Falcon & Winter Soldier -- SPOILER THREAD

[Crazedwraith]

Steve's power level escalated with each film. He wasn't that powerful in First Avenger or The Avengers bit stronger in Winter Soldier and Age Of Ultron and much stronger in Civil War onwards.

But it's still not the point. powers =/= heroism.

[GuppyShark]

Steve stopped a helicopter from taking off by holding on to it.

That's a bit beyond peak human. That's powers.

Regardless, nobody is saying anyone in the cast isn't a hero. At most, we're asking what we would want from a post-Steve "Captain America".

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I figured now was a good time to re-watch when Rogers became Captain America:

In Civil War Rogers and Bucky spend the entire film doing things that are impossible for a normal human to do. That film was also the first time that Redwing bit the dust so we know it can be replaced.

[Crazedwraith]

Steve stopped a helicopter from taking off by holding on to it.

That's a bit beyond peak human. That's powers.

Did you fucking read what I wrote about his powers increasing with time!?!

And again everyone's making out that Sam has to be powered or fight like steve or throw a shield well to replace Steve and that is missing the whole point entirely stil.

[Broomstick]

Yeah, both he and Hoskins are cheap knockoffs of the original Cap and Falcon, neither of them are enhanced in any way which puts them at an immediate disadvantage since Cap had the serum and combat experience, New!Cap only has the latter, and Hoskins can't fly.

Let’s be fair – Walker seems to be on the top of the unenhanced human range for just about everything. He’s a potential superhero in the sense of Black Widow or Hawkeye – extraordinary ordinary human.

Well second episode and they basically fuck up dealing with some trucks carrying Coronavirus vaccines, when it would have been child's play to have Redwing plant tracking devices on both of them, instead Redwing gets wrecked.

I don’t get the Redwing hate. Maybe I’m biased, having flown remote control “drones” myself.

Exactly why Falcon decided it was better to walk back to the airport instead of you know, flying there goes unexplained.

I thought it was obvious that Sam flying back wasn’t going to be able to take Bucky with him, so Bucky would have to walk anyway. Granted the two have an abrasive relationship, neither is going to strand the other like that.

I mean, its not really about the powers at all, its the attitude. Walker lacks the qualities beyond the physical that Rodgers had.

Bingo.

It's interesting even over the course of one episode, I think the stress of being Cap is getting to Walker, he's immediately started throwing his weight around to try and get Bucky and Falcon on his side. And goes from clean shaven to stubbly which is usual visual code for 'not all that together'.

Even at the start it was clear Walker’s confidence in his ability to do the job was shaky, and with this mission things probably got a little more real for him.

He clearly wants Bucky to say something positive, but while Bucky (I think) would have been OK with Sam replacing Steve (given Sam was chosen by Steve) he clearly thinks Walker is a piece of shit. Walker is probably intimidated by Bucky who has been doing this sort of thing for what, 80 years?

And to go back to what I was saying. Walker is enchanced and can clearly use and throw the shield. That doesn't make him Cap. Sam's different fighting style doesn't make him not Cap either.

Is Walker enhanced or not? I thought he wasn’t.

And it’s not the fighting style that makes Captain America, it’s the integrity and moral fiber that made him worthy to wield Mjolnir. Walker wouldn’t be able to budge the hammer the width of an atom.

A psychiatrist can just order Sam about despite having no authority over him whatsoever? I wonder if the Shippers will squee over the couple's therapy bit or consider it queer-baiting? I mean it's interesting character work in that Bucky actually does open up like the therapy is meant to do and gets shut down hard by Sam for it.

Sam probably doesn’t want to screw things up for Bucky – if he didn’t comply the psychiatrist might have been able to make things difficult for Bucky. He might also feel partially responsible for Bucky missing his court-mandated therapy.

As for their differing reactions to therapy – well, Bucky has been in therapy and learning how to use it. Sam not so much.

Walker seems like he's trying to do the best he can with the cards he was dealt. It would obviously be huge for his credibility if he can get "Falcon & the Winter Soldier" onside.

Especially if he can get Bucky on his side.

Isaiah was an allusion to the historical medical experimentation that did happen to black people. The cops showing up because a white guy and a black guy were walking down the street speaking loudly is also an example of the systemic oppression that also happens to black people. To this point, I think only Black Lightning has covered that in the superhero genre. They only got out of it because he was a literal superhero, and plot twist - they arrested the white guy.

Rare to see stuff like that covered in the MCU.

I had heard that “racial stuff” had been inserted into the episode in a heavy-handed manner, but I actually found it was well done and integrated into the storyline. I’m totally OK with realistic things like that being included.

Also, just as Sam was recognized as a superhero I think Bucky was recognized as someone a little less savory, hence they ran a check on him and found a warrant for his arrest. But sure, it could have gone a lot worse for either or both.

Then the gut-punch as we meet Isaiah. Shit.. he tore Bucky's arm off, but SHIELD/HYDRA/government agents found an excuse to jail him for 30years, just to have a guinea pig to steal SuperSerum from. I'm betting we'll find out his blood's the basis for the FlagSmasher's serum. The question is, how did they get hold of it? Stolen from the PowerBroker?

Maybe it’s like HeLa cells – bought and sold all over the world, but poor Henrietta Lacks and her heirs never got a penny of any of it.

I'm not American but I've heard that's what happens there - once a cop makes a stop, any idle officers in the area converge, which often just makes things worse.

Speaking as an America who has been stopped a few times over the years… that’s not 100% true. Granted, I’m a pretty harmless looking White woman, cops probably don’t feel a need to call backup for little old me. Other friends I’ve had – sometimes a bunch of squads show up, sometimes they don’t. Racial profiling can be a factor. So can gender profiling – they’re much more likely to ask for backup when dealing with a man than a woman. Number of people in the car/group. How the people in the group are reacting to the cops. Whether or not they’re looking for a particular person. Recent crime in the area. Etc.

In this instance, there’s likely a watch on Isaiah, too.

So... you have a White and a Black man having a loud argument in the street. Someone calls 911. Maybe an Isaiah handler, maybe someone else. Cops pull up. Maybe one of them notices the White guy has a fancy prosthetic arm or thinks the guy is wearing some sort of armor - sure, that's not suspicious, right? Both of these guys are fairly big and healthy looking, sure, if there's probably the cops might want a little backup and if there is no trouble no problem, right? Plausible.

[Crazedwraith]

And to go back to what I was saying. Walker is enchanced and can clearly use and throw the shield. That doesn't make him Cap. Sam's different fighting style doesn't make him not Cap either.

Is Walker enhanced or not? I thought he wasn’t.

And it’s not the fighting style that makes Captain America, it’s the integrity and moral fiber that made him worthy to wield Mjolnir. Walker wouldn’t be able to budge the hammer the width of an atom.

Huh, I don't know why I thought that at time of writing that. Yes, it's not been stated that he is enhanced. He's, just as you said, like Natasha/Clint level skilled. He's a super soldier but not a supersoldier so to speak.

And that second paragraph is really what I've been trying to get at all along. Sam is his successor because Steve thought he'd carry on with his values and ideals rather than having his skills or powers.

[Batman]

Skills and powers wise he's outmatched by pretty much everybody on the team (at least he should be). The powers guys have their powers, the tech guys have their tech, and Clint and Natasha have a lot more training. All Cap has is being Cap (well and the super soldier serum but that looks pretty 'so what' when you hang with the likes of Thor, Hulk or the tech guys). Cap has always been about the attitude and values, never the powers (which Steve allegedly doesn't have)

[GuppyShark]

Did you fucking read what I wrote about his powers increasing with time!?!

And again everyone's making out that Sam has to be powered or fight like steve or throw a shield well to replace Steve and that is missing the whole point entirely stil.

If you don't have powers, they can't increase over time.

That's a fair point about Sam becoming Cap. I'm not sure if there is a point to Sam rebranding as Captain America if he doesn't fight like Captain America. He might as well just stay as Falcon.

Maybe they want to actually establish Walker as Captain America II, not just use him as an antagonist, and this is going to be his first character arc.

As time goes on, this problem is going to start cropping up more. In the comics, they never have to worry about actors aging up. If they want to keep having an Avengers that consists of Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, they need to have succession planning in place.

[LadyTevar]

Then the gut-punch as we meet Isaiah. Shit.. he tore Bucky's arm off, but SHIELD/HYDRA/government agents found an excuse to jail him for 30years, just to have a guinea pig to steal SuperSerum from. I'm betting we'll find out his blood's the basis for the FlagSmasher's serum. The question is, how did they get hold of it? Stolen from the PowerBroker?

Maybe it’s like HeLa cells – bought and sold all over the world, but poor Henrietta Lacks and her heirs never got a penny of any of it.

That was what I was thinking, but I couldn't remember the name HeLa stood for off the top of my head, so I left it off.

As for how they handled the racism?
Yeah, the "Black Falcon", because he's black.
Isaiah getting screwed over, because he was black.
The cops getting antsy at Sam's reactions, not at Bucky, who did not have his arm showing iirc.

That's REAL. That Happens.
And anyone who thinks it was "overdone" is probably WASP-y as hell, and are bitching because it's hurting their feelings. They can bow out now, because Sam's going to be facing more racism over the next few eps.

[LadyTevar]

BTW: did anyone notice that when Bucky caught the shield as it passed, Walker ran by him and grabbed it back?

[GuppyShark]

BTW: did anyone notice that when Bucky caught the shield as it passed, Walker ran by him and grabbed it back?

Not initially, but I rewatched it. Walker throws it at a Flag Smasher, it rebounds towards Bucky, who catches it in his right (human) hand. Walker snatches it as he runs past. I don't think Bucky was trying to keep it, just reacted in the moment, since if he tried he could probably have made that harder fror Walker (Bucky's a super soldier, Walker is a mundane). Also, Bucky immediately looks pissed. But Bucky always looks pissed.

[LadyTevar]

BTW: did anyone notice that when Bucky caught the shield as it passed, Walker ran by him and grabbed it back?

Not initially, but I rewatched it. Walker throws it at a Flag Smasher, it rebounds towards Bucky, who catches it in his right (human) hand. Walker snatches it as he runs past. I don't think Bucky was trying to keep it, just reacted in the moment, since if he tried he could probably have made that harder fror Walker (Bucky's a super soldier, Walker is a mundane). Also, Bucky immediately looks pissed. But Bucky always looks pissed.

I don't know. I can't parse the look on his face. It could be "huh, I caught it", or it could be "i have it, do I keep it?" Either way, walker reclaims it before Bucky can do more.

Also, Walker's real moment of "open mouth insert foot" was when they were in the humvee together, and he said he really "needed Cap's wingman", which was the moment Sam was OUT. Again, this plays to the racism in a way, as Walker didn't want SAM the FALCON as himself, Walker wanted the legitimacy of having Cap's Sidekick.

[GuppyShark]

Also, the way Walker throws the shield around in this episode clearly shows that if Sam had kept it, he probably could be doing the same crazy things. Even without the serum, superheroes just seem to be able to do physics defying things in the MCU.

[Batman]

That shield has defied physics since freaking forever no matter who used it. As I said before, ALL the Avengers make use of it so I can buy into 'it's just a matter of training' (except the guys didn't HAVE any as a team for the original Avengers movie but let's not go there).
Bucky letting Walker have the shield back didn't look like a big deal to me. His expression was ordinary Bucky pissed-off, I think this was a baseline 'we're in a bit of a scrap right now and this person likely can make better use of the shield than I can' hand-over. Remember, it's not like Cap was the exclusive handler of the shield, pretty much every Avenger made use of it in some fashion at some time.

[GuppyShark]

And to Walker's credit, he used it to save Hopkin's life.

[Broomstick]

Also, the way Walker throws the shield around in this episode clearly shows that if Sam had kept it, he probably could be doing the same crazy things. Even without the serum, superheroes just seem to be able to do physics defying things in the MCU.

You want physics defying? Look at the way Bucky jumped out of the airplane. Sure, in theory the trees could break his fall enough to survive but the odds are so long as to make it a really stupid move, and even if it did work he would probably be too injured to get up and walk.

But it's a comic book world where even mundanes can survive shit that would be lethal in our world.

[GuppyShark]

Bucky's a super soldier. It's not the arm that made him the Winter Soldier.

[GuppyShark]

Bucky's a super soldier. It's not the arm that made him the Winter Soldier.

EDIT: Just because I don't want a double quote.
Currently rewatching Captain America: Civil War. Falcon is a lot more impressive in this than he has been in the TV show. He uses his wings as a portable siege shield. And he has guided missile launchers as well as his machine pistols.

EDIT 2: Clicked the wrong button, clearly.

[Crazedwraith]

Did you fucking read what I wrote about his powers increasing with time!?!

And again everyone's making out that Sam has to be powered or fight like steve or throw a shield well to replace Steve and that is missing the whole point entirely stil.

If you don't have powers, they can't increase over time.

Yes, fine, you're technically correct. What I should have said was 'Cap barely had powers at first' , my point was that even at his lowest power level, he's still Cap. And First Avenger beats you over the head with the idea that Steve makes a good Cap because he's a good man.

That's a fair point about Sam becoming Cap. I'm not sure if there is a point to Sam rebranding as Captain America if he doesn't fight like Captain America. He might as well just stay as Falcon.

The idea is that Captain America is a powerful symbol of unity/hope/peace etc. That's why they've gone to the trouble of creating Walker!Cap for the PR boost not because one dude with a shield is that much of a game changer.

People who wouldn't listen or care tuppence about that "Black Falcon" fella are going to pay attention to Captain America.

-

Couple of extra things. I loved that scene taking a little jab at characters like Black Panther/Lightning name their black characters, Black.

And was it just me or was Sam even more pissed off at the 180 of the Cops when they realised he was an Avenger than he was at the initial profiling? It reminded me of the Brooklyn 99 episode MooMoo.It's not okay to be nice to him personally because he's 'one of the good ones' in effect.

ETA: Sam's interactions with the public in both episodes have been good with common people and higher ups at the Smithsonian thing. I want to go back and check if his joke got a laugh at the Smithsonian because Walker's noticeably did not on Good Morning America. It's one of those things that's painting Sam as a better Cap by my theory.

[GuppyShark]

Thankyou for acknowledging that I was technically correct, as that's the best kind of correct.

At this point, I'd still want Walker to be Cap. He's the one trying to build a team. Sam and Bucky are telling him to go get stuffed because they're salty over him wearing Cap's heraldry. And Falcon has apparently forgotten he has ranged weapons, since he keeps flying into melee.

EDIT: I get it, I'm putting a lot of importance on tactical issues, but a dead Captain America doesn't inspire anyone.

[Crazedwraith]

I mean, yes, Walker isn't looking so bad at the moment. It's early days though; I'm expecting Walker to crack up more over the course of the show.

And he's building a team but it's clear it's as much about the trappings and appearance of having Steve's sidekick as his sidekick as it is actually wanting to team up.

Sam's not going to end up more or less dead because of a costume change. I did notice in the first episode those he's stopped using the machine pistols he used to carry. He did use a grapple gun then. I wondering if it's about the optics of being a hero from an out-of-universe perspective.

In this specific episode he got close to try and help Bucky, firing into melee isn't too smart.

[GuppyShark]

Yeah, agreed on almost all counts, at the end of this either Walker or Falcon will be Captain America, but I want it to be earned either way.

However, Walker was able to use his handgun to fire into melee with no issues. Falcon has previously exhibited the ability to designate and hit targets with supreme accuracy.

EDIT: Yeah, I think I'm coming around to your way of thinking. A Captain America who doesn't lead from the front would be weird, but still viable.

[LadyTevar]

Also, the way Walker throws the shield around in this episode clearly shows that if Sam had kept it, he probably could be doing the same crazy things. Even without the serum, superheroes just seem to be able to do physics defying things in the MCU.

You want physics defying? Look at the way Bucky jumped out of the airplane. Sure, in theory the trees could break his fall enough to survive but the odds are so long as to make it a really stupid move, and even if it did work he would probably be too injured to get up and walk.

But it's a comic book world where even mundanes can survive shit that would be lethal in our world.

My brother Brett did that. In 1984, during one of his training missions. The chute didn't fully open and he came down in a corpse of pine trees. They bent instead of breaking, and he finally stopped 10ft short of the ground when his chute got caught. He was alive, he was in pain, but amazingly nothing was broken. He cut himself free and limped off to meet his squad.

Miraculous? Yeah. But shows it can be done, especially since Bucky was 'only' 200ft up (iirc).

[Broomstick]

Even a collapsed parachute provides some drag, both in the air and while falling through trees. What kills people in a fall really is the sudden stop at the end and not how high up you start. Anything you can do to slow down how fast you stop (lessen your de-acceleration in more formal terms) increases your survival. Your brother has a partial 'chute collapse to slow his fall. Bucky jump entirely without a 'chute. It is still possible to survive such a fall through trees, just unlikely because instead of having a material object to add additional drag through both air and trees you have just your own body. In addition impact damage you might also wind up impaled.

Aside from that - anyone else thinking that Sam's discussion with the young boy about not being the Black Falcon but just "Falcon" is a set up for Sam becoming Captain America? Not "the Black Captain America" but just "Captain America" period?

[GuppyShark]

Bucky has a) some HYDRA knockoff super soldier serum B) a vibranium arm he can use to reduce impact damage. He pretty clearly relied on that arm to lessen the impact, and that's something vibranium does. Captain America didn't need a parachute.