Picard - general discussion [spoilers]

[His Divine Shadow]

Gotta say it feels really obvious by now that the whole picard show is just a really blatant and shameless money grab based on name recognition.

[Solauren]

Gotta say it feels really obvious by now that the whole picard show is just a really blatant and shameless money grab based on name recognition.

How is it a money grab?

[Crazedwraith]

The flashforward thing gets even more annoying about pointless if you keep doing it repeatedly during the episode. Did this one just come in really short or something? Needed the padding?

Reading TVtropes other have noticed this, and that Seven was given almost nothing to do this episode. They short changed in season 1 as despite her being presumably intended as a big draw. (And the plot points and characters she did have were enough to fill their own series if not skated over) Oh and they've gone back to not acknowledging Seven's met the Qs before. Sure she doesn't know him nearly as well as Picard but just brining it up would have filled another minute or two. You're not hurting for time!

So big takes away: Renee is saved for the moment, Agnes is now the Queen and maybe next episode will finally deal with Picard's flashbacks.

[Tribble]

The flashforward thing gets even more annoying about pointless if you keep doing it repeatedly during the episode. Did this one just come in really short or something? Needed the padding?

Reading TVtropes other have noticed this, and that Seven was given almost nothing to do this episode. They short changed in season 1 as despite her being presumably intended as a big draw. (And the plot points and characters she did have were enough to fill their own series if not skated over) Oh and they've gone back to not acknowledging Seven's met the Qs before. Sure she doesn't know him nearly as well as Picard but just brining it up would have filled another minute or two. You're not hurting for time!

So big takes away: Renee is saved for the moment, Agnes is now the Queen and maybe next episode will finally deal with Picard's flashbacks.

Saving Renee is all well and good, though Picard should know by now that when dealing with Q one has to look at the cause and not just the symptoms.

Q is clearly unwell and genuinely furious at Picard about something. Apparently whatever it was screwed things up enough that Q can't undo it on his own, only try to hold things together as long as he can. Hell, Q indicated that the change in the timeline was a penance for Picard rather than the cause of the problems, and even offered to help Picard sort it out. One would think that's a good indicator to Picard that something has gone terribly wrong and he'd better damn well pay attention to what Q has to say.

So naturally, Picard does the exact opposite and refuses to cooperate. And so far is only looking at the changes Q made, not why he made it. Or what the bigger problem might be.

At least Q expected that response and called him out on it.

[Crazedwraith]

Saving Renee is all well and good, though Picard should know by now that when dealing with Q one has to look at the cause and not just the symptoms.

Q is clearly unwell and genuinely furious at Picard about something. Apparently whatever it was screwed things up enough that Q can't undo it on his own, only try to hold things together as long as he can. Hell, Q indicated that the change in the timeline was a penance for Picard rather than the cause of the problems, and even offered to help Picard sort it out. One would think that's a good indicator to Picard that something has gone terribly wrong and he'd better damn well pay attention to what Q has to say.

So naturally, Picard does the exact opposite and refuses to cooperate. And so far is only looking at the changes Q made, not why he made it. Or what the bigger problem might be.

At least Q expected that response and called him out on it.

I'm certainly expecting a twist in the style of AGT where Q's trying to save the day and Picard trying to stop the confed time line is actually what creates it somehow.

As I mentioned at the time Picard's characterisation where he's cautiously open the borg but loses his shit completely when Q appears is... odd.

[Crazedwraith]

They at last seem to be trying to figure out Q and his motives, Tribble.

Also Picard has a head Baltar which is never a good sign. It's a nice twist that his dad is possible not the monster and it's his mother had issues he was never fully aware of. Fully expecting more footwear to fall on this though.

A bit more for Seven this week and a funny meta conversation with Raffi about their ship compared to Rios/Jurati. And they at least figure out what's up with Jurati.

I like Rios and the doctor, but beaming her back to (the alt) La Sirena was a bit out of nowhere. Also more TVH references.

All in all, it's still feels like a middle of the show episode but still feels like it moves more than the last couple.

eta: Oh and meaningless fanboy stuff: Head Baltar's starfleet uniform looked like bad cosplay. A variation on the tng movie/late ds9 uniform. But no ribbing on the shoulder and addition coloured section on the undershirt. I wonder if that was intentional or not.

[Crazedwraith]

So they threw in a Q and The Grey reference but nothing for Survival Instinct where Seven assimilated her own little collective to not feel alone. Feels like that one would have been relevant.

Episode does feel like it moved things along. Q reveals some of his motivation to Guinan. The Queen allies with Soong to get back to ship to go on an assimilation spree. Rios... kisses the doctor. (I like them but there plot line doesn't seem to say as much as when it started with the ICE Stuff.)

I can't remember enough of s1 to know if Raffi really shows a consistent character trait of being manipulative but the flashback with Elnor was pretty good. With his continued appearances I'm pretty sure he's coming back, if only when the timeline is restored. Still, like I said the start, Borg nanoprobes can necromance people (like neelix) it would be an interesting manipulative for the queen to nanoprobe his corpse when she gets back to the ship.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I had high hopes for this season after episode 2. I was disappointed in episode 3, but still hopeful. Now, I'm just massively disappointed. It appears that the writers haven't seen Time's Arrow although it could be that Guinan didn't recognize Picard until he said his name. Either way, it is really hard for me see this Guinan as Guinan. It isn't just the looks, her mannerisms are just off. She was around when Americans were a lot more racist and NOW she is just so disgusted with humanity that she has to leave? I'm not one of these anti-SJW dipshits, but I feel that the writers desire to do politics is ruining the show. I don't necessarily mind inserting politics here and there, but don't do it at the expense of the story. Make it interesting.

What gets me is that Whoopi Goldberg did reprise her role for the 25th century so it's not like she wouldn't have been available for this episode. Unless of course, that wasn't the real Guinan.

[Batman]

Possibly they thought digitally deaging her wouldn't be convincing.This IS a much younger Guinan. She shouldn't look any older than she did during the TNG run.For 25th century her they weaseled out by claiming she 'decided' to look older.21st century Guinan should look just like 19th/23rd/24th century Guinan and the actress no longer does.

[Crazedwraith]

Yeah they de-aged John De Lancie for like a couple of seconds and it wasn't that convincing, no way they could afford to de-age Whoopi for big parts of episodes.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Yeah they de-aged John De Lancie for like a couple of seconds and it wasn't that convincing, no way they could afford to de-age Whoopi for big parts of episodes.

Then they explained his looking older in exactly the same way they did with Guinan.

[Batman]

Q had a 'reason' to want to look older. Why would 21st century Guinan when 23rd/24th century her did not?

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Probably due to budget reasons they decided not to deage Whoopi Goldberg and instead cast some random black woman who looks nothing like her and try to convince us it's the same person without even dubbing her voice. And for that matter, have Alice Krige voice the Borg Queen again like she did in Lower Decks.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I see they brought Brent Spiner in to play another Doctor Soong, as well as sprinkle a few more hints about the Eugenics Wars as well.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Someone clearly didn't do their research on batteries- Borg!Jurati was looking for lithium-ion batteries, such as those found in mobile phones. She then proceeds to open up a bunch of car engine batteries. Car batteries aren't lithium-ion, they are lead acid. She would have been better off seeking out electric vehicles, for their batteries are lithium-ion.

[Crazedwraith]

So I don't think the other shoe dropped about Picard's mum is really unexpected or a twist just more or less the logical conclusion.

The action of the episode was eh. Don't have them say it's impossible to run across open fields to it. (which is true) and then have Seven and Raffi manage it without problem.

I noticed she was getting bloody in the same pattern as her implants just before she was re-borged.

It was a good episode for the Voyager references I've been wanting. Or rather post series reference: Seven did want to continue in Starfleet but they wouldn't let even with Janeway going to bat for her.

The other reference I noticed was one of the models young Picard has was the proposed Enterprise Series 5 NX class refit with secondary hull.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

They did manage to get in an Enterprise reference with Renée Picard talking about the OV-165, a shuttle that appeared in the opening credits of that series.

Harking back to season 1, they had the Borg assimilate the Spatial Trajector tech from the Sikarians featured in "Prime Factors" and adapted it so that it could be used away from the planet, something that the Voyager crew was never able to do.

[bilateralrope]

I think we might have an answer to why the Borg wanted to join the Federation in the first episode. It wasn't the Borg collective we all knew, but the Jurati-led Borg faction. One that has spent centuries in hiding.

But what else is Q trying to accomplish here ?

[Crazedwraith]

I think we might have an answer to why the Borg wanted to join the Federation in the first episode. It wasn't the Borg collective we all knew, but the Jurati-led Borg faction. One that has spent centuries in hiding.

But what else is Q trying to accomplish here ?

Yep. Which also explains the new design that queen had covering her face.

[Tribble]

I think we might have an answer to why the Borg wanted to join the Federation in the first episode. It wasn't the Borg collective we all knew, but the Jurati-led Borg faction. One that has spent centuries in hiding.

But what else is Q trying to accomplish here ?

Yep. Which also explains the new design that queen had covering her face.

So far it looks like Picard initially blew himself up along with the fleet because he had mommy issues? Which he wasn’t supposed to do?

And Q is trying to fix Picard’s mommy issues, stop Picard’s suicide and finally spice up Picard’s sex life before dying?

As to why Q is dying, looks like it’s due to John De Lancie’s valiant efforts to keep things interesting and move the plot forward reasonz. Turns out even the Q have limits.

[Tribble]

If I were really generous, maybe this has to do with Q’s spur of the moment decision to introduce the Federation to the Borg in “Q-Who”. IIRC it was heavily implied by Guinan (who as we’ve seen is time aware) that Q had changed the course of history by doing so:

Guinan: Q set of series of events into motion, bringing your contact with the Borg much sooner than it should have come. Now, perhaps when you’re ready, it may be possible to establish a relationship with them. But for now, for right now, you’re just raw material to them. Since they are aware of your existence…

Picard: … they will be coming.

Guinan: you can bet on it.

Picard: … Maybe Q did the right thing for the wrong reason.

Guinan: How so?

Picard: Well, perhaps what we most needed was a kick in our complacency, to prepare us for what lies ahead.

Assuming that the original course of events did not include the subsequent Borg encounters / time travel paradoxes in TNG, STFC, Voyager and ENT... Q made one hell of a mess. Maybe this is his attempts to make amends and patch things up between the Federation and the Borg.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I thought the implication was that they were saying the Borg and Federation weren't so different because they both like to assimilate other cultures into their collective.

Alison Pill in the red dress. I don't think I've ever seen that much jiggle in an episode of Star Trek!

[Tribble]

I thought the implication was that they were saying the Borg and Federation weren't so different because they both like to assimilate other cultures into their collective.

Alison Pill in the red dress. I don't think I've ever seen that much jiggle in an episode of Star Trek!

I always preferred the Borg more as a force of nature than “Queen is lonely and just wants friends / lovers”

At least Jurati pointed out the inefficiency of trying to assimilate everyone left and right via brute force - not only do you end up destroying a lot of what you are trying to gain in the process, but eventually everyone will treat you as an existential threat to be stopped at all costs.

That being said I still have no clue what the moral of this story is so far

[Batman]

Neither do the makers I suspect

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I thought the implication was that they were saying the Borg and Federation weren't so different because they both like to assimilate other cultures into their collective.

Alison Pill in the red dress. I don't think I've ever seen that much jiggle in an episode of Star Trek!

I always preferred the Borg more as a force of nature than “Queen is lonely and just wants friends / lovers”

At least Jurati pointed out the inefficiency of trying to assimilate everyone left and right via brute force - not only do you end up destroying a lot of what you are trying to gain in the process, but eventually everyone will treat you as an existential threat to be stopped at all costs.

That being said I still have no clue what the moral of this story is so far

Exactly like Russia then