Falcon & Winter Soldier -- SPOILER THREAD

[GuppyShark]

Clint was on Team Cap in the Civil War, his family was snapped, and he went rogue. Wanda was on Team Stark and was snapped.

I think it's fairly reasonable their priorities post the Blip didn't align. Clint needed to get his family back together, Wanda needed to mourn.

[Crazedwraith]

Clint was on Team Cap in the Civil War, his family was snapped, and he went rogue. Wanda was on Team Stark and was snapped.

I think it's fairly reasonable their priorities post the Blip didn't align. Clint needed to get his family back together, Wanda needed to mourn.

They were both on Team Cap, Wanda was on Team Cap because Clint went to get her and talked her into it. Clint also talked her into fighting in Sokovia and talked to her at Stark's funeral. Other than Vision, he's the Avenger we've seen be close to most. (her interactions with the rest of the New Avenger team being mostly off-screen) Clint's family was already 'back together' by the funeral, though obviously there are a lot of post snap issues to work out.

Again, it's not that what we're shown doesn't make sense, necessarily or is that unreasonable. It just not my preffered take on the characters.

[Coop D'etat]

Yeah, I guess my complaint in both cases is not really that it's very illogical or inexplicable, just I don't like it and want the Avengers to be closer and not just 'friends from work'. lol. Just a personal preference I guess.

She just spent the last couple years of her life (pre-blip) as an outlaw Avengers team with Cap, Widow and Falcon, plus secretly shacking up with Vision. So I imagine that's basically her social circle. Hawkeye would be someone she was somewhat close too a while ago and has been dealing with his own trauma.

[Solauren]

Also, we don't know the time frame between Blip (Part 2), and Wanda finding out Sword had vision. It appears to be just under 3 weeks (given the dialogue with Monica Rambeau when she returned to work). For all we know, Clint had just talked to her. Then she goes to Sword, drives for a few hours, and then we get the start of WandaVision. (Which appeared to have taken less then a week end to end).

Also, post-blip, the world would be chaotic enough, that it would be easy for Sword to keep what was happening under wraps, until Monica and co said 'okay, this guys a crook' and called in legal back-up.

[LadyTevar]

Also, we don't know the time frame between Blip (Part 2), and Wanda finding out Sword had vision. It appears to be just under 3 weeks (given the dialogue with Monica Rambeau when she returned to work). For all we know, Clint had just talked to her. Then she goes to Sword, drives for a few hours, and then we get the start of WandaVision. (Which appeared to have taken less then a week end to end).

Also, post-blip, the world would be chaotic enough, that it would be easy for Sword to keep what was happening under wraps, until Monica and co said 'okay, this guys a crook' and called in legal back-up.

If the Hex was up for more than 7 days, I'll be surprised, and here's why:
Agent Woo said was that they'd lost touch with a Federal Witness under Protection in Westview. I don't know for sure how often FBI checks in on their Protected Witnesses, but I'd be willing to bet it's probably once a week. Woo would have been dispatched to check on them immediately after they'd tried all methods of immediate contact (phone/text/etc).

[Solauren]

So, the blip to the end of Wandavision represents about 1 month of time. Spiderman 2 hasn't even occured in the timeline yet!

[LadyTevar]

So, the blip to the end of Wandavision represents about 1 month of time. Spiderman 2 hasn't even occured in the timeline yet!

I think you're right.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

The problem with Cap handing Wilson the shield is that Wilson isn't a supersoldier like Rogers or indeed Bucky and so lacks the superhuman strength to throw the shield around the way Cap did so it makes sense that Wilson would choose to retire the Captain America identity. Hopefully later episodes will explain why he didn't just let Bucky assume the mantle the way he did in the comics.

The way they showed US Agent's face to me was incredibly narmy, I wasn't impressed by what I saw and felt he looked ridiculous.

[Crazedwraith]

I'm reasonably sure you're supposed to find him ridiculous. He's a cheap knock off they're pushing for morale reasons. Not a genuine attempt at a new Cap.

I don't think mcu Bucky has any desire to be Cap.

[GuppyShark]

They need to find a way to get some Super Soldier Serum into Sam Wilson. Then he could be Cap without that 'normal guy with some toys' baggage.

Shit, maybe Cap could have found a way to sneak some to him on his time travel escapades?

[Crazedwraith]

Or they could find some variety of knock off. Like Patriot used in Agents Of SHIELD

That said though, did the comics Sam Wilson have any super powers when he was Cap? I would have thought the messaging would be 'it doesn't matter if you have superpwers so long as you hold to the ideals of America to the best of your abillities'.

[GuppyShark]

Stopped reading comics well before the [temporary] Death of Captain America, so I have no idea about Captain Sam Wilson. But a normal human being can't fill those boots. Cap was an anchor, he was the guy who stood there, shield up, 'I can do this all day'. Falcon's a DPS, his survivability comes from being faster than everyone and being able to attack with impunity.

[LadyTevar]

Stopped reading comics well before the [temporary] Death of Captain America, so I have no idea about Captain Sam Wilson. But a normal human being can't fill those boots. Cap was an anchor, he was the guy who stood there, shield up, 'I can do this all day'. Falcon's a DPS, his survivability comes from being faster than everyone and being able to attack with impunity.

That's really good ways of looking at it, and you're right. Cap was the Tank.

[Coop D'etat]

John Walker is clearly the modern version of Hodges, the guy Colonel Tommy Lee Jones wanted to be the first super soldier.

Big, strong, fast and obeys orders, he's a soldier.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Yeah, both he and Hoskins are cheap knockoffs of the original Cap and Falcon, neither of them are enhanced in any way which puts them at an immediate disadvantage since Cap had the serum and combat experience, New!Cap only has the latter, and Hoskins can't fly.

Well second episode and they basically fuck up dealing with some trucks carrying Coronavirus vaccines, when it would have been child's play to have Redwing plant tracking devices on both of them, instead Redwing gets wrecked. New!Cap shows up and despite being competent at first quickly ends up no better off than Falcon and Bucky. Exactly why Falcon decided it was better to walk back to the airport instead of you know, flying there goes unexplained.

They decide to go meet Zemo at the end, even picturing him with a chess set to reinforce his motif as a Chessmaster.

[Coop D'etat]

I mean, its not really about the powers at all, its the attitude. Walker lacks the qualities beyond the physical that Rodgers had.

[Crazedwraith]

It's interesting even over the course of one episode, I think the stress of being Cap is getting to Walker, he's immediately started throwing his weight around to try and get Bucky and Falcon on his side. And goes from clean shaven to stubbly which is usual visual code for 'not all that together'.

And to go back to what I was saying. Walker is enchanced and can clearly use and throw the shield. That doesn't make him Cap. Sam's different fighting style doesn't make him not Cap either.

Hoskins/Battlestar is actually canonically John Walker's side kick, which I didn't realise under I heard his codename. Apparently he was originally Bucky but that's degoratory towards Black people, got complaints and was quickly changed. Unlike Sam he seems to be a complete liability in a fight. (Though to be fair he was outnumbered by supersoldiers his first time out so can't blame him too much)

-

Now the meat of the episode. The "funny" double act, general incompetency and bickering of Falcon and the Winter Solider. I know it's built in the concept and it makes sense, and they will be bonding over the course of the series and they were like that in Civil War, what little scenes they had together and so forth. But it didn't really click or entertain that much.

So Bucky can just invite himself on Sam's hero work?

A psychiatrist can just order Sam about despite having no authority over him whatsoever? I wonder if the Shippers will squee over the couple's therapy bit or consider it queer-baiting? I mean it's interesting character work in that Bucky actually does open up like the therapy is meant to do and gets shut down hard by Sam for it.

Consider Sam was nice and trying to reach Bucky the last episode that's a shift, though obviously Bucky coming after him about the shield has made him less sympathetic.

Not sure how I feel about introducing the Isaiah Bradley retcon from the comic books as well. (Oh shit, he's played by Carl 'Martian Manhunter' Lumbly. ) They clearly drawing on a lot of Captain America law for this.

It's not bad, but it feels like a step down from episode one to me, which is odd.

[GuppyShark]

Walker seems like he's trying to do the best he can with the cards he was dealt. It would obviously be huge for his credibility if he can get "Falcon & the Winter Soldier" onside.

WRT the psych, I don't think it was an order as much as it was social/soft pressure. Sam played along until he had enough.


EDIT: My actual thoughts on the episode.

Isaiah was an allusion to the historical medical experimentation that did happen to black people. The cops showing up because a white guy and a black guy were walking down the street speaking loudly is also an example of the systemic oppression that also happens to black people. To this point, I think only Black Lightning has covered that in the superhero genre. They only got out of it because he was a literal superhero, and plot twist - they arrested the white guy.

Rare to see stuff like that covered in the MCU.

[LadyTevar]

My thoughts:

While the whole opening with Walker was good for showing WHY they picked him, it also called back to the USO Tours that Steve was forced to do. I found it very interesting that the Band was all POC, all the dancers and cheerleaders too. Was that the school band? A USO band he brought with him?

And Bucky watching it and getting more pissy by the second

Sam's yet to explain to anyone other than Rhodey why he gave up the shield. I don't think he wanted to even admit it to Dr. Rainer.
Still -- tracking Redwing, because it's Government Property? that's low. RIP Redwing. I hope they can replace him

ON to the FlagSmashers. Karli Morgenthau. Irish nationalist, I'm betting by the accent. Obviously well-loved by her followers. Also, a very nice soundbite about those in power "coming back to take it all from the ones who stayed". Considering how much would get done if Mitch McConnell and several of the other congress-critters blipped out... Yeah, I get it. Still doesn't explain the SuperSerum they had to have taken, to get strong enough to punch Bucky around like that. Round 1 -- FlagSmashers.
Round 2 -- Introducing "The PowerBroker" and his men. Lots of firepower in those vans. Also showed more of the loyalty that Morgenthau's followers have. The FlagSmashers got away, but now we know they've got other enemies.

Then the gut-punch as we meet Isaiah. Shit.. he tore Bucky's arm off, but SHIELD/HYDRA/government agents found an excuse to jail him for 30years, just to have a guinea pig to steal SuperSerum from. I'm betting we'll find out his blood's the basis for the FlagSmasher's serum. The question is, how did they get hold of it? Stolen from the PowerBroker?

I did like that Bucky was able to tell Sam what he felt, seeing the shield in the 'wrong hands'. Especially painful the "if he was wrong about you, was he wrong about me!" line. Sam's still not up to really saying why he did it. I don't think he even told Rhodey the truth. Still amusing that it was the White Guy arrested during an obvious Police Racial Profiling. And, yet... not really. Why were there two cop cars just cruising a black neighborhood to begin with? Racial Profiling? Or old plot to 'keep an eye on' Isaiah?

[Agent Fisher]

My thoughts:

While the whole opening with Walker was good for showing WHY they picked him, it also called back to the USO Tours that Steve was forced to do. I found it very interesting that the Band was all POC, all the dancers and cheerleaders too. Was that the school band? A USO band he brought with him?

Pretty sure it was the High School's band since it was his old high school, and they were playing a cover of 'Star Spangled Man with a Plan'.


And I really hope they don't turn Walker into a Villian. I could easily see that happening to help make us route even more for Bucky and Sam.


And tracking him through Red Wing, I mean, you could just say 'Hey, you're working for the USAF on a contract, they gave you a lift on a C-130, so you know... Kinda easy to find you.'

[Batman]

Walker performed 'at least' as well as Steve on a bad flu day so don't try to tell me he's an ordinary human. I could've accepted his handling of the shield due to practice (pretty much ALL the Avengers use the bloody thing when it comes in handy-Thor hammers it when they need a shockwave, Tony bounces repulsor blasts off it, Nat'll hop off it with Cap boosting her and so on) but don't try to tell me he could fight like that as an ordinary human.
Especially with at least some versions of the Super Soldier Serum all over the place.
And is it just me or does Walker look like a nice enough guy in civvies but when he puts on the mask, he looks like a complete dick?

[GuppyShark]

I'm not American but I've heard that's what happens there - once a cop makes a stop, any idle officers in the area converge, which often just makes things worse.

I was surprised that Redwing was 'killed'. I felt like they put a lot of effort in the first half of the episode into making Redwing an actual character with a personality.

[GuppyShark]

I just rewatched Captain America: Winter Soldier.

Falcon's origin story is he used to fly an experimental weapons platform that was under 'heavy guard' at Fort Meade. Next scene, he's wearing it. No buildup, no heist, he's just a superhero now.

In this universe, you can be a superhero with zero powers. At least that explains how the new Captain America can sling the shield around like Steve Rogers. You don't need anything.

[Crazedwraith]

The implication in Winter Soldier is that they, probably Black Widow heisted it so easily that they don't need to show you getting it.

Of course that set had a wing torn off by Winter Soldier and at the very least by Civil War it had been rebuilt/replaced by Stark out of stark tech and that's when he got Red Wing. (He also had multiple Redwings in Infinity War)

Calling Redwing government property was extremely iffy tbh. Though Sam did say airforce technicians had mucked about with her in episode 1, so that's probably why they can track her.

Yeah, Sam's never had power. Hawkeye's never had powers, Black Widow's never had powers. Steve didn't really have powers at first. He's 'peak human' not 'superhuman'. I don't know what the hang up on powers is. It's not required to be a hero or Captain America. Just the attitude/values. That's the point.

[GuppyShark]

Hard disagree there. Steve Rogers had powers. He wasn't just 'peak human' in the MCU. The Super Soldier Serum and the radiation therapy made him arguably the closest thing to Superman the MCU had seen until Captain Marvel and Thor.