How many people during the Empire knew Palpatine was a Sith?

[Straha]

Inspired by Shep's Death Star thread.

How many people knew Palpatine was a Sith lord? Or, at the least, in line with the Sith?

It must be a non-zero number. Lore around the Jedi is common enough (even an enslaved twerp from a outer rim planet knows enough to recognize a Jedi on sight), if so lore around the history of the Jedi and their conflict with the Sith shouldn't be verboten knowledge, and if that's true people have to at least recognize that "Darth Vader" is a Sith Lord of some sort or other. On top of that the Emperor's survival during a Jedi attack has to bring up at least some questions. But how many, at what levels of society, and how deep would the knowledge go?

[Lord Revan]

Inspired by Shep's Death Star thread.

How many people knew Palpatine was a Sith lord? Or, at the least, in line with the Sith?

It must be a non-zero number. Lore around the Jedi is common enough (even an enslaved twerp from a outer rim planet knows enough to recognize a Jedi on sight), if so lore around the history of the Jedi and their conflict with the Sith shouldn't be verboten knowledge, and if that's true people have to at least recognize that "Darth Vader" is a Sith Lord of some sort or other. On top of that the Emperor's survival during a Jedi attack has to bring up at least some questions. But how many, at what levels of society, and how deep would the knowledge go?

From what I've gathered only few at upper echelons of the Imperial hierarchy actually knew Palpatine was a Sith or even a Force user at all. That said I'd assume that many suspected that might be the case but couldn't prove it. Some of those questions could easily be explained though, after all according to public records the war hero Anakin Skywalker was killed during the Clone Wars so the public record could say that he saved Palpatine at the cost of his own life (which apart from the "at cost of his own life" is actually close to the truth). Palpatine is after all a master at using half truths to further his goals.

[Gandalf]

I could see the Emperor's inner circle knowing for sure, and thus being able to influence things within the Empire to more Sith-friendly standards.

There's no reason for Palpatine to hide it once the Jedi are eradicated.

[Ralin]

I could see the Emperor's inner circle knowing for sure, and thus being able to influence things within the Empire to more Sith-friendly standards.

There's no reason for Palpatine to hide it once the Jedi are eradicated.

Other than it encouraging more resistance and rebellion if it became generally known that he was literally an evil space wizard from an evil space wizard cult.

[MKSheppard]

It must be a non-zero number. Lore around the Jedi is common enough (even an enslaved twerp from a outer rim planet knows enough to recognize a Jedi on sight), if so lore around the history of the Jedi and their conflict with the Sith shouldn't be verboten knowledge, and if that's true people have to at least recognize that "Darth Vader" is a Sith Lord of some sort or other. On top of that the Emperor's survival during a Jedi attack has to bring up at least some questions. But how many, at what levels of society, and how deep would the knowledge go?

All very good questions.

I'd like to first point out something here -- we're actually trying to answer fundamental questions that must be answered about the SW universe.

A lot of authors in the SW stable -- especially comic book writers (both Dark Horse and Marvel) -- are just winging it, going with the rule of cool, rather than doing a sit down and figuring out this (or at least asking LFL Story Group under Pablo these questions).

My answers to these questions:

1. people have to at least recognize that "Darth Vader" is a Sith Lord of some sort or other

I believe the public story is that "Lord Vader is a Jedi that refused to go ahead with the Jedi coup and was maimed so badly he has to stay in his suit". Because the Jedi temple is under Imperial control (it was rebuilt into Imperial Palace in the old Canon); there are no records that can contradict this story surviving. I suspect the Jedi kept the peerage of their Jedi quite secret, because if one discovered the family of a Jedi, they could attempt to blackmail them.

Additionally, I tried calculating the number of Jedi that might have existed a few months ago -- I based it off an assumption that 1% of all Jedi survived the initial round of Order 66 purges and got

100 Surviving Jedi = 10,000 Jedi total
500 Surviving Jedi = 50,000 Jedi total
1,000 Surviving Jedi = 100,000 Jedi total

If there are 50,000 Jedi to 100,000 Jedi total at any one time; and we multiply this number by 600 (Obi Wan's words about a thousand generations); we come up with 30 to 60 million jedi total on the entire rolls of the Jedi Order from the beginning to the end of the Jedi Order.

That's too many people to keep detailed biographical data on; even in the age of Space Wikipedia. The New Order can then retroactively edit Space Wikipedia to delete or alter any entries as needed to maintain Vader's Legend.

Also, we have Motti's infamous words on the Death Star:

Lord Vader. Your sad devotion to that ancient religion....

2. On top of that the Emperor's survival during a Jedi attack has to bring up at least some questions.

Well, going from kindly grandfatherly Sheev to old crone Palpatine overnight raises some questions.

I believe that can be explained along with Vader -- Vader being the only Jedi who stood against the Council when they tried to arrest Palpatine and he fought off Mace Windu and the others long enough for Palpatine to escape, suffering grevious injuries in the process.

Or perhaps Sheev went back to try and save Lord Vader and the stress of it aged him a century in a day

3. But how many, at what levels of society, and how deep would the knowledge go?

I believe that Sate Pestage has to know, at least.

EDITED: Also, the inner circle of Palpatine's Royal Guardsmen -- the ones assigned to protect palpatine personally in his office or living quarters -- have to know as well.

Years ago on SDN, I said basically that I'd like to write a background history of what Palpatine was doing in private when he didn't have to do public affairs like for example the four hour marathon "state of the empire" press conference that Putin Palaptine gives each year.

Post ROTS, Palpatine can now do Sith stuff semi public -- well, more public than he was doing before ROTS -- he still has to keep it shrouded in secrecy, but he doesn't have to triple wrap everything in layers of obfuscation and dead ends to throw off the Jedi.

Remember, in the old/new canon, the Sith/Jedi conflict has been going on for a long time, with such things as past Sith Empires. There would have been at least enough public suspicion about the Sith built up over the centuries that Palps can't just execute people with force lightning on the tridee.

Also Palpatine may deliberately shroud his true powers as a protective measure. In one of the Disney/Marvel comics, an assassination attempt gets into Palpatine's inner sanctum only to find that Palpatine has Force Lightning (TM) and isn't afraid to use it.

[Solauren]

Old Canon - Numerous people knew the EMperor was a Sith lord.
Specifically -
Most (if not all of)
The Inquisitors
The Prophets of the Dark Side
The Emperor's Hands.

Largely because he trained alot of them himself, and used the temptation of replacing Darth Vader to control alot of them. (i.e Jerec)

Outside of Force Using Orders...
Grand Admiral Thrawn knew the Emperor was a Force user. He probably figured out he was Sith if he didn't know (I don't remember if that was ever mentioned)
Grand Moff Tarkin was hinted to have figured out Darth Vader = Anakin Skywalker. He probably figured out 'Therefore Palpatine = Sith Lord' on his own, if he didn't already know.
Probably - Most of the Emperor's Inner Circle.
Probably - most of the Grand Admirals (at least one was one of the EMperor's Acolytes)
Probably - most of the Grand Moffs (at least one was one of the EMperor's Acolytes)
Probably - the original Director of Imperial Intelligence. 'Iceheart' certainly did.
The Royal Guard actually may not have known, unless they were Force Sensitive, or saw the Emperor using his powers.

Outside of the Empire -
Beyond the obvious 'hide the twins' trio... (Bail Organa, Kenobi, Yoda)
The upper levels of the Rebel leadership probably knew, thanks to Bail Organa (Mon Mothma, Bel Garm, Admiral Ackbar, General Riekian, General Madine). They had to know what they were facing to plan accordingly.

Jabba the Hutt probably figured it out. Possibly other Hutts as well

Anyone that knew Count Dooku = Darth Tyrannus, and then Darth Vader showing up and serving the Empire probably figured it out

I'm willing to bet the upper levels of the Confederacy knew the truth. It's probably why in the movies, Nute Gunray didn't have alot of patience for Grevious moving them around. He knew that Sidious wouldn't let them be captured. That would also become part of the reason that Vader was ordered to kill them. They could have used it to try to black mail the Emperor, which could have lead to a general revolt, including possibly by the Clone Army. Toss in Confederacy forces, and the Emperor doesn't have a chance. Better to execute them all, and then shut down the Droid Armies.

[Straha]

>snip<

Also, we have Motti's infamous words on the Death Star:

Lord Vader. Your sad devotion to that ancient religion....

So, this is actually the thought that had me start going towards "Maybe there is widespread knowledge of the Sith in the Empire." That and the Sequel Trilogy's Sith cultists/military.

We know from the Prequels and the EU that significant, indeed probably most, elements of the Imperial military leadership during the OT had served in the Clone Wars. Lorth Needa (terrible name) even fought at the Battle of Coruscant. As such, them being dismissive of the Jedi and their powers makes no real sense. The Jedi were their commanding officers in their own professional memory, demonstrated themselves as being incredible fighters and skilled military tacticians, and would have had direct contact, including the use of their abilities, with such a wide field of the corps that suppressing knowledge of them would be an impossible task, even if they were vilified after Palpatine's coup. So calling them an "ancient religion" makes no sense, ditto proclaiming that devotion to the Jedi way is sad. At best, it's devotion to a way of life that was certainly militarily useful if nothing else, at worst it's outright treasonous considering the Jedi betrayal is what triggered the formation of the Empire.

So, here's my pitch: People knew about the Jedi contemporaneously but viewed the Sith as a historic group of the pre- or early Republican period, a religious relationship with the force distinct from, and ultimately put down and suppressed by, the Jedi. When Palpatine lives through his attack, turns on the Jedi, and eliminates them I think it offers a window for Palpatine to rehabilitate the Sith. So that shortly after he takes power Darth Vader can show up and Palpatine can declare "Yeah, he's a Sith, they got a bad rap in the past because we took the traitorous Jedi at their word, and now that the Jedi are gone he wants to come out of hiding and help us in maintaining order." Which would explain who Vader is, where he came from, why he's powerful, and why he can very smoothly slip into a cultural/governmental slot previously held in-universe by Jedi advisors to the Chancellor. It would also explain why people would think devotion to a religious relationship with the force that was so utterly defeated by the Jedi that it had to disappear for millenia would be "sad," especially if part of the founding mythos of the Empire is how easily they put down the Jedi. ("You were losers compared to the losers we obliterated easily.")

I also don't think that there's a way that people could reasonably hide Vader's affiliation in the long run, I'm willing to bet good money that there are academics around the galaxy who have deep encyclopedic knowledge of the old Sith, their naming practices, etc., so having a guy named "Darth" talking about the power of the Force is inevitably going to throw up all sorts of red flags from people, even if it's just a guy who read an old book during a hyperspace trip one day. Chancellor Palpatine's knowledge of Dooku being a Sith Lord, for instance, is not seen as in anyway alarming by the Jedi knights.

But then the questions become a few fold: How many people were aware of Darth Sidious during the Clone Wars, how many people thought of the Clone Wars as a Sith Vs. the Republic as opposed to (or as part of) the CIS vs the Republic, and what's the nature of the reconciliation process post the war? (A thought that occurred as I was writing this post: Could Vader be portrayed as a CIS leader who came over to the Empire at the end, and he's kept around as a sign of post-Clone Wars unity?) And, given the way that we know the Rebellion takes up the phrase "May the force be with you." as a rallying cry, perhaps there's a religious element to this as well, where Palpatine/Sidious in his rejection of the Jedi embraces the Sith as explaining a doctrinal relationship with the spiritual connection felt by the universe with each other and the Rebellion engages in rhetorical ploys against that shift by trying to keep alive the de facto pre-Imperial state religion? The only question there being how open would Palpatine be in his embracing of the Sith's ways?

[madd0c0t0r2]

. So calling them an "ancient religion" makes no sense, ditto proclaiming that devotion to the Jedi way is sad.

I'm not sure this reading of the words is fair. Ancient just refers to age, not to wether it still applies in recent memory. Likewise, someone following a strict military doctrine might see power and religion as separate constructs, religious trappings as sad, and jedi commanders as potent despite their religion, rather than because of it.

A bit like a fifth generation aethist general in the Indian army might talk to a colleague who is a devoted Hindu.
It's an ancient faith that is still carried to this day
.

[Solauren]

Also 'sad devotion to that ancient relgion' is a bit of a poke at the Jedi Order itself - it's dead and gone, but he's still carrying around a lightsaber.

Anyone that served with a Jedi knew they carried lightsabers. No one else was known to, therefore lightsaber = jedi.
It's probably a perception that is older then the Empire, and let some non-Jedi Force users get away with shit. "He's got a lightsaber, he's a jedi'. Kind of the TV/Movie Troupe 'put on a uniform, and they think that's who you are'.

Also, it's more then likely that the officer in question was just used to making personal attacks on people, and the only thing he had on Vader was a possible association with the Jedi. By that point, Vader's record would have been well known, so all you had was 'I think he was a Jedi, arn't they losers?'.

Of course, nearly dying when he strangled you from 10 - 15 feet beyond physical reach put paid to that

[Lord Revan]

We should also remember that this isn't gonna a black and white situation where people either know nothing or know everything. So you might have people who know parts of the story but not whole deal, for example they know Palpatine has some capability at using the Force but do not know he's actually a Sith lord and a very powerful and talented Force user.

Thanks to Rogue One (the movie that is) we know there was (semi-)religious orders that would be considered as unaware Force users, in that they could sort of use the Force but weren't aware at what they were doing or capable of really controlling it in any meaningful way. So it's possible that Palpatine could explain any low scale Force abilities as having been interested in such mysticism in his youth and learn some minor party tricks.

[GuppyShark]

Thanks to Rogue One (the movie that is) we know there was (semi-)religious orders that would be considered as unaware Force users, in that they could sort of use the Force but weren't aware at what they were doing or capable of really controlling it in any meaningful way. So it's possible that Palpatine could explain any low scale Force abilities as having been interested in such mysticism in his youth and learn some minor party tricks.

The latter part dovetails nicely with Solo's skepticism in ANH.

[Solauren]

Or - "I seemed to have picked up the odd little 'fluke' from the assassination attempt'

[Broomstick]

We've seen non-Jedi and non-Sith force-users. They are rare (statistically, so are Jedi and Sith) but they do exist. Think of all those force-sensitive children found when "too old" to be trained. The Jedi and Sith are the more reliable and strongest force-users due to their training, but I'd expect that folks with odd intuitions, a bit of telekinesis, or just faster than normal reaction times (like Anakin before his discovery) are sprinkled into the galactic population.

So Palpatine "discovering", under great pressure and stress from an assassination attempt, that he knows a force "trick" or two might not be considered completely outlandish by the general population.

[Darth Yan]

Inspired by Shep's Death Star thread.

How many people knew Palpatine was a Sith lord? Or, at the least, in line with the Sith?

It must be a non-zero number. Lore around the Jedi is common enough (even an enslaved twerp from a outer rim planet knows enough to recognize a Jedi on sight), if so lore around the history of the Jedi and their conflict with the Sith shouldn't be verboten knowledge, and if that's true people have to at least recognize that "Darth Vader" is a Sith Lord of some sort or other. On top of that the Emperor's survival during a Jedi attack has to bring up at least some questions. But how many, at what levels of society, and how deep would the knowledge go?

I think a few people did. Tarkin is on Sidious' payroll in Legends, and the Empire probably burned a lot of evidence to try and shove it down the memory hole

[MKSheppard]

>snip huge list by Solauren<

I think that there's been an unfortunate "make more Dark Siders" practice in the old EU and in the new EU.

While it's logical that Palpatine following the destruction of the Jedi Order, would start bringing the Sith in from the shadows by instituting a more logical training program than the Rule of Two; every person he inducts into the Big Secret (TM), is another weak link in his political legitimacy.

If people know that he's a Sith Lord, wheels will start turning; you've seen all the 9/11 JET FUEL WON'T MELT STEEL BEAMS stuff growing up; while Lucas' generation was familiar with the REICHSTAG FIRE and the fake attack on a German radio station (Gliewitz) used as pretext to start WWII.

I believe that Palpatine used Vader as a foil politically, assigning the Dark Side Inquisitors to Darth Vader, so that if true knowledge of this leaked out, he could deny, deny deny deny and push everything onto Vader if shit got bad.

Meanwhile, he likely limited himself to just a single Prophet of the Dark Side and two Emperor's Hands.

This is where I posit a possibly crazy "hall of mirrors" thing.

I've previously proposed that the Death Star was a loyalty trap for Tarkin and Vader. What if the Emperor used it as a way to legitimately remove Tarkin from the playing field as Tarkin now knew too much (put 1+1 and figured Anakin=Vader and thus Palpatine maybe = Sidious).

But I don't like that theory as it plays too much into the lame "Xanatos Gambit" meme; and demeans Palpatine into someone who can only execute a task with massive force precognition, rather than a saavy political operator who can adroitly change course upon unexpected events.

[MKSheppard]

I also don't think that there's a way that people could reasonably hide Vader's affiliation in the long run, I'm willing to bet good money that there are academics around the galaxy who have deep encyclopedic knowledge of the old Sith, their naming practices, etc., so having a guy named "Darth" talking about the power of the Force is inevitably going to throw up all sorts of red flags from people, even if it's just a guy who read an old book during a hyperspace trip one day. Chancellor Palpatine's knowledge of Dooku being a Sith Lord, for instance, is not seen as in anyway alarming by the Jedi knights.

That's all pretty good points.

Also, at this point; the Sith are seen as legends -- in TPM the Jedi Council was skeptical of the Sith:

QUI-GON : ...my only conclusion can be that it was a Sith Lord.

MACE WINDU : A Sith Lord?!?

KI-ADI : Impossible! The Sith have been extinct for a millenium.

YODA : The very Republic is threatened, if involved the Sith are.

MACE WINDU : I do not believe they could have returned without us knowing.

So careful use of Sith symbolism and mysticism around Darth Vader may help -- i.e. make it clear that he's a force user, but not a Jedi.

Note that I said "careful". This is something a lot of Old/New EU authors fail to get -- they like hitting the reader/viewer over the head with metaphorical sledgehammers.

The only question there being how open would Palpatine be in his embracing of the Sith's ways?

I think that Palpatine was following a multi phased plan:

Phase I - Defeat Jedi and break them utterly, allowing the Sith to end the Rule of Two and slowly start building up a careful Shadow Network; i.e. Vader and his Inquisitors, Palpatine and his Emperor's Hands,

Phase II -- Break Galactic Government utterly -- I think that this was part of Palpatine's greater overarching plan for the Second Galactic Civil War that he ignited by authorizing Alderaan to be destroyed by the Death Star in ANH. The Sith couldn't completely come out of the shadows completely until existing governmental apparatuses left over from the Old Republic were shattered completely. The Second Galactic Civil War provides cover for the Empire to become more like what Palpatine desires.

Phase III (Not Implemented) -- Ultimately, I believe Palpatine wanted the Sith to once again become overt rulers; he basically wanted to go "public" with something like Byss/Exegol; but he can't do that until he's cleaned up in Phase II. Basically, think of Byss/Exegol like Hitler's plans for Germania (LINK) -- basically moving the centre of power in the Galaxy away from Coruscant onto his own pet planet ruled by Sith acolytes, etc.

[Solauren]

I can't see Sidious tossing the Rule of Two. Becoming 'the Apprentice' was was two great a temptation to use to control other Dark sides.

However, I find Sheps analysis lines up with the old EU nicely.

[Straha]

. So calling them an "ancient religion" makes no sense, ditto proclaiming that devotion to the Jedi way is sad.

I'm not sure this reading of the words is fair. Ancient just refers to age, not to wether it still applies in recent memory. Likewise, someone following a strict military doctrine might see power and religion as separate constructs, religious trappings as sad, and jedi commanders as potent despite their religion, rather than because of it.

A bit like a fifth generation aethist general in the Indian army might talk to a colleague who is a devoted Hindu.
It's an ancient faith that is still carried to this day.

That's still an incredibly awkward phrasing, and while you're positing a secular read of the Jedi I don't think that secularism can exist in the Star Wars universe. They've seen miracles happen, and they are only accessible to a priestly class who have unique and deep access to the force in ways that are cut off from the rest of the world. Secular detachment does not make sense in that world.

I also think that this is taking this one sentence out of the context I'm putting in. Three objections here:

Firstly, the inciting act for the creation of the Empire was its mass purge of the Jedi. They were killed as a class, and it's clear from the old EU (and I imagine the new EU given what I've seen in passing with the Rebels series) that they continued to be hunted down as a class for the rest of the Empire's existence. The idea that a Jedi then could be tolerated at the upper echelons of the Imperial hierarchy is non-sensical. There's a clear analogy here to having a known Jewish hatchetman at the height of the Nazi hierarchy, simply unimaginable.

Second, again is the overt connection of Darth Vader to the Sith via naming and actions. The idea that that is possibly hidden doesn't make sense.

Third, is what I'm going to call the wardroom effect. Given that the Jedi were active commanders of the Republic's forces and that they were known personally by the mid-tier officers in the Republic, how could they pass Vader off as Jedi? Imperial officers in the wardroom are going to swap stories of their early time in the forces and the idea of a Jedi named Vader is going to come up, especially when he's being put in charge of large imperial projects and detachments. He's going to be a non-entity, which is going to raise a bunch of questions. The only acceptable explanation for how Vader became a Jedi, is loyal to the emperor, and escaped the purge is that he was trained post-purge, which is an incredibly complicated thing, especially given the timing. Him being named a Sith is a far easier explanation and sell.

Also 'sad devotion to that ancient relgion' is a bit of a poke at the Jedi Order itself - it's dead and gone, but he's still carrying around a lightsaber.

Anyone that served with a Jedi knew they carried lightsabers. No one else was known to, therefore lightsaber = jedi.
It's probably a perception that is older then the Empire, and let some non-Jedi Force users get away with shit. "He's got a lightsaber, he's a jedi'. Kind of the TV/Movie Troupe 'put on a uniform, and they think that's who you are'.

1. General Grievous.
2. The Sith in their old school reputation certainly carried light sabers.
3. Again, I don't think this answers the question as to how they square the circle of a Jedi at the upper echelons of an institution ideologically committed to the eradication of the Jedi.

[Straha]

That's all pretty good points.

Also, at this point; the Sith are seen as legends -- in TPM the Jedi Council was skeptical of the Sith:

>SNIP<

So, obviously, I like this read of events. Here's the a priori question then: How many people knew that the CIS vs. OR war was also Sith vs. Jedi? It's non-Zero, because Palpatine knows that Dooku is a Sith, and Obi-Wan even jokes about it ("Sith Lords are our specialty.") So, was the presence of the Sith on the other side circulated among the military leadership of the Republic? The Civilian leadership? The civilian populace in general?

[Galvatron]

The vilification of the Jedi may have actually served the dual purpose of turning the galaxy against them and vindicating the Sith in the eyes of those who were aware of their ancient animosity toward each other.

That may have earned Vader a certain measure of grudging acceptance among those who knew of his existence, but I've always doubted that he was ever an Imperial poster boy like some believe he was.

[MKSheppard]

So, obviously, I like this read of events. Here's the a priori question then: How many people knew that the CIS vs. OR war was also Sith vs. Jedi? It's non-Zero, because Palpatine knows that Dooku is a Sith, and Obi-Wan even jokes about it ("Sith Lords are our specialty.") So, was the presence of the Sith on the other side circulated among the military leadership of the Republic? The Civilian leadership? The civilian populace in general?

I'd have to say extremely limited outside of the Jedi and their close hangers on -- i.e. CC-2224 "Commander Cody" -- simply because he's so close to Obi Wan, that he'd absorb a lot of the strategizing.

This makes me wonder about the Clones -- did Palpatine/Sidious make sure that certain types of clones were sent to be Jedi hangers on, so that he'd have a better chance of Order 66 working?

i.e. he doesn't send run of the mill Clonetrooper #34132121 from the batches to be Jedi Minders, but only certain clonetroopers from screened batches get picked to ensure their absolute loyalty (and no, Filoni go away with your control chips).

[MKSheppard]

I can't see Sidious tossing the Rule of Two. Becoming 'the Apprentice' was was two great a temptation to use to control other Dark sides.

He's already broken it in every version of EU, from the old Legends to current Disney Canon.

YODA : Always two there are....no more...no less. A master and an apprentice.

That doesn't jive with the eleventy billion Dark Side Inquisitors, Emperors Hands, Prophets of the Dark Side, etc that inhabit the GFFA following the Imperial Ascension.

[Galvatron]

There must be some advantage that we haven't been made privy to in being an actual apprentice Sith Lord (over just an aspirant or even a garden-variety dark Jedi). Some secret knowledge that only Sith Lords are permitted to learn.

[Straha]

Do we know that the Rule of Two is actually a thing? The only source we have is a Jedi, who is A. shocked that the Sith are back from the grave and B. not exactly trustworthy sources on the Sith in the first place, much less after thousands of years of non-interaction.

[Galvatron]

Well, there's this...