Afghanistan: Street fighting rages as Taliban attack key city

[Ralin]

1) election recall (that has to come from the people the congressperson represents, not from anyone in DC)

'Not able to show up to vote because they are in Taliban jail and/or dead' seems like a pretty solid reason for an election recall though.

[loomer]

The Hazara blokes I trust are showing more and more evidence for Hazara being beaten and shot at whenever they've tried to get to Kabul's airport over the last few days. Not a good sign.

[TimothyC]

Congress as a whole might be able to discipline them (to the extent that what they could be called that) but the only way to remove someone from Congress would be 1) election recall (that has to come from the people the congressperson represents, not from anyone in DC), 2) impeachment and conviction, or 3) death.

The third is true - and for members of the US House, the seat remains open until filled via election.

The second starts out at best wrong in terminology and then goes off the rails with the second part. Article 1, Section 5, Clause 2 states:

Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behaviour, and, with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member.

The first can't happen - there is no mechanism for recalling a member of congress.

The zeroth method would be using outside pressure to force a congresscritter to resign, but that isn't technically firing them, and isn't reliable.

[Broomstick]

1) election recall (that has to come from the people the congressperson represents, not from anyone in DC)

'Not able to show up to vote because they are in Taliban jail and/or dead' seems like a pretty solid reason for an election recall though.

US election rules allow dead people to be voted into office in certain circumstances and it does happen from time to time (usually immediately followed by a governor appointing a replacement until another election is held) so "in Taliban jail" is not necessarily an obstacle to being a Congressperson in the US, and given some districts may make the constituents even more enthused about the officeholder.

If they're dead of course they'll be replaced. Eventually. It's possible to leave a seat vacant until the next scheduled election.

If you say some of this is whack I'm inclined to agree - it's not like I have any control over the rules.

[Straha]

Biden has again reaffirmed the August 31st deadline despite pressure.

Much as I hate to say it, he is once again surprising me by handling this as best he possibly can.

[Solauren]

While the withdrawl has all the appearances of bad managing 'groundside', it's good to see the administration sticking to their goals.

On that note - I find it strange that billions of dollars of equipment are being left behind during the withdraw, when it should have been evacuated out first.

Anyone want to lay odds that ...
#1 - Someone decided to leave it behind to arm the Taliban and others out to increase fighting/risk, so the next administration has a reason to go back?
#2 - Local ground commanders were bribed to do it that way?

[Jub]

While the withdrawl has all the appearances of bad managing 'groundside', it's good to see the administration sticking to their goals.

On that note - I find it strange that billions of dollars of equipment are being left behind during the withdraw, when it should have been evacuated out first.

Anyone want to lay odds that ...
#1 - Someone decided to leave it behind to arm the Taliban and others out to increase fighting/risk, so the next administration has a reason to go back?
#2 - Local ground commanders were bribed to do it that way?

#3 - It took years to get all that gear in and there's no practical way to get it out again. Those tanks, guns, cases of ammo, rations, etc. were never intended to come back home because that's not how the logistical chain is set up.

[Solauren]

Which is absolutely stupid in of itself....

[loomer]

Suicide bombing at the airport, supposedly by Daesh.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

While the withdrawl has all the appearances of bad managing 'groundside', it's good to see the administration sticking to their goals.

On that note - I find it strange that billions of dollars of equipment are being left behind during the withdraw, when it should have been evacuated out first.

Anyone want to lay odds that ...
#1 - Someone decided to leave it behind to arm the Taliban and others out to increase fighting/risk, so the next administration has a reason to go back?
#2 - Local ground commanders were bribed to do it that way?

#3 - It took years to get all that gear in and there's no practical way to get it out again. Those tanks, guns, cases of ammo, rations, etc. were never intended to come back home because that's not how the logistical chain is set up.

One small question. Are we talking about equipment that was used and controlled by American troops? Or equipment under Afghan control? The former would certainly seem odd, since one would think they would take their equipment with them as the troop numbers were drawn down; or else destroy it. That, or they just gave it to Afghans, making the latter option technically true.

The claims I'm encountering in online news sources put the number of American 'armoured vehicles' in Taliban hands at about two thousand. This sounds impressive, but it actually isn't. The most common 'armoured vehicle' in Aghan service was the Humvee, of which over eight thousand were apparently delivered. There were also a few hundred ex-Soviet APCs and such, though I can't vouch for spare parts stocks. Artillery and tanks are also said to be comparatively rare; with maybe fifty or so ex-Soviet tanks left over from those days.

So, we're still looking at the Taliban being a motorised infantry force, albeit with slightly better motorisation. Also, the vast majority of Afghan aircraft were transport aircraft or helicopters, with at least some having escaped to Uzbekistan. Opinion I've encountered online is that aircraft in Taliban hands are effectively useless, due to lack of pilots, maintenance crews, and parts.

[TimothyC]

US election rules allow dead people to be voted into office in certain circumstances and it does happen from time to time (usually immediately followed by a governor appointing a replacement until another election is held)

Broomstick, this only applies to Senators. The constitution requires that vacancies in the house of representatives be filled by election.

When vacancies happen in the Representation from any State, the Executive Authority thereof shall issue Writs of Election to fill such Vacancies.

[Straha]

While the withdrawl has all the appearances of bad managing 'groundside', it's good to see the administration sticking to their goals.

On that note - I find it strange that billions of dollars of equipment are being left behind during the withdraw, when it should have been evacuated out first.

Anyone want to lay odds that ...
#1 - Someone decided to leave it behind to arm the Taliban and others out to increase fighting/risk, so the next administration has a reason to go back?
#2 - Local ground commanders were bribed to do it that way?

#3 - It took years to get all that gear in and there's no practical way to get it out again. Those tanks, guns, cases of ammo, rations, etc. were never intended to come back home because that's not how the logistical chain is set up.

Almost all of that stuff was given to the Afghani defense forces. So the principle of international law of 'no givesies backsies' (Loomer, please feel free to correct me if I misnamed it) definitely applies.

Even if the US wanted to get that stuff out there's really no easy path to do it. The US military and intelligence community believed, genuinely I think, that the Afghani government could hold out for six months. If the US starts trying to seize all the guns and ammo that doesn't just keep the Afghanis from being able to defend themselves but sends a clear signal that the US thinks they cannot fight the Taliban and win, in which case why should the Afghanis try to fight the Taliban at all? It's a rock and a hard place issue, do you leave the material knowing that it will probably be seized by the Taliban or do you take it away knowing it will kill all resistance to the Taliban? Not a decision I envy.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

While the withdrawl has all the appearances of bad managing 'groundside', it's good to see the administration sticking to their goals.

On that note - I find it strange that billions of dollars of equipment are being left behind during the withdraw, when it should have been evacuated out first.

Anyone want to lay odds that ...
#1 - Someone decided to leave it behind to arm the Taliban and others out to increase fighting/risk, so the next administration has a reason to go back?
#2 - Local ground commanders were bribed to do it that way?

#3 - It took years to get all that gear in and there's no practical way to get it out again. Those tanks, guns, cases of ammo, rations, etc. were never intended to come back home because that's not how the logistical chain is set up.

Almost all of that stuff was given to the Afghani defense forces. So the principle of international law of 'no givesies backsies' (Loomer, please feel free to correct me if I misnamed it) definitely applies.

Even if the US wanted to get that stuff out there's really no easy path to do it. The US military and intelligence community believed, genuinely I think, that the Afghani government could hold out for six months. If the US starts trying to seize all the guns and ammo that doesn't just keep the Afghanis from being able to defend themselves but sends a clear signal that the US thinks they cannot fight the Taliban and win, in which case why should the Afghanis try to fight the Taliban at all? It's a rock and a hard place issue, do you leave the material knowing that it will probably be seized by the Taliban or do you take it away knowing it will kill all resistance to the Taliban? Not a decision I envy.

Well they went with the former and the end result is what we have today. Question is, how long will the Taliban be able to use the American materiel before logistics issues render it useless? Ammo will be easier to come by, but does Afghanistan have a source of JP-8? Without that all those vehicles become nothing more than static defence emplacements. And the problem of spare parts as those vehicles and guns wear out.

[Broomstick]

Well they went with the former and the end result is what we have today. Question is, how long will the Taliban be able to use the American materiel before logistics issues render it useless? Ammo will be easier to come by, but does Afghanistan have a source of JP-8? Without that all those vehicles become nothing more than static defence emplacements. And the problem of spare parts as those vehicles and guns wear out.

Interesting question.

As it happens, not all of the items left behind were American - the US military in fact procured helicopters (MI-17's) from Russia and gave them to the Afghans, as well as some light attack airplanes from Brazil (A-29 Super Turcanos). From what I can tell, I think this was done with the notion that the Afghans would be more able to purchase needed items to maintain them and would not be completely dependent on American supply lines... which would indicate to me that someone fairly high up in the decision making process expected the Afghans to be able to stand on their own two feet.

So while they are unlikely to be able to maintain Blackhawk helicopters the MI-17's and the Turcanos might remain in operation quite a bit longer. The M1151 HMMWV's has diesel engines - not sure how fussy those particular diesels are about fuel, but standard diesel fuel is going to be easier to obtain than JP-8.

Spare parts? Cannibalize some equipment to keep the rest of it going.

[Solauren]

The other thing with spare parts is - how long will it take them to find a supplier of a close 'knock-off' for the parts?

Yeah, specialized fuel is a problem, but spare parts, so long as they don't require highly specialized equipment or material, they'd be creatable.

[GuppyShark]

Or purchasable from the world's largest manufacturing hub, conveniently next door.

[Solauren]

Or purchasable from the world's largest manufacturing hub, conveniently next door.

I was trying to imply that with " supplier of a close 'knock-off'". Haven't you ever searched on E-bay and seen knock-offs?

[LadyTevar]

Updates on Kubul Bombing

Summary
- US-led evacuations from Kabul airport in Afghanistan enter final stage, following a devastating bomb attack
- The Pentagon corrects its assessment to say there was one suicide bomb attack at the airport on Thursday, not two separate blasts
- The attack targeted people queuing to flee the country after Taliban militants returned to power
- Ninety people have been killed - mostly Afghan civilians and 13 US military personnel
- US President Joe Biden has promised to hunt down the perpetrators, jihadist group IS-K
- The UK says it is entering the final stages of its evacuation, with 1,000 leaving today
- The evacuations - and foreign troop withdrawals - are designed to be completed by 31 August - a deadline agreed with the Taliban
- The White House says more than 111,000 people have been evacuated since the airlift began nearly two weeks ago

[Rogue 9]

ABC News

US special operations vets carry out daring mission to save Afghan allies

At least 13 service members were killed in an attack in Kabul Thursday.
ByJames Gordon Meek
August 27, 2021, 5:00 AM

With the Taliban growing more violent and adding checkpoints near Kabul's airport, an all-volunteer group of American veterans of the Afghan war launched a final daring mission on Wednesday night dubbed the "Pineapple Express" to shepherd hundreds of at-risk Afghan elite forces and their families to safety, members of the group told ABC News.

Moving after nightfall in near-pitch black darkness and extremely dangerous conditions, the group said it worked unofficially in tandem with the United States military and U.S. embassy to move people, sometimes one person at a time, or in pairs, but rarely more than a small bunch, inside the wire of the U.S. military-controlled side of Hamid Karzai International Airport.

The Pineapple Express' mission was underway Thursday when the attack occurred in Kabul. Two suicide bombers believed to have been ISIS fighters killed at least 13 U.S. service members -- 10 U.S. Marines, a Navy corpsman, an Army soldier and another service member -- and wounded 15 other service members, according to U.S. officials.

There were wounded among the Pineapple Express travelers from the blast, and members of the group said they were assessing whether unaccounted-for Afghans they were helping had been killed.

As of Thursday morning, the group said it had brought as many as 500 Afghan special operators, assets and enablers and their families into the airport in Kabul overnight, handing them each over to the protective custody of the U.S. military.

That number added to more than 130 others over the past 10 days who had been smuggled into the airport encircled by Taliban fighters since the capital fell to the extremists on Aug. 16 by Task Force Pineapple, an ad hoc groups of current and former U.S. special operators, aid workers, intelligence officers and others with experience in Afghanistan who banded together to save as many Afghan allies as they could.

"Dozens of high-risk individuals, families with small children, orphans, and pregnant women, were secretly moved through the streets of Kabul throughout the night and up to just seconds before ISIS detonated a bomb into the huddled mass of Afghans seeking safety and freedom," Army Lt. Col. Scott Mann, a retired Green Beret commander who led the private rescue effort, told ABC News.

After succeeding with helping dozens of Afghan commandos and interpreters get into the protective ring of the airport created by the 6,000 American troops President Joe Biden dispatched to the airfield after Kabul fell to the Taliban, the group initiated an ambitious ground operation this week aided by U.S. troops inside. The objective was to move individuals and families through the cover of darkness on the "Pineapple Express." The week-long effort and Wednesday's operation were observed by ABC News under the agreement of secrecy while the heart-pounding movements unfolded.

The operation carried out Wednesday night was an element of "Task Force Pineapple," an informal group whose mission began as a frantic effort on Aug. 15 to get one former Afghan commando who had served with Mann into the Kabul airport as he was being hunted by the Taliban who were texting him death threats.

They knew he had worked with U.S. Special Forces and the elite SEAL Team Six for a dozen years, targeting Taliban leadership, and was, therefore, a high-value target for them, sources told ABC News.

Two months ago, this commando told ABC News he had narrowly escaped a tiny outpost in northern Afghanistan that was later overrun while awaiting his U.S. special immigrant visa to be approved.

The effort since he was saved in a harrowing effort, along with his family of six, reached a crescendo this week with dozens of covert movements coordinated virtually on Wednesday by more than 50 people in an encrypted chat room, which Mann described as a night full of dramatic scenes rivaling a "Jason Bourne" thriller unfolding every 10 minutes.

The small groups of Afghans repeatedly encountered Taliban foot soldiers who they said beat them but never checked identity papers that might have revealed them as operators who spent two decades killing Taliban leadership. All carried U.S. visas, pending visa applications or new applications prepared by members of Task Force Pineapple, they told ABC News.

"This Herculean effort couldn't have been done without the unofficial heroes inside the airfield who defied their orders to not help beyond the airport perimeter, by wading into sewage canals and pulling in these targeted people who were flashing pineapples on their phones," Mann said.

With the uniformed U.S. military unable to venture outside the airport's perimeter to collect Americans and Afghans who've sought U.S. protection for their past joint service, they instead provided overwatch and awaited coordinated movements by an informal Pineapple Express ground team that included “conductors” led by former Green Beret Capt. Zac Lois, known as the underground railroad's “engineer.”

The Afghan operators, assets, interpreters and their families were known as “passengers” and they were being guided remotely by “shepherds," who are, in most cases their loyal former U.S. special operations forces and CIA comrades and commanders, according to chat room communications viewed by ABC News.

There was one engineer, a few conductors, as well as people who were performing intelligence-gathering duties. The intelligence was pooled in the encrypted chat group in real-time and included guiding people on maps to GPS pin drops at rally points for them to stage in the shadows and in hiding until summoned by a conductor wearing a green chem light, ABC News observed in the encrypted chat.

Once summoned, passengers would hold up their smartphones with a graphic of yellow pineapples on a pink field.

Before the deadly ISIS-K bombing on Thursday near the Abbey Gate of the airport known as HKIA, intelligence warnings were issued about possible improvised explosive device attacks by ISIS-K. Around 8 p.m. EST Wednesday, the shepherds reported in the chatroom, which was viewed by ABC News, one by one that their passenger groups maneuvering discreetly in the darkness toward rally points had suddenly gone dark and were unreachable on their cell phones.

"We have lost comms with several of our teams," texted Jason Redman, a combat-wounded former Navy SEAL and author, who was shepherding Afghans he knew.

There was concern the Taliban had dropped the cell towers -- but another Task Force Pineapple member, a Green Beret, reported that he learned the U.S. military had employed cell phone jammers to counter the IED threat at Abbey gate. Within an hour, most had reestablished communications with the "passengers" and the slow, deliberate movements of each group resumed under the ticking clock of sunrise in Kabul, ABC News observed in the encrypted chat.

"The whole night was a roller-coaster ride. People were so terrified in that chaotic environment. These people were so exhausted, I kept trying to put myself in their shoes," Redman said.

Looking back at an effort that saved at least, by their count, 630 Afghan lives, Redman expressed deep frustration "that our own government didn't do this. We did what we should do, as Americans."

Many of the Afghans arrived near Abbey Gate and waded through a sewage-choked canal toward a U.S. soldier wearing red sunglasses to identify himself. They waved their phones with the pineapples and were scooped up and brought inside the wire to safety. Others were brought in by an Army Ranger wearing a modified American flag patch with the Ranger Regiment emblem, sources told ABC News.

Lois said the Task Force Pineapple was able to accomplish a truly historic event, by evacuating hundreds of personnel over the last week.

"That is an astounding number for an organization that was only assembled days before the start of operations and most of its members had never met each other in person," Lois told ABC News.

Lois said he modeled his slow and steady system of maneuvering the Afghan families in the darkness after Harriet Tubman’s Underground Railroad for American slave escapees.

The Afghan passengers represented the span of the two-decade war there, and participants included Army Maj. Jim Gant, a retired Green Beret known as "Lawrence of Afghanistan," who was the subject of a 2014 "Nightline" investigation.

"I have been involved in some of the most incredible missions and operations that a special forces guy could be a part of, and I have never been a part of anything more incredible than this," Gant told ABC News. "The bravery and courage and commitment of my brothers and sisters in the Pineapple community was greater than the U.S. commitment on the battlefield."

"I just want to get my people out," he added.

Dan O'Shea, a retired SEAL commander, said he successfully helped his own group, which included a U.S. citizen who served as an operative and his Afghan father and brother in a nail-biting crucible as they walked on foot to one entry point after another for hours. They dodged Taliban checkpoints and patrols in order to get inside the U.S. side of the airport and on a plane out of Kabul.

"He was not willing to let his father and his brother behind; even it meant he would die. He refused to leave his family," O'Shea, a former counterinsurgency adviser in Afghanistan, told ABC News. "Leaving a man behind is not in our SEAL ethos. Many Afghans have a stronger vision of our democratic values than many Americans do."

It all began with trying to save one Afghan Commando, whose special immigrant visa was never finalized.

During an intense night last week involving coordination between Mann and another Green Beret, an intelligence officer, former aid workers and a staffer for Florida Republican and Green Beret officer Rep. Mike Waltz, the ad hoc team enlisted the aid of a sleepless U.S. Embassy officer inside the airport. He helped Marines at a gate to identify the former Afghan commando, who was caught in the throngs of civilians outside the airport and who said he saw two civilians knocked to the ground and killed.

"Two people died next to me -- 1 foot away," he told ABC News from outside the airport that night, as he tried for hours to reach an entry control point manned by U.S. Marines a short distance away.

With Taliban fighters mixing into the crowd of thousands and firing their AK-47s above the masses, the former elite commando was finally pulled into the U.S. security perimeter, where he shouted the password "Pineapple!" to American troops at the checkpoint. The password has since changed, the sources said.

Two days later, the group of his American friends and comrades also helped get his family inside the airport to join him with the aid of the same U.S. embassy officer.

Mann said the group of friends decided to keep going by saving his family and hundreds more of his elite forces comrades on the run from the Taliban.

Former deputy assistant secretary of defense and ABC News analyst Mick Mulroy is part of both Task Force Pineapple and Task Force Dunkirk, who are assisting former Afghan comrades.

"They never wavered. I and many of my friends are here today because of their bravery in battle. We owe them all effort to get them out and honor our word," Mulroy said.

[Broomstick]

Updates on Kubul Bombing

Summary
- US-led evacuations from Kabul airport in Afghanistan enter final stage, following a devastating bomb attack
- The Pentagon corrects its assessment to say there was one suicide bomb attack at the airport on Thursday, not two separate blasts
- The attack targeted people queuing to flee the country after Taliban militants returned to power
- Ninety people have been killed - mostly Afghan civilians and 13 US military personnel
- US President Joe Biden has promised to hunt down the perpetrators, jihadist group IS-K
- The UK says it is entering the final stages of its evacuation, with 1,000 leaving today
- The evacuations - and foreign troop withdrawals - are designed to be completed by 31 August - a deadline agreed with the Taliban
- The White House says more than 111,000 people have been evacuated since the airlift began nearly two weeks ago

Total speculation on my part, and maybe prompted by some disgust of the hyperventilating of US warhawks who would love nothing better than to spill more blood and treasure...

... but maybe the US wasn't the target here? Three times as many Taliban soldiers died as US ones (my source: Al Jazeera). ISIS-K is pissed as hell that even such minimal cooperation as has been occurring between the Taliban and the US exists and views the Taliban as betraying jihad. And also the two groups are rivals, not allies or friends.Then, too, the Taliban seem to be angling to be recognized as the official government of Afghanistan, as well as the party of law and order, and in control. Nothing like a successful suicide bombing to put that rumor to rest, right? And killing all those disloyal Afghans trying to flee to the West would be a bonus, right? ISIS-K wants to be the legitimate government of Afghanistan, too. So, as much as some of my countrymen love to be the center of attention and think the universe revolves around them, I'm wondering if the main target was the Taliban, secondary were all the "collaborators" (or even the reverse) and the US deaths were more like collateral damage. Which is still horrific, of course. And would be ironic given how much collateral damage the US has caused over the years.

Or I could be totally wrong on all that.

[Bedlam]

I suspect it's something of a Twofer for ISIS-K, any attack they can take against Western Forces is good in their book and if they also kill / humiliate the new Taliban government as the same time well that's just gravy. If things go perfectly for them then America and the Taliban blame each other and maybe get into a shooting war again which results in damage or destruction of their local enemy while probably pushing more people towards their cause.

[Solauren]

Yeah, chance to kill Americans, chance to kill Taliban, and the possibility to screw with the evacuation and make it look like the Taliban is responsible? (They failed in that last part, obviously).

Damn right someone that wants to start fighting the Taliban already would take it.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

I agree on the whole.

ISK's presence is relevant at a broader level, precisely because of its rivalry with the Taliban. According to at least some reports, a lot of ISK members are actually ex-Taliban, who switched sides because they disagreed with the negotiations. If that's remotely true, and ISK is a viable alternative for disgruntled Taliban hardliners, then things could get very awkward very quickly; especially if the Taliban leadership really is trying to take a moderate approach.

If this does come to a full-scale bust-up between the Taliban and ISK, then the Taliban could well be ruined. Unless they clobber ISK quickly and decisively, and don't lose half their own followers in the process, then their credibility as a serious government - such as it is - will be damaged. This could - at least I personally believe - provoke more widespread resistance.

[Highlord Laan]

I hate to say I fucking called it, but I fucking called it.

All the way back in 2002, I straight out told my Senior class in the final presentation project of the year that Afghanistan was going to be a 30-year occupation and rebuilding effort, re-educating the populace, constructing infrastructure. It was going to be post-WWII Germany all over again.

Also said that the american people were too stupid, blind, greedy, lazy and generally pathetic to do it. That we'd lose interest quickly in favor of stupid celerity news, sports, and that our so-called leaders wouldn't support it outside of getting political gotcha points. This was reinforced when Shrub the Lesser and his dad's old Iron Contra buddies decided to go for Iraq.

So, 20 years on, the uhmurrikun (not American) people lost interest 19 years ago, the worthless scum in DC have actually managed to sink lower than expected, and here we are.

I fucking called it.

[GuppyShark]

I feel you, Laan. Sometimes the "I told you so" satisfaction doesn't compensate for the depressing reality of the situation you predicted.