Did the Death Star have a hidden purpose?

[MKSheppard]

This is kind of shower thoughts level, but bear this out with me.

There are strong hints that the creation and construction of the two Death Stars must have been linked with the Force, IOW; it wasn't just about the Tarkin Doctrine and creating a mobile siege engine that could destroy heavily shielded worlds.

We can suss this out from three bits of information:

1.) Palpatine authorizes construction of the Second Death Star, and it's substantially complete by ROTJ. Why do that, when you could have built its equivalent weight in Star Destroyers, especially since the destruction of the Death Star I shows that the entire concept has weaknesses.

2.) Palpatine had a personal Royal Tower on both Death Stars -- the first was destroyed before he could take occupancy. (The implication of this is that Vader was present on the first Death Star as a "minder" to make sure that Tarkin didn't make a play at declaring himself Emperor Tarkin I with the Death Star's power.)

3.) Obi Wan's famous: "I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced." line.

From those bits, I think that the Death Star was a Sith version of the dedication of the Sixth Great Temple of Tenochtitlan (where the Aztecs sacrified about 84,000 people over four days).

Remember that with a conventional base delta zero, it still takes about 90 minutes (1 orbit) to slag an undefended world. A more heavily defended world like Alderaan might take several days to overheat the planetary shields with the combined fire of thousands of ships before it collapses.

The Death Star's big thing is that it can kill a massive amount of people almost instantly. I don't think it's out of possibilities that Palpatine planned to use the Death Star to channel and focus massive amounts of Force energies from so much concentrated death for..."abilities some consider to be unnatural."

[Batman]

This is kind of shower thoughts level, but bear this out with me.
There are strong hints that the creation and construction of the two Death Stars must have been linked with the Force, IOW; it wasn't just about the Tarkin Doctrine and creating a mobile siege engine that could destroy heavily shielded worlds.
We can suss this out from three bits of information:
1.) Palpatine authorizes construction of the Second Death Star, and it's substantially complete by ROTJ. Why do that, when you could have built its equivalent weight in Star Destroyers, especially since the destruction of the Death Star I shows that the entire concept has weaknesses.

The equivalent weight in Star Destroyers likely 'could' have dealt with planetary shields. Eventually. Being able to casually ignore them is much more impressive. The first Death Star died to one small and virtually impossible to exploit weakness (one, thanks to Rogue One, deliberately built in by the creator), the second died due to being incomplete and Palpatine being an overconfident moron. How does any of that reflect on the 'concept' of a Death Star?

3.) Obi Wan's famous: "I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced." line.
From those bits, I think that the Death Star was a Sith version of the dedication of the Sixth Great Temple of Tenochtitlan (where the Aztecs sacrified about 84,000 people over four days).

Or maybe the Death Star was just a quicker and more impressive way of beating planetary shields and Kenobi was just reacting to billions of sentient beings (which kinda are connected to the Force) dying

The Death Star's big thing is that it can kill a massive amount of people almost instantly. I don't think it's out of possibilities that Palpatine planned to use the Death Star to channel and focus massive amounts of Force energies from so much concentrated death for..."abilities some consider to be unnatural."

The Death Star's big thing is unlike any other tool in the Empire's arsenal it can go through Alderaan quality planetary shields in essentially no time.

[bilateralrope]

2.) Palpatine had a personal Royal Tower on both Death Stars -- the first was destroyed before he could take occupancy. (The implication of this is that Vader was present on the first Death Star as a "minder" to make sure that Tarkin didn't make a play at declaring himself Emperor Tarkin I with the Death Star's power.)

Sounds like he was planning to use the Death Star as his throne. Maybe so he could directly witness planets going boom, maybe because that gives more control over who can get close to him, maybe so he can directly intervene if anyone aboard it is disloyal.

That aspect of control might also be one reason against an equivalent mass of Star Destroyers. Every Star Destroyer requires a crew who might be disloyal (especially during a BDZ) and their ability to spread out complicates any response to that.

[Vendetta]

The Death Star was the biggest and most obvious symbol of Imperial power. It was a permanent reminder that the might of the Empire could go anywhere and threaten anyone all throughout the galaxy forever, even beyond its ability to blow up planets it was a giant fleet base and quite possibly had things like shipyard and spacedock facilities, it was big enough to be completely self sufficient if needed.

It was the perfect place to rule from. An unassailable fortress, an unstoppable projection of power, and so of course the Emperor wanted to tie it to himself personally.

[Solauren]

The purpose of the Death Star was to blow up planets, terrify the populace into submissive obedience, and to stroke Palpatine's ego. Nothing more.

It took two failures before he went 'fuck it, build me of Star Destroyers that can do the same thing'.

[Straha]

I think there was a discussion of this on the discord.

Canonically:

- Palpatine has always been interested in the gaining of power, but never once been interested in the execution of power.
- Palpatine lives on Coruscant, the busiest most noisy planet in the galaxy and one which has thousands of years of bureaucracy built up, bureaucracy of which he is now at the head.
- Palpatine seemingly has done everything he can to duck being consistent about the structure of the Empire, the ranks and performance of the military, or any other governance. (See: Every fifth thread here being some version of "This makes no sense in Universe, how can we pretzel it so that there is some consistency on behalf of the Empire?") Palpatine has no interest in making a tax more fair or presiding in judgment over which system gets an asteroid, he just likes the big chair.
- The Death Star makes no sense in Universe as a threat. The Empire can already glass a planet if it wants, the extra oomph of blowing it up adds nothing.
- Finally, the Death Star throne room makes no sense as a site of governance. Impossible to hold a meeting in. Too small for grand convocations. No guardrails, so not useful for a stream of visitors.

Answer:

Palpatine thought the Death Star was a fucking rad idea, and Tarkin sold it to him on the aesthetics of a super cool throne room where he could hide from bureaucrats and occasionally push a man down an infinite well to their death. Once he heard that he was sold.

[Galvatron]

- The Death Star makes no sense in Universe as a threat. The Empire can already glass a planet if it wants, the extra oomph of blowing it up adds nothing.

Planetary shields are a thing.

[MKSheppard]

Planetary shields are a thing.

This. It takes a lot of serious concerted effort to punch a hole through planetary shields; whether through brute force (enough ships) or trickery (taking weeks to scan the planetary shield to find a weak spot to punch torpedo sphere torpedoes through).

Either option basically mean the planetary shield has done it's job through virtual attrition:

1.) You have to withdraw enough ships from across the galaxy to blockade that system effectively and get enough firepower (boom boom) to punch through. That weakens your strategic position across the galaxy.

2.) Time -- if you have torpedo sphere(s), it still takes time for them to find the weak spots and even then, it's not a guaranteed thing -- more like 70% possible thing.

In either case, your assets are tied up and you look weak politically to the rest of the galaxy. And that's just for one world. If a cluster of large enough worlds tells you to fuck off (like say Kuat and it's satellite colonies), you're screwed.

[MKSheppard]

- Palpatine seemingly has done everything he can to duck being consistent about the structure of the Empire, the ranks and performance of the military, or any other governance. (See: Every fifth thread here being some version of "This makes no sense in Universe, how can we pretzel it so that there is some consistency on behalf of the Empire?") Palpatine has no interest in making a tax more fair or presiding in judgment over which system gets an asteroid, he just likes the big chair.

Ah, but see, Palpatine is the latest in a long line of SITH RULERS across the history of SW. He's had time to see what brought down previous Sith Empires. Plus, unlike all previous SITH RULERS, he did not come from the warrior cult of lightsaber duels. He came from the political side of things -- his crowning moments of awesome in both trilogies are:

1.) Manipulating everything to get himself installed as Chancellor.

2.) Running enough of the Clone Wars to set the stage for the Empire -- he was able to get the galaxy to declare him Emperor through their version of the enabling act, rather than landing on Coruscant and killing half of everyone with his legions of doom and executing their leaders with his lightsaber; like previous Sith Rulers no doubt did.

3.) In dealing with his apprentices, he was never one for the direct action -- he carefully cleaned out his apprentice stable via sending Maul into a no-win position (TPM), having Anakin kill Dooku to remove that loose end, and then decades later manipulating events to set up the pieces to try and turn Luke and have him strike down his father, removing THAT loose end.

Finally, the Death Star throne room makes no sense as a site of governance. Impossible to hold a meeting in. Too small for grand convocations. No guardrails, so not useful for a stream of visitors.

The throne room on the Death Star makes sense if there is some dark side advantage to be gained from being so close to so many mass deaths -- remember that ObiWan was stunned "I just felt a great disturbance..." when they were light years away from Alderaan.

So what would the force shocks have been on the Throne Room?

That's what I mean about how Palpatine is a canny operator -- he mixes both the Secular and Religious (Sith) worlds -- tries to get benefits in both worlds, rather than ignoring one for the other.

Someone who manipulated his way to the top of galactic politics after becoming the Senator of a backwater sector would have a solid grasp of the political ramifications of blowing Alderaan up; so there must have been some solid good reasons for him to do it, rather than: "Lol it's because I'm a sith hahhah"

[MKSheppard]

See: Every fifth thread here being some version of "This makes no sense in Universe, how can we pretzel it so that there is some consistency on behalf of the Empire?"

That's just the thing. Supposedly, there's supposedly the LFL Story Group, led by Pablo Hidalgo, who should at least be enforcing some consistency in the universe. We shouldn't have to pretzel almost everything (see: the entire Sequel Trilogy by Disney).

[Batman]

The Death Star however makes Sense in universe. No more month or years long sieges to bring down planetary shields, you can blow through them at a moment's notice.

[Ralin]

- The Death Star makes no sense in Universe as a threat. The Empire can already glass a planet if it wants, the extra oomph of blowing it up adds nothing.

Planetary shields are a thing.

The Death Star however makes Sense in universe. No more month or years long sieges to bring down planetary shields, you can blow through them at a moment's notice.

Pretty sure Straha was trolling with that one. And hoping someone would take the bait so he can double down.

[Gandalf]

Palpatine thought the Death Star was a fucking rad idea, and Tarkin sold it to him on the aesthetics of a super cool throne room where he could hide from bureaucrats and occasionally push a man down an infinite well to their death. Once he heard that he was sold.

You could have a Yes, Minister scene, where their Sir Humphrey is plotting to get the Emperor away from the capital, because they've lost their old oversights and are about to have the time of their lives. The one thing holding them back is the guy who scrambled for power and doesn't wholly seem to know what to do with it. That guy's no fun.

Once the Death Star is finished, it's of course best that the Emperor stays on board in his fancy personal space, in case the top brass of defect. A rogue ISD can be dealt with by thousands of other ISDs, but the pride of the Emperor needs the Emperor himself for oversight because there will be no stopping it.

Once that's done, the Emperor and his cronies are everyone else's problem. No more of Vader's shitty puns and workplace violence.

[Straha]

- The Death Star makes no sense in Universe as a threat. The Empire can already glass a planet if it wants, the extra oomph of blowing it up adds nothing.

Planetary shields are a thing.

The Death Star however makes Sense in universe. No more month or years long sieges to bring down planetary shields, you can blow through them at a moment's notice.

Pretty sure Straha was trolling with that one. And hoping someone would take the bait so he can double down.

Not trolling.

Not to go back to the sacred texts of the old site but it's been demonstrated that ISDs can engage in massive firepower output that can effectively overwhelm planetary shields, and given the immense power of the Imperial fleet and the ability to control space and deploy resources thereof on planets actually obliterating a planet is absolutely unnecessary compared to, say, dropping asteroids on them.

This is to say nothing of the immense resource investment. From construction to staffing to food resources. An ISD has ~40k crew, a Death Star almost two million. The logistical tail of the Death Star is immense and irrational, and the gap could easily be filled in by pumping those resources into Executors with complementing fleets.

As a tool of terror it's such vast overkill as to be counterproductive. As a tool of political control it is incredibly cumbersome and the unique solutions it brings too overwhelming to be of use. As Sheev's bitchin' hot ride, it makes a load of sense.

Planetary shields are a thing.

This. It takes a lot of serious concerted effort to punch a hole through planetary shields; whether through brute force (enough ships) or trickery (taking weeks to scan the planetary shield to find a weak spot to punch torpedo sphere torpedoes through).

>snip<

In either case, your assets are tied up and you look weak politically to the rest of the galaxy. And that's just for one world. If a cluster of large enough worlds tells you to fuck off (like say Kuat and it's satellite colonies), you're screwed.

1. The Empire has the ships, the troops, and the resources to do all this and, importantly, has the political control ahead of time to make most of this a non-starter.

2. RE: Assets being tied up, the Death Star makes that problem worse not better. If a cluster of worlds tell the Empire to fuck off with the Death Star the Empire has to bring it to each planet and blow them up one by one while it hopes that the rest of the Empire, and the troops they've taken therefrom, remain loyal. As a tool of political control it becomes the single point of failure as opposed to investing those same resources into multiple fleets which solves neatly for all of the above.

Ah, but see, Palpatine is the latest in a long line of SITH RULERS across the history of SW. He's had time to see what brought down previous Sith Empires. Plus, unlike all previous SITH RULERS, he did not come from the warrior cult of lightsaber duels. He came from the political side of things...>snip<

Right, and at no point do we ever see Palpatine ruling. He's the coyote who wants the roadrunner. Palpy isn't from the "I RULE BY DINT OF SITH POWER TO MAKE THE UNIVERSE A DARK PLACE" school, he's from the "I climbed that mountain because it was there and had a blast doing it." school. We see genuine emotion from Palpatine briefly when he is concerned for his padawan, and consistently whenever he is killing people, and every time he kills people he is having a blast doing it.

As for the "This is a religious tool of mass murder." idea. I'm not opposed to it, but again there seem to be such easier ways to do it and in the EU we never see this sort of calamity being engineered, which you think the Emperor would be doing on a regular basis? I'm unconvinced.

[Straha]

See: Every fifth thread here being some version of "This makes no sense in Universe, how can we pretzel it so that there is some consistency on behalf of the Empire?"

That's just the thing. Supposedly, there's supposedly the LFL Story Group, led by Pablo Hidalgo, who should at least be enforcing some consistency in the universe. We shouldn't have to pretzel almost everything (see: the entire Sequel Trilogy by Disney).

The Pretzelling begins with ESB and continues until the present. With as many contradictory statements and sources it's impossible to ensure consistency and, frankly, in a universe that's supposed to be a modern retelling of fairy tales of yore it defeats the purpose. It's a fun exercise, but the second uniformity is demanded from all parts of the universe shit will fall apart. (See: Insignia and ranks, where that is an utterly impossible demand.)

[MKSheppard]

Not to go back to the sacred texts of the old site but it's been demonstrated that ISDs can engage in massive firepower output that can effectively overwhelm planetary shields, and given the immense power of the Imperial fleet and the ability to control space and deploy resources thereof on planets actually obliterating a planet is absolutely unnecessary compared to, say, dropping asteroids on them.

Veers:
My lord, the fleet has moved out of lightspeed. Com-Scan has detected an energy field protecting an area around the sixth planet of the Hoth system. The field is strong enough to deflect any bombardment.

Death Squadron was 5 x ISDs and 1 x Executor. That's a lot of firepower.

This is to say nothing of the immense resource investment. From construction to staffing to food resources. An ISD has ~40k crew, a Death Star almost two million. The logistical tail of the Death Star is immense and irrational, and the gap could easily be filled in by pumping those resources into Executors with complementing fleets.

25,000 x ISDs @ 37,000 crew each = 925 million men on just those ships. The Death Star's "canon" complement of 2 million is only about fifty ISDs; or two sector groups' worth. The Empire has thousands of sectors at their disposal.

As a tool of terror it's such vast overkill as to be counterproductive. As a tool of political control it is incredibly cumbersome and the unique solutions it brings too overwhelming to be of use. As Sheev's bitchin' hot ride, it makes a load of sense.

Or perhaps it resulted from Sheev's in depth studies of previous Sith Empires and their downfalls? If planetary shields are a thing; then galactic "turtling" likely played a big role in the downfall of previous Sith Empires; by throwing roadblocks into things long enough for the Jedi to strike down whatever version of the Sith had gained power.

So it seems to me that Sheev's deep thoughts were that in order for him to succeed where previous Sith had failed in building an enduring Empire, he had to solve two problems:

1.) The JEDI. (Order 66 and the Clones) -- because the Jedi were instrumental in the destruction of all prior Sith Empires.

2.) The Turtling Problem that Planetary Shields pose (Death Star) -- I think this is one reason there was a huge interval in time between ROTS and ANH (nearly 20 years); that was also matched by a slow retrograde increase in Imperial power and "bad acts" -- Palpatine knew that people would ultimately rebel as he got closer to his ultimate vision of the Empire; so he needed to have contingencies in place before he went to the next phase of his plan.

Right, and at no point do we ever see Palpatine ruling.

Do you really want an entire SW Disney+ series devoted to Palpatine dealing with the Imperial Bureaucracy for 20 years?

We see genuine emotion from Palpatine briefly when he is concerned for his padawan, and consistently whenever he is killing people, and every time he kills people he is having a blast doing it.

UNLIMITED POWER.

Palpatine's big trope is that he's the Evil Space Wizard dude; but that 20 year interval between ROTS and ANH with little if any overt acts against the Empire, along with the fact that the Empire remained loyal to him until his death at Endor (4 years after ANH); shows that he had to be a competent political operator at the least.

As for the "This is a religious tool of mass murder." idea. I'm not opposed to it, but again there seem to be such easier ways to do it and in the EU we never see this sort of calamity being engineered, which you think the Emperor would be doing on a regular basis? I'm unconvinced.

That's why I believe it was a "bonus" secondary objective achieved on the way to the primary objective of "end turtling behind shields".

[Ralin]

Veers:
My lord, the fleet has moved out of lightspeed. Com-Scan has detected an energy field protecting an area around the sixth planet of the Hoth system. The field is strong enough to deflect any bombardment.

Death Squadron was 5 x ISDs and 1 x Executor. That's a lot of firepower.

And that's a secret base set up rebels with limited resources. A wealthy world or collection of worlds can presumably do a lot more. A planet has a lot of space to build whatever reactors they use to generate power.

[Straha]

Not to go back to the sacred texts of the old site but it's been demonstrated that ISDs can engage in massive firepower output that can effectively overwhelm planetary shields, and given the immense power of the Imperial fleet and the ability to control space and deploy resources thereof on planets actually obliterating a planet is absolutely unnecessary compared to, say, dropping asteroids on them.

Veers:
My lord, the fleet has moved out of lightspeed. Com-Scan has detected an energy field protecting an area around the sixth planet of the Hoth system. The field is strong enough to deflect any bombardment.

Death Squadron was 5 x ISDs and 1 x Executor. That's a lot of firepower.

Hoth isn't really a good example of this for a whole slew of reasons.

Most importantly, the Empire doesn't want to kill all the rebels. Vader and the Emperor definitely want Luke alive, seemingly want Leia and other leadership alive (though whether or not that's simply as a tool to capture Luke is never made clear), and don't act in ways consistent where the goal is to obliterate the opposition.

If they wanted to actually devastate the rebellion in universe they could:

- Follow the plot of the movie to the point where they blow up the shield generators, pick up the forces on the ground, and then bombard the planet from space.
- Same as above but instead of bombardment have Tie Bombers/Fighters roll in and engage in mass devastation.
- Target the vast amount of the planet that isn't shielded, including the areas that are incredibly close to the rebel base (the empire is able to land and advance rather quickly), glass the surface, and trust the environmental and climactic devastation kill the Rebels while maintaining the blockade.
- Go to the nearby asteroid belt, pick up a few asteroids, and start dropping it on the planet for similar effect + greater kinetic force.
- Holdo the planet with a drone ship.

Also, once the shield was down the Empire could have been a lot more aggressive towards the fleeing rebels still on the ground. Instead, it lets significant numbers of them continue to organize and flee unharrassed, not even bombarding freighters and mobilizing fighters on the ground.

That the Empire doesn't do this after the shield is down only has two explanations. The first being that they can't engage in either widescale planetary bombardment to more pinpoint targeting of freighters and Ion cannon emplacements on the ground, which is contradicted by the canon of the EU. The other explanation is that they simply don't want to, which is consistent with everything seen on screen.

In that context, Veer's declaration makes more sense as "The firepower necessary to overcome the shield would be so devastating as to fail the remit of the rest of the mission, so it's off the table." which would add to Vader's frustration of having tools he could use to pin the rebels down taken off the table. It would also make Ozzel's decision to jump into orbit make more sense as someone who doesn't understand why a ground invasion and the taking of rebels alive matters.

This also fits with the ANH discussions of the Death Star which make clear its firepower is less than that of the whole of the imperial star fleet and that ~a thousand ships could engage in the same effect.

This, btw, adds another wrinkle to the efficacy of the Death Star as planetary pacification tool. In TPM, ESB, and the Last Jedi it becomes clear that the only way to engage in effective planetary blockades is to surround the planet and prevent every avenue of escape. The Death Star, as a singular ship in orbit, would be an absolute failure of a blockader when deployed. We also know from the one time we saw it try to blow up a planet it took forever to get into position to do, allowing important people to flee en masse and removing basically every step on the escalation ladder that a fleet can engage in.

25,000 x ISDs @ 37,000 crew each = 925 million men on just those ships. The Death Star's "canon" complement of 2 million is only about fifty ISDs; or two sector groups' worth. The Empire has thousands of sectors at their disposal.

Right, those two sector groups are far more useful and flexible than the Death Star, they can control more sectors at once, pacify threats more effectively, and have much much smaller supply chains. Further, they cost far less to build which means that for the cost of a Death Star the empire could build many more sector forces.

Or perhaps it resulted from Sheev's in depth studies of previous Sith Empires and their downfalls? If planetary shields are a thing; then galactic "turtling" likely played a big role in the downfall of previous Sith Empires; by throwing roadblocks into things long enough for the Jedi to strike down whatever version of the Sith had gained power.

This assumes that the Death Star resolves planetary turtling in the face of concerted multiplanet opposition, which it doesn't, and that there are no other solutions to planetary shields, and I'm not even sold that planetary shields are a significant enough problem to warrant this level of investment in the first place.

So it seems to me that Sheev's deep thoughts were that in order for him to succeed where previous Sith had failed in building an enduring Empire, he had to solve two problems:

I think this falls apart at the premise that Palps wanted to have an enduring Empire. Palpatine never treats any of his apprentices (Maul, 'Dooku', or Vader) with a long-term vision, and he's very very happy to kill one and replace them with another when the time comes. Further, the EU makes clear that the Empire is basically held together by tinsel and fear and lacks anything like a popular mandate or political tools of stability to stay afloat absent him (see also: Coruscant celebrating immediately after he died in RotJ.)

As such, the Death Star as an act of long-term political stability makes limited sense (something the Imperial bureaucracy recognizes in the meeting scene on the Death Star in ANH!), and as a tool for flexible response to galaxy wide flareups makes even less sense, but as Sheev's Pimped Out Hot Rod of DOOM it makes perfect sense.

Right, and at no point do we ever see Palpatine ruling.

Do you really want an entire SW Disney+ series devoted to Palpatine dealing with the Imperial Bureaucracy for 20 years?

Yes.

But also, we never even get the idea that he cared to rule for shit. What does the Empire stand for in terms of policies, taxation, etc.? Just about every time it gets discussed in the EU it's a hodgepodge mix of different local bureaucrats trying out ridiculous things and seeing it blow up in their faces.

Palpatine wanted to be the most powerful man in the Galaxy, he murdered his way to the top, got there, and had no more worlds left to conquer. He is, to loop back, the coyote after catching the road runner. Reconstructing Imperial policy from a deliberate and goals-driven perspective, as such, is useless. Reconstructing it as the whims of a guy who was a megalomaniacal pleasure seeker makes a whole slew more sense.

UNLIMITED POWER.

Palpatine's big trope is that he's the Evil Space Wizard dude; but that 20 year interval between ROTS and ANH with little if any overt acts against the Empire, along with the fact that the Empire remained loyal to him until his death at Endor (4 years after ANH); shows that he had to be a competent political operator at the least.

Does it? He's got no opposition. For most people life continues on as it did under the OId Republic, and people by and large seemed content with that. He stopped a war but kept the overwhelming military. This doesn't necessitate political savvy on any level.

Also, by the time of ANH the senior military leadership of the Empire is deeply concerned about the rebellion and has snowballing support in the Imperial Senate to the point where the Emperor has to abolish it and disrupt the bureaucracy it provides. This is not the situation of a canny political operator smoothly moving his opponents around where he wants them. But it would fit with a bored and understimulated sith lord who is now too distracted with his shiny new toy to bother keeping the Senate in line and potential rebellions pacified.

[Khaat]

Also, by the time of ANH the senior military leadership of the Empire is deeply concerned about the rebellion and has snowballing support in the Imperial Senate to the point where the Emperor has to abolish it and disrupt the bureaucracy it provides. This is not the situation of a canny political operator smoothly moving his opponents around where he wants them. But it would fit with a bored and understimulated sith lord who is now too distracted with his shiny new toy to bother keeping the Senate in line and potential rebellions pacified.

Potentially, it amuses him to stir the pot and crush what rises.
The Rebellion was a political thing for 20 years, it only became a military threat in Rogue One, and even then, merely a "pitiful little band". The Senate was disbanded once the rebels weren't just being killed as they were outed and running away.
The hidden heir was revealed in ANH, and Vader could be replaced by the hot, young blonde, to go with the hot new "muscle car" Death Star: the OT was Palpatine's mid-life crisis.

[MKSheppard]

Potentially, it amuses him to stir the pot and crush what rises.

The Rebellion was a political thing for 20 years, it only became a military threat in Rogue One, and even then, merely a "pitiful little band". The Senate was disbanded once the rebels weren't just being killed as they were outed and running away.

The hidden heir was revealed in ANH, and Vader could be replaced by the hot, young blonde brunette, to go with the hot new "muscle car" Death Star: the OT was Palpatine's mid-life crisis.

You know, I once did some thinking about ANH and Palpatine's famed precognition ("All is transpiring as I have foreseen").

The reasons I came up for Palpatine not being on the DSI in ANH were:

1.) Palpatine is conservative about his safety -- They hadn't done a full power shot from the Death Star before Alderaan; there was a chance it could go badly.

2.) The Death Star was a political trap to test both Vader's and Tarkin's loyalty. It's a lot more subtle than the "hire a dozen assassins to kill Lord Vader to keep him on his toes every other year" that Palpatine does in the comic books. Basically, you give your trusted lieutenants the keys to THE STATION THAT IS NOW THE ULTIMATE POWER IN THE UNIVERSE and see what happens (after making sure you have contingencies nobody knows about).

And the big reason why Palpatine's famed precognition failed was that:

3.) The destruction of Alderaan was the beginning of his plan to turn Leia to the Dark Side.

Palpatine thought he was taking into account the eddies from Leia in the Force when he was foreseeing events on the Death Star; but he had no idea Luke existed -- so his famed precognition was thrown off.

[Galvatron]

Hoth isn't really a good example of this for a whole slew of reasons.

Most importantly, the Empire doesn't want to kill all the rebels. Vader and the Emperor definitely want Luke alive, seemingly want Leia and other leadership alive (though whether or not that's simply as a tool to capture Luke is never made clear), and don't act in ways consistent where the goal is to obliterate the opposition.

Palpatine didn't even seem to be aware of Luke's identity until after the Battle of Hoth was over. At the very least, his conversation with Vader made it pretty clear that the two of them hadn't discussed it before.

If they wanted to actually devastate the rebellion in universe they could:

- Follow the plot of the movie to the point where they blow up the shield generators, pick up the forces on the ground, and then bombard the planet from space.

At which point, the rebel evacuation would have been nearly (if not totally) complete. Don't believe me? Watch the movie again and see for yourself: Han came to fetch Leia immediately after Veers' AT-AT destroyed the shield generator. Threepio then said, "Your Highness, we must take this last transport! It's our only hope!"

Most of the rebels were long gone by then.

- Same as above but instead of bombardment have Tie Bombers/Fighters roll in and engage in mass devastation.

Through the same impenetrable shield that prevented their motherships from bombarding the surface from space?

- Target the vast amount of the planet that isn't shielded, including the areas that are incredibly close to the rebel base (the empire is able to land and advance rather quickly), glass the surface, and trust the environmental and climactic devastation kill the Rebels while maintaining the blockade.
- Go to the nearby asteroid belt, pick up a few asteroids, and start dropping it on the planet for similar effect + greater kinetic force.
- Holdo the planet with a drone ship.

The Empire would have only succeeded in causing the mass deaths of wild tauntauns and wampas. The base itself would presumably remain safely protected by the shield until the rebels could evacuate.

[Straha]

Hoth isn't really a good example of this for a whole slew of reasons.

Most importantly, the Empire doesn't want to kill all the rebels. Vader and the Emperor definitely want Luke alive, seemingly want Leia and other leadership alive (though whether or not that's simply as a tool to capture Luke is never made clear), and don't act in ways consistent where the goal is to obliterate the opposition.

Palpatine didn't even seem to be aware of Luke's identity until after the Battle of Hoth was over. At the very least, his conversation with Vader made it pretty clear that the two of them hadn't discussed it before.

Palpatine divulges that information to Vader after the Battle is over, but it's not said that he discovered the information after the battle. His line is "I have no doubt this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker." and nothing else. Given that Palpatine's ultimate plan is to capture him, turn him to the dark side, and have him kill Vader, and that Vader (no chump) immediately sees this coming and tries to turn Luke so as to use him to kill Palpatine (as evidenced by their conversation in Bespin,) it makes perfect sense that Palps would order his capture and not tell Vader who he is in hopes of getting a jump start on the whole 'convert and kill my troublesome padawan' process.

Also, in the days of the old EU, it was heavily hinted that Vader had a pretty good idea who this kid was after their encounter in Splinter of a Mind's Eye and from interrogating rebels. Sandy haired kid from Tatooine who is strong in the force, friends with Obi Wan Kenobi, last name of Skywalker, and who hates sand? It would take a real fucking ignoramus to not put the pieces together.

Further, in the original ESB (pre-edit) they both clearly know he's "the Son of Skywalker" and refer to him as such.

Regardless of whether or not they knew who Luke was ahead of time, the Empire's actions on Hoth are entirely consistent with a group that wants to capture as many people as possible, and not with a group seeking maximum damage of the facilities and people in question. (At the most basic level: why actually send troops into Echo Base when it could easily be blown to smithereens by AT-AT fire?)

At which point, the rebel evacuation would have been nearly (if not totally) complete. Don't believe me? Watch the movie again and see for yourself: Han came to fetch Leia immediately after Veers' AT-AT destroyed the shield generator. Threepio then said, "Your Highness, we must take this last transport! It's our only hope!"

Most of the rebels were long gone by then.

We see Transports and X-Wings massing on the ground on Hoth, and they are a significant distance away from the base. The Empire does not blow them up from space. There are two explanations of this: either they can't or they don't want to. It is settled in the debates that they absolutely can, so the only reasonable explanation is that they don't want to blow up said sitting duck transports. The only reasonable explanation from that is that they wanted prisoners, which means that the idea that a massively destructive orbital bombardment was ever really on the table doesn't hold water.

- Same as above but instead of bombardment have Tie Bombers/Fighters roll in and engage in mass devastation.

Through the same impenetrable shield that prevented their motherships from bombarding the surface from space?

Read the sentence, I'm talking about after the shield was brought down ('same as above'.) We know the fleet has a full complement of Tie Fighters and attack vehicles. If they want simply to kill the Rebels, the moment Veers brings down the shield the Tie Bombers should roll down from space and begin strafing operations. RotJ shows the Rebels engaging in this coordination with the Death Star Shield, and TLJ and ESB show just how destructive bombing operations can be. Again, it not happening indicates that they didn't want to do this, which is consistent with Vader and the fleet's entire actions all being centered around takings prisoners.


I'd add here this also explains Ozzel's actions by jumping into orbit. Veers is briefed "You are to go in and take as many prisoners as you can through a ground invasion." Ozzel is either not briefed or doesn't care. In the world of a Fleet commander who just wants to kill everyone on the ground surprise does make more sense as a tactical initiative before overwhelming bombardment that catches them before they can leave. This comes with a larger question of what lens do we read imperial actions through. Either Ozzel is broadly incompetent which I think is a damning indict of the Empire writ large, or Ozzel is competent and capable of leading the most powerful fleet in the Galaxy but doesn't work well under Vader. The explanation of "No attempt to kill everyone on the ground was ever seriously planned by Vader." explains everything with the least amount of stress.

- Target the vast amount of the planet that isn't shielded, including the areas that are incredibly close to the rebel base (the empire is able to land and advance rather quickly), glass the surface, and trust the environmental and climactic devastation kill the Rebels while maintaining the blockade.
- Go to the nearby asteroid belt, pick up a few asteroids, and start dropping it on the planet for similar effect + greater kinetic force.
- Holdo the planet with a drone ship.

The Empire would have only succeeded in causing the mass deaths of wild tauntauns and wampas. The base itself would presumably remain safely protected by the shield until the rebels could evacuate.

That's not how planets work. The old EU's description of the BDZ destroying climates, causing firestorms, etc. all indicate that there was nowhere safe from a BDS even if your area of ground in particular isn't being blown up. Asteroids, similarly, would cause climactically destructive events, as seen from the Earth where we know just how devastating large scale asteroids can be. With Hoth in particular, given that the base is buried in ice, raising the temperature enough to cause melting would be enough to devastate the Rebel base, certainly enough to cause major disruption and slow or halt evacuation.

Gut check: the largest asteroid to hit the Earth (the one that made the Vredefort crater) hit with 100 Teratons of Energy. The distance to the edge of the shield is not significant. Dropping an asteroid like that near the shield barrier is going to fuck shit up climactically and geologically. It does so with no risk to the Imperial forces, and if planned for can happen quickly. That they didn't is indicative of the Empire wanting something besides destruction: prisoners. Which means serious bombardment was never on the table.

[Straha]

Palpatine thought the Death Star was a fucking rad idea, and Tarkin sold it to him on the aesthetics of a super cool throne room where he could hide from bureaucrats and occasionally push a man down an infinite well to their death. Once he heard that he was sold.

You could have a Yes, Minister scene, where their Sir Humphrey is plotting to get the Emperor away from the capital, because they've lost their old oversights and are about to have the time of their lives. The one thing holding them back is the guy who scrambled for power and doesn't wholly seem to know what to do with it. That guy's no fun.

Once the Death Star is finished, it's of course best that the Emperor stays on board in his fancy personal space, in case the top brass of defect. A rogue ISD can be dealt with by thousands of other ISDs, but the pride of the Emperor needs the Emperor himself for oversight because there will be no stopping it.

Once that's done, the Emperor and his cronies are everyone else's problem. No more of Vader's shitty puns and workplace violence.

I love the idea of Sir Humphrey dressed up like the advisors on the DSII. Also the idea that the imperial civil service has a whole brace of delay tactics that they deploy against the Emperor to get their way while avoiding being electrocuted.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I love the idea of Sir Humphrey dressed up like the advisors on the DSII. Also the idea that the imperial civil service has a whole brace of delay tactics that they deploy against the Emperor to get their way while avoiding being electrocuted.

If that's an image you want, go watch "Demolition Man" - Nigel Hawthorne is basically still playing Sir Humphrey but in a future where he's in charge, with silly clothes to boot.

[MKSheppard]

Also, in the days of the old EU, it was heavily hinted that Vader had a pretty good idea who this kid was after their encounter in Splinter of a Mind's Eye

SOME was decanonized long ago even under LFL.