Clone Wars rewrite project

[Gandalf]

True, but KraytKing seems to want ALL the clones to be violently committing atrocities and enjoy doing it.

And? Some people are terrible, like the SS. KraytKing's whole thing makes this make sense.

Realistically there'd be clones who wouldn't, and someone as egomaniacal as Palpatine isn't going to want anyone to dissent or disagree

Why do you appeal to what Palpatine would want? Rarely do dictators want dissidents, but they happen because of repressions. Leia even flags this at the start of ANH.

[Darth Yan]

True, but KraytKing seems to want ALL the clones to be violently committing atrocities and enjoy doing it.

And? Some people are terrible, like the SS. KraytKing's whole thing makes this make sense.

Realistically there'd be clones who wouldn't, and someone as egomaniacal as Palpatine isn't going to want anyone to dissent or disagree

Why do you appeal to what Palpatine would want? Rarely do dictators want dissidents, but they happen because of repressions. Leia even flags this at the start of ANH.

1.) KraytKing thinks that EVERY clone will be like the SS. THAT I don't find believable.

2.) Order 66 is THE key part of his plan; it won't work unless it has a 95%+ success rate, and conditioning alone won't come CLOSE to giving the amount. The only way EVERY clone is going to turn, or even 90% of them is if something like the chips exist.

[Gandalf]

1.) KraytKing thinks that EVERY clone will be like the SS. THAT I don't find believable.

And? Your own incredulity isn't stopping the rest of us from understanding it.

2.) Order 66 is THE key part of his plan; it won't work unless it has a 95%+ success rate, and conditioning alone won't come CLOSE to giving the amount. The only way EVERY clone is going to turn, or even 90% of them is if something like the chips exist.

Why does it need those numbers, and not something drastically lower?

[Darth Yan]

1.) KraytKing thinks that EVERY clone will be like the SS. THAT I don't find believable.

And? Your own incredulity isn't stopping the rest of us from understanding it.

2.) Order 66 is THE key part of his plan; it won't work unless it has a 95%+ success rate, and conditioning alone won't come CLOSE to giving the amount. The only way EVERY clone is going to turn, or even 90% of them is if something like the chips exist.

Why does it need those numbers, and not something drastically lower?

Do you mean all fans or just the people on this thread? I’ve explained how armies comprised of psychos are utterly ineffective as soldiers, and Palpatine needs effective soldiers if his “play both sides” scheme is to work.

Because otherwise the Jedi might rally and try to take him down. He’s only secure if they’re overwhelmingly broken.

KK values themes over storytelling logic

[Gandalf]

Do you mean all fans or just the people on this thread?

This thread.

I’ve explained how armies comprised of psychos are utterly ineffective as soldiers, and Palpatine needs effective soldiers if his “play both sides” scheme is to work.

Because otherwise the Jedi might rally and try to take him down. He’s only secure if they’re overwhelmingly broken.

This is a weird amount of assertions already addressed in the thread, or wholly irrelevant considering it's about a rewrite of the whole thing.

KK values themes over storytelling logic

Do you have a functioning definition of "storytelling logic?"

[Crazedwraith]

I wrote and re-wrote this. I'm still not sure it's saying what I want to say. Alas. It's based mainly off of your first post Krayt and some replies to Yan. So apologies if this addressed in the other 'story' posts for lack of a better term.

The clones are something special. To me, they make no sense as they were written. If the Republic is fighting the droid armies of the Separatists, then why would they have any trouble finding volunteers? The droids are clearly evil, the Republic has trillion-sapient city planets, growing clones is such a backwards concept. However. What if the clones are rewritten a bit? A critical element of the rise of European fascism to me is that they were not popular movements. It was always a violent minority that took over governments and then consolidated power until it was the majority. The clones therefore must represent this. The galaxy doesn't want evil authoritarianism, but the clones are that concept given life. They are the Waffen SS. They are violent sociopaths, they will shrink from no task, and they will masquerade as a necessary evil to save the galaxy until everyone around them is eventually just evil. They are human, not aliens, and they justify the Imperial Human High Culture to come. Above all, they are an introspection. They are not modified to be loyal or monstrous, they are simply raised that way. They should be a warning of the potential we all carry within us to be mindless, monstrous servants to a great evil.

All you're proving is that people raised in complete isolation to violent sociopaths... will turn out to be violent sociopaths. It's not really exactly an insightful warning for our time.

That's why most stories go the 'freedom vs security', 'evil wins if good men do nothing' type loop. We'd rather be happy and secure. More on this on the next section. But even if the waffen SS were a minority they were still regular people convinced by fascism a warning in complacency, in easy promises etc etc. The clones are a manufactured waffen ss an external minority imposing fascism not a danger from within.

Lastly, the Clone Wars need to be fought against the people of the galaxy, not a morally empty droid threat. I think the first secession should be fought by industrialists with droid armies, because that is the easiest thing for Palpatine to manipulate into reality. But once the wars get going, it needs to be regular sapients on the receiving end. The Republic is definitely the good guy in the first episode, the clones are definitely the heroes. But by the end, it must be made clear that the Empire is NOT a state militarized by necessity: the enemy it is crushing must now be sympathetic.

I really dislike this. Maybe it's just me but I can't make it fit with ANH, where the Rebellion is a tiny non-entity that could be wiped out by destroying Yavin, made up of political idealists. And the Empire has only just dissolved the Imperial Senate and stopped presenting itself the republic under a different name.

A couple of caveats, I know the rebels are supposed to be well equipped enough to endanger the starfleet, which does seem at odds with the wiped out at Yavin thing but the stakes of ANH only makes sense to me if that's true. And yes my impression of the senate thing is influenced by the prequels. Can't unsee them.

You seem to have the Empire imposed by the clones from without. That would to me mean a lot less legitimacy and a lot more rebellion. It also defeats the whole fascism from within thing when it's being pushed by the ultimate others. The manufactured clone army.

It also presents us with a deliciously tragic moral quandary: follow orders or follow friendships? Juubi Karakuchi did an excellent job explaining why they could only choose to follow orders: doing otherwise violates everything they've been taught since they decanted. Of course, if the clones behave as a monolith, then the story becomes less organic and less applicable to real life; certainly not 100% of the clones will clinically execute their leadership. Some will; some will delight in executing their hated mystic overlords; some will struggle internally but ultimately obey their training, and be tortured by it eternally; and some will refuse, reject everything they've ever known. This last group will prove that the rest DID have a choice, and chose wrong.

Except in your universe, the clones are all violent sociopaths and Waffen SS equivalents. There is not a tragic moral quandary there, they way you've set up. You can't have it both ways, either they are tragic figures torn between orders and friendships or they are complete dependable political thugs. Which is it?

I mean in part what Yan is getting at is in story, these guys are manufactured. (I wrote this bit first and then went up so sorry this is no repetitious) They are designed and built for a purpose. You don't want them to be altered or brain chipped for thematic reasons, but why wouldn't Palpatine in universe want to control as much as possible? You can handwave it and say these options just don't exist in your version of Star Wars but ultimately indoctrinating them from birth comes to the same thing. It's not a message about the human condition or anything.

[bilateralrope]

This is a HUGE leap of logic and predicated on an incorrect assumption. You're suckered in on the brain chips being the ONLY POSSIBLE WAY for the Jedi Purge to possibly occur, and I really can't discern why. The Jedi Order is a chain of command outside the ordinary chain of command, not answerable to the commander in chief OR the state. Establishing them as the "other" has already been done, by their own doctrine, for centuries. From a military perspective, they are the PERFECT tool for a military coup: each one is powerful, they have their own communications network, they can CONTROL YOUR GOD DAMN MIND, they are present at all military headquarters AND the political center of the galaxy, and (for a while at least) they are well loved by the general population. It must be in the back of every clone's mind "if they tried to seize power, could we stop them?" Palpatine merely has to push that fear a little. He claims they're trying to seize power, and the clones react in fear.

It also presents us with a deliciously tragic moral quandary: follow orders or follow friendships? Juubi Karakuchi did an excellent job explaining why they could only choose to follow orders: doing otherwise violates everything they've been taught since they decanted. Of course, if the clones behave as a monolith, then the story becomes less organic and less applicable to real life; certainly not 100% of the clones will clinically execute their leadership. Some will; some will delight in executing their hated mystic overlords; some will struggle internally but ultimately obey their training, and be tortured by it eternally; and some will refuse, reject everything they've ever known. This last group will prove that the rest DID have a choice, and chose wrong.

If they are sufficiently indoctrinated that enough of them will gun down the Jedi as soon as they are given the order, they are too indoctrinated to form any real bonds with the Jedi and the Jedi will know it. Maybe from hearing whatever slurs the clones have for Jedi, maybe from telepathy.

The Jedi will see the clones as being necessary at first. But they will be wary. They are going to be using what political influence they have to only use the clones where necessary. Probably wanting them phased out and replaced with military forces recruited from civilian populations. Once those military forces become available, which forces do you think the Jedi will choose to surround themselves with ?

Oh and recruiting military from civilians causes another problem for Palpatine. With clones, the number being bred can be adjusted behind the scenes to match droid production. Preventing either side from winning too quickly. He has much less control over how many soldiers a planet recruits from its civilian population.

The bring chips eliminate all those problems. The clones get to form genuine friendships with the Jedi, which the Jedi can confirm through their telepathy. They aren't going to have any complaints about stationing clones in areas that need protecting, nor having almost every Jedi surrounded by clones most of the time. They aren't going to be arguing for phasing the clones out. Then Order 66 happens and the chip overrides the clones free will.

[Darth Yan]

You said it very well. An egomaniac like Palpatine wants total control and the trap only works if the Jedi trust the clones. If the clones are overly indoctrinated that won’t happen.

It’s like why Palpatine has to be force sensitive. The dark side makes people power hungry and ambitious at all costs; they won’t just be satisfied with functionary positions or consider whether they actually like running a state more than the military.

No, a Sith is going to want to sit in the big chair, wield the trappings of power, and possess the power directly. Sooner or later Vader’s going to make a play regardless, and the most simple reason for not trying is because Palpatine has the raw power to put him in his place (if he has other dark sider’s they’ll double cross him. Vader can also destroy things like chips or other counter measures in his body).

[Gunhead]

You said it very well. An egomaniac like Palpatine wants total control and the trap only works if the Jedi trust the clones. If the clones are overly indoctrinated that won’t happen.

You are not giving enough credit to Palpatine and just how clever and insidious his plan was. It basically boils down to Palpatine totally outplaying the Jedi into choosing between two bad choices. They can either take the bait and sign up as officers within the clone army and try to keep things under control, we know how this played out, or they could stay away and basically give up any sort of control over the largest military force the republic has fielded in a millennia or so to Palpatine and any suck up he deems worthy to appoint to lead it. Either way, whether the Jedi trust the clones or not is largely immaterial.

-Gunhead

[Crazedwraith]

You said it very well. An egomaniac like Palpatine wants total control and the trap only works if the Jedi trust the clones. If the clones are overly indoctrinated that won’t happen.

You are not giving enough credit to Palpatine and just how clever and insidious his plan was. It basically boils down to Palpatine totally outplaying the Jedi into choosing between two bad choices. They can either take the bait and sign up as officers within the clone army and try to keep things under control, we know how this played out, or they could stay away and basically give up any sort of control over the largest military force the republic has fielded in a millennia or so to Palpatine and any suck up he deems worthy to appoint to lead it. Either way, whether the Jedi trust the clones or not is largely immaterial.

-Gunhead

It isn't immaterial if you expect the clones to be able to back stab the jedi because they trust them. There's a wide range of scenarios that can take place if the jedi become the clone's officers that don't end in order 66 if they were more suspicious and guarded with the clones. Palpatine's plan worked because largely the Jedi don't seem to have realised they were playing against him at all.

(Which is weird because they knew the clones were purchased in real dodgy circumstances.)

[Gunhead]

It isn't immaterial if you expect the clones to be able to back stab the jedi because they trust them. There's a wide range of scenarios that can take place if the jedi become the clone's officers that don't end in order 66 if they were more suspicious and guarded with the clones.

Because the plan obviously doesn't really hinge on the Jedi trusting the clones. It is simply to separate them, then attack with overwhelming force and kill them individually. No matter how guarded the Jedi are, simply put the numbers are vastly against them. The clone army fighting hundreds of different battles basically guarantees the Jedi are surrounded by clones when the order to wipe them out comes down. Even if more Jedi initially escape the order 66, they're still scattered, lacking functional C&C and are in no way able to turn the tide which in effect makes the Jedi order cease to exist which is the important part of Palpatines plan.

-Gunhead

[KraytKing]

All you're proving is that people raised in complete isolation to violent sociopaths... will turn out to be violent sociopaths. It's not really exactly an insightful warning for our time.

That's why most stories go the 'freedom vs security', 'evil wins if good men do nothing' type loop. We'd rather be happy and secure. More on this on the next section. But even if the waffen SS were a minority they were still regular people convinced by fascism a warning in complacency, in easy promises etc etc. The clones are a manufactured waffen ss an external minority imposing fascism not a danger from within.

The important component to me is that they are not genetically modified or implanted to act the way they do. They are baseline humans, raised to behave a certain way. All humans would behave that way if raised that way--we don't get to dismiss it as "oh they were genetically modified to be obedient" or "of course they wouldn't kill someone they loved, they were forced to." You raise a good point, of course, but I think the most important component to dismantle is the literal dehumanization.

I really dislike this. Maybe it's just me but I can't make it fit with ANH, where the Rebellion is a tiny non-entity that could be wiped out by destroying Yavin, made up of political idealists. And the Empire has only just dissolved the Imperial Senate and stopped presenting itself the republic under a different name.

A couple of caveats, I know the rebels are supposed to be well equipped enough to endanger the starfleet, which does seem at odds with the wiped out at Yavin thing but the stakes of ANH only makes sense to me if that's true. And yes my impression of the senate thing is influenced by the prequels. Can't unsee them.

You seem to have the Empire imposed by the clones from without. That would to me mean a lot less legitimacy and a lot more rebellion. It also defeats the whole fascism from within thing when it's being pushed by the ultimate others. The manufactured clone army.

Well, part of the problem is that I just need to hurry up and write out the rest of the outline. Some of this is featured in more detail, I guess.

I never saw the Rebellion like that. I always interpreted the movies to just show off an aspect of a much greater conflict, with Endor being the only time the full might of the Rebellion is revealed on screen. There's a galactic brushfire conflict going on--Rebel-backed privateers, sector commands for regional Rebel insurgents, many hidden bases. Yavin would have meant the death of the Rebel Alliance because that's where its leadership currently was hiding--but it wouldn't have ended the war. The Empire can never win conclusively, it can only keep fighting whenever something else pops up.

That's my view of the movies as they are. With the context of my story here, the distinction between the Third Clone War and the Rebellion is who is fighting. The Rebel Alliance is most importantly an alliance, bringing together remnants of the Confederacy with the Core World senators who realized the Republic had become a tyranny. Everything beyond the Colonies has been mildly disdained by the Core since forever, and the Clone Wars turned that to fear. The Empire is completely legitimate in the Core, in their eyes, it is only in the Mid and Outer Rim where it was imposed through violence alone.

Except in your universe, the clones are all violent sociopaths and Waffen SS equivalents. There is not a tragic moral quandary there, they way you've set up. You can't have it both ways, either they are tragic figures torn between orders and friendships or they are complete dependable political thugs. Which is it?

I don't quite see the need for it to be black and white. Like I said, I need to write out more of the timeline, but I think the Clone Wars need to last more than a decade all told. That is plenty of time for nuance. The baseline of my clones vs Filoni's is that they are brutal monsters, but they are still human. Over time, they will form all manner of connections and personalities and quirks just as humans do; unlike the rest of us, the "home personality" they fall back on is pretty fuckin terrible.

A short example, from a prose interlude I intend to post later. A scene of clones working to raise resistance fighters in a small village. It is after training, and a feast has been prepared in honor of some victory or another. The clones, in partial armor, are dancing and eating and laughing alongside the villagers. They play with the children, they drink, they carouse. But a few hours later, one family hurriedly leaves the village in the wee hours, possibly representing a security breach if they are found by droids. One of the clones who had been drinking with the mother and playing with the child is ordered to terminate them to alleviate the risk, and he does so. He might hesitate, he might waffle, but at the end of the day he chooses to murder a man, a woman, and a child for the sake of the mission. He is a soldier first, even as his individuality and humanity is shown.

I mean in part what Yan is getting at is in story, these guys are manufactured. (I wrote this bit first and then went up so sorry this is no repetitious) They are designed and built for a purpose. You don't want them to be altered or brain chipped for thematic reasons, but why wouldn't Palpatine in universe want to control as much as possible? You can handwave it and say these options just don't exist in your version of Star Wars but ultimately indoctrinating them from birth comes to the same thing. It's not a message about the human condition or anything.

Regarding the brain chips, I guess I am handwaving them. I don't like that word, since they didn't exist as a concept until Clone Wars season 6 a decade after Order 66, they're barely Star Wars, but I guess they do count. But you and the others do make an excellent point regarding indoctrination being the same thing. The story needs to be careful: the clones need humanizing moments to show that the indoctrination didn't make them into living droids. And then have that humanity factor into their betrayal of the Jedi.

If they are sufficiently indoctrinated that enough of them will gun down the Jedi as soon as they are given the order, they are too indoctrinated to form any real bonds with the Jedi and the Jedi will know it. Maybe from hearing whatever slurs the clones have for Jedi, maybe from telepathy.

The Jedi will see the clones as being necessary at first. But they will be wary. They are going to be using what political influence they have to only use the clones where necessary. Probably wanting them phased out and replaced with military forces recruited from civilian populations. Once those military forces become available, which forces do you think the Jedi will choose to surround themselves with ?

--snip--

The bring chips eliminate all those problems. The clones get to form genuine friendships with the Jedi, which the Jedi can confirm through their telepathy. They aren't going to have any complaints about stationing clones in areas that need protecting, nor having almost every Jedi surrounded by clones most of the time. They aren't going to be arguing for phasing the clones out. Then Order 66 happens and the chip overrides the clones free will.

I feel like most of this is pretty well addressed by the section you quoted. There are legitimate military reasons why a Jedi coup should be feared by the clones. It doesn't need to be black and white, "either the clones always hate the Jedi or they form friendships and won't betray." There can be nuance. The clones ARE sociopathic monsters, because they were raised by sociopaths in a clinical nightmare of a home, but they DO diverge away from that in years of war alongside comrades they love. But maybe it isn't enough, and coupled with the things in the passage you quoted, the vast majority of clones decide "orders are orders." Or they react in fear, like I said earlier, and think "I doubt Ahsoka would do this, but the C-in-C said she did, and if I'm wrong then a theocracy takes over the government and it's my fault."

Not all Jedi will be loved. Some will be hated, which will probably be the most "holier than thou" types, who will also be those that feel a DUTY to serve in order to keep men like Tarkin from fighting the war THEIR way.

Bottom line about the brain chips, they're just a lazy writing tool. "Fuck, we don't really have a good reason for things to happen the way they happen. I guess we could just throw in mind control, fuck it." They should have been the last resort.

Oh and recruiting military from civilians causes another problem for Palpatine. With clones, the number being bred can be adjusted behind the scenes to match droid production. Preventing either side from winning too quickly. He has much less control over how many soldiers a planet recruits from its civilian population.

I don't think that's such a huge consideration. Clones have a ten year lead time for adjustments, remember. Actually, I would wager that controlling recruitment is EASIER. With clones, if you take less than the entirety of the latest generation, everyone is going to wonder why. Super suspicious. With recruitment, there are a million and one ways to reduce yield. New medical regulations, manipulate planetary governors into shortchanging you, start being racist against nonhumans, conveniently lose draft documentation for a few sectors one year. Blame it all on the Republican corruption you're trying to fight if anyone notices.

[Darth Yan]

All you're proving is that people raised in complete isolation to violent sociopaths... will turn out to be violent sociopaths. It's not really exactly an insightful warning for our time.

That's why most stories go the 'freedom vs security', 'evil wins if good men do nothing' type loop. We'd rather be happy and secure. More on this on the next section. But even if the waffen SS were a minority they were still regular people convinced by fascism a warning in complacency, in easy promises etc etc. The clones are a manufactured waffen ss an external minority imposing fascism not a danger from within.

The important component to me is that they are not genetically modified or implanted to act the way they do. They are baseline humans, raised to behave a certain way. All humans would behave that way if raised that way--we don't get to dismiss it as "oh they were genetically modified to be obedient" or "of course they wouldn't kill someone they loved, they were forced to." You raise a good point, of course, but I think the most important component to dismantle is the literal dehumanization.

I really dislike this. Maybe it's just me but I can't make it fit with ANH, where the Rebellion is a tiny non-entity that could be wiped out by destroying Yavin, made up of political idealists. And the Empire has only just dissolved the Imperial Senate and stopped presenting itself the republic under a different name.

A couple of caveats, I know the rebels are supposed to be well equipped enough to endanger the starfleet, which does seem at odds with the wiped out at Yavin thing but the stakes of ANH only makes sense to me if that's true. And yes my impression of the senate thing is influenced by the prequels. Can't unsee them.

You seem to have the Empire imposed by the clones from without. That would to me mean a lot less legitimacy and a lot more rebellion. It also defeats the whole fascism from within thing when it's being pushed by the ultimate others. The manufactured clone army.

Well, part of the problem is that I just need to hurry up and write out the rest of the outline. Some of this is featured in more detail, I guess.

I never saw the Rebellion like that. I always interpreted the movies to just show off an aspect of a much greater conflict, with Endor being the only time the full might of the Rebellion is revealed on screen. There's a galactic brushfire conflict going on--Rebel-backed privateers, sector commands for regional Rebel insurgents, many hidden bases. Yavin would have meant the death of the Rebel Alliance because that's where its leadership currently was hiding--but it wouldn't have ended the war. The Empire can never win conclusively, it can only keep fighting whenever something else pops up.

That's my view of the movies as they are. With the context of my story here, the distinction between the Third Clone War and the Rebellion is who is fighting. The Rebel Alliance is most importantly an alliance, bringing together remnants of the Confederacy with the Core World senators who realized the Republic had become a tyranny. Everything beyond the Colonies has been mildly disdained by the Core since forever, and the Clone Wars turned that to fear. The Empire is completely legitimate in the Core, in their eyes, it is only in the Mid and Outer Rim where it was imposed through violence alone.

Except in your universe, the clones are all violent sociopaths and Waffen SS equivalents. There is not a tragic moral quandary there, they way you've set up. You can't have it both ways, either they are tragic figures torn between orders and friendships or they are complete dependable political thugs. Which is it?

I don't quite see the need for it to be black and white. Like I said, I need to write out more of the timeline, but I think the Clone Wars need to last more than a decade all told. That is plenty of time for nuance. The baseline of my clones vs Filoni's is that they are brutal monsters, but they are still human. Over time, they will form all manner of connections and personalities and quirks just as humans do; unlike the rest of us, the "home personality" they fall back on is pretty fuckin terrible.

A short example, from a prose interlude I intend to post later. A scene of clones working to raise resistance fighters in a small village. It is after training, and a feast has been prepared in honor of some victory or another. The clones, in partial armor, are dancing and eating and laughing alongside the villagers. They play with the children, they drink, they carouse. But a few hours later, one family hurriedly leaves the village in the wee hours, possibly representing a security breach if they are found by droids. One of the clones who had been drinking with the mother and playing with the child is ordered to terminate them to alleviate the risk, and he does so. He might hesitate, he might waffle, but at the end of the day he chooses to murder a man, a woman, and a child for the sake of the mission. He is a soldier first, even as his individuality and humanity is shown.

I mean in part what Yan is getting at is in story, these guys are manufactured. (I wrote this bit first and then went up so sorry this is no repetitious) They are designed and built for a purpose. You don't want them to be altered or brain chipped for thematic reasons, but why wouldn't Palpatine in universe want to control as much as possible? You can handwave it and say these options just don't exist in your version of Star Wars but ultimately indoctrinating them from birth comes to the same thing. It's not a message about the human condition or anything.

Regarding the brain chips, I guess I am handwaving them. I don't like that word, since they didn't exist as a concept until Clone Wars season 6 a decade after Order 66, they're barely Star Wars, but I guess they do count. But you and the others do make an excellent point regarding indoctrination being the same thing. The story needs to be careful: the clones need humanizing moments to show that the indoctrination didn't make them into living droids. And then have that humanity factor into their betrayal of the Jedi.

If they are sufficiently indoctrinated that enough of them will gun down the Jedi as soon as they are given the order, they are too indoctrinated to form any real bonds with the Jedi and the Jedi will know it. Maybe from hearing whatever slurs the clones have for Jedi, maybe from telepathy.

The Jedi will see the clones as being necessary at first. But they will be wary. They are going to be using what political influence they have to only use the clones where necessary. Probably wanting them phased out and replaced with military forces recruited from civilian populations. Once those military forces become available, which forces do you think the Jedi will choose to surround themselves with ?

--snip--

The bring chips eliminate all those problems. The clones get to form genuine friendships with the Jedi, which the Jedi can confirm through their telepathy. They aren't going to have any complaints about stationing clones in areas that need protecting, nor having almost every Jedi surrounded by clones most of the time. They aren't going to be arguing for phasing the clones out. Then Order 66 happens and the chip overrides the clones free will.

I feel like most of this is pretty well addressed by the section you quoted. There are legitimate military reasons why a Jedi coup should be feared by the clones. It doesn't need to be black and white, "either the clones always hate the Jedi or they form friendships and won't betray." There can be nuance. The clones ARE sociopathic monsters, because they were raised by sociopaths in a clinical nightmare of a home, but they DO diverge away from that in years of war alongside comrades they love. But maybe it isn't enough, and coupled with the things in the passage you quoted, the vast majority of clones decide "orders are orders." Or they react in fear, like I said earlier, and think "I doubt Ahsoka would do this, but the C-in-C said she did, and if I'm wrong then a theocracy takes over the government and it's my fault."

Not all Jedi will be loved. Some will be hated, which will probably be the most "holier than thou" types, who will also be those that feel a DUTY to serve in order to keep men like Tarkin from fighting the war THEIR way.

Bottom line about the brain chips, they're just a lazy writing tool. "Fuck, we don't really have a good reason for things to happen the way they happen. I guess we could just throw in mind control, fuck it." They should have been the last resort.

Oh and recruiting military from civilians causes another problem for Palpatine. With clones, the number being bred can be adjusted behind the scenes to match droid production. Preventing either side from winning too quickly. He has much less control over how many soldiers a planet recruits from its civilian population.

I don't think that's such a huge consideration. Clones have a ten year lead time for adjustments, remember. Actually, I would wager that controlling recruitment is EASIER. With clones, if you take less than the entirety of the latest generation, everyone is going to wonder why. Super suspicious. With recruitment, there are a million and one ways to reduce yield. New medical regulations, manipulate planetary governors into shortchanging you, start being racist against nonhumans, conveniently lose draft documentation for a few sectors one year. Blame it all on the Republican corruption you're trying to fight if anyone notices.

1.) Except "Brutal monsters" are by their nature utterly inept at being soldiers. Even soldiers with reputations for being killing machines (The Goumiers) had iron discipline. So having their baseline be "brutal monster" is just bad writing. Again, you fall into the "competent soldiers must be remorseless monsters" mindset.

2.) As said before Palpatine is an egomaniac. He isn't going to want ANY of the clones to defy him when Order 66 comes down, and realistically there'd be fairly large chunk of clones who'd refuse to follow the order. From a LOGICAL standpoint it makes perfect sense. Your arguments purely boil down to thematic preference.

3.) The Rebels have a central base but they're still fairly small. It's not until Yavin (When the Empire suffers a genuine defeat against impossible odds) that more people who hate the Empire realize "okay maybe there is a chance."

[KraytKing]

1.) Except "Brutal monsters" are by their nature utterly inept at being soldiers. Even soldiers with reputations for being killing machines (The Goumiers) had iron discipline. So having their baseline be "brutal monster" is just bad writing. Again, you fall into the "competent soldiers must be remorseless monsters" mindset.

I already addressed this very point several posts ago and you haven't offered any refutation, except now to say it again as if you'd read nothing to the contrary. One of few posts you've not responded to, in fact. Do you want me to say it again?

2.) As said before Palpatine is an egomaniac. He isn't going to want ANY of the clones to defy him when Order 66 comes down, and realistically there'd be fairly large chunk of clones who'd refuse to follow the order. From a LOGICAL standpoint it makes perfect sense. Your arguments purely boil down to thematic preference.

It makes sense from a logical standpoint IF you presuppose that such a thing as brain chips exist in Star Wars. Stalin might have wanted brain chips, but he didn't have them. From a writing perspective, they make no sense to INVENT, for reasons I've given. IF you concede that mind control devices do exist in Star Wars, then from a writing perspective it obviously makes perfect sense for Palpatine to use them. We seem to be arguing different things: when I say the writing is nonsense, I mean the INVENTION of the brain chips, and you seem to mean the USE of the brain chips, accepting that their invention is self-evident.

Usually, when determining what EXISTS in the universe, it really does boil down to thematic preference. Not sure what's so hard to swallow about that. The Empire isn't run by an AI singularity, even though it is logical from our current understanding of the universe, because of thematic preference.

3.) The Rebels have a central base but they're still fairly small. It's not until Yavin (When the Empire suffers a genuine defeat against impossible odds) that more people who hate the Empire realize "okay maybe there is a chance."

I interpreted the Death Star not as the first victory against the Empire, but the first major victory. The Rebel Alliance has been fighting for years by then, but the most they've done is damage a Star Destroyer and retreat, or hit supply convoys, or blow up power stations. Nothing like "destroy the ultimate power in the universe." Everyone knows the Taliban killed a bunch of Americans and blew up a bunch of our shit, but it would be pretty different if they sank Gerald Ford.

[Galvatron]

I interpreted the Death Star not as the first victory against the Empire, but the first major victory. The Rebel Alliance has been fighting for years by then, but the most they've done is damage a Star Destroyer and retreat, or hit supply convoys, or blow up power stations. Nothing like "destroy the ultimate power in the universe." Everyone knows the Taliban killed a bunch of Americans and blew up a bunch of our shit, but it would be pretty different if they sank Gerald Ford.

As I said in a prior thread:

The opening crawl of ANH tells us that rebel spaceships just won their first victory against the Empire. That makes no sense if the rebels have been successfully defeating the Imperials for years prior to the events of Star Wars: Rogue One.

I always imagined that the Rebel Alliance was composed mainly of spies and saboteurs who would hurt the Empire covertly and expose their atrocities to the galaxy as part of their propaganda campaign. That would help to explain the erosion of the Emperor's support in both the Senate and the general populace during the 20 years between ANH and ROTS.

It would also help to explain their acquisition of military grade starships and fighters as one of the major benefits of gaining the sympathy of powerful allies.

[Darth Yan]

1.) Except "Brutal monsters" are by their nature utterly inept at being soldiers. Even soldiers with reputations for being killing machines (The Goumiers) had iron discipline. So having their baseline be "brutal monster" is just bad writing. Again, you fall into the "competent soldiers must be remorseless monsters" mindset.

I already addressed this very point several posts ago and you haven't offered any refutation, except now to say it again as if you'd read nothing to the contrary. One of few posts you've not responded to, in fact. Do you want me to say it again?

2.) As said before Palpatine is an egomaniac. He isn't going to want ANY of the clones to defy him when Order 66 comes down, and realistically there'd be fairly large chunk of clones who'd refuse to follow the order. From a LOGICAL standpoint it makes perfect sense. Your arguments purely boil down to thematic preference.

It makes sense from a logical standpoint IF you presuppose that such a thing as brain chips exist in Star Wars. Stalin might have wanted brain chips, but he didn't have them. From a writing perspective, they make no sense to INVENT, for reasons I've given. IF you concede that mind control devices do exist in Star Wars, then from a writing perspective it obviously makes perfect sense for Palpatine to use them. We seem to be arguing different things: when I say the writing is nonsense, I mean the INVENTION of the brain chips, and you seem to mean the USE of the brain chips, accepting that their invention is self-evident.

Usually, when determining what EXISTS in the universe, it really does boil down to thematic preference. Not sure what's so hard to swallow about that. The Empire isn't run by an AI singularity, even though it is logical from our current understanding of the universe, because of thematic preference.

3.) The Rebels have a central base but they're still fairly small. It's not until Yavin (When the Empire suffers a genuine defeat against impossible odds) that more people who hate the Empire realize "okay maybe there is a chance."

I interpreted the Death Star not as the first victory against the Empire, but the first major victory. The Rebel Alliance has been fighting for years by then, but the most they've done is damage a Star Destroyer and retreat, or hit supply convoys, or blow up power stations. Nothing like "destroy the ultimate power in the universe." Everyone knows the Taliban killed a bunch of Americans and blew up a bunch of our shit, but it would be pretty different if they sank Gerald Ford.

1.) No I did refute it. You just keep stating that their baseline is "sociopathic monster". As bilateral pointed out if they were THAT indoctrinated from the word go they would NEVER form bonds period. And as mentioned sociopaths would get killed because of how incompetent they are, and wouldn't really grow out of it enough to form bonds (like you seem to think they would.)

So no, the clones wouldn't have a base personality of "utter heartless sociopath".

You're "refutation" was childish and inept and boiled down to "I WANNA HAVE IT THIS WAY SO FUCK YOU!" That you got defensive when bilateral pointed out problems is also telling.

2.) In the original material it's stated that of the countless clones there was ONE instance where clones refused to follow orders. Indoctrination wouldn't be enough to make it that effective (or if it were the Jedi would have been sufficiently on guard, which defeats the entire point). The original explanation was itself a plot hole that the chips clarified. That you're just bleating about it being a bad writing tool shows that you're putting your personal preferences above basic logic. So you cling to the plot hole.

[Gandalf]

How was the original explanation a plot hole?

[KraytKing]

1.) No I did refute it. You just keep stating that their baseline is "sociopathic monster". As bilateral pointed out if they were THAT indoctrinated from the word go they would NEVER form bonds period. And as mentioned sociopaths would get killed because of how incompetent they are, and wouldn't really grow out of it enough to form bonds (like you seem to think they would.)

Shoot, I guess we're doing it again.

Also, I would like to point out that perhaps the word "sociopathic" is wrong. I thought I had made this clear a few posts ago. They aren't medically sociopaths, that would prevent them from bonding with each other. They just come ACROSS as sociopathic to everyone who WASN'T born and raised in boot camp. They love each other, and can come to love others, but would happily nerve gas a baby in the name of victory. Not too far off from what Americans actually did in real life at My Lai, or what Nazis, Soviets, and Japanese did all the fucking time in WWII, just dialed up a bit for the sake of storytelling.

1.) Except "Brutal monsters" are by their nature utterly inept at being soldiers. Even soldiers with reputations for being killing machines (The Goumiers) had iron discipline. So having their baseline be "brutal monster" is just bad writing. Again, you fall into the "competent soldiers must be remorseless monsters" mindset.

You make a valid point that brutality is not how you win wars. It's how you win BATTLES, for sure, but not wars. But, like I said a page ago, that is the fucking point. They WILL brutalize the galaxy in order to PROVOKE revolt. The First Clone War is started by wealthy industrialists using droid armies, and they never have the power to truly threaten the Core. That is not the stuff of which dictatorships are made, particularly not racist ones. The galaxy needs to be made to fear the outlanders and the aliens, to justify an unending Imperial occupation of the Rim and unending Human High Culture. So the clones go out and fight droids, but they are so brutally cruel in their means that the people they liberate will turn on the Republic, which is what Palpatine needs. This takes it from a three year war to a fifteen year war, and allows alien internment camps to spring up in the Core.

Come back and reference that fucking paragraph, don't pretend you didn't see it like last time. To summarize again, since apparently you need to be told more than once, the clones are SUPPOSED to be more cruel than necessary, they are to DELIBERATELY lose the hearts and minds game.

So no, the clones wouldn't have a base personality of "utter heartless sociopath".

Are you saying they shouldn't have that personality for story reasons? That seems to defy internal logic. They were raised in a military camp, by soldiers, to be soldiers, I'm not sure how you can expect them to come out any differently. Sure, maybe you could say it's bad for the story, but that strikes me more as a matter of personal preference than anything I've said about brain chips.

[Gunhead]

Also, I would like to point out that perhaps the word "sociopathic" is wrong. I thought I had made this clear a few posts ago. They aren't medically sociopaths, that would prevent them from bonding with each other. They just come ACROSS as sociopathic to everyone who WASN'T born and raised in boot camp. They love each other, and can come to love others, but would happily nerve gas a baby in the name of victory. Not too far off from what Americans actually did in real life at My Lai, or what Nazis, Soviets, and Japanese did all the fucking time in WWII, just dialed up a bit for the sake of storytelling.

I would point out that whenever state led ideology is toted to troops, it is to give the soldiers a personal stake in the fight and pump up the us vs. them mentality to instill loyalty to the state. With clones this is not necessary because they are already willing to use lethal force against anyone who is targeted as being the enemy and their loyalty is also beyond question, so giving them some sort of personal reason to fight against X is only not really worth the effort but can be actively detrimental to their effectiveness as tools to aid or hinder based on the wishes of whoever is controlling them.

-Gunhead

[KraytKing]

I interpreted the Death Star not as the first victory against the Empire, but the first major victory. The Rebel Alliance has been fighting for years by then, but the most they've done is damage a Star Destroyer and retreat, or hit supply convoys, or blow up power stations. Nothing like "destroy the ultimate power in the universe." Everyone knows the Taliban killed a bunch of Americans and blew up a bunch of our shit, but it would be pretty different if they sank Gerald Ford.

As I said in a prior thread:

The opening crawl of ANH tells us that rebel spaceships just won their first victory against the Empire. That makes no sense if the rebels have been successfully defeating the Imperials for years prior to the events of Star Wars: Rogue One.

I always imagined that the Rebel Alliance was composed mainly of spies and saboteurs who would hurt the Empire covertly and expose their atrocities to the galaxy as part of their propaganda campaign. That would help to explain the erosion of the Emperor's support in both the Senate and the general populace during the 20 years between ANH and ROTS.

It would also help to explain their acquisition of military grade starships and fighters as one of the major benefits of gaining the sympathy of powerful allies.

Huh. True that.

Getting into the realm of headcanon, perhaps that line can be justified as the first action of the Rebel Alliance, which had been newly formed to try and link up what was already widespread, disorganized resistance to the New Order.

[KraytKing]

Prelude to the Second Clone War

The shortcomings of the Republic with regard to the Judicials were not limited to their equipment. Administrative capacity was a resource like any other, and it was in short supply as the former police stepped into the role of infantry in a galactic conflict. The absorption of Planetary Security Forces quickly boosted numbers, and a massive galactic recruitment drive was highly successful. But managing all of these sapients proved beyond the communications and leadership infrastructure of the Republic, and so emergency measures were taken. Local communications and administrative structures were frequently commandeered; the staff of a governor who's sector had revolted could be put to use managing reinforcement spreadsheets. Captured enemy infrastructure was used as well. To combat supply issues, local manufacturing and recruitment was adopted in many areas.

While the merging of the Judicials and the Planetary Security Forces had been intended to increase centralization, it actually had the exact opposite effect. Because of how unprepared the Republic was to manage a galactic war from the top down, authority was increasingly delegated to theater commanders. In most cases, this meant Jedi, but nearly as frequently supreme authority was given to clone marshals. Only occasionally did non-Jedi, non-clones have official overall command of a theater of operations. Functionally, however, this was not the case. The Jedi who agreed to be made theater commanders rarely did so to actually lead, but rather to curb the excesses of the soldiers under their command. The clones were not trusted by most Jedi after a year of utterly ruthless conduct on the field of battle, and so the Jedi took it upon themselves to try and control them. This meant that enlisted men functionally lead many Jedi-controlled theaters. Because of issues in establishing command structures, it was not infrequent for these men to be local authorities who had been drafted into a leadership role.

The clones, while frighteningly effective at crushing the enemy, were quickly becoming hated. Civilian casualties were always high when clones liberated planets, a byproduct of their affinity for artillery and unconventional strategies. Deliberately irradiating battlefields to damage poorly shielded droids was common, wherever Jedi weren't around. Among the Judicials, the clones were hardly any more popular. The clones saw the enlisted sapients as lesser beings, poorly trained in the best of circumstances and completely expendable. They were sacrificed with hardly a thought. Deliberately walked into ambushes as bait, abandoned in untenable defenses as a distraction, thrown against the enemy in frontal assaults to cover for clone infiltration. The friction and resentment was not limited to just the enlisted, either: officers of all stripes were coming to hate the white-armored super soldiers. The career officers hated them as teenage (at most) upstarts threatening their status, the new volunteers hated them for wasting lives, and the Jedi obviously disapproved mightily of their brutality in the name of victory.

These were all the seeds for the Second Clone War. By 996 HRE, after three years of conflict, the Corporate Alliance had been ripped apart. It had never been a proper military; its fleets were commerce raiders and upgunned freighters, its armies were repurposed mall cop droids. It never had popular support of its people; by the end, it was facing rebellions on what few worlds it still occupied. And they had never possessed the economic power to tangle with a mobilized Republic. After three years, it was a tattered mess of non-contiguous worlds, completely unable to resist except with what hardware it had stockpiled or could scrape together locally. But before the fighting fully shifted from campaigning to mopping up, communications started flying.

Beginning in 995 HRE, Darth Sidious had begun working from the shadows to push the seeds of discontent in the Judicials towards something more serious. Communications infrastructure not connected to central authority, such as that captured from the enemy or commandeered from locals, was used to begin arranging a mutiny. What began as an effort to try and get rid of the clones to save the Republic gradually shifted towards a new secessionist movement, influenced by the large amount of local recruitment from embittered populations and by Sidious himself. The watershed moment came when an entreaty was made to the remnants of the Corporate Alliance, offering to make common cause. In no position to refuse, the dying Corporate Alliance agreed.


Having a Second Clone War that stands distinct from the first, and bridges the gap between fighting droids and fighting people, is the most difficult part. I decided to make it a massive betrayal in order to justify the later creation of the ISB and other political loyalty departments, and to lay the groundwork for the betrayal of the Jedi. Perhaps, in the ideal, prosaic presentation of this story, it can be a great missed opportunity that the audience does not recognize in the moment; initially, the Judicials want to pull an Order 66 on the clones, who they see as evil to their core and opposed to the ideals of the Republic. But their movement is coopted by Sidious into becoming a new wave of secessionist nationalism, and is painted as another existential threat to the Republic instead of its salvation. This is also pulled on the audience: when the betrayal is revealed, we find ourselves rooting for the heroic clone troopers and the Jedi, only to realize in the next movie that they were the bad guys all along and we ate up the propaganda.

It is a little hard to swallow. The whole army revolts, how do they organize that? It's too big, and a huge part of the reason why it happens is the lack of ability to organize on a galactic scale--so how do the secessionists do it? This can all be handwaved as "Palpatine did it" but that's a bit of a cop out. I am very much open to suggestions on the Second Clone War. The key features are fostering distrust in the systems of the Republic, justifying a centralization of leadership, making the Jedi look bad, and making aliens at large out to be an enemy. The rest of the timeline is less fleshed out, so it should all be up soon.

[Darth Yan]

1.) No I did refute it. You just keep stating that their baseline is "sociopathic monster". As bilateral pointed out if they were THAT indoctrinated from the word go they would NEVER form bonds period. And as mentioned sociopaths would get killed because of how incompetent they are, and wouldn't really grow out of it enough to form bonds (like you seem to think they would.)

Shoot, I guess we're doing it again.

Also, I would like to point out that perhaps the word "sociopathic" is wrong. I thought I had made this clear a few posts ago. They aren't medically sociopaths, that would prevent them from bonding with each other. They just come ACROSS as sociopathic to everyone who WASN'T born and raised in boot camp. They love each other, and can come to love others, but would happily nerve gas a baby in the name of victory. Not too far off from what Americans actually did in real life at My Lai, or what Nazis, Soviets, and Japanese did all the fucking time in WWII, just dialed up a bit for the sake of storytelling.

1.) Except "Brutal monsters" are by their nature utterly inept at being soldiers. Even soldiers with reputations for being killing machines (The Goumiers) had iron discipline. So having their baseline be "brutal monster" is just bad writing. Again, you fall into the "competent soldiers must be remorseless monsters" mindset.

You make a valid point that brutality is not how you win wars. It's how you win BATTLES, for sure, but not wars. But, like I said a page ago, that is the fucking point. They WILL brutalize the galaxy in order to PROVOKE revolt. The First Clone War is started by wealthy industrialists using droid armies, and they never have the power to truly threaten the Core. That is not the stuff of which dictatorships are made, particularly not racist ones. The galaxy needs to be made to fear the outlanders and the aliens, to justify an unending Imperial occupation of the Rim and unending Human High Culture. So the clones go out and fight droids, but they are so brutally cruel in their means that the people they liberate will turn on the Republic, which is what Palpatine needs. This takes it from a three year war to a fifteen year war, and allows alien internment camps to spring up in the Core.

Come back and reference that fucking paragraph, don't pretend you didn't see it like last time. To summarize again, since apparently you need to be told more than once, the clones are SUPPOSED to be more cruel than necessary, they are to DELIBERATELY lose the hearts and minds game.

So no, the clones wouldn't have a base personality of "utter heartless sociopath".

Are you saying they shouldn't have that personality for story reasons? That seems to defy internal logic. They were raised in a military camp, by soldiers, to be soldiers, I'm not sure how you can expect them to come out any differently. Sure, maybe you could say it's bad for the story, but that strikes me more as a matter of personal preference than anything I've said about brain chips.

I've read your paragraph. I get WHY you might not like the brain chips but you also ignore a few things.

1.) Even if the cannon fodder are droids, the people leading the droids are aliens (General Greivous, Nute Gunray, Shu Mai and others). Palpatine has plenty of fodder to justify anti alien bigotry even in the current set up, and humanocentrism was stated to have been present in the Core for a LONG time.

2.) Even in the instances you cite there WERE plenty of outliers who didn't go along with it, and

3.) As Bilateral pointed out the Jedi need to trust the clones; they don't have to like them but they do need to trust them. If they were AS indoctrinated as you claim the Jedi would sense it and thus be at arms length even if they felt compelled to serve....which in turn would make Order 66 less effective. If they're seething sociopaths the Jedi will ALSO not trust them....which in turn makes Order 66 a failure

4.) If a significant number of Jedi survive Palpatine's fucked. He needs a near total wipeout and indoctrination alone is NOT going to get him there. There would be a fair sized chunk of clones who if given a choice would say "no, I'm not doing this."

Point 4 is in many ways the biggest stumbling block. In old legends there was ONE instance where the clones said no. Realistically there would be a LOT more (maybe as high as 25% of all clones saying no). That would present a real problem to Palpy since he's still trying to secure himself on the throne.

In short while indoctrination can get a lot of them it won't be enough to ensure the complete decimation Palpatine needs. The only way I can see even CLOSE to 100% compliance is if there's something like the chips.

Maybe you disagree but to me that's a stumbling block that can't be overcome

[Darth Yan]

How was the original explanation a plot hole?

Because there would be a fairly large chunk that would say "no" and unless Palpatine has a total knockout there's going to be a sizable group of Jedi who will rally to avenge their comrades. His plan only really works if 95% or so of the Jedi who haven't yet died in war are killed in Order 66. That doesn't happen unless he has some measure to force compliance

[Galvatron]

For what it's worth, the old EU addressed this in the Rise of Darth Vader novel:

“Keep still,” Sidious interrupted, “before you damage yourself all the more.” He gave Vader a moment to compose himself. “First, let me reiterate that the Jedi mean nothing to us. In having survived, Yoda and Obi-Wan aren’t exceptions to the rule. I’m certain that dozens of Jedi escaped with their lives, and in due time you will have the pleasure of killing many of them. But of greater import is the fact that their order has been crushed. Finished, Lord Vader. Do I make myself clear?”

“Yes, Master,” Vader muttered.

“In burying their heads in the sands and snows of remote worlds, the surviving Jedi humble themselves before the Sith. So let them: let them atone for one thousand years of arrogance and self-absorption.”

Is that supposed to be a plot hole?

[Darth Yan]

It does somewhat strain things a Little. The fact that only 1 clone group refused is also a stretch.

Let me put it this way. As of the Phantom Menace or Clone Wars there are 10,000 Jedi per I believe the TPM novelization, and being generous let's assume that half of them were wiped out over the Clone Wars. There would still be 5,000 or so Jedi left, and I think even dozens could potentially pose a threat if they all rose up. Palpatine isn't going to want to even ENTERTAIN that possibility