Anyone reading the comics these days?

[Solauren]

In ANH, it's made clear that if the Death Star destroys the Yavin moon base, the Rebellion will be wiped out and the Empire will win the war. Now they could, post-victory, go around zapping planets and moons for the fun of it, but that would be over the top, even for PG-rated space Nazis.

You misunderstand the Empire then. It was not about destruction, it was about control.

That's what the Death Star was about. The FEAR of it being used on a planet would keep them obedient, and thereby under control.

That's part of the reason they destroyed Aldeeraan. Yes, it was to get Leia to talk. However, it was also to send a message. After all, Aldeeraan was a peaceful world, without weapons, and known and regarded galaxy wide.

It was paradise.

And for ONE of it's citizens daring to oppose the Empire, it was destroyed.

What planetary government would co-operate with rebels, or allow disedents in any form, if the Empire could, and was known to, wipe out planets because one person defied them?

Hell, would you even allow it, knowing your entire family, and everyone and everything you ever cared about would be wiped out, because someone on the bus said 'fuck the Emperor'?

[Darth Yan]

That's making the assumption that the battles, death and destruction in the disney verse is worse than having lived under the Empire's fascist regime, backed up by the Death Star for the same period of time.

... which seems like a big assumption to me. Though granted the OT doesn't go into their day-to-day oppression a lot.

In ANH, it's made clear that if the Death Star destroys the Yavin moon base, the Rebellion will be wiped out and the Empire will win the war. Now they could, post-victory, go around zapping planets and moons for the fun of it, but that would be over the top, even for PG-rated space Nazis. For example, Vader could have easily blown away Cloud City using "conventional" weapons, or had his stormtroopers massacre the citizens after Lando defied him and helped everyone escape, but didn't.

In the Disney GFFA, an entire system gets blown away while the New Coke Empire has once again taken over almost the entire galaxy. I would think the loss of life from an entire system being destroyed would be worse than the death toll from two planets, plus whatever SS-style massacres the older Empire would have carried out for the 30+ years after Yavin.

I'm not arguing that the Galactic Empire wasn't evil. I'm arguing that thanks to Disney/Abrams, the struggle against them is made to look futile.

In both Legends AND Disney they were committing a fuck ton of atrocities even prior to the Death Star (The Bad batch regularly shows brutal war crimes committed against innocent people, as does the New Dawn novel (which also shows that the empire is corrupt on a greater scale than the old republic)). It would be a dystopian nightmare to endure.

And while I know you don't like Legends they went into gory detail about all the atrocities the Empire committed (one guy literally had giant ships that scoured worlds of alien species in holocaust style genocides for god's sake).

And the New Empire DOES fall in the end so it's still worth it. If Palpatine was in charge of it it was more an attempt to reassert his iron grip....which means defying him was still worth it.

[Batman]

How exactly do we know the First Order has taken over 'almost the entire galaxy'? At least from the movies all we know is they had the means to take out systems from a distance thanks to Starkiller Base, and they severely outgunned the Resistance. There seemed to be plenty independent/indifferent planets. We know next to nothing about the galactopolitical layout of the ST galaxy. If they control 'most of the galaxy' how come Palps needed his Planet Killer Star Destroyers, needed to hide them, and where did all those ships that came in for the final battle (that we saw virtually nothing of) come from?

[Elfdart]

From the opening crawl of The Last Jedi:

"The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy."

[Batman]

Which is so vague as to be meaningless

[bilateralrope]

In both Legends AND Disney they were committing a fuck ton of atrocities even prior to the Death Star (The Bad batch regularly shows brutal war crimes committed against innocent people, as does the New Dawn novel (which also shows that the empire is corrupt on a greater scale than the old republic)). It would be a dystopian nightmare to endure.

Don't forget about the Clone Wars having been orchestrated by Palpatine to create the Empire. I'd say causing a galactic war while controlling both sides of it should be pretty high up on the atrocity list.

[Darth Yan]

That's making the assumption that the battles, death and destruction in the disney verse is worse than having lived under the Empire's fascist regime, backed up by the Death Star for the same period of time.

... which seems like a big assumption to me. Though granted the OT doesn't go into their day-to-day oppression a lot.

In ANH, it's made clear that if the Death Star destroys the Yavin moon base, the Rebellion will be wiped out and the Empire will win the war. Now they could, post-victory, go around zapping planets and moons for the fun of it, but that would be over the top, even for PG-rated space Nazis. For example, Vader could have easily blown away Cloud City using "conventional" weapons, or had his stormtroopers massacre the citizens after Lando defied him and helped everyone escape, but didn't.

In the Disney GFFA, an entire system gets blown away while the New Coke Empire has once again taken over almost the entire galaxy. I would think the loss of life from an entire system being destroyed would be worse than the death toll from two planets, plus whatever SS-style massacres the older Empire would have carried out for the 30+ years after Yavin.

I'm not arguing that the Galactic Empire wasn't evil. I'm arguing that thanks to Disney/Abrams, the struggle against them is made to look futile.

Vader was super bummed over Luke rejecting him; hell he didn't even strangle Piett despite that being his go to method for failure. The empire commits a LOT of war crimes prior to the rebellion

[Elfdart]

Let me put it this way:

Imagine if, thirty years after WW2, a group of Nazis hiding out in South America had CRUSHED the UN and reduced the former Allies to a few dozen people in an old Cessna*. Put aside the absurdity of such a scenario, and disregard the pure hackery of it. In a few days all the accomplishments of the WW2 allies is reduced to Jack and Shit and the Allies are in worse shape than they were in the darkest period of the war.

Jesus Christ that's depressing.



* As I noted a few years ago, this is like The Sum Of All Fears, only instead of just blowing up Baltimore, they blow up almost the entire military/political apparatus of the US, UK, Canada, France and Russia. This doesn't make the villains look fearsome, it makes the good guys look like a bunch of hapless fumbledicks.

[Crazedwraith]

No shit, that's depressing. No one's arguing against that. We're are arguing against the concept the galaxy would be better off if they'd won in the first place.

[Solauren]

Let me put it this way:

Imagine if, thirty years after WW2, a group of Nazis hiding out in South America had CRUSHED the UN and reduced the former Allies to a few dozen people in an old Cessna*. Put aside the absurdity of such a scenario, and disregard the pure hackery of it. In a few days all the accomplishments of the WW2 allies is reduced to Jack and Shit and the Allies are in worse shape than they were in the darkest period of the war.

Jesus Christ that's depressing.



* As I noted a few years ago, this is like The Sum Of All Fears, only instead of just blowing up Baltimore, they blow up almost the entire military/political apparatus of the US, UK, Canada, France and Russia. This doesn't make the villains look fearsome, it makes the good guys look like a bunch of hapless fumbledicks.

Unless it was because they managed to put several satelites armed with mass driver weapons into orbit.

[Darth Yan]

Let me put it this way:

Imagine if, thirty years after WW2, a group of Nazis hiding out in South America had CRUSHED the UN and reduced the former Allies to a few dozen people in an old Cessna*. Put aside the absurdity of such a scenario, and disregard the pure hackery of it. In a few days all the accomplishments of the WW2 allies is reduced to Jack and Shit and the Allies are in worse shape than they were in the darkest period of the war.

Jesus Christ that's depressing.



* As I noted a few years ago, this is like The Sum Of All Fears, only instead of just blowing up Baltimore, they blow up almost the entire military/political apparatus of the US, UK, Canada, France and Russia. This doesn't make the villains look fearsome, it makes the good guys look like a bunch of hapless fumbledicks.

Except even then it doesn't mean the heroes were wrong to resist. The First Order are basically reactionaries who want their power back and they should have had it taken away from them in the first place. Refusing to do so because they might get murderous is silly.

And as much as I don't like ROS the villains ARE defeated and things may finally start looking up.

And there are always things like the Mandalorian.

Edit: This perfectly sums up why Last Jedi falls flat
https://wordbasket.blogspot.com/2019/12 ... -jedi.html

Even in Empire the heroes have victories. By contrast Last Jedi is the people getting punched in the dick over and over, and there's this air of "suffering is necessary and enobling".

[Darth Yan]

Has anyone read the war of the bounty hunters arc? Qi'ra shows up again as the primary antagonist and she's getting her own series (Crimson Reign). Generally the Bounty hunter stuff (and Aphra) have been pretty cool. They take old Legends material and refashion it into something new (Beilart Valance and the Tagge families being the best).

[Sidewinder]

Has anyone read the war of the bounty hunters arc? Qi'ra shows up again as the primary antagonist and she's getting her own series (Crimson Reign).

Solo failed to entertain me, or make me interested in anything from that bore, e.g., Qi'ra.

Generally the Bounty hunter stuff (and Aphra) have been pretty cool.

The first two volumes of Doctor Aphra were entertaining, but Marvel quickly overused her, making her seem dumber with every appearance, as she can never stop staying out of trouble- similar to the badass decay Darth Vader was subjected to, when Dark Horse Comics shoehorned him into every comic book, making the Sith Lord weaker with every appearance, in order to justify how his enemies survived- and making me lose interest in the comics as a direct consequence.

[MKSheppard]

That's part of the reason they destroyed Aldeeraan. Yes, it was to get Leia to talk. However, it was also to send a message. After all, Aldeeraan was a peaceful world, without weapons, and known and regarded galaxy wide.

It was paradise.

And for ONE of it's citizens daring to oppose the Empire, it was destroyed.

Um, I'd like to point out that Alderaan had substantial covert and overt support for the Rebellion. Do I need to remind you that the Tantive IV in ANH was an Alderaanian Consular Starship?

VADER
What have you done with those plans?

REBEL OFFICER
We intercepted no transmissions...This is a consular ship. We're on a diplomatic mission.

VADER
If this is a consular ship... where is the Ambassador?

Rogue One makes it even worse, by having the Tantive IV literally blast out of the wreckage of the Raddus barefaced in the open.

[MKSheppard]

The first two volumes of Doctor Aphra were entertaining, but Marvel quickly overused her, making her seem dumber with every appearance, as she can never stop staying out of trouble- similar to the badass decay Darth Vader was subjected to

I have to agree here. Aphra's gone from an interesting character to a played out one; all because of over monetisation.

This is why I think comic books should be pre-emptively banned from shared universes or limited to yearly annual issues.

Because if you have to sell 12 issues a month at 24 pages a month, that's 280+ pages you have to find SOMETHING to fill them with; and you basically have to bang out every issue in about two weeks minimum, which doesn't leave a lot of time for deep plots.

[Solauren]

That's part of the reason they destroyed Aldeeraan. Yes, it was to get Leia to talk. However, it was also to send a message. After all, Aldeeraan was a peaceful world, without weapons, and known and regarded galaxy wide.

It was paradise.

And for ONE of it's citizens daring to oppose the Empire, it was destroyed.

Um, I'd like to point out that Alderaan had substantial covert and overt support for the Rebellion. Do I need to remind you that the Tantive IV in ANH was an Alderaanian Consular Starship?

Rogue One makes it even worse, by having the Tantive IV literally blast out of the wreckage of the Raddus barefaced in the open.

Yes, very true.
However, that's not the point.
The only Aldeeraan that they could prove was actively supporting the Rebellion, in a-I'm-not-doing-mercenary-work-way was Princess Leia, as she was the commander of the Tantive IV. The rest of the crew were just 'following orders'. Anyone else they captured, could easily claim 'I'm not with Aldeeran, I defected/left'. Leia was Aldeeraan's senator. She can't defect without stepping down first.

All the common person probably knew about Aldeeraan was it was paradise, and got blown up because a few people on it sided against the Empire.
That's all that would matter.

[Solauren]

The first two volumes of Doctor Aphra were entertaining, but Marvel quickly overused her, making her seem dumber with every appearance, as she can never stop staying out of trouble- similar to the badass decay Darth Vader was subjected to

I have to agree here. Aphra's gone from an interesting character to a played out one; all because of over monetisation.

This is why I think comic books should be pre-emptively banned from shared universes or limited to yearly annual issues.

Because if you have to sell 12 issues a month at 24 pages a month, that's 280+ pages you have to find SOMETHING to fill them with; and you basically have to bang out every issue in about two weeks minimum, which doesn't leave a lot of time for deep plots.

Anyone that is expecting deep plot development from comics might as well be expecting money to fall from heaven.

[MKSheppard]

Anyone that is expecting deep plot development from comics might as well be expecting money to fall from heaven.

Here's the thing.

First Lucasfilm, then Disney, have repeated the concept of a "shared universe"; in that what happens in the games, comics etc is Class II Canon -- i.e. if it doesn't explicitly contradict Class I Canon (Movies) then it's canon.

Comics, by their mere existence, will quickly contaminate any shared universe by the "need to publish"; whereas an A++ game takes two years to develop, plenty of time to at least make the plot not completely stupid.

[Solauren]

Comics, by their mere existence, will quickly contaminate any shared universe by the "need to publish"; whereas an A++ game takes two years to develop, plenty of time to at least make the plot not completely stupid.

Bullshit.

All you have to do is pre-plot out the comic books for several years. Get the plot right, and then publish. Same as a game. (You have to get the majority of a games plot figured out before doing the coding, because graphic design, dialogue recording, etc, is time consuming, and you don't want to waste that time.)

The problem is, Disney is not making Marvel do that. If anything, Marvel is half-assing it, at best. I honestly think all the real talent @ Marvel is focused on the M.C.U. They're pre-plotting that, because of the money involved. By comparison, comics cost nothing.

Now, alot of highly successful Manga use the pre-plotting approach, and many are very successful. For example - Demon Slayer.

[Darth Yan]

That's part of the reason they destroyed Aldeeraan. Yes, it was to get Leia to talk. However, it was also to send a message. After all, Aldeeraan was a peaceful world, without weapons, and known and regarded galaxy wide.

It was paradise.

And for ONE of it's citizens daring to oppose the Empire, it was destroyed.

Um, I'd like to point out that Alderaan had substantial covert and overt support for the Rebellion. Do I need to remind you that the Tantive IV in ANH was an Alderaanian Consular Starship?

VADER
What have you done with those plans?

REBEL OFFICER
We intercepted no transmissions...This is a consular ship. We're on a diplomatic mission.

VADER
If this is a consular ship... where is the Ambassador?

Rogue One makes it even worse, by having the Tantive IV literally blast out of the wreckage of the Raddus barefaced in the open.

Most of them weren’t active traitors or spies. That makes it disproportionate. Tarkin’s words show he just wanted to test his toy

[MKSheppard]

However, that's not the point.

Actually, that IS the point.

Let's go back to Episode I and the Republic Cruiser that Qui Gon and OB1 arrive to negotiate with the Trade Federation.

It's clearly an ancestor of the Tantive IV, and it's painted brilliant red over almost all of it's surfaces; similar to how Tantive IV has a red stripe running down her sides.

I'm using Wookiepedia for this -- because we're just shitposting -- this is supposedly backed up by the Ultimate Star Wars Visual Dictionary:

Painted with a striking red color scheme, the cruiser's hue declared the ship's diplomatic immunity, as red marked a starship as neutral in the Republic. It also indicated that the vessel was conducting a mission on behalf of the Galactic Senate, the Supreme Chancellor, or the Jedi Order.

Current canon has the Tantive IV around during the early/mid clone wars, assigned specifically as the personal senatorial ship of Senator Bail Organa of Alderaan; and after the Clone Wars, it became sort of the Royal House of Alderaan's personal craft that they used to do various duties.

[MKSheppard]

If anything, Marvel is half-assing it, at best. I honestly think all the real talent @ Marvel is focused on the M.C.U. They're pre-plotting that, because of the money involved. By comparison, comics cost nothing.

There's also another thing involved -- it takes about 3~ years (or more) to produce an A+ quality film (Iron Man started development at Marvel in '05).

By contrast, you can crank out dozens of miniseries, one shots and "reboots" of comic series in the same time, leading to "Badass Decay"; and since everything is "canon"; it leads to absurdities like this from one of the Aphra comics:





Where the authors/artists kind of forget that they're playing in the Star Wars sandbox and kind of break the fourth wall there -- deadpoolesque self-parody should be kept out of SW, IMO.

[Crazedwraith]

The good thing is: canon is a thing that you only have to give a shit about if you want to give a shit about it.

Don't like the silly comics, don't read them. Experience the bits you like, ignore the bits you don't, literally no one will stop you. I guarantee the next film or tv series or whatever will not depend on you having read Dr Aphra. Even if they reference it will be written in a way understandable to newcomers.

[Galvatron]

So apparently...

Spoiler

...the Knights of Ren worked with (or for) Qi'ra and Crimson Dawn around the time just prior to ROTJ.

[RogueIce]

Seriously, do they have to tie everything into each other? You have a whole damn galaxy, use it!