Ukraine reacts to fears of Russian invasion as troops build up at the border

[ray245]

I assume they mean under Trump but I don't think he'd have done more than turn a blind eye to russia's activities.

Correct. And you might well be right, but I don't think we could have ruled it out. Especially in light of the fact the Ukrainian government told him to go pound sand when he asked them to help defame Biden's son. And even if Trump wasn't quite willing to go to war to get revenge for a personal slight... Well, at the risk of going off on a bit of a tangent, that leads into the main reason I'm questioning the continued utility of NATO...

The continued utility of NATO is why Ukraine got invaded rather than let it become NATO, it's why Ukraine got invaded and not say Poland or any other NATO country. I'm not seeing this situation as undermining the need for NATO at all.

Ukraine is holding them off and massive cost to themselves in military and civilian personnel, that's not the ideal situation for them.

Well, there is also the issue that Russian considers Ukraine to be an integral part of their empire ( whether that is true is another debate), and while the Soviet Union exercised a huge deal of control over Poland during the Cold War, Poland is still considered another country.

The fear of allowing Ukraine to be part of NATO is bigger than the fear of allowing Poland to be part of NATO.

[Captain Seafort]

Well, there is also the issue that Russian considers Ukraine to be an integral part of their empire ( whether that is true is another debate), and while the Soviet Union exercised a huge deal of control over Poland during the Cold War, Poland is still considered another country.

The fear of allowing Ukraine to be part of NATO is bigger than the fear of allowing Poland to be part of NATO.

What about those countries that were part of the Russian Empire once upon a time? Latvia. Lithuania. Estonia. All NATO members. Finland. Looking like it will be joining NATO soon before Vlad gets any ideas in their direction.

[ray245]

Well, there is also the issue that Russian considers Ukraine to be an integral part of their empire ( whether that is true is another debate), and while the Soviet Union exercised a huge deal of control over Poland during the Cold War, Poland is still considered another country.

The fear of allowing Ukraine to be part of NATO is bigger than the fear of allowing Poland to be part of NATO.

What about those countries that were part of the Russian Empire once upon a time? Latvia. Lithuania. Estonia. All NATO members. Finland. Looking like it will be joining NATO soon before Vlad gets any ideas in their direction.

The Soviets did try and subjugate Finland during the Winter War. But Ukraine is much larger and have a stronger connection for Russians. After all, Kiev is considered where the origins of the Russian people supposedly began.

[Tribble]

Who have you got in mind for helping you defend yourselves against the Americans? They're about the only credible threat left at this point, and this only stays a hypothetical question if the Republicans don't manage to put someone even worse in the White House next time.

Bear in mind the only reason the USA is the only credible threat… is because the US simply won’t allow another country onto North American soil and is willing to defend us regardless of what we do (since they know that we are not a remote threat to them).

While Canada is a technically a separate country politically and economically we are more or less a de facto US territory already (albeit an overall more left leaning one than you’d think Americans would tolerate). We probably don’t make enough fuss to get noticed most of the time, so they simply don’t care and are content to leave things be. But announce that we are withdrawing from NATO / NORAD??? That would change their attitude real quick.

Theoretically speaking we are more than capable of defending ourselves if we put our mind to it, including building a nuclear deterrent… but majority of modern Canadians* seem to be under the impression that they don’t need it cause America will always be there to save the day, so why waste the money? And plus, give peace a chance and all that.**

And ya, should America choose to formally annex Canada one day, the way things stand now we’d be stomped flat in hours. And no chance in hell another country would come to the rescue, so we may as well try to stay on their good side.

*previous generations would (and did) fight tooth and nail to stop American invasions, there are reasons why Canada remained separate afterall. Baby boomers onwards, not so much.

**Our modern “we’re non violent peacekeepers” ideology is rather at odds with a most of our history.

[LadyTevar]

Yeah.. Back in the 1800s, the US went and burn down a few forts on the Canadian Side, when y'all were still very much British-owned.

Y'all came back and burnt Washington DC, and only left because a Hurricane hit DC.

I think both the Americans and Canadians have forgotten that little fact.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/russia-storming-steel-plant-protecting-hundreds-of-civilians-in-mariupol/ar-AAWSw0j?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=72d253888e3e4778af4c71b27222ad35

Russian forces are storming a steel plant seen as the last stronghold for defenders of Mariupol, Ukrainian soldiers say.

The move comes almost two weeks after President Vladimir Putin ordered his military not to storm the final pocket of resistance in the city – and instead block it off.

Despite a number of civilian evacuations in recent days, Ukraine’s deputy prime minister Iryna Vereshchuk claimed earlier that a few hundred civilians remain at the Azovstal steel plant.

The UN added that 127 civilians had been successfully evacuated from the plant and a nearby town to a Ukrainian-controlled city.

But now could be the final stand for those holding the battered facility, which has remained under Ukrainian control despite the rest of the strategic city falling to Russia.

Loud explosions from the plant could be heard on shaky video footage seemingly filmed today. Further clips appeared to show the Russian military firing at the facility from armoured vehicles.

The deputy commander of the Ukrainian Azov Regiment, that is holed up in the plant, confirmed that Russian forces have started to storm it.

Asked about reports in the Ukrainian media that the plant was being stormed, Sviatoslav Palamar replied: ‘It is true.’

Earlier, Mariupol patrol police chief Mykhailo Vershinin was quoted by Ukrainian television as saying that the Russian military had ‘started to storm the plant in several places.’

Denys Shlega, a commander of a brigade of Ukraine’s National Guard also at Azovstal, also said ‘the enemy is trying to storm the Azovstal plant with significant forces using armored vehicles.’

Those defending the plant have previously admitted they fear not having much longer to live.

More than 100 people — including elderly women and mothers with small children — left the rubble-strewn plant over the weekend and set out in buses and ambulances.

It was inevitable really, that steel plant held out weeks longer than anyone expected.

[Coop D'etat]

Who have you got in mind for helping you defend yourselves against the Americans? They're about the only credible threat left at this point, and this only stays a hypothetical question if the Republicans don't manage to put someone even worse in the White House next time.

Bear in mind the only reason the USA is the only credible threat… is because the US simply won’t allow another country onto North American soil and is willing to defend us regardless of what we do (since they know that we are not a remote threat to them).

While Canada is a technically a separate country politically and economically we are more or less a de facto US territory already (albeit an overall more left leaning one than you’d think Americans would tolerate). We probably don’t make enough fuss to get noticed most of the time, so they simply don’t care and are content to leave things be. But announce that we are withdrawing from NATO / NORAD??? That would change their attitude real quick.

Theoretically speaking we are more than capable of defending ourselves if we put our mind to it, including building a nuclear deterrent… but majority of modern Canadians* seem to be under the impression that they don’t need it cause America will always be there to save the day, so why waste the money? And plus, give peace a chance and all that.**

And ya, should America choose to formally annex Canada one day, the way things stand now we’d be stomped flat in hours. And no chance in hell another country would come to the rescue, so we may as well try to stay on their good side.

*previous generations would (and did) fight tooth and nail to stop American invasions, there are reasons why Canada remained separate afterall. Baby boomers onwards, not so much.

**Our modern “we’re non violent peacekeepers” ideology is rather at odds with a most of our history.

This is a sophomoric analysis.

Canada and the United States have a very strong community of interests in security matters, which is why they have a very tight alliance. The minor issues between the two states have been entirely negotiable and use of force on either side is entirely counterproductive for what can be easily obtained by negotiation. In short, they're aligned because there are strong positive sum reasons to be aligned that are incredibly durable regardless of political faction in charge in either capital.

This relationship is also why Canada is traditionally a very strong proponent of NATO. Because the larger ally is a lot easier to manage multilaterally rather than bilaterally.

This gets into why NATO isn't now or previously obsolete in the slightest. Its an institution that serves a great many interests adequately.

[The Infidel]

Russia claims Israel works with neo-nazis in Ukraine now. Shit, their crazy is reaching Qanon levels now.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ru ... 022-05-03/

May 3 (Reuters) - Russia's foreign ministry accused Israel on Tuesday of supporting neo-Nazis in Ukraine, escalating a row that began when Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov claimed Adolf Hitler had Jewish origins.

Israel said on Monday Lavrov's comment was an "unforgivable" falsehood that tried to minimise the horrors of the Holocaust - the slaughter of 6 million European Jews and other minority groupsby Nazi Germany. read more

Leaders from several Western nations denounced Lavrov, who had been asked how Russia could be pursuing its stated goal of "denazifying" Ukraine when President Volodymyr Zelenskiy himself is a Jew. Zelenskiy, whose country is a parliamentary democracy, accused Russia of having forgotten the lessons of World War Two.

The Russian foreign ministry said in a statement that Israeli Foreign Minister Yair Lapid's comments were "anti-historical" and "explain to a large extent why the current Israeli government supports the neo-Nazi regime in Kyiv".

Moscow reiterated Lavrov's point that Zelenskiy's Jewish origins did not preclude Ukraine being run by neo-Nazis.

"Antisemitism in everyday life and in politics is not stopped and is on the contrary nurtured (in Ukraine)," it said in a statement.

Israel has expressed support for Ukraine following the Russian invasion in February. But wary of damaging relations with Russia, a powerbroker in neighbouring Syria, it initially avoided direct criticism of Moscow and has not enforced formal sanctions on Russian oligarchs.

However, ties have grown more strained, with Lapid last month accusing Russia of committing war crimes in Ukraine.

"After the Kremlin claimed that Israel supports Nazism, I have just one question. Is there any non-Nazi country in the whole world in Russia’s point of view? Except Syria, Belarus and Eritrea, of course," Ukrainian presidential adviser Mykhailo Podolyak tweeted on Tuesday, mentioning countries that have supported what Moscow calls its "special operation" in Ukraine.

[Tribble]

Who have you got in mind for helping you defend yourselves against the Americans? They're about the only credible threat left at this point, and this only stays a hypothetical question if the Republicans don't manage to put someone even worse in the White House next time.

Bear in mind the only reason the USA is the only credible threat… is because the US simply won’t allow another country onto North American soil and is willing to defend us regardless of what we do (since they know that we are not a remote threat to them).

While Canada is a technically a separate country politically and economically we are more or less a de facto US territory already (albeit an overall more left leaning one than you’d think Americans would tolerate). We probably don’t make enough fuss to get noticed most of the time, so they simply don’t care and are content to leave things be. But announce that we are withdrawing from NATO / NORAD??? That would change their attitude real quick.

Theoretically speaking we are more than capable of defending ourselves if we put our mind to it, including building a nuclear deterrent… but majority of modern Canadians* seem to be under the impression that they don’t need it cause America will always be there to save the day, so why waste the money? And plus, give peace a chance and all that.**

And ya, should America choose to formally annex Canada one day, the way things stand now we’d be stomped flat in hours. And no chance in hell another country would come to the rescue, so we may as well try to stay on their good side.

*previous generations would (and did) fight tooth and nail to stop American invasions, there are reasons why Canada remained separate afterall. Baby boomers onwards, not so much.

**Our modern “we’re non violent peacekeepers” ideology is rather at odds with a most of our history.

This is a sophomoric analysis.

Canada and the United States have a very strong community of interests in security matters, which is why they have a very tight alliance. The minor issues between the two states have been entirely negotiable and use of force on either side is entirely counterproductive for what can be easily obtained by negotiation. In short, they're aligned because there are strong positive sum reasons to be aligned that are incredibly durable regardless of political faction in charge in either capital.

This relationship is also why Canada is traditionally a very strong proponent of NATO. Because the larger ally is a lot easier to manage multilaterally rather than bilaterally.

This gets into why NATO isn't now or previously obsolete in the slightest. Its an institution that serves a great many interests adequately.

Well, yes, when your country is effectively a client state / territory of your much larger partner, common interests tend to align. Go figure. I’m of the opinion that at this point we might be better off joining the US as a few extra states because we’d overall have a lot more influence than we do now, but that’s another debate.

Don’t get me wrong, Canada does get plenty out of NATO - because of it we can effectively get away with spending far less on our military than we might have to otherwise (though when your military has to raid museums for spare parts that’s rarely a good sign). But let’s not kid ourselves and pretend that the way things stand now we could survive (or be allowed to survive) outside of it.

[Coop D'etat]

The notion that Canada or the other large Western states are American clients is one of those idiot memes that circulate as faux sophistication. None of them are functional American dependencies, have no reliance on American aid to sustain their ongoing existence and in none of them does America functionally control internal or external politics. All you can really say is its not viable for any of them to be directly hostile to the United States, which isn't saying that much. Soviet Poland was a client/puppet of the USSR. America is the senior and central member of an alliance and trade network. These aren't the same things at all.

Thinking in these terms is exactly the backwards notions that leads to thinking Russia is reasonable to intimidate and invade its sovereign neighbours.

[His Divine Shadow]

It just struck me, that Russia, with it's fascist and nazi inspired ideology (despite labeling everyone else nazis...), who at the same time tries to nostalgically harken back to the USSR days, have become the real life version of



Simpsons did it again

[wautd]

Russia's neo nazi regime seems to accuse swedish celebrities of being nazis. Are they going to de-nazify sweden too?

[ray245]

Russia's neo nazi regime seems to accuse swedish celebrities of being nazis. Are they going to de-nazify sweden too?

They are accusing Israel of being neo-Nazis. I think at this point the whole world is neo-Nazi in their eyes.

[wautd]

Russia's neo nazi regime seems to accuse swedish celebrities of being nazis. Are they going to de-nazify sweden too?

They are accusing Israel of being neo-Nazis. I think at this point the whole world is neo-Nazi in their eyes.

Based on the Russian article that was advocating genocide a couple of weeks ago, merely being pro european (which I guess is being pro democracy, pro lgbt rights, pro freedom of press and journalism,...) Is being equated with being pro nazi. It's 1984 level of double speak. QAnon level insanity indeed

[Solauren]

Is it Qanon level of insanity, or just 'High level cultural brainwashing'. (Or both?)

[ray245]

Russia's neo nazi regime seems to accuse swedish celebrities of being nazis. Are they going to de-nazify sweden too?

They are accusing Israel of being neo-Nazis. I think at this point the whole world is neo-Nazi in their eyes.

Based on the Russian article that was advocating genocide a couple of weeks ago, merely being pro european (which I guess is being pro democracy, pro lgbt rights, pro freedom of press and journalism,...) Is being equated with being pro nazi. It's 1984 level of double speak. QAnon level insanity indeed

Well the word nazi or nazism has evolved into a purely polemical category. No doubt future historians will be spending some time debating what Nazism actually meant in the early 21st century.

I won't be surprised if in the future "nazis" merely means "everything we dislike". Even by actual neo-nazis.

[Lord Revan]

They are accusing Israel of being neo-Nazis. I think at this point the whole world is neo-Nazi in their eyes.

Based on the Russian article that was advocating genocide a couple of weeks ago, merely being pro european (which I guess is being pro democracy, pro lgbt rights, pro freedom of press and journalism,...) Is being equated with being pro nazi. It's 1984 level of double speak. QAnon level insanity indeed

Well the word nazi or nazism has evolved into a purely polemical category. No doubt future historians will be spending some time debating what Nazism actually meant in the early 21st century.

I won't be surprised if in the future "nazis" merely means "everything we dislike". Even by actual neo-nazis.

Well that's problem when something becomes so emblematically "pure evil" a lot of people forget that there's a set of "values" that need to be met for someone to be called nazi and it's not just "something I dislike", technically even though very closely related fascism and nazi ideology are not the same thing, granted both are just as vile they're just slightly different "flavors" of vile.

[Coop D'etat]

Russia's neo nazi regime seems to accuse swedish celebrities of being nazis. Are they going to de-nazify sweden too?

They are accusing Israel of being neo-Nazis. I think at this point the whole world is neo-Nazi in their eyes.

To some degree your overthinking things.

In Russian chauvinist narrative, Russians are the victims of and triumphant heroes vanquishing Nazi's. Jewish victimhood complicates the narrative and threatens to supplant Russian status, so it's either ignored or minimized. In this frame, a Nazi is about being anti-Russian, so Jewish Nazi's are not contradictory, despite how absurd and insulting it is outside this framework.

So Sweden is electing to sign up for an effort to deny Russian dominion in Eastern Europe, therefore Sweden is declaring itself Nazi. Israel is starting to lean towards arming Ukraine, so Israel is Nazi.

Note how ineffective this is as a diplomatic strategy and how few non-Russians are willing to go along with it outside the usual useful idiots, tankies and simps.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Apparently with Victory Day looming, Putin wants to have something to show for waging war on Ukraine.

[Darth Nostril]

Apparently with Victory Day looming, Putin wants to have something to show for waging war on Ukraine.

A decimated army & the pride of the Black Sea Fleet 'promoted' to submarine status isn't enough?

Well, okay, the UA is launching it's counteroffensive in Donbass.

Is that going to be enough for Putler? If he's still alive by then.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Apparently with Victory Day looming, Putin wants to have something to show for waging war on Ukraine.

A decimated army & the pride of the Black Sea Fleet 'promoted' to submarine status isn't enough?

Well, okay, the UA is launching it's counteroffensive in Donbass.

Is that going to be enough for Putler? If he's still alive by then.

What I'm wondering is whether the civilians in that part of the country are pro-Russian or not.

[Darth Nostril]

The majority of the Donbass remains under Ukrainian control, without russian support the separatists would have been annihilated years ago.

Ironically Mariupol was one of the most pro-russian cities in Ukraine. And just look what Putler's fascists did to it.

[His Divine Shadow]

I won't be surprised if in the future "nazis" merely means "everything we dislike". Even by actual neo-nazis.

From what I've heard from russians, this happened a long time ago in russia, I don't know how long but might go back all the way to USSR days.

[Lord Revan]

I won't be surprised if in the future "nazis" merely means "everything we dislike". Even by actual neo-nazis.

From what I've heard from russians, this happened a long time ago in russia, I don't know how long but might go back all the way to USSR days.

Oh it was very common for the Eastern block (not just USSR but it's "allies" as well) to refer to those they disliked as "fascists", for example the Berlin Wall was called "protection wall against fascist" or something similar in East German media.

[KraytKing]

Didn't the color guard of East Germany goose-step away when they lowered the flag for the last time? Vaguely remember something like that, likening capitalist victory to the Third Reich.