasons now and ONLY runs out when facing Gideon.
I would also like to know how Gideon 'magically' came out with that dialogue. Character magically knows how many darts the Mandalorian has fired and when they are out ?


Extremely lazy and bad story telling.
I like the tone of the series and thematically it works.
The actual story telling and narrative are abysmal to the point of absurdity.

[Anacronian]

I love they took one look at Temuera Morrison and thought "Man he's fat enough to be the new Jabba the Hutt.. hey that's a good idea"

[chimericoncogene]

What makes you think clones are prolific within the Empire? Especially their command elements?

The primary reason operation cinder is stupid is because Palpatine didn't die. It sort of makes sense in top-level motivation if Palpatine really was dead and didn't want anything surviving him out of spite. The Nazis tried this during their Eastern front withdrawals within prewar German territory, but for the reasons already provided here, it was mostly ignored.

The other problem is that while the top echelon of Imperial leadership was loyal to Palpatine, they were also fiercely ambitious and territorial. These are not people that go down with the Captain, they are people that feared the Captain and relied on him to maintain a balance amongst equally ambitious courtiers and strike out on their own as soon as necessary/required.

Oh, I think a reasonable percentage of the Stormtrooper Corps is probably still heavily conditioned or chipped. Even if the Moffs and Navy officers balk at Cinder, the boys in white would just shoot em all and execute the orders themselves. Like I said, even a 1% compliance rate is enough to kill a lot of people.

Also, those opposing Cinder would have been the overwhelming majority. Star Wars is supposed to have normal people in it most of the time, and normal fanatics aren't that fanatical. You're a Moff. Do you want to spend twenty years building a new army for that old coot or do you want to rule a sector and live the high life?

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

You know, back in Season 1 Mando wasn't extremely godlike. Against a whole load of uncoordinated bounty hunters he required support from his whole enclave of Mandalorians in 1x03. (And the Mando enclave later got wiped out. Really makes people wonder how that happened...)

[Soontir C'boath]

I'm gonna go with Broomstick on this one.

It could be better, but it's not bad either. More than anything I am glad to finally have a live-action series that explores the SW universe. It's long past due.

That said I think my only complaint is: Tatooine is the backwater planet that can't seem to die in importance. There has to be thousands if not millions of planets in this galaxy, but we're always going back to Tatooine.