Apple TV's Foundation

[FaxModem1]

I personally rolled my eyes at the "Apple is the company of the future" line. But this could be good. I don't really know where they're going to take this.

[Adam Reynolds]

I personally rolled my eyes at the "Apple is the company of the future" line. But this could be good. I don't really know where they're going to take this.

I found it amusing that the Youtube comments originally were discussing the same thing, that Apple would more likely be a villain in Asimov stories, before Apple turned them off.

[Zaune]

What I want to know is, how are they going to deal with the fact that the concept of Psychohistory has aged like milk?

[bilateralrope]

What I want to know is, how are they going to deal with the fact that the concept of Psychohistory has aged like milk?

I'm hoping they just play it straight. Have it work in their series exactly like it worked in the novels.

From what I remember about Foundation, psychohistory is too big of a plot device to do much else with if you're wanting to make a faithful adaptation.

[Gunhead]

What I want to know is, how are they going to deal with the fact that the concept of Psychohistory has aged like milk?

Reveal it's bullshit like they did in the book? They did that right.. it's been ages since I read it and don't have a copy conveniently placed so I could check. I'm not holding my breath on this one, even if it does have Jared Harris in it who is consistently great at anything he does.
Foundation is a book kinda like Dune, I think a scifi aficionado should read it but it's underlying ideas are more interesting than the actual story.

-Gunhead

[Tribble]

What I want to know is, how are they going to deal with the fact that the concept of Psychohistory has aged like milk?

Reveal it's bullshit like they did in the book? They did that right.. it's been ages since I read it and don't have a copy conveniently placed so I could check. I'm not holding my breath on this one, even if it does have Jared Harris in it who is consistently great at anything he does.
Foundation is a book kinda like Dune, I think a scifi aficionado should read it but it's underlying ideas are more interesting than the actual story.

-Gunhead

Hopefully this.

Psychohistory was always more of a plot device so that Asimov could tell a sci-fi tale of the fall of the Roman Empire and attempts to save it.

That being said, I felt he did a decent job discussing the practicalities of such a scheme and it faults.

IIRC the main conditions of psychohistory were:

The population size had to be sufficiently large
The population must not know the results of the predictions
There must not be a significant and unforeseen change in culture / technology
Individuals' behaviour must overall more or less cancel each other out, so that no individual can single-handily disrupt the results
Human interactions with each other and the environment must fundamentally remain the same

And the final reveal:

that humans are the only sentient intelligence in the galaxy

Unfortunately this last one was never fully explored as Asimov didn't know where to go with it, but was a huge cliff-hanger when I read it the first time.

The first few stories explore what psychohistory is and what it can theoretically do so that the reader understands the idea... while the rest of the series essentially deconstructs the whole thing, with each of the above conditions being eventually broken (the last one being heavily implied, hence the cliff hanger).

It's made pretty clear by the end that psychohistory and Seldon's plan would never work without constant intervention (of the mind-controlling kind where people's behaviour can be literally forced into following it). And even then it's not a desirable outcome.

[Marikina]

[Batman]

I find it 'very' hard to mesh that with the Foundation storyline as actually written, especially the apparent time travel bit at the beginning

[Marikina]

I find it 'very' hard to mesh that with the Foundation storyline as actually written, especially the apparent time travel bit at the beginning

What do you mean by that last bit?

[Batman]

A very much grown up Seldon watching his own birth?

[Marikina]

A very much grown up Seldon watching his own birth?

That wasn't Seldon, that was Brother Dusk. In this adaptation the ruling body of the Empire is comprised of clones of the original Emperor Cleon.

[Batman]

'Strange. Watching yourself being born' is hard to interpret any OTHER way.
And assuming your information is correct it is curiously absent from the trailer so people watching the trailer wouldn't KNOW that

[Marikina]

'Strange. Watching yourself being born' is hard to interpret any OTHER way.
And assuming your information is correct it is curiously absent from the trailer so people watching the trailer wouldn't KNOW that

I don't see what's confusing. Immediately after Dusk says he's watching his youngest self, we flash through all of the clones from infancy to oldest incarnation (Dusk), and later Brother Day proclaims that their genetic dynasty has ruled the Empire for centuries.

[bilateralrope]

'Strange. Watching yourself being born' is hard to interpret any OTHER way.
And assuming your information is correct it is curiously absent from the trailer so people watching the trailer wouldn't KNOW that

I don't remember much about the Foundation novels. But babies in tubes shouts cloning vats to me and the talk of genetic dynasty reinforces that.

The only question I'm left with is if " Watching yourself being born'" refers to some form of memory transfer or just a different perspective on how they view clones.

[Zaune]

That sounds more Dune than Foundation to me.

[Tribble]

'Strange. Watching yourself being born' is hard to interpret any OTHER way.
And assuming your information is correct it is curiously absent from the trailer so people watching the trailer wouldn't KNOW that

I don't remember much about the Foundation novels. But babies in tubes shouts cloning vats to me and the talk of genetic dynasty reinforces that.

The only question I'm left with is if " Watching yourself being born'" refers to some form of memory transfer or just a different perspective on how they view clones.

And after Seldon realizes that he cannot convince the Trantorian Council that the planet is doomed, he helps conceive the first freeborn infant on the planet in centuries, steals the Codex, puts them both in a pod and sends them to a faraway planet with a yellow sun in order to be the Foundation for a new Empire.

Meanwhile the Emperor declares that HE! WILL! FIND! THEM! and starts searching for Terminus.

[Tribble]

*sigh*

Cleon was actually very supportive of Seldon’s work and did his best to help him succeed. And while not being particularly smart or capable he did genuinely want the Empire to do well under his reign.

His unexpected and preventable murder by someone seemingly unimportant not only accelerated the fall but also drove home to Seldon the limits of his work and the need to have a backup / corrective force to keep things on track.

But here he’s just… a clone dynasty trying to cling onto power, by the looks of it?

[NecronLord]

So I've been watching this for three episodes now and I'm not super impressed. It's got some decent visuals, but we have seen Coruscant on the big screen now, and a much plainer visualization of Trantor can't really impress us too much.
Spoiler

The Cleons are fools, the first two episodes have very little happen when a space elevator on Trantor is destroyed by a terrorist attack that they know has been set up to frame two outworld planets. They know that this is a setup, but publically slaughter the ambassadors of both worlds and attack them with atomics to appease the public. Which is... a stupid idea, as the moment the other outworld planets find out that the Emperors knew Anaceron and Themis weren't the perpetrators, it makes it plain that they need to secede at once for their own safety as the Empire will attack even compliant worlds.

[bilateralrope]

NecronLord, I don't think you're wrong about how predictable the outcome of what the Cleon's did in the first two episodes. But I'm not sure that the alternative would be any better for the empire.
Spoiler

When a shooting dispute between two planets that the empire only cared about because their officials got caught in the crossfire, it's clear that the empire doesn't give a fuck about what worlds are up to as long as they pay whatever taxes the empire demands.

When you've got an empire so diverse that there are planets that don't use base ten, but the rulers think they can read hidden messages into gifts given to them, it makes me think that the rulers have no clue what they are doing. That their decrees will come across as unpredictable to everyone else.

To me it looks like the only thing holding the empire together is the threat of overwhelming force should someone step out of line. An empire that can only hold as long as it seems strong. Letting the terrorist attack go unanswered would make the empire look weak and others start looking to exploit that weakness. Burning Anaceron and Themis makes people afraid of the empires "peace" and they start looking for ways to make sure their planet isn't next. Either way, this event will be seen as when the fall began. Though I suspect the rot has been going on for a while.

Also we have Seldon's predictions that say the empire can not be saved.

[NecronLord]

You're not wrong, either. There's really no good option.

Episode 3:
Spoiler

Other than of course, being able to actually reveal and bring to justice the perpetrators, which given that in episode 3 we can see that there's no good answer to a terrorist attack, though I would say outright attacking Anacheron and Themis is worse than doing nothing. Perhaps this is merely a systemic failure of the Empire's intelligence gathering apparatus, which appears to be Eto Demerzel. Perhaps the Emperors have become over-reliant on her, despite her great ability.

You're right that the stunning diversity of the Empire makes it look like any effort by a diplomatic department that is three people (albeit one of them is a very, or if one reads the books, extremely advanced robot) and a child to analyze their motives farcical.

[LadyTevar]

Spoiler

Gee. Giant Terrorist Attack, and the Powers That Be attack two places that are really aren't involved. Yeah... Afghanistan anyone?

[bilateralrope]

Anacheron and Themis highlight what I see as two systematic failures of the empire.
Spoiler

There was nothing equivalent to a court system the planets could go to that would resolve their dispute unless they are unlucky enough to catch the attention of the idiots in charge. Even a corrupt court could have ended the dispute over the asteroid before it crossed the border. Probably without bloodshed because the court ruling would come with the stamp of imperial authority. It makes me wonder how many other disputes like this exist across the galaxy that the empire never hears about. How much of the bureaucracy that we would expect a state to have that this empire lacks.

A reliance on brutality. Take that interrogation of the body mod clinic for example. Imperial forces come in loud, giving the people there time to start deleting records. Then they give one member of the clinic a choice between taking her secrets to the grave if she just stays defiant for a few more seconds or saying what she knows and hoping that these imperial forces will let her live. If you were in her position, what would it take for you to believe that there was any way you'd be walking out of that room ?

This is an empire that makes the bureaucracy of the WH40K Imperium look competent.

[NecronLord]

Honestly, yeah, the Inquisition would have done a better job than Eto Demerzel for sure. And yeah, I agree with LedyTevar, the symbolism is anvilicious.

[bilateralrope]

I was comparing them to the Administratum.

Comparing the Foundation Empire's spycraft with an organisation that regularly uses and deals with all sorts of psychic stuff doesn't seem fair.

[NecronLord]

I was comparing them to the Administratum.

Comparing the Foundation Empire's spycraft with an organisation that regularly uses and deals with all sorts of psychic stuff doesn't seem fair.

Oh I was using them as an example of an inept secret police.

If anything going by the books Spoiler

Eto Demerzel is probably a mentalist at this time, though it wasn't in the earlier Foundation books because an affection for telepathic stuff was added to the series later, albeit as a prequel, IIRC.