Anyone reading the comics these days?

[Galvatron]

But Vader didn't know everything. He saw the cloning tanks and the superlaser ships, but the Emperor didn't tell him that he was able to cheat death and leap into another body.

If I see cloning cylinders and they're full of Sheev Palpatine clones (remember, Vader is old enough to have seen Palpatine before he became old evil wizard palpatine)...um...yeah, it doesn't take a genius to figure this out.

They didn't even appear to be fully formed enough to look like anyone specific. For all Vader knew, Palpatine could have been cloning more of the Sith wannabes that he fought in the same issue.

[Galvatron]

Why the fuck is Vader doing this now in Empire Strikes Back?

Shouldn't he have done that back in A New Hope, after finding out he has a son?

Apparently this is why...



So his motivation for the post-TESB stuff was strictly punitive, not investigative. I guess he had some anger to vent after their showdown on Cloud City.

[Darth Yan]

Pretty much. Luke rejecting him that thoroughly would have SERIOUSLY rattled his cage.

[MKSheppard]

So his motivation for the post-TESB stuff was strictly punitive, not investigative. I guess he had some anger to vent after their showdown on Cloud City.

But wouldn't vader have that anger immediately post ANH after finding out Luke is his son? We saw a brief glimpse of that when he had Aphra torture the guy who handled her body for the funeral until he gave up the information. Why even stop there? There were tons of other people connected besides the funeral home director who had a hand in hiding Luke from him.

Why would Vader wait three years to start working over everyone who hid Luke?

[Darth Yan]

He wanted to focus on recruiting him I guess.

[Solauren]

Vader is casting blame, instead of accepting it on himself.

It was the people that hide Luke from the Dark Lord that caused Luke to regret him. Not Anakin's choice to become a Dark Lord.

[Gandalf]

That works with his ressurection on Byss/Exegol but not with RotJ where he was trying to recruit Luke as a better apprentice who would not have the same limitations as Vader.

Then I'll hazard a vague guess that the Emperor was getting paranoid about Vader, and hubristic enough to think he could manipulate Luke? If Vader wins, then killing one's son is a pretty good loyalty/skills test, and if not, new apprentice who hopefully isn't as good as his father.

[Solauren]

Alternative:
Sidious knew that eventually, his own apprentice would overthrow him. It's the way of the Sith, afterall.

Vader doing it, however, with his physical limitations, would leave him vulnerable to whomever Vader recruited as his apprentice.

That would mean the Empire would have 2 leadership changes in rather short order. That could cause a great deal of discord in the ranks of the Empire, and possibly to succession attempts/civil war.

Better to replace Vader with a new, younger apprentice, that would take longer to get to the point that replacement would challenge Sidious. That way, there is only one leadership change.

Also, it's possible that the Emperor wanted the throne to pass down a fixed line. If he really had a hand in creating Vader (as strongly implied by both Sidious's statement in Revenge of the Sith), then the throne going to Luke would mean it passed from what could be considered grandfather to grandson.

(Of course, that means that in Rise of Skywalker, Ben and Rey were kissing close relatives, but that's Disney for ya....)

[Elfdart]

The easiest way to handle the Disney-trilogy would be for all future material to ignore it.

I wrote this elsewhere, but it sums up what I loathe about Disney Star Wars:

If you pay heed to the Disney canon, the logical conclusion is that the Galaxy Far Far Away would have been infinitely better off if Vader and Tarkin had won the Battle of Yavin, crushed the Rebellion and killed Princess Leia. All those battles, all that death and destruction could have been averted if Han had simply flown off and left Luke to die in a fireball.

And that really sucks.

[Crazedwraith]

The easiest way to handle the Disney-trilogy would be for all future material to ignore it.

I wrote this elsewhere, but it sums up what I loathe about Disney Star Wars:

If you pay heed to the Disney canon, the logical conclusion is that the Galaxy Far Far Away would have been infinitely better off if Vader and Tarkin had won the Battle of Yavin, crushed the Rebellion and killed Princess Leia. All those battles, all that death and destruction could have been averted if Han had simply flown off and left Luke to die in a fireball.

And that really sucks.

That's making the assumption that the battles, death and destruction in the disney verse is worse than having lived under the Empire's fascist regime, backed up by the Death Star for the same period of time.

... which seems like a big assumption to me. Though granted the OT doesn't go into their day-to-day oppression a lot.

[Darth Yan]

The easiest way to handle the Disney-trilogy would be for all future material to ignore it.

I wrote this elsewhere, but it sums up what I loathe about Disney Star Wars:

If you pay heed to the Disney canon, the logical conclusion is that the Galaxy Far Far Away would have been infinitely better off if Vader and Tarkin had won the Battle of Yavin, crushed the Rebellion and killed Princess Leia. All those battles, all that death and destruction could have been averted if Han had simply flown off and left Luke to die in a fireball.

And that really sucks.

I wouldn't go THAT far (the empire was a corrupt tyrannical nightmare) but I do have to wonder what the point was if it was going to get undone.

There are a few hidden gems in Disney but overall what they suffered with was a plan. For all the prequels flaws you could at least see what Lucas was trying to do even if the execution was flawed. The sequels don't even have that.

[Darth Yan]

And yes the empire was INCREDIBLY murder happy; combine that with 35 years of free reign with a death star and honestly I'd say that the result is even worse.

[Lord Revan]

Well we saw in the Bad Batch series that the empire was not above gunning down unarmed civilians who had surrendered if they wished so and that episode happens at most a month from Order 66 (most likely days).

[Darth Yan]

Imagine having free reign AND the death star.....Frankly it's impressive but the rebellion winning was the better option if only because the Empire was an oppressive regime (They also completely wiped out the geonosians). They're just assholes (in both legends AND disney).

[Solauren]

While I 100% agree from the outside looking in, the Empire was bad. It could have been reformed, but that is neither here nor there.

However, from a view within the GFFA, it becomes very situational.

The great rank and file of the galaxy probably barely noticed a change in management between the Old Republic, the Empire, and the successor governments, regardless of canon. They'd go to work, get paid, and just see Imperial troops in addition to local law enforcement (or maybe as law enforcement).

For example, the people living on Tattooine probably didn't notice a difference beyond there being a token Imperial garrison (which to them, would just be another gang).

Most humans probably didn't notice, unless they were politically minded. Hell, the Imperial miltiary probably opened up more job opprotunities, either in the military, or a support industry.

Alot of places might have welcomed the Empire. The Empire was supposedly absolute hell on pirates and the like. And if Darth Vader was in the area, slavers probably wet themselves in fear.

The oppressed races, or ex-Confederacy races that just wouldn't clue in that war was over, no doubt saw things very differently. Politically outspoken people probably saw things differently.

But the majority? "Meet the new boss, asshole like the old boss" probably applies.

[Gandalf]

Imagine having free reign AND the death star.....Frankly it's impressive but the rebellion winning was the better option if only because the Empire was an oppressive regime (They also completely wiped out the geonosians). They're just assholes (in both legends AND disney).

I remember someone here once stated that the Empire (at least in the OT) is about as evil as you can be in a PG film. It's why their Nazi style aesthetic is so important, because it closes the gap between showing and telling just how bad they are.

[Darth Yan]

Blowing up a planet alone was pretty telling, especially Tarkin's reasoning being "eh the rebel base is located somewhere to remote lets blow it up to show off." Tellingly conservatives like Jonathan last didn't get the point

[Gandalf]

Yeah, their acts of evil are ultimately ones that can be seen on screen by a family in the seventies and eighties. Alderaan doesn't show any blood or gore, but it's all told through Tarkin and Leia's reactions. She lost everything, and for him it's Tuesday.

[NecronLord]

Alot of places might have welcomed the Empire. The Empire was supposedly absolute hell on pirates and the like. And if Darth Vader was in the area, slavers probably wet themselves in fear.

Or they sold to the Empire.

[Solauren]

Alot of places might have welcomed the Empire. The Empire was supposedly absolute hell on pirates and the like. And if Darth Vader was in the area, slavers probably wet themselves in fear.

Or they sold to the Empire.

Depended on several factors. Apparently Vader hated the slavery laws, but didn't act against it without permission.

And when he had permission to do something about it, or it was slaving against Imperial citizens....

I'd rather be a Jedi being tortured by Palpatine because he was bored.

[Lord Revan]

I'd say that in some ways the scene from the Bad Batch is more telling then blowing up Alderaan as it shows the Empire was that way from essentially "day 1" rather then being "forced" to use the DS over time (not my opinion but I can see someone argue since it took 20 years for the Galactic Empire to deploy the Death Star they weren't really bad just forced into evil).

However the Bad Batch scene shows that no the Empire was never the good guys and shooting civilians who had surrendered and were unarmed anyway was always their MO and using the DS is their typical MO in a planetary scale.

[NecronLord]

Depended on several factors. Apparently Vader hated the slavery laws, but didn't act against it without permission. [...] slaving against Imperial citizens....

"Imperial Citizens, the ones who hadn't been declared non-sapient yet."

Yeah, sure, Vader's an angry rage monster who will exercise his personal grudges when he gets the chance, but that doesn't make the government any less likely to systematically enslave people.

Take a look again at Star Wars Rebels:
Step 1. Nationalize farms that people have owned for generations.
Step 2. Indentured servitude for being impoverished.
Step 3.


Seriously man, fuck the Empire. Anyone thinking they're 'bringing peace and order' is really trying hard to ignore what we actually see them do for people's lives in the setting.

[Darth Yan]

Depended on several factors. Apparently Vader hated the slavery laws, but didn't act against it without permission. [...] slaving against Imperial citizens....

"Imperial Citizens, the ones who hadn't been declared non-sapient yet."

Yeah, sure, Vader's an angry rage monster who will exercise his personal grudges when he gets the chance, but that doesn't make the government any less likely to systematically enslave people.

Take a look again at Star Wars Rebels:
Step 1. Nationalize farms that people have owned for generations.
Step 2. Indentured servitude for being impoverished.
Step 3.


Seriously man, fuck the Empire. Anyone thinking they're 'bringing peace and order' is really trying hard to ignore what we actually see them do for people's lives in the setting.

Valin Hess in the Mandalorian is kind of the ice cold water; we see the empire and kinda root for them....and then Hess reminds us that no they're evil. Hell Operation Cinder alone is proof enough

[Solauren]

Like I said, it's about viewpoint.

To someone that the Empire has not impacted, and only benefited, they might not see a problem.

Especially if the Empire tightly controls the media (like all Tyranny's do).

That could be why it took 16 - 20 years for the rebellion to get any traction. (16 by the old EU, judging by how old Princess leia looked when Starkiller rescued her during the Force Unleashed).

[Elfdart]

That's making the assumption that the battles, death and destruction in the disney verse is worse than having lived under the Empire's fascist regime, backed up by the Death Star for the same period of time.

... which seems like a big assumption to me. Though granted the OT doesn't go into their day-to-day oppression a lot.

In ANH, it's made clear that if the Death Star destroys the Yavin moon base, the Rebellion will be wiped out and the Empire will win the war. Now they could, post-victory, go around zapping planets and moons for the fun of it, but that would be over the top, even for PG-rated space Nazis. For example, Vader could have easily blown away Cloud City using "conventional" weapons, or had his stormtroopers massacre the citizens after Lando defied him and helped everyone escape, but didn't.

In the Disney GFFA, an entire system gets blown away while the New Coke Empire has once again taken over almost the entire galaxy. I would think the loss of life from an entire system being destroyed would be worse than the death toll from two planets, plus whatever SS-style massacres the older Empire would have carried out for the 30+ years after Yavin.

I'm not arguing that the Galactic Empire wasn't evil. I'm arguing that thanks to Disney/Abrams, the struggle against them is made to look futile.