Ukraine reacts to fears of Russian invasion as troops build up at the border

[Ralin]

Still think those are some pretty fucking melodramatic ways to describe two countries continuing to trade and do business.

[Gandalf]

Still think those are some pretty fucking melodramatic ways to describe two countries continuing to trade and do business.

It's weirdly reflect of US news I've seen broadcast here. They've decided that Putin is the new Hitler, and therefore the PRC has joined their Axis of Evil in not joining in the anti-Russian fervour.

[ray245]

Still think those are some pretty fucking melodramatic ways to describe two countries continuing to trade and do business.

It's weirdly reflect of US news I've seen broadcast here. They've decided that Putin is the new Hitler, and therefore the PRC has joined their Axis of Evil in not joining in the anti-Russian fervour.

Because how dare countries have vested interest that don't align with the West. No matter what Russia is doing, China will never follow the West because that would mean an end to their own legitimacy amongst the Chinese citizens for being able to resist foreign influence.

Countries do not operate on morals, but rather by interests. Morality only matters when it aligns well with interests.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Breaking news: looks like Poland will be handing their MiGs over after all.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Poland offers US all its MIG-29 fighter jets in plan to provide aircraft to Ukraine

Washington has been looking at a proposal under which Poland would supply Ukraine with Soviet-era fighters and in turn receive American F-16s to make up for their loss.

In a statement, Poland's foreign ministry said: "The authorities of the Republic of Poland, after consultations between the president and the government, are ready to deploy - immediately and free of charge - all their MIG-29 jets to the Rammstein Air Base and place them at the disposal of the government of the United States of America.

"At the same time, Poland requests the United States to provide us with used aircraft with corresponding operational capabilities.

"Poland is ready to immediately establish the conditions of purchase of the planes.

"The Polish government also requests other NATO Allies - owners of MIG-29 jets - to act in the same vein."

Security and defence analyst Michael Clarke, former director general of the Royal United Services Institute (RUSI), told Sky News: "The main thing as far as NATO is concerned is to get some aircraft into Ukraine that they can use.

"The MIG-29 is not the best aircraft around at the moment but it's better than nothing.

"NATO has been giving arms openly to Ukraine - this is just another type of weapon."

He said that with Poland handing the jets to the US at their German base, it is like Poland saying to Russia "if you want an argument about this, have it with Washington, don't have it with us".

And he added: "The main thing is for Ukrainian pilots to find a safe way to take the aircraft into Ukraine."

[Sidewinder]

It's weirdly reflect of US news I've seen broadcast here. They've decided that Putin is the new Hitler, and therefore the PRC has joined their Axis of Evil in not joining in the anti-Russian fervour.

Tell me about it. The New York Times seems determined to make China an American puppet; Facebook has people calling for China to fight against "Russian fascists" in Ukraine- as if Chinese people should fight and die for their own enemies' glory! (Read about the Eight-Nation Alliance, which pillaged Northern China during the Boxer Rebellion. Even Taiwan is still salty about that.)

Behavior like this is more likely to drive China and Russia closer together, if only out of spite.

[ray245]

How is flying in the planes unarmed and shipping in their weapons seperately going to be any less provocative?

It might not be, but I suspect that it will be a term attached to sending planes over if they do get sent. Nobody wants to give Russia an excuse to point fingers and say that a NATO or EU country has crossed the line. Would unarmed jets be under that line? I can't say, but it seems like the world's support for Ukraine is as low-key and deniable as possible.

I could be wrong, but as I've said, I don't see many credible sources who think fighter jets to Ukraine are all that plausible and it's not just an issue of finding somebody willing to send jets their way.

-----

Shep, what are your thoughts on the plausibility of Polish jets ending up being shipped to Ukrainian airbases? You're probably the most tuned into that side of things of anybody here.

You're wrong yet again.

Poland is now giving the Jets.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... us-ukraine

Poland requests the United States to provide us with used aircraft with corresponding operational capabilities,” Rau said in a statement on his ministry’s website. “Poland is ready to immediately establish the conditions of purchase of the planes.”

[Jub]

You're wrong yet again.

Poland is now giving the Jets.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... us-ukraine

I literally said I could be wrong and that I was just reporting what I'd heard. So take your vendetta, shove it up your ass, and go back to cowering under your desk waiting for the nukes to fly.

[ray245]

You're wrong yet again.

Poland is now giving the Jets.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... us-ukraine

I literally said I could be wrong and that I was just reporting what I'd heard. So take your vendetta, shove it up your ass, and go back to cowering under your desk waiting for the nukes to fly.

You're the one dismissing what I said in the first place when all the suggestions comes from actual plausible sources.

And you're back once again with the nukes. It seems you're almost eager for nukes to fly.

[Broomstick]

The great irony in this whole mess is that in it’s quest to regain a client state, Russia itself may end up ruining itself and becoming a client state.

Karma is a bitch.

[Ralin]

No matter what Russia is doing, China will never follow the West because that would mean an end to their own legitimacy amongst the Chinese citizens for being able to resist foreign influence.

Really? Because I haven't seen any evidence that most Chinese citizens support Russia in all this. Most of what I've seen is a combination of concern for Ukrainian civilians, general calls for an end to fighting and some fairly strained attempts at both sides-ing the whole thing.

[Highlord Laan]

Breaking news: looks like Poland will be handing their MiGs over after all.

Nope. Uhmurrika choked on that, too.

Pentagon says Polish proposal to transfer jets to US to give to Ukraine isn't 'tenable'

Don't expect, let alone hope, for anything more than has already occurred. Also remember that after the fifth column party puts the fascists back in control after the midterms, all forms of aid and support to Ukraine will cease and uhmurrika will switch to backing the fascists' beloved big daddy poot-poot. Business will resume and sanctions will be lifted.

[Sidewinder]

No matter what Russia is doing, China will never follow the West because that would mean an end to their own legitimacy amongst the Chinese citizens for being able to resist foreign influence.

Really? Because I haven't seen any evidence that most Chinese citizens support Russia in all this. Most of what I've seen is a combination of concern for Ukrainian civilians, general calls for an end to fighting and some fairly strained attempts at both sides-ing the whole thing.

Where are you looking for evidence, and what kind of "Chinese citizens" are you looking at- those from the People's Republic of China (Mainland China), or from the Republic of China (Taiwan)? Those on Reddit's Sino subreddit tend to support Russia out of spite for the US, i.e., they're not necessarily pro-Russian, they're definitely more anti-American. China-Arms has a recent article claiming Chinese people are buying from Russian online stores to show support; the same website has another from January, claiming Chinese people demand their government transfer assault rifles and UAVs to Ukraine, in retaliation for Russian exports of assault rifles to India.

[Ralin]

Where are you looking for evidence, and what kind of "Chinese citizens" are you looking at- those from the People's Republic of China (Mainland China), or from the Republic of China (Taiwan)?

Chen Weihua on Twitter, South China Morning Post and random locals on social media. Not anything like exhaustive or scientific, I admit.

[Broomstick]

I get the sense that China largely wants to sit this one out and observe, not having any real interest in Ukraine themselves and really not wanting WWIII to come out of this. I don't think China is a friend to either Russia or the US, although they might incline slightly towards Russia due to similarities in their governments/governance systems at this point.

China would not hesitate to throw Russia under a bus if they deem it in their interests. And they feel the same about the US.

[Col. Crackpot]

I get the sense that China largely wants to sit this one out and observe, not having any real interest in Ukraine themselves and really not wanting WWIII to come out of this. I don't think China is a friend to either Russia or the US, although they might incline slightly towards Russia due to similarities in their governments/governance systems at this point.

China would not hesitate to throw Russia under a bus if they deem it in their interests. And they feel the same about the US.

China is looking forward to Russia’s future subservience in its new role as Beijing’s bitch.

[ray245]

I get the sense that China largely wants to sit this one out and observe, not having any real interest in Ukraine themselves and really not wanting WWIII to come out of this. I don't think China is a friend to either Russia or the US, although they might incline slightly towards Russia due to similarities in their governments/governance systems at this point.

China would not hesitate to throw Russia under a bus if they deem it in their interests. And they feel the same about the US.

They do have interest in Ukraine actually. Ukraine was one of the major end point for their belt-and-road initiative.

I think Chinese investment in Ukraine is higher than their investment in Russia.

[bilateralrope]

Chernobyl plant disconnected from power grid; Ukraine demands cease-fire for urgent repairs

Adela Suliman and David L. Stern
02:11, Mar 10 2022

Ukraine's closed Chernobyl nuclear power plant has been disconnected from the nation's power grid by Russian forces, Ukraine's state-owned grid operator Ukrenergo said on Wednesday, potentially jeopardizing the cooling of nuclear fuel still stored at the site.

"Because of military actions of Russian occupiers the nuclear power plant in Chornobyl was fully disconnected from the power grid. The nuclear station has no power supply," Ukrenergo said in a statement on its official Telegram page, using Ukraine's spelling for the plant.

Electricity is needed for cooling, ventilation and fire extinguishing systems at the closed site. In a statement on its Facebook page, Ukrenergo also said emergency diesel generators have been turned on but that fuel would last for only 48 hours.

Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba demanded a cease-fire with Russia to allow repairs on Wednesday.

"The only electrical grid supplying the Chornobyl NPP and all its nuclear facilities occupied by Russian army is damaged," he tweeted. "I call on the international community to urgently demand Russia to cease fire and allow repair units to restore power supply."

He warned that after reserve diesel generators run out of fuel, "cooling systems of the storage facility for spent nuclear fuel will stop, making radiation leaks imminent. Putin's barbaric war puts entire Europe in danger."

Ukrainian Energy Minister Herman Halushchenko said on Wednesday, according to Reuters, that authorities do not know what the radiation levels are at the Chernobyl power plant and have no control over what is happening at the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, Europe's largest nuclear plant, which was seized by Russian forces last week.

The International Atomic Energy Agency says it has lost contact with monitoring systems that transmit data on nuclear material from the Chernobyl nuclear power plant.

The UN nuclear watchdog's director general "indicated that remote data transmission from safeguards monitoring systems installed at the Chornobyl NPP had been lost," the IAEA said in a statement Tuesday.

"The Agency is looking into the status of safeguards monitoring systems in other locations in Ukraine and will provide further information soon," it added.

Ukrainian presidential adviser Mykhailo Podolyak tweeted Wednesday that the IAEA had "unexpectedly lost connection" with the monitoring systems, calling it an "extremely dangerous situation."

The Chernobyl nuclear power plant, then under the Soviet Union's control, was the scene of a 1986 disaster when explosions and fires sent a huge radioactive cloud over parts of Europe and left contaminated soil and other fallout, which remains dangerous.

The catastrophe ranks as the world's worst nuclear power plant accident.

Last month, the Russian Defence Ministry confirmed that its forces had taken control of the area near the power plant site as part of Russia's wider invasion of Ukraine, sparking global alarm.

The IAEA this week reiterated an offer to both sides for the director general to travel to Chernobyl and other sites in Ukraine to help protect nuclear facilities amid the conflict.

The Chernobyl zone, one of the most radioactively contaminated places in the world, has remained closed since 1986, although a small number of people still live in the area - mostly elderly Ukrainians who refused to evacuate.

The building containing the exploded reactor from 1986 was covered in 2017 by an enormous shelter aimed at containing radiation still leaking from the accident. Robots inside the shelter work to dismantle the destroyed reactor and gather up radioactive waste. It's expected to take until 2064 to finish safely dismantling the reactors.

IAEA Director General Rafael Grossi said Ukrainian authorities have told the agency that it was "increasingly urgent" to rotate out the Chernobyl plant's 210 technical employees and guards to ensure "safe management" amid "worsening" conditions. They have been working at the plant since Russian forces took control.

"I'm deeply concerned about the difficult and stressful situation facing staff at the Chornobyl nuclear power plant and the potential risks this entails for nuclear safety," Grossi said. "I call on the forces in effective control of the site to urgently facilitate the safe rotation of personnel there."

This is not looking good.

[Solauren]

That's it.
This is what Putin wanted.

He's got the Ukraine, and indeed a good chunk of Europe and Asia by the balls now. With those plants in trouble, he can force a shut down of them, and have the Ukraine and part of europe totally reliant on Russian fuel and energy exports.

This was never about conquest or expansion or any of the other stuff Putin has been claiming.

It's about selling out as much natural gas and fuel as possible, at as high a price as possible, before the world converts over to other fuel sources.

[Col. Crackpot]

That's it.
This is what Putin wanted.

He's got the Ukraine, and indeed a good chunk of Europe and Asia by the balls now. With those plants in trouble, he can force a shut down of them, and have the Ukraine and part of europe totally reliant on Russian fuel and energy exports.

This was never about conquest or expansion or any of the other stuff Putin has been claiming.

It's about selling out as much natural gas and fuel as possible, at as high a price as possible, before the world converts over to other fuel sources.

^^^^That is solid analysis.

[Dark Hellion]

Show your work on this. What I have seen suggests that Putin and Russia have been rather blindsided by the extent of western unity and sanctions. Their credit rating has been decreased to basically imminent default, the ruble has lost what 30 or 40 percent of it's value in a week and the ability to exchange money has been extremely limited since much of their foreign currency reserves have been frozen.

This feels more like a desperate backup for what was supposed to be an easy imperialist jaunt that has been totally derailed by the absolutely amateur performance of the Russian military.

Also for the people who keep wanting us or NATO intervention remember that in a nuclear war casualties are measured in megadeaths. While it sucks that much of the West has to sit back and watch atrocities committed; unless we are 100% sure Russia will not use nukes are you willing to risk all of human civilization so you don't have to feel bad about the images you see?

This isn't a video game. Russia doesn't just win if they get a soldier into Kyiv. Artillery doesn't just kill a set number a people a round like civ. A no fly zone isnt just some gm clicking on a region and Russian jets just can't fly there. There are very real consequences to every action and while things may not be moving as fast as we would like; caution and prudence will save far more lives than reckless haste to assuage our feelings.

[Dark Hellion]

Double post

[Col. Crackpot]

https://www.axios.com/mariupol-shelling ... ec036.html

Mariupol Childrens Hospital has been destroyed by shelling.

I’m starting to think it’s time to consider more active intervention. This is a crime against all of humanity…

[Jub]

You're the one dismissing what I said in the first place when all the suggestions comes from actual plausible sources.

And you're back once again with the nukes. It seems you're almost eager for nukes to fly.

You're the one so terrified you try to tone police Ukrainian politicians and the members on a message board because you fear that, somehow, we'll vote for Trump 2.0 because of reasons.

Also, as has been posted by Laan:

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/08/politics ... index.html

It's almost like getting the jets into Ukraine is a big issue. Who's been saying this since the idea was first floated?

[Crazedwraith]

West Fears Russia could use non-conventional weapons

Western officials have said they are "very concerned" about the risk of escalation in the war between Russia and Ukraine.

They are particularly concerned about the possibility of Russia using non-conventional weapons, they say.

This most likely refers to chemical weapons although the term also covers tactical (small-scale) nuclear weapons, biological weapons and dirty bombs.

"We've got good reason to be concerned," said one Western official.

They said this was partly because of what had been seen in other places where Russia has been engaged in conflict, notably Syria where chemical weapons were used by its allies.

Officials also pointed to some of the disinformation and claims coming from Russia as potentially "setting the scene" for some kind of "false flag" claim that the Ukrainians had used them - or developed weapons.

In a tweet, the Russian Embassy referred to claims made by their foreign ministry spokeswoman that "recently found documents" showed components of biological weapons were made in Ukrainian laboratories - with funding from the US Department of Defense.

Russian officials and media have also claimed in recent days that Ukraine was planning to build a so-called dirty bomb - which disperses radioactive material.

Meanwhile Russia's foreign minister has claimed Ukraine had been seeking nuclear weapons.

Some believe Moscow is pushing these claims to come up with a justification for its own public about why it invaded Ukraine.

But Western officials also fear they could be used as the basis for a "false flag" event - perhaps claiming any dispersal of non-conventional weapons came from Ukrainian facilities or troops or they were used first by Ukraine to justify the subsequent use of non-conventional weapons by Russia.

The Western official said similar stories had come from Russia before their use in Syria.

There were "other indications as well", they said - likely referring to some kind of intelligence. "It's a serious concern for us."

The global watchdog that oversees the Chemical Weapons Convention - the OPCW - describes a chemical weapon as a chemical used to cause intentional death or harm through its toxic properties.

Their use is banned under international humanitarian law regardless of a valid military target because their effects are indiscriminate by nature and designed to cause superfluous injury and unnecessary suffering.

On the one hand none of this changes the cold calculus of 'no one wants global nuclear war' but there still the question of how far can russia go before we're there anyway? do chemical weapons count? [they were considered a red line in syria but nothing much happened when said red line was crossed) do dirty bombs count? tac nukes?