ST vs. DS1

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-03-27 07:52am

Damn, I don't even remember there's a wall there. Well, they can launch the photorp as late / as close to the port as possible then pull up, while the photorp delays its deceleration until it's even closer to the port. That's still launching from closer than the X-wings did.

Darth Negation · Post by **Darth Negation** » 2003-03-27 02:56pm

Do a suicide run.

"WOOOHOly shi-"
:BOOOOOM:

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-03-27 09:43pm

Yeah, that would work too

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-03-29 12:23am

Does anyone have any objections to this proposal? If not, should Darth Wong make some amendments to the Battles page?

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-04-02 04:30am

Bumpage

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2003-04-02 05:51am

JodoForce wrote:Damn, I don't even remember there's a wall there. Well, they can launch the photorp as late / as close to the port as possible then pull up, while the photorp delays its deceleration until it's even closer to the port. That's still launching from closer than the X-wings did.

To do what you are proposing, the torp has to overcome it's own forward (or should I say reverse) momentum quickly enough so it stops before it crashes into the wall behind the exhaust port, and late enough that it passes the exhaust port before it stops.

Both of the above requires that the torps being programmed to fire their thrusters at exactly the right time, then orientate themselves in the right direction, and adjust for any necessary turns to fly down into the exhaust port. None of this can be done by remote control (jamming), and the torp's target recognition has to be able to pick the exhaust port through that same jamming.

Meanwhile, with the torp sitting there in relative stop, Vader or his wingman (or one of the trench turrets) could easily fire a few shots at the torp and fry it (any missed shots will throw debris and energy off the wall).

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2003-04-02 08:07pm

Darth Negation wrote:

Do a suicide run.

"WOOOHOly shi-"
:BOOOOOM:

But would the Feds be willing to smash into the wall for victory?

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-04-02 11:24pm

To do what you are proposing, the torp has to overcome it's own forward (or should I say reverse) momentum quickly enough so it stops before it crashes into the wall behind the exhaust port, and late enough that it passes the exhaust port before it stops.

1. It doesn't have to pass the exhaust port, it just needs to be on top of the exhaust port

2. The X-wings' protorps faced pretty much the same problems and the solution was to have a fixed motion program, and it would solve the problem here too.

3. You can have a Tac fighter behind the photorp to shield the torp. In fact, as there would be multiple fighters making attempts at the same run, this would naturally happen.

4. The travel distance of the photorp is much shorter than that for the photorp and the travel time should be comparable. (shorter distance but lower velocities) In the TIE fighter's eye the protorp is just as stationary as the photorp (as both are travelling forward) so if they can shoot down the photorp they could have shot down the protorp too.

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-04-02 11:25pm

As I described at the top of this page, this doesn't have to be a suicide run

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2003-04-03 06:17pm

JodoForce wrote:1. It doesn't have to pass the exhaust port, it just needs to be on top of the exhaust port -snip

I don't think I quite get what you mean. Why don't you draw a labelled diagram (just something simple using Paint or whatever) to show us what you mean by your scenario?

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-04-04 01:53am

Indeed Paint is the only program I have on this computer

Descriptions:
Black trail: photorp trail
Red trail: trail of the fighter as it leaves the trench (not too accurate)
Blue trails: to be explained in (3)
1. The fighter launches the photorp some distance away from the exhaust port (the closer the better of course; but limited at the speed at which the fighter can turn away from the approaching wall). The velocity of the photorp at launch is towards the right, while it points towards the left and is ready to fire its thruster to slow itself down.

2. The fighter turns away from the wall.

3. The photorp has fired its thruster to slow itself down to a predetermined speed (slow) at a predetermined distance from the the port (short). Presuming that it cannot change thrust vector instantaneously, this allows it to turn smoothly into the port. The blue lines trailing out from the black photorp trail indicate the changing thrust vector as the photorp is turning into the port. In the later parts of its turn its forward velocity should have been all but completely cancelled; when it's pointing straight down the forward velocity has been completely replaced by downward velocity.

The main problem here is that both the displacement and velocity at the turning point has to be finely calibrated. This would be a non-problem if the photorp can detect its own velocity and displacement relative to the port opening and adjust its turn-in accordingly. Assuming that displacement and velocity information is only available from the launching fighter, the thrust slow-down and turn-in program would have to be calculated at the time of launch, in which case fire from TIE fighters could throw the photorp off course. However since they are fighting in space, the photorp can't be knocked significantly off course unless debris from the trench scores a direct hit on the photorp.

4. The photorp continues to travel down to blow up the reactor.[/img]

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2003-04-04 09:36am

JodoForce wrote:http://www.csis.hku.hk/~sfyeung/DSRun.gifIndeed Paint is the only program I have on this computer

Descriptions:
Black trail: photorp trail
Red trail: trail of the fighter as it leaves the trench (not too accurate)
Blue trails: to be explained in (3)

In your diagram, assuming that the torp was fired from the aft launcher and the torp is trying to angle up the shot while it's still trying to decelerate, unless the torps are designed to be able to strafe (FPS style) then at point 3 it really should first be moving away from the exhaust port until it can stop completely, and not angling in towards it. Remember that in space, inertia will keep something in motion until something is done to counteract the motion.

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-04-04 11:00am

I thought I explained it pretty well in the text

While the torp is turning into the exhaust port its thrust is eliminating the last traces of its rightward momentum; as its thrust changes direction its leftward component is reduced until it's gone when it's pointing straight down, so its deceleration in the rightward direction is reduced until it's gone when it's pointing straight down. Still there is deceleration in the right direction from the beginning to the end of the turn in, say this deceleration is x. The torp can thus start its turn-in when its rightward velocity is x and expect its forward momentum to be cancelled at the end of the turn in.

All clear?

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2003-04-04 11:04am

all I can say is this is much more compicated than the Rebel's plan. The only problem is, does the Torpedo have the sensors and memory to handle the information needed. wouldn't it be simplier to have the rear launcher fire as the fighter is pulling up? This way it is already facing almost in the right direction already and has to make a much smaller turn to get in.

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-04-04 11:17am

YOU would do well to think twice about what you said about inertia and motion in space. If as you say the torp overshoots the port before stopping, then starts accelerating towards the port again, it would have to turn its head to the RIGHT to cancel its leftward momentum before it can travel straight down to the port.

The movement of starfighters and starships as depicted in SW and ST are wrong, too--if the main power thrusters are really at the back. If an X-wing wants to turn down, the fastest way for it to do so would have been to

(1) Change its heading by 90 degrees downwards using its turning thrusters(all the while still going forward)
(2) Fire its main power thrusters to start the turn
(3) As its heading changes, keep turning the fighter's heading downwards using its turning thrusters, to keep its thrust vector perpendicular to its current movement vector.
(4) When the turn is completed the X-wing would be pointing towards where it came from, and perpendicular to its travel direction (down). It has to rotate 90 degrees to re-orient itself towards its travel direction.

In this turning profile it introduces most of its downward momentum during the first part of the turn and cancels most of its forward momentum during the end part of the turn. Indeed for a craft in space turning 90 degrees is equal to stopping in its current direction and accelerating from standing in another direction...

For the photorp I modify this flight profile to cancel most of its forward momentum during the first part of the turn and introduce most of the downward momentum in the end part. This is done to get a sharper turn, to avoid hitting the edge of the port. Think harder and you'll realize my program for the torp is correct.

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-04-04 11:24am

(I was referring to LOTF in the last post)

@Isolder
The protorp manoeuvre calls for turning into the port at a programmed distance from the launch point. However if the protorp does not have its own sensors it would also have required distance AND velocity information at launch to determine the correct turn-in time. This is not essentially different from my scenario. Also my scenario calls for launching as close to the port as possible and thus would reduce error caused by long distance.

I would think your plan works too and is simpler, but there are worries that the Fed fighters would be shot to a million pieces by fighters and batteries going up. I don't see how this must be so, seeing as the X-wings had to fly into the trench and fly back out to retry the run and were still in one piece. But I made up this plan to placate the naysayers

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-04-04 11:27am

Well, I guess the take-home message is that IF the Fed fighters got that far in, there are plenty of ways to deliver a torp into the port, and the x0000000000G turn a protorp is capable of is nice to have in tactical combat but not necessary for this job.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2003-04-04 11:29am

If the fighter has already pulled up than the fighter has already greatly reduced the forward momentum. the torpedo would be fired so it is already going down. BTW I know how Physics works, I'm a Enginnering Major. letting the fighter cancel much of the forward with the fighter allows for the torpedo more fuel for fine adjusting as it goes in sinc it needs far less rear momuntum to slow down.

If the fighter is going up it is no longer traveling as fast forward by default.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-04-04 11:36am

Isolder74 wrote:all I can say is this is much more compicated than the Rebel's plan. The only problem is, does the Torpedo have the sensors and memory to handle the information needed. wouldn't it be simplier to have the rear launcher fire as the fighter is pulling up? This way it is already facing almost in the right direction already and has to make a much smaller turn to get in.

X-Wings don't have a rear launcher.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2003-04-04 11:41am

Durandal wrote:
Isolder74 wrote:all I can say is this is much more compicated than the Rebel's plan. The only problem is, does the Torpedo have the sensors and memory to handle the information needed. wouldn't it be simplier to have the rear launcher fire as the fighter is pulling up? This way it is already facing almost in the right direction already and has to make a much smaller turn to get in.
X-Wings don't have a rear launcher.

Yes but the federation fighters in question do

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-04-04 11:44am

BTW I know how Physics works

I know you know

@Durandal: we're talking about how a Fed fighter can get a torpedo into the DS's exhaust port without requiring the torp to make a x00000000g turn

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2003-04-04 05:51pm

The best rule for making such plans is KISS or Keep It Simple Stupid. The rule works for war of designing a bridge, Microchip, etc.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2003-04-04 05:53pm

The best rule for making such plans is KISS or Keep It Simple Stupid. The rule works for war or designing a bridge, Microchip, etc.

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2003-04-04 10:20pm

Oops... Looks like I did screw up one part of the flight path prediction. JodoForce, I conceed that it is possible to plant a torp in following your scenario, though I'm still not quite convinced that you can get a UFP torp to go along the flight path.

BTW, with the aft firing straight down the exhaust port scenario, there's the problem of attack run speed. Too slow you'd either and get gunned down by the turrets or Vader & Co, too fast you'd either crash into the wall or simply won't get enough of a window to launch the torp.

And ST fighters have a lot larger target profiles than SW fighters. It's a lot easier hitting box shapes than skeletal shapes.

Dmaster · Post by **Dmaster** » 2003-04-05 07:58pm

Lets back out a lilo bit. As the fighters approach DS1 (whatever starfighter they use.) They have to slow down to a low speed to pass the DS1 shield. If not, splat! The battle end before it even begin. Even if they slow down, zap! Over kills... Well, I dunno by how much but does it really matter? And don't forget those tractor beams. It grabs onto the Falcon before it even reconize DS1 as a battle station. The DS1 can use the tractor beams like arms, grab the fighters and use em like clubs. How can the fighter get to execute the trench-run-disease if they can't get to the trench in the first place? Sorry, it takes one step at a time.