Zach Snyder's Justice League

[Majin Gojira]

You've heard wrong.

Every member of the League matters in this cut. They needed to work together to defeat Steppenwolf, whereas in the original Superman just kinda shows up and single handedly saves the day.

Honestly, I have my doubts about that.

I mean, even if they all work together to stop Steppenwolf, there changing the Superman Resurrection Fight Scene to something that doesn't make the league look bad is only going to go so far in not making it as if he overshadows them entirely.

But, again, I could be wrong on that. My point was, Superman showing up and saving the day is just one aspect of that sort of portrayal, and it's going to be hard to minimize it no matter what they do.

That, and after seeing that clip of Wonder Woman vaporizing a guy and then turning to a girl who wants to grow up and be like her, which she encourages...

I'm just... it looked like the parody origin of a supervillain.

Throw in some philosophical distinctions, tiredness of the desperation to be 'taken seriously' in an inherently silly subgenre as a tone ("Adolescent Storytelling" to draw on C.S. Lewis), and I just can't muster up the interest.

[Galvatron]

Imagine if the MCU superheroes were held to the same standard of moral perfection as their DC counterparts are.

[Gandalf]

Imagine if the MCU superheroes were held to the same standard of moral perfection as their DC counterparts are.

I guess all of the charming quips really cover up the sins.

[GuppyShark]

You've heard wrong.

Every member of the League matters in this cut. They needed to work together to defeat Steppenwolf, whereas in the original Superman just kinda shows up and single handedly saves the day.

Honestly, I have my doubts about that.

I mean, even if they all work together to stop Steppenwolf, there changing the Superman Resurrection Fight Scene to something that doesn't make the league look bad is only going to go so far in not making it as if he overshadows them entirely.

But, again, I could be wrong on that. My point was, Superman showing up and saving the day is just one aspect of that sort of portrayal, and it's going to be hard to minimize it no matter what they do.

That, and after seeing that clip of Wonder Woman vaporizing a guy and then turning to a girl who wants to grow up and be like her, which she encourages...

I'm just... it looked like the parody origin of a supervillain.

Throw in some philosophical distinctions, tiredness of the desperation to be 'taken seriously' in an inherently silly subgenre as a tone ("Adolescent Storytelling" to draw on C.S. Lewis), and I just can't muster up the interest.

The best Superman stories are the ones he doesn't just punch his way out of.

This is one of those stories.

Yes, when he fights the league, he can outpunch them. That doesn't save the world.

[Crazedwraith]

Imagine if the MCU superheroes were held to the same standard of moral perfection as their DC counterparts are.

Imagine if you actually tried to defend the film instead of just calling people hypocrites.

[Galvatron]

Defending it is pointless. I'm not going to change anyone's mind.

[Darth Yan]

Imagine if the MCU superheroes were held to the same standard of moral perfection as their DC counterparts are.

The MCU heroes are flawed but they also have enough good to balance out the bad (Tony Stark is a deeply damaged man but he also has plenty of kind and selfless acts to balance it out; Steve is a paragon but also makes mistakes and does stupid things).

[Gandalf]

Unless I'm hearing wrong, but one of the key problems with this film was, well, the Justice League itself doesn't matter. This isn't even a Justice League Plot, it's a Superman plot. The entire film revolves around Superman, even his absence is pivotal to the plot.

And the league is utterly useless without him. They can't stand up to Steppenwolf without him. They can't match him even working together. None of it.

You've heard wrong.

Every member of the League matters in this cut. They needed to work together to defeat Steppenwolf, whereas in the original Superman just kinda shows up and single handedly saves the day.

Spoiler

Also, the film sets up that while Superman is pretty handy, he's also a massive fucking liability. It's great when he is on their side, but if they lose him by losing Lois it's Knightmare time. That's one of my favourite things about the Batman/Superman relationship in this.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I just got this off Amazon and it came yesterday, had an evening to fill so watched the whole thing with my dad in one sitting. Well technically two as it shipped on two discs so I went to the bathroom at the halfway point. It was way better than the theatrical version, though the 4:3 aspect ratio came as a surprise, I can't say I was thrilled by that.

Here's the HISHE:

[Majin Gojira]

The best Superman stories are the ones he doesn't just punch his way out of.

This is one of those stories.

Yes, when he fights the league, he can outpunch them. That doesn't save the world.

Are you seriously suggesting that this story about an alien invasion isn't solved by punching things? Really?

This ain't Macross.

As to "The best stories aren't about him punching" well, my favorites (Superman Smashes the Klan, What's So Funny about Truth, Justice, and the American Way) aren't just about punching things. But do involve punching things.

But the philosophies of those books are ... different fro Zack's take.

Imagine if the MCU superheroes were held to the same standard of moral perfection as their DC counterparts are.

Well, when one set is held up as paragons and the other is made up of flawed humans intentionally...

[GuppyShark]

The best Superman stories are the ones he doesn't just punch his way out of.

This is one of those stories.

Yes, when he fights the league, he can outpunch them. That doesn't save the world.

Are you seriously suggesting that this story about an alien invasion isn't solved by punching things? Really?

This ain't Macross.

You still haven't seen it. Superman's ability to punch the shit out of Steppenwolf was never in question. What happens is that he shows up, tries that and it DOES NOT SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

So yes, I am telling you flat out that Superman's ability to punch the shit out of the big bad guy is not what saves the day.

[Majin Gojira]

You still haven't seen it. Superman's ability to punch the shit out of Steppenwolf was never in question. What happens is that he shows up, tries that and it DOES NOT SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

So yes, I am telling you flat out that Superman's ability to punch the shit out of the big bad guy is not what saves the day.

Interesting.

Then what does he contribute to the final battle?

I mean, it still doesn't solve the major problem I have with Zack Snyder's overall interpretations of these characters (IE: Individualism vs Collectivism is the best way I've seen it phrased so far), but I am curious about the blocking of the final battle at least.

Agianst Steppenwolf, not the "What could have been" downer ending thing I've heard about.

[Gandalf]

Then what does he contribute to the final battle?

He helps others in the battle with the punching, allowing for people with more specialist skills to solve the actual problem.

[Majin Gojira]

Then what does he contribute to the final battle?

He helps others in the battle with the punching, allowing for people with more specialist skills to solve the actual problem.

Jesus Christ, that makes this whole debate sound like tedious hair-splitting.

"He doesn't punch people, he provides covering fire."

I mean, that is an improvement, but...

[Crazedwraith]

Then what does he contribute to the final battle?

He helps others in the battle with the punching, allowing for people with more specialist skills to solve the actual problem.

You could make the same argument about the theatrical cut.

[Gandalf]

You could make the same argument about the theatrical cut.

Yeah, but in this cut the role of the people actually solving the problem is massively increased.

So Superman is punching on, alongside Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Batman. All in their own way. Superman gets a supermoment, but is definitely part of the ensemble.