Rework Return of the Jedi

[Darth Yan]

1.) You're missing the point. The Dark side is SO potent at making people ambitious that unless there's something strong enough to beat them into submission they WILL try regardless of whether it's a good time simply because the power is THAT intoxicating. Vader isn't really going to consider whether or not he can replace the Emperor, nor are any Dark Jedi. THAT'S how much the dark side twists you into pursuing power. You kinda missed the biggest point about the Dark Side; at some point they WILL pursue power regardless of how much sense it makes (that's one of the reasons the Sith kept loosing; they were so focused on getting power they fucked themselves over.) Palpatine being so utterly powerful that even the most ambitious will stay their hand makes more sense.

So it actually makes perfect sense. Vader is never going to be satisfied with a functionary position; he's going to want the big seat to.

Citations needed.

1.) He tries to get Luke on his side by saying they can overthrow the Emperor. How is a single person on Vader's side (and a former enemy) suddenly going to help him gain the know how to operate a galaxy spanning government or win over the various political factions? He's clearly planning to overthrow his boss and yet he doesn't seem to have thought about the concerns you mentioned.

2.) In the prequels Anakin was planning to overthrow Palpatine as early as him being on Mustafar despite him not having any experience or support. There's no evidence he thought about the things you mentioned and he's STILL plotting to kill his boss less than a day after getting the job. Going by just the movies the only reason Anakin would jump THAT fast to wanting to dominate the galaxy is the dark side being really addictive and compelling a person to move for power.

So just going by the films yeah there's proof. That you dislike it isn't my problem.

[Darth Yan]

Declaring "Occam's Razor" and alluding to an unelaborated upon logic does not a detailed reason make, Crybaby Pisspants.

I have elaborated on it.

The Dark side amplifies things like power lust and selfishness (look at Anakin's actions after falling; he wants to overthrow Palpatine LITERALLY a day later, or how he tries to recruit Luke when Luke alone wouldn't help him be able to run the administration and infrastructure. Either he's lying or he's decided to make a play for power regardless of what would happen afterwards and needs Luke as extra muscle.

Based on that no he isn't going to be taking the long term considerations into account when making his play unless it involves whether or not he can avoid dying.

[Gandalf]

Appealing to the contents of texts which aren't canon by the nature of this scenario is an amusing move.

Also, of the examples cited, they're also easily explained by Anakin being a mixture of dangerously naive, just not too bright, or massively overconfident when the naivety wears off. All basic human qualities easily explainable without having to wacky space magic influences.

[Darth Yan]

The bits with Luke in ESB really can't though. So ESB definitely implies that and thus is indeed canon. So try again.

[Gandalf]

So are you seriously stating that dark side influence is a necessary condition for an attempted coup of a bad leader?

Right now you have vague correlation, and no causation.

[Galvatron]

I expect even more ground rules will be imposed on the next iteration of this thread...

[Darth Yan]

So are you seriously stating that dark side influence is a necessary condition for an attempted coup of a bad leader?

Right now you have vague correlation, and no causation.

1.) I'm saying it increases the likelihood of it. Vader shows repeatedly that he's far from stupid; and yet his plan for using Luke to overthrow Palpatine only works if you ignore what happens next (does Vader think he can run the infrastructure or whip others into line?). You yourself state Vader would stay his hand due to lack of ability to control infrastructure or the people beneath him.....and yet he's doing something like THAT?

The films also state that the dark side DOES influence people by amplifying their darker nature (Selfishness, anger etc), so I don't know why you're so resistant to the idea it might make Vader more compelled to seek out power logic be damned, or do the same to any other dark sider. That's part of what confuses me. You seem to not get it.

2.) Palpatine is clearly aware of dark side disturbances in ESB; if he's not a force user than he has other force users working for him. Yet Tarkin seems to think Vader's the only one active, and even if they were hidden from Tarkin it raises the question why, if the dark side amplifies selfishness, that THESE hypothetical other Dark Jedi don't also get the same idea Vader gets and make their own play for power at some point in the 20 or so years between ROTS and ANH.

3.) On a personal level Palpatine is just not that threatening if he's a vanilla mortal. Even in your outline he comes off as rather weak and pathetic, and Luke barely has a roll in Palpatine's defeat.

Basically you ignore how the Dark Side actually works in the movies (it amplifies selfishness and aggression), or how Palpatine as a vanilla mortal would be extremely weak as an antagonist. Most audience members wouldn't buy Vader just not snapping Palpatine's neck and taking over if he's a vanilla mortal.

[Gandalf]

1.) I'm saying it increases the likelihood of it. Vader shows repeatedly that he's far from stupid; and yet his plan for using Luke to overthrow Palpatine only works if you ignore what happens next (does Vader think he can run the infrastructure or whip others into line?). You yourself state Vader would stay his hand due to lack of ability to control infrastructure or the people beneath him.....and yet he's doing something like THAT?

The films also state that the dark side DOES influence people by amplifying their darker nature (Selfishness, anger etc), so I don't know why you're so resistant to the idea it might make Vader more compelled to seek out power logic be damned, or do the same to any other dark sider. That's part of what confuses me. You seem to not get it.

There's a lot of claims here. Citations needed, especially for Vader being "far from stupid," especially in the manner required an anti-Emperor coup.

2.) Palpatine is clearly aware of dark side disturbances in ESB; if he's not a force user than he has other force users working for him. Yet Tarkin seems to think Vader's the only one active, and even if they were hidden from Tarkin it raises the question why, if the dark side amplifies selfishness, that THESE hypothetical other Dark Jedi don't also get the same idea Vader gets and make their own play for power at some point in the 20 or so years between ROTS and ANH.

Palpatine manages underlings well enough to ensure autocracy. What a shocking development.

3.) On a personal level Palpatine is just not that threatening if he's a vanilla mortal. Even in your outline he comes off as rather weak and pathetic, and Luke barely has a roll in Palpatine's defeat.

And? By that rationale, Hitler isn't threatening either. It's not the person one fights. It's the persona.

Basically you ignore how the Dark Side actually works in the movies (it amplifies selfishness and aggression), or how Palpatine as a vanilla mortal would be extremely weak as an antagonist. Most audience members wouldn't buy Vader just not snapping Palpatine's neck and taking over if he's a vanilla mortal.

"Why does Luca Brasi not just snap Vito's neck and take over?"

[Darth Yan]

1.) I'm saying it increases the likelihood of it. Vader shows repeatedly that he's far from stupid; and yet his plan for using Luke to overthrow Palpatine only works if you ignore what happens next (does Vader think he can run the infrastructure or whip others into line?). You yourself state Vader would stay his hand due to lack of ability to control infrastructure or the people beneath him.....and yet he's doing something like THAT?

The films also state that the dark side DOES influence people by amplifying their darker nature (Selfishness, anger etc), so I don't know why you're so resistant to the idea it might make Vader more compelled to seek out power logic be damned, or do the same to any other dark sider. That's part of what confuses me. You seem to not get it.

There's a lot of claims here. Citations needed, especially for Vader being "far from stupid," especially in the manner required an anti-Emperor coup.

2.) Palpatine is clearly aware of dark side disturbances in ESB; if he's not a force user than he has other force users working for him. Yet Tarkin seems to think Vader's the only one active, and even if they were hidden from Tarkin it raises the question why, if the dark side amplifies selfishness, that THESE hypothetical other Dark Jedi don't also get the same idea Vader gets and make their own play for power at some point in the 20 or so years between ROTS and ANH.

Palpatine manages underlings well enough to ensure autocracy. What a shocking development.

3.) On a personal level Palpatine is just not that threatening if he's a vanilla mortal. Even in your outline he comes off as rather weak and pathetic, and Luke barely has a roll in Palpatine's defeat.

And? By that rationale, Hitler isn't threatening either. It's not the person one fights. It's the persona.

Basically you ignore how the Dark Side actually works in the movies (it amplifies selfishness and aggression), or how Palpatine as a vanilla mortal would be extremely weak as an antagonist. Most audience members wouldn't buy Vader just not snapping Palpatine's neck and taking over if he's a vanilla mortal.

"Why does Luca Brasi not just snap Vito's neck and take over?"

1.) Vader came up with the plan to have Leia escape so she could lead the revels back to the base and wasn't that surprised when she turned out to be lying about the base being on Dantooine (Whereas Tarkin WAS surprised). He also came up with the plan to take out the rebels in Episode 5 by dropping out far enough away that the rebels wouldn't detect them and then bomb them into submission (a plan that only failed because Ozzel rather stupidly went off script and tried to be intimidating).

So he's definitely fairly intelligent. The Dark Side is also described as something that's seductive and almost impossible to break free from (which is kinda like a drug, something that DOES effect a person's mental state). In real life drugs can affect someone's personality and the dark side has all the characteristics of a drug. So it increasing Vader's lust for power, anger, and arrogance isn't THAT far fetched.

2.) Except, AGAIN, dark siders are by their nature ambitious so no matter how well he manages the autocracy they WILL try to betray him and claim it for themselves. That's literally what it means to be a dark sider. That's the thing you're too pigheaded to accept.

3.) When the other big persona is as badass in the mind of the viewer as Vader yeah most people won't buy it. Lucas stated that they needed to give Vader something to turn away from to sell the redemption, and Vader turning from a guy with even more power is more believable than some random old guy.

4.) Again, Brasi's not particularly interested in power. DARKSIDERS, by their very nature, ARE interested and thus won't be satisfied the way Brasi is.

[Gandalf]

Point 1

Guy with war experience knows how to track things and not fuck up an invasion. A decent start? Not particularly relevant to the material, but feeds awesomely into the story idea of mine where the Emperor gives Vader an army in return for his fealty.

Also, that dark side quote is so vague that it could even be about academic cheating, and not putting the work in. Interestingly, when one of the key things about Force usage is about faith in a divinely ordained outcome, the nature of light and dark sides make a lot more sense. The light side is about patience, and putting oneself in God's hands. The Dark side is about impatience, and taking what one wants. If one wants power, then they can use it to get it, but one might also use the dark side to be a better pasta chef. If a Jedi wants power, they have to hope there's a divine plan. Same for pasta. They might follow the will of the force and wind up a sommelier as opposed to Iron Chef Corellian.

They say so little about the force that you can really read a lot into it. None of it contradicts my story idea, so good on me.

Point 2

That's one hell of a generalisation from two films with exactly one dark side user who has not a lot of screen time.

Point 3

Based on...? Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean others won't.

[Darth Yan]

Point 1

Guy with war experience knows how to track things and not fuck up an invasion. A decent start? Not particularly relevant to the material, but feeds awesomely into the story idea of mine where the Emperor gives Vader an army in return for his fealty.

Also, that dark side quote is so vague that it could even be about academic cheating, and not putting the work in. Interestingly, when one of the key things about Force usage is about faith in a divinely ordained outcome, the nature of light and dark sides make a lot more sense. The light side is about patience, and putting oneself in God's hands. The Dark side is about impatience, and taking what one wants. If one wants power, then they can use it to get it, but one might also use the dark side to be a better pasta chef. If a Jedi wants power, they have to hope there's a divine plan. Same for pasta. They might follow the will of the force and wind up a sommelier as opposed to Iron Chef Corellian.

They say so little about the force that you can really read a lot into it. None of it contradicts my story idea, so good on me.

Point 2

That's one hell of a generalisation from two films with exactly one dark side user who has not a lot of screen time.

Point 3

Based on...? Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean others won't.

In the context they're clearly talking about power. The Light side is a way to gain power by giving yourself over to the force, while the dark side involves seizing it all for yourself.

So it is pretty safe to say that lust for power is pretty much a job requirement for being a sith and people who are power hungry (especially when said power hunger is amplified by an evil metaphysical force pardon the pun) generally aren't satisfied with what they've got. They almost ALWAYS want more. Maybe it's me but the only thing that I can see staying Vader's hand or any other dark sider is the guy they're trying to kill having the power to smack them down.

I think the generalization is QUITE fair.

[Galvatron]

Maybe it's me but the only thing that I can see staying Vader's hand or any other dark sider is the guy they're trying to kill having the power to smack them down.

So maybe this non-Sith version of Palpatine has a kill switch for Vader's life-support.

[Gandalf]

In the context they're clearly talking about power. The Light side is a way to gain power by giving yourself over to the force, while the dark side involves seizing it all for yourself.

Many interpretations are possible. Including this one. It's also worth noting that what we hear about the force in the OT comes from two exiled institutional practitioners. Their views on the dark side might be like asking a catholic bishop about satanism.

So it is pretty safe to say that lust for power is pretty much a job requirement for being a sith and people who are power hungry (especially when said power hunger is amplified by an evil metaphysical force pardon the pun) generally aren't satisfied with what they've got. They almost ALWAYS want more.

Sith at this point is an unknown quantity. Also, how do you get to "almost always" with just one point of data?

Maybe it's me but the only thing that I can see staying Vader's hand or any other dark sider is the guy they're trying to kill having the power to smack them down.

Then you should do some reading into pretty much any autocratic regime to see how they work, especially those which run off cults of personality.

[Galvatron]

Sith at this point is an unknown quantity. Also, how do you get to "almost always" with just one point of data?

The ground rules said nothing about the prequels so I assume we're at liberty to disregard them as well.

[Darth Yan]

In the context they're clearly talking about power. The Light side is a way to gain power by giving yourself over to the force, while the dark side involves seizing it all for yourself.

Many interpretations are possible. Including this one. It's also worth noting that what we hear about the force in the OT comes from two exiled institutional practitioners. Their views on the dark side might be like asking a catholic bishop about satanism.

So it is pretty safe to say that lust for power is pretty much a job requirement for being a sith and people who are power hungry (especially when said power hunger is amplified by an evil metaphysical force pardon the pun) generally aren't satisfied with what they've got. They almost ALWAYS want more.

Sith at this point is an unknown quantity. Also, how do you get to "almost always" with just one point of data?

Maybe it's me but the only thing that I can see staying Vader's hand or any other dark sider is the guy they're trying to kill having the power to smack them down.

Then you should do some reading into pretty much any autocratic regime to see how they work, especially those which run off cults of personality.

1.) Sounds more like you're just pleading at this point. Yoda and Obi Wan are implied to largely be reliable authorities for the most part.

2.) Darksiders are not unknown quantities. And given that Yoda and Obi Wan were high up in the Jedi order they probably knew what the sith were and how they operated. Again, it sounds more like you're just engaged in special pleading. Vader's the most prominent point of data at this point so going by just the films it's a safe bet.

3.) Most autocratic regimes don't have magic users hopped up on supernatural energies that amplifies their built in lust for power. That pretty much changes the nature of the beast. Those guys are ALWAYS going to want to seize the big chair if they think they can pull it off successfully.

Again, Palpatine knows about the disturbance in Episode 5. The only way THAT makes sense if he's not force sensitive is if he has others besides Vader on call (Which seems to contradict Tarkin's confidence that Vader's the last remnant of the Jedi).

[Gandalf]

1.) Sounds more like you're just pleading at this point. Yoda and Obi Wan are implied to largely be reliable authorities for the most part.

Sure they're reliable... from a certain point of view.

2.) Darksiders are not unknown quantities. And given that Yoda and Obi Wan were high up in the Jedi order they probably knew what the sith were and how they operated. Again, it sounds more like you're just engaged in special pleading. Vader's the most prominent point of data at this point so going by just the films it's a safe bet.

That makes no sense. Apply the "most prominent therefore representative sample" rationale to other groups and see how it goes.

3.) Most autocratic regimes don't have magic users hopped up on supernatural energies that amplifies their built in lust for power. That pretty much changes the nature of the beast. Those guys are ALWAYS going to want to seize the big chair if they think they can pull it off successfully.

The wacky personality effects are still unproven, therefore irrelevant. Restating your premise isn't proof.

Again, Palpatine knows about the disturbance in Episode 5. The only way THAT makes sense if he's not force sensitive is if he has others besides Vader on call (Which seems to contradict Tarkin's confidence that Vader's the last remnant of the Jedi).

Or... Tarkin is in fact not omniscient. Which fits with his general arrogance throughout ANH.

So maybe this non-Sith version of Palpatine has a kill switch for Vader's life-support.

That would be awesome. Vader storms into Palpatine's office, and Palpatine reaches for the switch in fear that this might be the day that everything goes up in smoke. Vader pulls his lightsabre, Palpatine pushes the button. Vader falls down like RoboCop when he tries to arrest Dick Jones.

[Galvatron]

Again, Palpatine knows about the disturbance in Episode 5. The only way THAT makes sense if he's not force sensitive is if he has others besides Vader on call (Which seems to contradict Tarkin's confidence that Vader's the last remnant of the Jedi).

Or... Tarkin is in fact not omniscient. Which fits with his general arrogance throughout ANH.

For all we know, this non-Sith Palpatine may have the Star Wars equivalent of a crystal ball or magic mirror. He may have an entire trove of such relics after looting the Jedi temple.

[Darth Yan]

1.) Sounds more like you're just pleading at this point. Yoda and Obi Wan are implied to largely be reliable authorities for the most part.

Sure they're reliable... from a certain point of view.

2.) Darksiders are not unknown quantities. And given that Yoda and Obi Wan were high up in the Jedi order they probably knew what the sith were and how they operated. Again, it sounds more like you're just engaged in special pleading. Vader's the most prominent point of data at this point so going by just the films it's a safe bet.

That makes no sense. Apply the "most prominent therefore representative sample" rationale to other groups and see how it goes.

3.) Most autocratic regimes don't have magic users hopped up on supernatural energies that amplifies their built in lust for power. That pretty much changes the nature of the beast. Those guys are ALWAYS going to want to seize the big chair if they think they can pull it off successfully.

The wacky personality effects are still unproven, therefore irrelevant. Restating your premise isn't proof.

Again, Palpatine knows about the disturbance in Episode 5. The only way THAT makes sense if he's not force sensitive is if he has others besides Vader on call (Which seems to contradict Tarkin's confidence that Vader's the last remnant of the Jedi).

Or... Tarkin is in fact not omniscient. Which fits with his general arrogance throughout ANH.

So maybe this non-Sith version of Palpatine has a kill switch for Vader's life-support.

That would be awesome. Vader storms into Palpatine's office, and Palpatine reaches for the switch in fear that this might be the day that everything goes up in smoke. Vader pulls his lightsabre, Palpatine pushes the button. Vader falls down like RoboCop when he tries to arrest Dick Jones.

Out of pure curiosity.....WHY would it be such a bad thing for the dark side to amplify lust for power, or for Dark Siders to inherently want power and control to the point they'd overthrow their boss at the first opportunity? Why is Palpatine being the space wizard so bad anyway?

1.) Okay now you're just being silly. Lying aside, Obi Wan and Yoda are clearly meant to be mostly honest and reliable. So it stands to reason they'd have a pretty good understanding of the Sith and how they operate.

2.) This ignores the whole quote about the dark side being seductive, or the context CLEARLY being about power. From there you can make a good guess that darksiders are inherently hungry for power beyond just Vader. Thing about those guys? They're NEVER satisfied. They ALWAYS want more.

3.) It's pretty easy to infer based on the context of the quote and the scene.

4.) Tarkin being arrogant doesn't necessarily mean he's in the dark about the Emperor's inner workings. And contrary to what you're saying any other dark sider who was employed would ALSO get ideas and you'd have to go into detail about why that is without contradicting what Episode V implies (namely that darksiders are inherently treacherous monsters who want more power and will never be satisfied).

5.) Or Vader force just chokes him before he even pushes the button and then occupies the big chair.

[Galvatron]

A clever man might anticipate such a thing and turn the "button" into a dead man's switch. If Palpatine dies, it transmits the kill signal to Vader's life-support...

[Ralin]

Yan.

1) Your argument that the first two movies imply that any Dark Side user must be so uncontrollably power-hungry and ambitious that they can only be prevented from staging a coup by the person in charge being able to physically beat them down with their own Force powers is weird, confused and kinda dumb.

2) It is obvious to everyone but you that Gandalf is egging you on as a plausibly deniable way of trolling.

[Darth Yan]

1.) It's more that dark siders are by their nature inclined to seek power, ergo they wouldn't just be satisfied with a secondary position. They'd also want the big chair. The bit where Yoda and Luke are talking is about power, and the dark side is described as quicker and easier (ergo a quicker path to power). I think it's reasonable to assume that those who seek the dark side want power on some level.

2.) I'm aware. Gandalf is just so utterly obnoxious about it that it's hard to resist though. I'm still satisfied with how Tevar put him in his place in the WandaVision thread for being a Troll.

[Ralin]

1.) It's more that dark siders are by their nature inclined to seek power, ergo they wouldn't just be satisfied with a secondary position. They'd also want the big chair. The bit where Yoda and Luke are talking is about power, and the dark side is described as quicker and easier (ergo a quicker path to power). I think it's reasonable to assume that those who seek the dark side want power on some level.

At two movies in all we know is that the Dark Side pushes people towards being evil or is attractive to people inclined that way (or both. Probably both). It's a huge leap from that to assuming Vader must have uncontrollable betrayer tendencies as opposed to that arising out of his character and motivations specifically.

We also don't have any reason to assume Vader is powerful enough to seize control even if he is the only Force user in the Imperial government. It's not like we've seen him go toe to toe with a squad of soldiers and win or something like that. We know he probably has some ability to command people's minds, but Obi-wan straight up said that's something that mainly works on the weak-willed and you'd think the galactic Emperor and the people guarding him wouldn't qualify. If you watch Commando you don't come away thinking that John Matrix could overthrow the president and takeover if he wanted to.

That said, if I remember right the line was something about the Emperor having foreseen Luke was a threat to his rule. And that's an odd way of phrasing it if he just means "The Emperor has used his brain to conclude a new and possibly powerful Jedi would be dangerous to him, the leader of the government that tried to wipe out the Jedi."

[Ralin]

1.) It's more that dark siders are by their nature inclined to seek power, ergo they wouldn't just be satisfied with a secondary position. They'd also want the big chair. The bit where Yoda and Luke are talking is about power, and the dark side is described as quicker and easier (ergo a quicker path to power). I think it's reasonable to assume that those who seek the dark side want power on some level.

At two movies in all we know is that the Dark Side pushes people towards being evil or is attractive to people inclined that way (or both. Probably both). It's a huge leap from that to assuming Vader must have uncontrollable betrayer tendencies as opposed to that arising out of his character and motivations specifically.

We also don't have any reason to assume Vader is powerful enough to seize control even if he is the only Force user in the Imperial government. It's not like we've seen him go toe to toe with a squad of soldiers and win or something like that. We know he probably has some ability to command people's minds, but Obi-wan straight up said that's something that mainly works on the weak-willed and you'd think the galactic Emperor and the people guarding him wouldn't qualify. If you watch Commando you don't come away thinking that John Matrix could overthrow the president and takeover if he wanted to.

That said, if I remember right the line was something about the Emperor having foreseen Luke was a threat to his rule. And that's an odd way of phrasing it if he just means "The Emperor has used his brain to conclude a new and possibly powerful Jedi would be dangerous to him, the leader of the government that tried to wipe out the Jedi."

[Gandalf]

Out of pure curiosity.....WHY would it be such a bad thing for the dark side to amplify lust for power, or for Dark Siders to inherently want power and control to the point they'd overthrow their boss at the first opportunity? Why is Palpatine being the space wizard so bad anyway?

I said it was bad? You asked for people's redos of ROTJ, I made it fit in your rules, and here we are.

1.) Okay now you're just being silly. Lying aside, Obi Wan and Yoda are clearly meant to be mostly honest and reliable. So it stands to reason they'd have a pretty good understanding of the Sith and how they operate.

This assumes a lot not yet canon. Are the Sith even canonically established at this point? All we really know is that the Jedi were a thing, until the Empire came along and kicked their arses it seems. Plenty of room in the general vagueness of the OT.

2.) This ignores the whole quote about the dark side being seductive, or the context CLEARLY being about power. From there you can make a good guess that darksiders are inherently hungry for power beyond just Vader. Thing about those guys? They're NEVER satisfied. They ALWAYS want more.

Restating your premise isn't proof. If you want that to be the case for how the dark side of the Force works, just say so. But don't expect everyone else to come along on a fanfic exercise.

3.) It's pretty easy to infer based on the context of the quote and the scene.

Great. Show me your reasoning and why it seemingly excludes mine.

4.) Tarkin being arrogant doesn't necessarily mean he's in the dark about the Emperor's inner workings. And contrary to what you're saying any other dark sider who was employed would ALSO get ideas and you'd have to go into detail about why that is without contradicting what Episode V implies (namely that darksiders are inherently treacherous monsters who want more power and will never be satisfied).

I address this issue above.

5.) Or Vader force just chokes him before he even pushes the button and then occupies the big chair.

Maybe, maybe not. Sounds like it could make compelling drama. Even cooler if there's a dead man switch like Galvatron mentioned. Vader fights his way up, bursts in the door. Palpatine goes to hit the button, Vader stops him, and runs him through with a lightsabre. Vader has his moment of glory, finally free of the cruel and manipulative Emperor. The dead man switch fires, and Vader collapses with nobody around to help. He slowly chokes to death or whatever happens without his suit.

[LadyTevar]

I have received a report on Possible VENDETTA by certain people on this thread.

TAKE A TIME OUT. Otherwise I'm locking this thread because I'm not going to put up with this kind of Bullshit. And if you have to think to yourself "but, does she mean me?" YES I MEAN ALL OF YOU. If the idea of Reworking StarWars to the point Palpatine isn't a Sith upsets you, Take A Break.