Clone Wars rewrite project

[Juubi Karakuchi]

I think we need to get past words like 'sociopathic' and 'indoctrination'. There seems to be a fixation on them, and a disagreement over what they actually mean.

When I came up with my description of the Clones' mindset - which Kraytking seems to have approved of, which I appreciate - I was trying to express how I thought their thinking might work; without them being 'sociopaths' as described here. Here's an updated version.

The Clones are not 'sociopaths' in the strict sense of the term. Sociopathy, or at least psychopathy, can be traced to neurological problems; specifically damaged or underdeveloped amygdala. Such issues, or at least thoughts and emotions deriving from them, would likely be detectable by Jedi, and have the effect Darth Yan describes. But the fact is, most of the ruthless soldiers from history that the Clones imitate - Kraytking cites the Waffen SS specifically - have not been psychopaths or sociopaths. Would that human cruelty and violence could be so easily pigeonholed. The average Mongol warrior was not a sociopath; yet the 13th century Mongol empire killed or displaced millions (depending on who you ask) and arguably destroyed entire civilisations (depending on your definition). Yet the Mongols as people were no more monstrous than anyone else, then or now.

As for indoctrination, that brings up a couple of other issues. For one, what do we mean by indoctrination? The Nazis are said to have indoctrinated their young, but they did so in fairly conventional educational environments, with Nazi doctrine being presented as fact. In AOTC we saw young Clone cadets wearing some sort of headset; hinting that maybe Flash Imprinting was being used to some extent. Funnily enough, the Sith Eternal used it on their own troopers; supposedly rendering them both well-trained and completely loyal. Too bad they only got part of one movie to show what they could do.

My understanding was that Clones, having been raised with a bare minimum of outside influences, simply are the way they are. They fight and kill without hesitation because it's normal to them, and literally all they know. They will flatten a town with artillery, or spray it with poison gas, because that's what they manual said they should do. No particular malice is necessary, or enjoyment, or even a sense of righteousness. It's what needs doing, so they do it; just as Mongol warriors burned cities and slaughtered all inside because that's what the Khan told them to do.

As for trust; that's a trickier notion than you might think. All we really need is for the Jedi to not be on their guard around the Clones; at least not so much that they would sense Order 66 in time to resist. There are any number of reasons as to why that might happen. I would argue that the Jedi would need to 'trust' the Clones up to a point, regardless of their behaviour and mindset, because otherwise they can't get anything done. It's hard to do anything if you're constantly looking over your shoulder at your own subordinates. There's also the possibility of pity or a sense of benevolence to consider. The Jedi could quite plausibly feel sorry for the Clones; bearing in mind where they came from, and what they and Jedi have in common.

This brings us to the other big issue that's cropped up; namely how many would remain loyal, and how successful does Order 66 have to be? For the first point, I do have to agree that not all the Clones would have agreed with the order; at least a substantial minority. But dissent does not have to manifest as immediate refusal and outright mutiny. Mutiny would only really be plausible if large numbers of dissenters emerged in the same place at the same time. If they were spread out, and seemingly all alone and surrounded by obedient comrades, then peer pressure would keep them quiet. If they are of a mind to lash out, it would happen later.

Also, I don't buy the idea that Order 66 has to be 100% successful first time. No plan is 100% successful, or even close. In the absence of brain chips, or even with them, it makes a lot of sense for Palpatine to have a backup plan. The obvious backup is turning the galaxy against the Jedi beforehand; thus limiting the support they can attract; but that's probably not enough on its own. The obvious alternative is another force capable of taking down any surviving Jedi; and preferably a large one. A mass army - in this case the amalgamated Judicials and PSFs - would just about fit the bill.

[Galvatron]

It's also worth mentioning that, canonically, order 66 wasn't 100% successful even with the brain chips.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

It's also worth mentioning that, canonically, order 66 wasn't 100% successful even with the brain chips.

Indeed, hence the need for someone or something else able and willing to kill large numbers of Jedi. Considering Palpatine's success rate up to that point, one would think he would have at least one such option up his sleeve.

[Galvatron]

You mean the Inquisitorius?

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Inquisitorius

[Juubi Karakuchi]

You mean the Inquisitorius?

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Inquisitorius

That's the Canon one. Though the Canon version seems to be relatively few in number. I'm not sure they could handle a large-scale Jedi survival.

The obvious alternative would be the regular Imperial Army; or the mass army made out of the combined Judicials and PSFs, as KraytKing has gone for here. It would also help if the Clones mutiny on any kind of scale.

[Galvatron]

That's probably why the Inquisitors were given command of Purge Troopers:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Purge_Trooper

Also:

Due to the nature of their mission, Inquisitors had the power to commandeer any required Imperial Military forces, and all officers were to obey their orders.

So it's not as if the Inquisitors had to go it alone against their Jedi prey.

[Gunhead]

Order 66 is a decapitation strike, there's no emphasis on killing individual Jedi as such, this is done if targets of opportunity arise (see what happens in Revenge of the Sith). The two main targets are Jedi leadership and any assets the Jedi order can call upon to support itself. If you can destroy those, individual Jedi who survive the initial attack are left without their fundamental base of material support, leadership, have no reliable source for intelligence data and without their hub for communications. Force powers and lightsabers don't mean shit if you cannot coordinate the people towards a unified goal. Now if there had been a contingency in place in case the Jedi are suddenly under attack, I'd care more about how many Jedi survive the initial attack.

-Gunhead

[Crazedwraith]

That sort of loops back to out discussion of trust. The more the jedi distrust the clones if they are obviously evil or going to back stab the jedi the more likely the jedi are to develop such contingencies.

Plus the forces, given it's clairvoyant and communication capabilities should give them C&c and coordination abilities more than standard at least theoretically it doesn't seem to work that way in canon. (Shroud of the dark side? )

Eta: canonically the idea of order 66 as a decapitation strike seems.. odd. Palpatine had wiped out a good amount of the council personally but attacked Yoda with the least force and last. You'd think he was the highest value target. Then again it could have been a deliberate nose rub and psychological thing against yoda specifically.

eta2: movie canon only wise. The two people order 66 should have wanted to kill most: Yoda in many ways the head of the order, and Obi-Wan part of the leadership council and important in keeping Anakin non-evil are the only 2 that survive.

[Gunhead]

That sort of loops back to out discussion of trust. The more the jedi distrust the clones if they are obviously evil or going to back stab the jedi the more likely the jedi are to develop such contingencies.

Yes well, I'd say the level of trust really needed to blindside the Jedi not as high as people might think. The clones, up to the point of shooting the Jedi in the back, obey orders, don't use genocidal tactics, generally maintain good order and behave as well as any troops in a conflict can. Anything more than that is good in terms of subterfuge but I wouldn't say its really necessary.

Plus the forces, given it's clairvoyant and communication capabilities should give them C&c and coordination abilities more than standard at least theoretically it doesn't seem to work that way in canon. (Shroud of the dark side? )

Meh, people harp endlessly about force this or that but in this case the waunted telepathy doesn't seem to work. I'm also pointing out that even the Jedi council used some sort of mundane communication tech in the prequels, not forgetting Yoda and Obi-Wan infiltrating the Jedi temple to disable the recall signal for all Jedi, which makes it dubious that rank and file Jedi can communicate over interstellar distances by force alone.

Eta: canonically the idea of order 66 as a decapitation strike seems.. odd. Palpatine had wiped out a good amount of the council personally but attacked Yoda with the least force and last. You'd think he was the highest value target. Then again it could have been a deliberate nose rub and psychological thing against yoda specifically.

Yes well best laid plans and all that. While missing Yoda was a mistake for sure, time proved it wasn't at all a critical one and order 66 ganked a good chunk of the rest which seems to have been enough, not to mention the part that got skewered by Spinny Palpy.

eta2: movie canon only wise. The two people order 66 should have wanted to kill most: Yoda in many ways the head of the order, and Obi-Wan part of the leadership council and important in keeping Anakin non-evil are the only 2 that survive.

Maybe, but I don't think Order 66 included minutiae such as a list of people to assassinate first, at least I don't see any evidence of such and moreover I think if Palpatine was interested in making sure Yoda dies he would have had a separate plan in place for that. Same goes for Obi-Wan too methinks.

-Gunhead

[KraytKing]

I've read your paragraph. I get WHY you might not like the brain chips but you also ignore a few things.

No, no, no. The paragraph isn't ABOUT brain chips. What are you arguing about? Yes, we disagree on the chips, but that paragraph was arguing over whether the clones being brutal killers makes them incompetent soldiers. You've said multiple times that it does, and I keep offering "that is a GOOD THING" and you keep ignoring it.

1.) Even if the cannon fodder are droids, the people leading the droids are aliens (General Greivous, Nute Gunray, Shu Mai and others). Palpatine has plenty of fodder to justify anti alien bigotry even in the current set up, and humanocentrism was stated to have been present in the Core for a LONG time.

Fuckin three people at the top isn't enough to justify top-to-bottom racism. When droids march on Humbarine, the people aren't gonna go "can I trust my Koorivar neighbor?" They're going to think "can I trust my Roomba?" He COULD use that to justify racism, but it's far from "plenty of fodder."

3.) As Bilateral pointed out the Jedi need to trust the clones; they don't have to like them but they do need to trust them. If they were AS indoctrinated as you claim the Jedi would sense it and thus be at arms length even if they felt compelled to serve....which in turn would make Order 66 less effective. If they're seething sociopaths the Jedi will ALSO not trust them....which in turn makes Order 66 a failure

Why do they have to trust them? Trusting the clones not to murder babies and trusting the clones not to turn on all of their officers at once are two totally different things.

I think the war is going to have significant effects on Jedi precognition and emotional sense. They can sense malice and hatred, sure, but on the front lines they are SURROUNDED by malice and hatred all the time. They have spent a decade or more living in a vortex of pain and anguish; honestly, it might be that schizophrenia kills more of Palpatine's enemies than the clones do. War drives US insane, and we can't actually feel the emotions and thoughts of those around us. The effect on the Jedi is going to be far worse than on anyone else, and this will be further magnified by conflicting feelings over the Jedi Code and how it deals (or doesn't) with the horrors around them.

4.) If a significant number of Jedi survive Palpatine's fucked. He needs a near total wipeout and indoctrination alone is NOT going to get him there. There would be a fair sized chunk of clones who if given a choice would say "no, I'm not doing this."

Point 4 is in many ways the biggest stumbling block. In old legends there was ONE instance where the clones said no. Realistically there would be a LOT more (maybe as high as 25% of all clones saying no). That would present a real problem to Palpy since he's still trying to secure himself on the throne.

In short while indoctrination can get a lot of them it won't be enough to ensure the complete decimation Palpatine needs. The only way I can see even CLOSE to 100% compliance is if there's something like the chips.

Maybe you disagree but to me that's a stumbling block that can't be overcome

You never did address the point I made about how discomforting the Jedi are going to be, regarding their ability to launch a coup. I think that is pretty significant, and could reduce the number of clones who refuse among those who do manage to personally connect with their Jedi. Which, as I've said, is virtually guaranteed to be a minority by virtue of differences in their dogma.

Furthermore, as myself and others have pointed out, "close to 100%" is a WIDE range. Assuming your number is correct and 25% of clones refuse to follow the order, 75% of Jedi dead, their Temple burned, and the survivors scattered and hunted is a HUGE success. Obviously you can't allow those 25% of Jedi to go on surviving, but it is an excellent starting point for day one. Then you can set up the Jedi who turned to hunt down the survivors with stormtrooper and Imperial Army support.

Others have pointed out that those who do refuse might be embedded in units who don't, and their protestations are overcome by peer pressure. I somewhat disagree with this point. I feel like it's going to be a rare thing for the men to bond with the Jedi, but when they do, it will be the whole unit. A Jedi who adapts to the horrors of war should become popular and be surrounded by men who would refuse the order. However, these are also going to tend to be the Jedi who fell to the Dark Side and don't NEED to be killed. I haven't yet decided, but I think that could be part of the plan: the Jedi who become the darkness they fight might be deliberately spared and form the Inquisition, and reduce the number of clones who struggle to turn.

[KraytKing]

That sort of loops back to out discussion of trust. The more the jedi distrust the clones if they are obviously evil or going to back stab the jedi the more likely the jedi are to develop such contingencies.

Developing contingencies also plays into Palpatine's hands in a propaganda way, I love it. If he can publicize the plans or send copies to clone commanders, well, the proof is right there. The Jedi really WERE trying to launch a coup. Even MORE of the clones will obey Order 66. Definitely going to incorporate that into the story.

Plus the forces, given it's clairvoyant and communication capabilities should give them C&c and coordination abilities more than standard at least theoretically it doesn't seem to work that way in canon. (Shroud of the dark side? )

Shroud of the Dark Side. Not just Palpatine being evil, but the whole galaxy being evil. Every drop of hatred and sadness and fear between the soldiers of both sides is going to cloak the entire war in an impenetrable shield of darkness, rendering the Jedi blind.

Eta: canonically the idea of order 66 as a decapitation strike seems.. odd. Palpatine had wiped out a good amount of the council personally but attacked Yoda with the least force and last. You'd think he was the highest value target. Then again it could have been a deliberate nose rub and psychological thing against yoda specifically.

eta2: movie canon only wise. The two people order 66 should have wanted to kill most: Yoda in many ways the head of the order, and Obi-Wan part of the leadership council and important in keeping Anakin non-evil are the only 2 that survive.

This is why I lean towards Yoda having never been a part of the Jedi Order in this version. Makes it easier to justify the Emperor and Vader paying him no mind.

[Crazedwraith]

Plus the forces, given it's clairvoyant and communication capabilities should give them C&c and coordination abilities more than standard at least theoretically it doesn't seem to work that way in canon. (Shroud of the dark side? )

Meh, people harp endlessly about force this or that but in this case the waunted telepathy doesn't seem to work. I'm also pointing out that even the Jedi council used some sort of mundane communication tech in the prequels, not forgetting Yoda and Obi-Wan infiltrating the Jedi temple to disable the recall signal for all Jedi, which makes it dubious that rank and file Jedi can communicate over interstellar distances by force alone.

Canonically that's true. We only see telepath work at quite short ranges like at Bespin though if they had done the PT differently that would easily have been explained by it being between one half-trained force user and one latent force user, not fully trained jedi.

I wasn't thinking of it as a replacement for holocomms or anything like more of an ineffable, will of the force, guiding hand type thing. But once you start arguing about the ineffable will of the force I've got to concede the practical usage is limited.

eta2: movie canon only wise. The two people order 66 should have wanted to kill most: Yoda in many ways the head of the order, and Obi-Wan part of the leadership council and important in keeping Anakin non-evil are the only 2 that survive.

Maybe, but I don't think Order 66 included minutiae such as a list of people to assassinate first, at least I don't see any evidence of such and moreover I think if Palpatine was interested in making sure Yoda dies he would have had a separate plan in place for that. Same goes for Obi-Wan too methinks.

-Gunhead

Come to think of it, presumably Palpatine didn't dial up each clone commander individually to order them one at a time but sent out a bulk message so the different times off attack could just be transmission times to different commanders and Yoda got lucky his guy had a lot of lag.

That sort of loops back to out discussion of trust. The more the jedi distrust the clones if they are obviously evil or going to back stab the jedi the more likely the jedi are to develop such contingencies.

Developing contingencies also plays into Palpatine's hands in a propaganda way, I love it. If he can publicize the plans or send copies to clone commanders, well, the proof is right there. The Jedi really WERE trying to launch a coup. Even MORE of the clones will obey Order 66. Definitely going to incorporate that into the story.

Except contingencies doesn't mean 'planning to overthrow the republic'. And the idea that Palpatine as to convince the clones as people to obey Order 66, really defeats the point of the clones. That kind of stuff is for the public at large, not his custom build, designed, trained tools for Jedi back stabbing.

The public at large is really who Palpatine has to discredit the jedi with throughout the war(s) via whatever low key not appearing to methods he can. I know you've said you view the jedi as the others with their powers and being outside the normal chain of command. But the way Obi-Wan/ANH presents it, Palpatine has got to over come the good will of being the Guardians of peace and justice for a thousand years without ever trying to overthrow/coup it or anything like. The view of the public of jedi should (again imo) be pretty positive until Palpatine tries to sabotage them.

You can present them as being less shiny to start with of course but that diminishes the tragedy of their fall.

-

It doesn't fit with any particular point of yours or Gunheads but that's why I think Palpatine really should be aiming for as high a killcount as possible in order 66 as quickly as possible, It's not just the Jedi order still existing to coordinate actively against him but their mere existence. I think they would be rallying rebellion around them much more effectively than they would in canon, just be existing and refuting Palpatine's propaganda about the order with first hand accounts.

Also why Palpatine would be using the war as an excuse to limit things like freedom of the press and speech long before he actually comes to power.

[Gunhead]

Canonically that's true. We only see telepath work at quite short ranges like at Bespin though if they had done the PT differently that would easily have been explained by it being between one half-trained force user and one latent force user, not fully trained jedi.

I wasn't thinking of it as a replacement for holocomms or anything like more of an ineffable, will of the force, guiding hand type thing. But once you start arguing about the ineffable will of the force I've got to concede the practical usage is limited.

Hmm.. I suppose one could get some good story elements if say a Jedi master who uses his last breath to warn his / her padawan to run and hide, thus set upping how now a self proclaimed Jedi is fighting the good fight against the evil empire. Not the worst idea ever.

Come to think of it, presumably Palpatine didn't dial up each clone commander individually to order them one at a time but sent out a bulk message so the different times off attack could just be transmission times to different commanders and Yoda got lucky his guy had a lot of lag.

I've always been under the impression Palpatine is just sending a blanket message when he activates order 66. As a mildly interesting side note, I have been wondering at which point did the order 66 come to be a go code to attack the Jedi. Lots of people tend to think it was built in to the clone "programming" but I'm not 100% sold on that idea. It doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things when it was done but I think it's an interesting thought exercise.

-Gunhead

[Galvatron]

Lest anyone forget, Palpatine addressed several clone commanders by name when he sent the order.

Quite frankly, I find it odd that he bothered with a voice command at all if they were all implanted with chips. Why not just transmit an electronic signal like Khan did in The Naked Gun?

[Crazedwraith]

Lest anyone forget, Palpatine addressed several clone commanders by name when he sent the order.

I had forgotten. Watching the Order 66 clip on StarWars.com doesn't have it all but it does show Palpatine in his office as he orders Cody apparently live and personally so I was wrong. Seems very inefficient regardless of chips tbh.

[Gandalf]

Lest anyone forget, Palpatine addressed several clone commanders by name when he sent the order.

I had forgotten. Watching the Order 66 clip on StarWars.com doesn't have it all but it does show Palpatine in his office as he orders Cody apparently live and personally so I was wrong. Seems very inefficient regardless of chips tbh.

Maybe Palpatine just wanted to do a few personalised ones for the Jedi who probably shit him more over the years.

[Galvatron]

I wonder if the original intention was that the order required some Sith mind trickery so that only Palpatine could give it.

[Darth Yan]

I've read your paragraph. I get WHY you might not like the brain chips but you also ignore a few things.

No, no, no. The paragraph isn't ABOUT brain chips. What are you arguing about? Yes, we disagree on the chips, but that paragraph was arguing over whether the clones being brutal killers makes them incompetent soldiers. You've said multiple times that it does, and I keep offering "that is a GOOD THING" and you keep ignoring it.

1.) Even if the cannon fodder are droids, the people leading the droids are aliens (General Greivous, Nute Gunray, Shu Mai and others). Palpatine has plenty of fodder to justify anti alien bigotry even in the current set up, and humanocentrism was stated to have been present in the Core for a LONG time.

Fuckin three people at the top isn't enough to justify top-to-bottom racism. When droids march on Humbarine, the people aren't gonna go "can I trust my Koorivar neighbor?" They're going to think "can I trust my Roomba?" He COULD use that to justify racism, but it's far from "plenty of fodder."

3.) As Bilateral pointed out the Jedi need to trust the clones; they don't have to like them but they do need to trust them. If they were AS indoctrinated as you claim the Jedi would sense it and thus be at arms length even if they felt compelled to serve....which in turn would make Order 66 less effective. If they're seething sociopaths the Jedi will ALSO not trust them....which in turn makes Order 66 a failure

Why do they have to trust them? Trusting the clones not to murder babies and trusting the clones not to turn on all of their officers at once are two totally different things.

I think the war is going to have significant effects on Jedi precognition and emotional sense. They can sense malice and hatred, sure, but on the front lines they are SURROUNDED by malice and hatred all the time. They have spent a decade or more living in a vortex of pain and anguish; honestly, it might be that schizophrenia kills more of Palpatine's enemies than the clones do. War drives US insane, and we can't actually feel the emotions and thoughts of those around us. The effect on the Jedi is going to be far worse than on anyone else, and this will be further magnified by conflicting feelings over the Jedi Code and how it deals (or doesn't) with the horrors around them.

4.) If a significant number of Jedi survive Palpatine's fucked. He needs a near total wipeout and indoctrination alone is NOT going to get him there. There would be a fair sized chunk of clones who if given a choice would say "no, I'm not doing this."

Point 4 is in many ways the biggest stumbling block. In old legends there was ONE instance where the clones said no. Realistically there would be a LOT more (maybe as high as 25% of all clones saying no). That would present a real problem to Palpy since he's still trying to secure himself on the throne.

In short while indoctrination can get a lot of them it won't be enough to ensure the complete decimation Palpatine needs. The only way I can see even CLOSE to 100% compliance is if there's something like the chips.

Maybe you disagree but to me that's a stumbling block that can't be overcome

You never did address the point I made about how discomforting the Jedi are going to be, regarding their ability to launch a coup. I think that is pretty significant, and could reduce the number of clones who refuse among those who do manage to personally connect with their Jedi. Which, as I've said, is virtually guaranteed to be a minority by virtue of differences in their dogma.

Furthermore, as myself and others have pointed out, "close to 100%" is a WIDE range. Assuming your number is correct and 25% of clones refuse to follow the order, 75% of Jedi dead, their Temple burned, and the survivors scattered and hunted is a HUGE success. Obviously you can't allow those 25% of Jedi to go on surviving, but it is an excellent starting point for day one. Then you can set up the Jedi who turned to hunt down the survivors with stormtrooper and Imperial Army support.

Others have pointed out that those who do refuse might be embedded in units who don't, and their protestations are overcome by peer pressure. I somewhat disagree with this point. I feel like it's going to be a rare thing for the men to bond with the Jedi, but when they do, it will be the whole unit. A Jedi who adapts to the horrors of war should become popular and be surrounded by men who would refuse the order. However, these are also going to tend to be the Jedi who fell to the Dark Side and don't NEED to be killed. I haven't yet decided, but I think that could be part of the plan: the Jedi who become the darkness they fight might be deliberately spared and form the Inquisition, and reduce the number of clones who struggle to turn.

1.) Because it's a fucking TERRIBLE point.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/ppxae7/ ... litary-721
https://www.quora.com/Would-psychopaths ... nd-Marines

You imagine the clones as seething sociopaths who want to kill first and foremost, and who leap to the terrible options immediately. Thing is, those guys tend not to follow orders and in military matters a soldier MUST follow orders. In your scenario the Clones would disobey the Jedi LONG before Order 66 (since again you imagine them as having different world views) and thus they'd be in no position to put Order 66 into action. So even if a Clone is willing to commit atrocities they'd be outliers or would strongly consider other options beforehand. Seeing that sometimes the Jedi's plans DO work (since oftentimes yes the riskier plan that involves not making compromises CAN often work.) Even in winning the battle sociopathy doesn't really work.

2.) Many of the worlds that join the confederacy are aliens, so that's going to be in propaganda regardless. The LEADERSHIP being almost all aliens is also going to get noticed by the common folk.

3.) Again, Palpatine's an egomaniac. He's not going to settle for anything less than a near total wipeout. To him 75% is too low. He'd want 95% at the bare minimum

Basically you fall into the Hard Man making hard decisions while hard trope. You assume that brutal monsters as a baseline are team players.

[Darth Yan]

Plus the forces, given it's clairvoyant and communication capabilities should give them C&c and coordination abilities more than standard at least theoretically it doesn't seem to work that way in canon. (Shroud of the dark side? )

Meh, people harp endlessly about force this or that but in this case the waunted telepathy doesn't seem to work. I'm also pointing out that even the Jedi council used some sort of mundane communication tech in the prequels, not forgetting Yoda and Obi-Wan infiltrating the Jedi temple to disable the recall signal for all Jedi, which makes it dubious that rank and file Jedi can communicate over interstellar distances by force alone.

Canonically that's true. We only see telepath work at quite short ranges like at Bespin though if they had done the PT differently that would easily have been explained by it being between one half-trained force user and one latent force user, not fully trained jedi.

I wasn't thinking of it as a replacement for holocomms or anything like more of an ineffable, will of the force, guiding hand type thing. But once you start arguing about the ineffable will of the force I've got to concede the practical usage is limited.

eta2: movie canon only wise. The two people order 66 should have wanted to kill most: Yoda in many ways the head of the order, and Obi-Wan part of the leadership council and important in keeping Anakin non-evil are the only 2 that survive.

Maybe, but I don't think Order 66 included minutiae such as a list of people to assassinate first, at least I don't see any evidence of such and moreover I think if Palpatine was interested in making sure Yoda dies he would have had a separate plan in place for that. Same goes for Obi-Wan too methinks.

-Gunhead

Come to think of it, presumably Palpatine didn't dial up each clone commander individually to order them one at a time but sent out a bulk message so the different times off attack could just be transmission times to different commanders and Yoda got lucky his guy had a lot of lag.

That sort of loops back to out discussion of trust. The more the jedi distrust the clones if they are obviously evil or going to back stab the jedi the more likely the jedi are to develop such contingencies.

Developing contingencies also plays into Palpatine's hands in a propaganda way, I love it. If he can publicize the plans or send copies to clone commanders, well, the proof is right there. The Jedi really WERE trying to launch a coup. Even MORE of the clones will obey Order 66. Definitely going to incorporate that into the story.

Except contingencies doesn't mean 'planning to overthrow the republic'. And the idea that Palpatine as to convince the clones as people to obey Order 66, really defeats the point of the clones. That kind of stuff is for the public at large, not his custom build, designed, trained tools for Jedi back stabbing.

The public at large is really who Palpatine has to discredit the jedi with throughout the war(s) via whatever low key not appearing to methods he can. I know you've said you view the jedi as the others with their powers and being outside the normal chain of command. But the way Obi-Wan/ANH presents it, Palpatine has got to over come the good will of being the Guardians of peace and justice for a thousand years without ever trying to overthrow/coup it or anything like. The view of the public of jedi should (again imo) be pretty positive until Palpatine tries to sabotage them.

You can present them as being less shiny to start with of course but that diminishes the tragedy of their fall.

-

It doesn't fit with any particular point of yours or Gunheads but that's why I think Palpatine really should be aiming for as high a killcount as possible in order 66 as quickly as possible, It's not just the Jedi order still existing to coordinate actively against him but their mere existence. I think they would be rallying rebellion around them much more effectively than they would in canon, just be existing and refuting Palpatine's propaganda about the order with first hand accounts.

Also why Palpatine would be using the war as an excuse to limit things like freedom of the press and speech long before he actually comes to power.

This is another point that's fair. The clones are solely for the purpose of killing Jedi. Palpatine won't GIVE them the possibility of having a choice. So no, if he has something to force obedience he's going to use it.

KraytKing's trapped in that edgy teenager mindset.

[Gandalf]

Yan, what is the purpose of quoting an article and a Quora page about sociopaths making poor soldiers in our modern context, when KraytKing has repeatedly explained that they're not soldiers like that at all?

Do you have some personal investment in the clones not being responsible for their atrocities?

[Darth Yan]

The clones he described were like that though.

I also believe that the only way order 66 would work is if there was practically no defiance at all, and indoctrination alone won’t cut it. Crazedwraith and bilateral raised the other issues I had

[Galvatron]

I'm still trying to understand why "Palpatine is an egomaniac" is some compelling argument that cockblocks everything KraytKing is proposing.

Palpatine was nothing if not patient and even tolerant when he had to be. It's why I hate it whenever the EU depicts him as some raving Saturday morning cartoon villain.

Even after the Jedi were mostly gone and he was crowned Emperor of the galaxy, he still had to put up with twenty years of political dissent from his own Senate until the Death Star became operational.

[Darth Yan]

I'm still trying to understand why "Palpatine is an egomaniac" is some compelling argument that cockblocks everything KraytKing is proposing.

Palpatine was nothing if not patient and even tolerant when he had to be. It's why I hate it whenever the EU depicts him as some raving Saturday morning cartoon villain.

Even after the Jedi were mostly gone and he was crowned Emperor of the galaxy, he still had to put up with twenty years of political dissent from his own Senate until the Death Star became operational.

The Jedi were an actual threat; the senate not so much. 25% of the Jedi being alive is enough to pose a threat to him. Less than 5% not so much

And the big problems are the ones craze wraith and bilateralrope suggested. That if they were truly as conditioned than the Jedi wouldn't trust them, and that would ruin everything.

[Gandalf]

The clones he described were like that though.

He's also positing a wholly different context to what is the article though. You are reading the thread, right?

I also believe that the only way order 66 would work is if there was practically no defiance at all, and indoctrination alone won’t cut it. Crazedwraith and bilateral raised the other issues I had

Based on?

[KraytKing]

1.) Because it's a fucking TERRIBLE point.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/ppxae7/ ... litary-721
https://www.quora.com/Would-psychopaths ... nd-Marines

You imagine the clones as seething sociopaths who want to kill first and foremost, and who leap to the terrible options immediately. Thing is, those guys tend not to follow orders and in military matters a soldier MUST follow orders. In your scenario the Clones would disobey the Jedi LONG before Order 66 (since again you imagine them as having different world views) and thus they'd be in no position to put Order 66 into action. So even if a Clone is willing to commit atrocities they'd be outliers or would strongly consider other options beforehand. Seeing that sometimes the Jedi's plans DO work (since oftentimes yes the riskier plan that involves not making compromises CAN often work.) Even in winning the battle sociopathy doesn't really work.

Basically you fall into the Hard Man making hard decisions while hard trope. You assume that brutal monsters as a baseline are team players.

Oh for God's sake, you still aren't comprehending. The "hard man" trope is a bad thing when you present them as the good guys; when Captain Price has to shoot first and get his hands dirty to keep the world free. This is not the case here. The clones are the bad guys, they are directly tied to the Empire, which exists within the story to be the perfect embodiment of all evil that can be. The narrative purpose of the clones is to be the bad option. The audience is supposed to fall for the hard man trope, thinking "the Jedi don't know how to fight" and cheering the clones on when they make the hard decisions in the name of victory, and THEN be hit with the reality: the clones, and eventually some of the Jedi, taking those "hard man" decisions were directly responsible for the rise of galactic fascism.

The rise of the Empire cannot be a railroaded event, all set in play by Palpatine and completely unavoidable. It must be caused by mistakes the characters make on screen, and all the better if the audience makes those mistakes too. We must cheer as we cheered for Upham in Saving Private Ryan when he shot a surrendering German, only unlike that film, we must then be made to see the horror of what we just celebrated.

I'll say it again. The clones must be the hard men, NOT to achieve victory, but to force the Empire to arise. They cannot make the Republic, the embodiment of good from a writer's perspective, save the galaxy through committing these horrors. The crimes of war are interwoven with the rise of fascism, and pretending the clones wouldn't commit them is a disservice to both fascism and liberalism.

And the big problems are the ones craze wraith and bilateralrope suggested. That if they were truly as conditioned than the Jedi wouldn't trust them, and that would ruin everything.

You must not be reading the thread. I addressed those contentions. Nobody responded, so I assumed I did so to their satisfaction. If you still have a problem with what I said, you should go back and point out what is wrong so I don't have to just guess and say it all again.