Falcon & Winter Soldier -- SPOILER THREAD

[Broomstick]

Well, sure. And when vital to plot even unenhanced humans in the MCU are more durable than they would be in our world.

[Crazedwraith]

Well, sure. And when vital to plot even unenhanced humans in the MCU are more durable than they would be in our world.

Ever since Tony Stark's mk i flight in Iron Man 1

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Bucky has a) some HYDRA knockoff super soldier serum B) a vibranium arm he can use to reduce impact damage. He pretty clearly relied on that arm to lessen the impact, and that's something vibranium does. Captain America didn't need a parachute.

[Crazedwraith]

Bucky has a) some HYDRA knockoff super soldier serum B) a vibranium arm he can use to reduce impact damage. He pretty clearly relied on that arm to lessen the impact, and that's something vibranium does. Captain America didn't need a parachute.

-snip video of Cap using a parachute in The Avengers-

Use your words, mate.

He does a parachuteless drop at the start of Winter Soldier. It was into water though. I'm not sure of how high up you need to be for that not to matter.

Also from about 20 stories up in the same film. He did smash through a glass roof and explicitly used the shield to break his fall that time.

[Elheru Aran]

We didn't actually see him hit the water in Winter Soldier, IIRC, so I suspect he probably broke his fall with the shield there as well. If it absorbs impacts, it's a pretty rational move.

A cursory google search suggests that falls into water are fatal most of the time after about 200-250 feet or so. Altitude of the SHIELD Quinjet was unknown but probably not very high as to avoid alerting the HYDRA terrorists on the ship.

[Batman]

Height of the time of the jump was unknown but by the time the target ship came in sight during Cap's drop I'd eyeball he was STILL at least 50 metres (and likely more) up and he definitely landed feet first in the water

[GuppyShark]

Can confirm.

https://youtu.be/uu17v0DdpKQ?t=83

[Crazedwraith]

I just rewatch Winter Soldier the last couple of evenings: Cap also does a couple of long drops on to helicarriers with parkour rolls. Bucky himself jumps from an overpass that others had to rappel from, with just bent knees.

Supersoldiers surviving long drops is a thing.

[Coop D'etat]

Zemo as a Eurotrash Baron was perfect.

Coptain America can't handle the gig and its still mainly the fault of the brass that thought he could.

Agent 13 gets a John Wick scene.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I had a feeling the Wakandans would show up when Bucky found those spheres, I wonder if Shuri will show up to join Okoye. Surprisingly Zemo hasn't made an escape attempt yet, though he undoubtedly plans to. Did they say whether Zemo was snapped (like the scientist) or not?

They also talked about destroying the shield, I'm pretty sure unless you have Thanos' sword that's not even possible.

[Batman]

Somebody remind me what those spheres are please.
Thanos' sword was the only thing observed to damage the shield. That's not the same as it being the only thing that can. Bucky seemed to be pretty confident destroying was an option. Neither Mjolnir, Stormbreaker or Tony's weapons (leave alone Captain Marvel's energy blasts or Vision's beams) were ever employed to 'destroy' the shield

[Agent Fisher]

The marbles at the end? They're Wakandan tech, I think some sort of sensor bead or something. Bucky spots one and he knows someone from Wakanda is there. And thats when we run into Ayo, one of the Dora Milaje, who I think is Okoye's second in command. So, the Wakanda Special Forces are here, looking for Zemo.

Here's Ayo in Civil War.

[Crazedwraith]

Somebody remind me what those spheres are please.
Thanos' sword was the only thing observed to damage the shield. That's not the same as it being the only thing that can. Bucky seemed to be pretty confident destroying was an option. Neither Mjolnir, Stormbreaker or Tony's weapons (leave alone Captain Marvel's energy blasts or Vision's beams) were ever employed to 'destroy' the shield

Black Panther's claws in Civil War damaged it as well. It's a good bet they could unmake the shield pretty easily if they wanted.

-

Episode thoughts:

Walker’s expecting the respect according to Steve because he’s Captain America, without having earned it the same way.

Okay, they leap straight to breaking Zemo out of jail? They also seem to have retconned Zemo’s deal to being about all super-soldiers rather than the Avengers specifically and mixed in some more comics stuff. Don’t know how I feel about that.

Sharon's gone grimdark. Zemo obviously is out of control and kills people he wants to kill.

Sam is unprepared, incompetent and is relying on action movies for tactics despite being ex-military and an Avengers vet of years? Fuck off. I'm missing the character work of the first episode.

[Crazedwraith]

etA: double post

[EnterpriseSovereign]

With Zemo they did the same as what they did with Boba Fett- show him to be far more competent in combat in one scene than in an entire movie.

[Crazedwraith]

With Zemo they did the same as what they did with Boba Fett- show him to be far more competent in combat in one scene than in an entire movie.

Well, yeah but Civil War doesn't show him as an incompetent in combat. Just combat wasn't a part of his plan, which was complicated and nearly flawlessly executed and very successful.

The Count stuff isn't really working for me.

[LadyTevar]

The Count stuff isn't really working for me.

He's always been BARON Zemo in the comics. So, they made him a hereditary "Royal Family", with a Minor Title, and made him a "Magnificent Bastard" with a talent for "Xanatos Gambits". Unlike hundreds of other "Eurotrash Peerage" they actually gave him a good bit of money to go with the Title, which now explains how he had the money and connections to find a Hydra Agent with Bucky's codewords, buy the explosives used on the UN Meeting, replace the doctor that should have been interviewing Bucky, create the EMP device that allowed him to use the Codewords, and all the traveling he did over Europe and into Siberia.

As for the jailbreak? Let's be honest, Zemo already had that all planned out. All he needed was someone on the outside do One Little Thing -- hand a note to a certain prisoner to start the fight. Bucky complied. Zemos' plan played out exactly as he'd told Bucky it would (and as Bucky narrated to Sam).

I think Zemo also was wanting the woman he was meeting dead (he might have set up the assassination). He always meant to kill the doctor who made the SuperSerum (and thus more of the so-called Heroes he hates). He'll probably find ways to kill the FlagSmashers too.

[Elheru Aran]

Note regarding Cap's shield: Thor has hit it with Mjolnir before, and it just bounced (see: Avengers movie). That said, yes, Black Panther/the Wakandans can probably melt vibranium.

Zemo is basically being set up as a Magnificent Bastard/supreme conspirator. I'm halfway certain Bucky will end up either killing him or trying to.

Point of interest: Madripoor has frequently been associated with the X-Men. There's been a decent amount of speculation that the Marvel shows are working their way up to introducing mutants and/or the X-Men, potentially in the Doctor Strange 2 film with the whole 'Multiverse of Madness' deal.

[Batman]

When Thor hit the shield in Avengers he was trying to get Cap out of the way, not destroy the shield, so he likely wasn't hitting as hard as he could and was possibly taken by surprise by how ridiculously tough the thing is

[LadyTevar]

Note regarding Cap's shield: Thor has hit it with Mjolnir before, and it just bounced (see: Avengers movie). That said, yes, Black Panther/the Wakandans can probably melt vibranium.

Zemo is basically being set up as a Magnificent Bastard/supreme conspirator. I'm halfway certain Bucky will end up either killing him or trying to.

Point of interest: Madripoor has frequently been associated with the X-Men. There's been a decent amount of speculation that the Marvel shows are working their way up to introducing mutants and/or the X-Men, potentially in the Doctor Strange 2 film with the whole 'Multiverse of Madness' deal.

I'll admit, at first I thought Zemo was "The Powerbroker".
Now, unless this was a really magnificent Xanatos Gambit to kill his rivals/underlings for making moves without his permission, I think Zemo's more concerned about destroying all trace of the Serum and those who've used it. Whether this includes Bucky we'll have to see.
Of course, this is Comics. I could be right about the Powerbroker angle.

Point of Interest: Yes, I thought it was THAT Madripoor. Yes, there's still rumors that Dr. Strange's movie will merge the 'verses. People went nuts over Fake-Pietro as another sign it was coming. We'll just have to wait and see.

[Crazedwraith]

The Count stuff isn't really working for me.

He's always been BARON Zemo in the comics.

Sorry, Baron, yes. Not Count. I know it's from the comics but it doesn't really fit the impression he gave himself and his family in Civil War to me.

The existing explanation from Civil War that he's sokovian special forces who got Hydra secrets out of SHIELD's data dump at the end of Winter Soldier worked perfectly well to me.

[Broomstick]

There's no reason he can't be BOTH special forces AND a baron at the same time. Military service has a long tradition in a lot of aristocracies. Perhaps even more so in a small nation like Sokovia.

[Crazedwraith]

There's no reason he can't be BOTH special forces AND a baron at the same time. Military service has a long tradition in a lot of aristocracies. Perhaps even more so in a small nation like Sokovia.

That's true but the argument 'he can't be both' wasn't exactly the one I was making.

My main point was he was clearly wasn't written an aristocrat in CW from the way he talks about he and his family.

And as second related point, while Civil War's explanation doesn't mean he can't be a Baron, it also doesn't require it. There's not any big plotholes in CW, to my mind anyway, that are closed by him being a Baron. It's just a retcon to make him more inline with his comics counterpoint, which is kind of lame to me when he was already a pretty interesting decent character without that.

It's a different medium with a different history, let him be different. IMO. YMMV. Etc. Etc.

[Crazedwraith]

I especially laughed at him sticking on the classic (goofy) comics Zemo mask for about a minute before taking it off again. For no apparent reason.

[LadyTevar]

I especially laughed at him sticking on the classic (goofy) comics Zemo mask for about a minute before taking it off again. For no apparent reason.

Since he wore it ONLY when he was in combat, there is probably a reason. Hide his face? Protect his face?