Falcon & Winter Soldier -- SPOILER THREAD

[Crazedwraith]

Not in the others, It's implied in Avengers that the Hulk was created buy substituting gamma rays for vita rays in the process, though I don't think that was reference again anyway.

Also how Blonsky became the Abomination (in possibly the only MCU movie that you can't see on Disney+, because Universal owns it.)

To nitpick: Blonsky got two treatments. Some knock off supersoldier serum first, then an infusion of Banner's refined blood from Stern. He didn't get direct exposure to any kind of rays either time.

For Banner, Coulson says 'he thought gamma rays held the secret of unlocking Erskine's forumla and his traditional gamma ray exposure is often referenced. The implication Banner was on some kind of forumla as well isn't.

You also can't see the Sony Spidey movies on Disney+ either for similar reasons.

[GuppyShark]

Thanks. Best I could do was watch a YouTube compilation of Blonsky getting the serum (prompted by the earlier discussion of Walker picking up the vials earlier in this thread).

So Banner didn't take the serum himself? I thought it was the old trope of the scientist experimenting on themselves when the authorities won't let them proceed any other way.

Damn, that movie was a long time ago.

[Lost Soal]

I believe he did take the serum but Ross didn't tell him he was working on Super Soldier Serum, it was supposed to be for something else. I just can't remember what at the moment.

[Crazedwraith]

We meet Banner well post origin in The Incredible Hulk, iirc so it can be broad strokes considered a 2003 Hulk sequel or not as the viewer prefers. (It never references the 2003 movie but he starts out making a life in south america where the 2003 movie left it's Banner)

So the details about what caused it beyond 'fuck tons of gamma rays' and Coluson's line about recreating Steves are vague afaik.

[Tsyroc]

We meet Banner well post origin in The Incredible Hulk, iirc so it can be broad strokes considered a 2003 Hulk sequel or not as the viewer prefers. (It never references the 2003 movie but he starts out making a life in south america where the 2003 movie left it's Banner)

So the details about what caused it beyond 'fuck tons of gamma rays' and Coluson's line about recreating Steves are vague afaik.

Some of the flashbacks looked an awful lot like the opening to the 70's TV show to me.

If they were trying to stick with the Ultimates' storyline then Banner was trying to recreate the super soldier serum, or at the least make something that could make people resistant to radiation. That later part might be something from the movies but I'm pretty sure in the Ultimates he was trying to create super soldiers. I think he originally got turned into green mindless Hulk and then after they found Cap he added Caps blood to his mix and we got the crazy AF Ultimate Grey Hulk. It's been awhile since I read all of this so I might be off on some bits.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Thanks. Best I could do was watch a YouTube compilation of Blonsky getting the serum (prompted by the earlier discussion of Walker picking up the vials earlier in this thread).

So Banner didn't take the serum himself? I thought it was the old trope of the scientist experimenting on themselves when the authorities won't let them proceed any other way.

Damn, that movie was a long time ago.

Played with, it was actually his father David who did the experimenting on himself and passed the effects on to Bruce. Doesn't seem like that movie was released 18 years ago, Bana and Connelly were much better than Norton and Tyler.

[Crazedwraith]

Anyway, I wonder how Sam's going to end up beating Walker, defeating him in a fight against the odds would be satisfying as would Sam being able to talk him down and realise he's not living up to the role.

Or hey, both if they can manage it somehow.

[GuppyShark]

My money's on both. I'm sure Sam can talk Walker down, especially if Walker gets served a little humble pie in the process.

My preference would just for Sam to talk him down without it having to come to blows, though. Walker's already been humiliated, privately (by the Wakadans) and publicly (being recorded brutalising or executing a defeated enemy).

He could probably convince him the shield is too heavy for him.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

If they're going to emphasise the "learning to work together" trope then they'll have both title characters teaming up to defeat Walker.

[GuppyShark]

IMO, to prove (mostly to himself!) that he's worthy of Steve's legacy, Sam has to show he can't just solve problems with his fists/wings/gadgets, he has to inspire, empathise and lead. They have already started laying the groundwork for that.

EDIT: And yes, I'm aware that earlier in this thread I said pretty much the opposite, that Sam needed to get some Serum or whatever. I think I misjudged where the show was going.

[Crazedwraith]

If they're going to emphasise the "learning to work together" trope then they'll have both title characters teaming up to defeat Walker.

On that tangent, I found it interesting that Bucky repeatedly denies that Sam's his partner in episode 4. And to think about it they're not even friends. They have Steve in common but otherwise are not close associates. Bucky less interesting in being a full time hero as just getting Sam to follow Steve's last wish for him.

Another tangential related thought: Walker's downfall is conceptually related to Steve's words to Sam. Sam: Thanks, I'll do my best. Steve: That's why it's yours. Walker isn't content with doing his best. He's measuring himself against the impossible standard of Steve's legacy and reputation. Sam (or Bucky) have an advantage there of knowing the real Steve; his doubts, worries, imperfections etc. So they don't have the same standard to keep even if they were inclined to.

IMO, to prove (mostly to himself!) that he's worthy of Steve's legacy, Sam has to show he can't just solve problems with his fists/wings/gadgets, he has to inspire, empathise and lead. They have already started laying the groundwork for that.

EDIT: And yes, I'm aware that earlier in this thread I said pretty much the opposite, that Sam needed to get some Serum or whatever. I think I misjudged where the show was going.

I was and still am championing that bit but I have to concede I do want Sam so be a badass as well. He doesn't need serum or to fight like exactly Steve, but he must be convincingly be able to fall back on violence and fists/wings/gadget as the situation warrants.

[GuppyShark]

It must have been really cathartic for Bucky to work on the boat.

Basic mechanical engineering. No software, just technology from the era when he was born.

[Batman]

Great. Now I have to go back and check if there were any 'prior' post-credit scenes

[Agent Fisher]

I'll save you time, there weren't. THis was the first one.


And personally, as a welder, I wanna see Walker use that shield and have it fall apart on him cause those welds he was making looked like absolute utter birdshit.

[Crazedwraith]

Now that was a good episode, little bit of a tease at the end of the episode proper. Not showing us the wakandan made Cap suit for Sam.

It's good that Bucky made sure Zemo was taken back to jail. I loved the scene of Sam realising that they can actually ask people for help and Bucky helping out as well. It feels like a lot of what should be the meat of the series was concentrated in this one episode.

And Sharon's a confirmed villain now right? Ordering up Batroc to help Karli, wondering what her end game is.


eta: I knew it wasn't going to happen but the Hawkeye fan in me hoped for a Clint cameo being the one to teach Sam to throw the shield. In the comics he was the only one (at least after one Cap death) who could throw the shield as well as Cap and do properly complicated ricochet shots.

[Crazedwraith]

Oh and did any once catch that Bucky basically confirms that he and Steve talked though what Steve was going to do pre his last time travel trip in Endgame? And they jointly decided that Sam should be the new Cap?

Also I do hope that the next episode will have them realise they are friends and partners even without Steve. Again it feels like a disinction they could have emphasised earlier in the series rather than now.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Called it- Walker was defeated by Bucky and Sam teaming up, the only surprise was that it happened at the start instead of the end. Any word which organisation recruited Walker after he was kicked out of the military?

We've got Sam doing a Training Montage to get better at throwing the shield, no matter how well he trains or how hard he won't be able to throw the shield the way Steve did.

[Crazedwraith]

Called it- Walker was defeated by Bucky and Sam teaming up, the only surprise was that it happened at the start instead of the end. Any word which organisation recruited Walker after he was kicked out of the military?

We've got Sam doing a Training Montage to get better at throwing the shield, no matter how well he trains or how hard he won't be able to throw the shield the way Steve did.

Does he have to?

What surprised me was him leaving the wrecked wings with Torres. I'd assumed his Cap outfight would still contain all the flight capabilities.

[GuppyShark]

That's what the Wakandan crate is about.

I had the same fears as well. If he tries to just be Captain America, with the shield and nothing else, he's going to get his ass kicked just like Walker did.

He needs to be Falcon+.

[Crazedwraith]

That's what the Wakandan crate is about.

I had the same fears as well. If he tries to just be Captain America, with the shield and nothing else, he's going to get his ass kicked just like Walker did.

He needs to be Falcon+.

Sam didn't know about the suit when he abandoned the wings though. Was even planning to take the Cap identity then?

Still if the wakandan suit has flight tech or not, it could still be greatly enhanced over Walker's equipment if it's got black panther like vibranium gear in.

[GuppyShark]

At the point that he lost the wings, no, I don't think he intended to be the next Captain America. He did, however, have a crate of Wakadan tech he did not open.

I'm not even sure at this point if he wants to be the next Captain America.

But if he isn't a super soldier, a Wakandan Falcon+ suit will justify the 'solving problems with your fists' side.

Steve didn't give Sam his shield because he thought he was a great boxer, he gave it to him because Sam had heart.

[Batman]

Um-he DOES open the crate at the end of the episode (without us getting so much as a glimpse at what is inside of course. Bastards)

[GuppyShark]

Um-he DOES open the crate at the end of the episode (without us getting so much as a glimpse at what is inside of course. Bastards)

Correct. Bucky delivered that crate well before Sam started his very lengthy shield throwing montage.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Um-he DOES open the crate at the end of the episode (without us getting so much as a glimpse at what is inside of course. Bastards)

Correct. Bucky delivered that crate well before Sam started his very lengthy shield throwing montage.

Sam looked nervous as hell when he opened it and saw what's inside. The crate looked like it had wings on it which might be a clue. The episode had an end-of-season feel to it, we forget all about the GRC conflict until the last few minutes when someone takes out the power at the conference.

[LadyTevar]

I'll save you time, there weren't. THis was the first one.


And personally, as a welder, I wanna see Walker use that shield and have it fall apart on him cause those welds he was making looked like absolute utter birdshit.

Oh fuck yeah, and we're all waiting for the look on Walker's face when his second-rate shield fails just like he did.

And, for those NOT in the Military, what they did to Walker, stripping medals and rank? that's common according to my brother. Stripping ALL BENEFITS? That's major fuckup. Walker can't go to the VA, can't get insurance, can't get retirement, can't get JackSHIT of the stuff due a US Veteran. My brother stopped the show just to point that out. Which means no treatment for the very big, obvious Psychotic Break he had in the shed before Sam and Bucky broke his elbow to get the shield away.
(Yeah, I winced seeing that: Arms should NOT bend backwards!!!)