Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Just saw this today, a lot to unpack. Trailer implied that Wanda and Strange would be teaming up to fight a greater threat but it turns out she was the main threat. The fan focus was all about the "multiverse" aspect and featured one of the X-Men instead of the rest. At least they picked the most important one. Same with Reed Richards, though in that instance Reed Richards was useless. As was Black Bolt, for that matter. Mordo got relegated from an antagonist at the end of the first film to a minor player in this one.

For the Illuminati though I'm surprised neither Bruce Banner or Tony Stark made a cameo, though in the latter's case his ego wouldn't have allowed him to consider anyone else an equal, assuming he survived in that universe instead of Strange. And we saw that alt!Marvel is not as powerful as Scarlet Witch, and Hayley Atwell reprised the What If version of superserum-infused Peggy Carter.

[Gandalf]

My wife and I saw it today, like you said, there's a lot in that film. We both had a good time.

I liked that they kept Scarlet Witch as an outright villain, right up until that last part. That makes way more sense given the events of Wandavision. It was also cool to see Strange as a villain at times.

Music fight was awesome.

Cameo fanservice universe was a fun way to have an action sequence, set up a bunch of memes, and start firing up the Raimi horror theme.

I'll post more thoughts later.

[Crazedwraith]

Can we just mark this thread spoilers btw?

"Wanda goes crazy and is the villain "is the spoiler that I mentioned in testing that I am so mad about and makes me come over all TRR lol. Along with introducing and killing Captain Carter. Both sound like total bullshit. Wanda going crazy is a bullshit thing in the comics and it should never be ported into the films.

I've not seen it so maybe it handles it well but just as a concept not a fan at all. (I know if follows from WandaVision, that doesn't help)

[Crazedwraith]

For the Illuminati though I'm surprised neither Bruce Banner or Tony Stark made a cameo,

The downside of live action. RDJ's retired and stays retired. They could have recast or used Don Cheadle as a Rhodey!Iron Man since it's a multiverse thing but you'd lose the impact.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

We could mark it as spoilers although from the title it's all but implied. I hadn't realised until I saw the credits that it had the same director from the Spider-Man Trilogy. I'd forgotten that Strange giving his life was actually the cover story the Illuminati gave the public when it was actually Black Bolt who killed him instead of Thanos.

With the focus on the "multiverse", it was the "madness" half of the title that drove Wanda to do what she did. No references to Vision as far as I could tell, which was odd seeing how he was literally half of WandaVision and I thought he would appear in some capacity.

[Solauren]

Lack of concern over vision makes sense. She got closure with Vision in the series, and there is a new 'copy' of him running around. Getting him back should, in her mind, be a simple matter of some reprogramming.

Getting her kids back is a trickery problem.

Man, Wanda has some great lines.
I was so rooting for her when she attacked the Sorcerer's...

[Silver Jedi]

The downside of live action. RDJ's retired and stays retired. They could have recast or used Don Cheadle as a Rhodey!Iron Man since it's a multiverse thing but you'd lose the impact.

Honestly, I would've loved to see Terrence Howard!Rhodey as Iron Man/War Machine in the Illuminati. Not because it would've made any more (or less) sense than the other fanservice casting, but just to watch the types of fans that try to make every easter-egg or fanservice detail into a legitimate theory flail about trying to use it as proof that mephisto was actually behind the whole thing.

[Broomstick]

Wanda going crazy is a bullshit thing in the comics and it should never be ported into the films.

Meh, not so bullshit in my view.

Wanda has lost her family multiple times - her parents in Sokovia, her brother, Vision... The whole Westville incident was grief turned toxic, except that Wanda can act that out with mind-control and reality-warping as opposed to, say, drugs and alcohol. While her kids in Westville weren't real they were real to her (and actually exist out in the multiverse in a way) and she lost THEM. And Vision again. Then she gets the Darkhold, which merely reading is a corrupting influence on a person (think drugs again) that gives her hope that she might get "her" kids "back". Then it's down the rabbit hole.

What Wanda needed was a whole lot of therapy for PTSD and grief. That's not what she got and her coping mechanisms led her to be very destructive. Which is bad enough when it happens to someone who could take up driving drunk (as an example) but with her suite of superpowers was much, much more problematic.

Contrast that with Bucky Barnes in the MCU - the court-mandated therapy probably did him some good and he's a lot less hazardous to those around him. Then again, for all that we see Bucky being awkward and resistant to therapy he also seems to genuinely want to atone and get better. He's accepted that he has problems and is trying to fix them.

Or look at Tony Stark - instead of "just" buying an arsenal of guns and ammo and stockpiling a year's worth of food in a basement his reactions to PTSD lead to building a potentially world-destroying AI that caused a lot of problems for everyone else.

Honestly, Earth-616 really needs to pay more attention to the mental health of supers.

I'm not entirely sure what's keeping Dr. Strange sane, though. Maybe there's something about Kamar-Taj training that helps with that.

[Crazedwraith]

I have seen the film now so can proper bitch about it. Though I can't say how much is affected by the spoilers and my prejudice against it.

The downside of live action. RDJ's retired and stays retired. They could have recast or used Don Cheadle as a Rhodey!Iron Man since it's a multiverse thing but you'd lose the impact.

Honestly, I would've loved to see Terrence Howard!Rhodey as Iron Man/War Machine in the Illuminati. Not because it would've made any more (or less) sense than the other fanservice casting, but just to watch the types of fans that try to make every easter-egg or fanservice detail into a legitimate theory flail about trying to use it as proof that mephisto was actually behind the whole thing.

That would have been hilarious I wish they'd thought of it. Or anyone who's actors changed reverting to the older one.

Wanda going crazy is a bullshit thing in the comics and it should never be ported into the films.

Meh, not so bullshit in my view.
-snip rest-

hope you don't mind me snipping the post. I did read it.

I guess what I mean is not that's bullshit in the sense of being implausible or out of nowhere. (Though Wanda is much more of a moustache twirling villian in MoM they did 'justify' it with the Darkhold) It just that it's a nasty, unpleasant and mean and ill conceived plot arc and I hate it.

Because Wanda didn't get help you're right. Because apparently no-one gives a shit about Wanda. Not between Endgame and WandaVision not between WandaVision and MoM. Yeah, Tony had mental issues, Lots of heroes had mental issues none of their story arcs ended with 'they became the baddie in someone else's film and died'. (though that death is highly suspect)

Even after WandaVision, Wanda could easily have had an actual redemption arc where she realises she has issues and really bad instincts about magic and works beyond it because.. you know she's a good person with a desire to do good and be a hero instead we just get the 'is totally evil until the last second and then dies' plot line that's been done a thousand times before.

I'll try to unpack my full thoughts about the film, now i've seen, into it's own post. Hopefully this one at least vaguely made sense.

[Gandalf]

Because Wanda didn't get help you're right. Because apparently no-one gives a shit about Wanda. Not between Endgame and WandaVision not between WandaVision and MoM. Yeah, Tony had mental issues, Lots of heroes had mental issues none of their story arcs ended with 'they became the baddie in someone else's film and died'. (though that death is highly suspect)

Even after WandaVision, Wanda could easily have had an actual redemption arc where she realises she has issues and really bad instincts about magic and works beyond it because.. you know she's a good person with a desire to do good and be a hero instead we just get the 'is totally evil until the last second and then dies' plot line that's been done a thousand times before.

I'll try to unpack my full thoughts about the film, now i've seen, into it's own post. Hopefully this one at least vaguely made sense.

Wanda could have had a redemption arc, but it's actually neat to see that not everyone gets them.

You're quite right in that nobody cares about her, which makes sense as a victim of the American military industrial complex. Even Stark locked her up in the Stark Internment Complex because "they don't give visas to weapons if mass destruction." When even the world's sainted heroes treat you so poorly, it makes sense that she would act in such a way.

[Crazedwraith]

-snip

I've tried to write a response to this like three or four times and I just.. can't. I'm obviously way too worked up about this.

Suffice to say in my subjective opinion, I didn't like it and no amount of other people's explanations of how it makes perfect sense will change that.

Apologies because I feel like should engage more with this but I'm clearly not equipped to do so.

[Broomstick]

Wanda could have had a redemption arc, but it's actually neat to see that not everyone gets them.

Yes, I agree - the "redemption arc" becomes less meaningful when everyone gets one. And, to be clear, Wanda essentially kidnapped and entire town, mindfucked them over and over, and tortured them. That might not have been her intention but that's what she actually did. That's pretty horrible stuff and I could definitely see a case for a criminal trial connected to all that with a lengthy and severe punishment.

(Arguably, some other heroes should also face punishment for the consequences of their actions, but I want to keep the focus on Wanda here.)

You're quite right in that nobody cares about her, which makes sense as a victim of the American military industrial complex. Even Stark locked her up in the Stark Internment Complex because "they don't give visas to weapons if mass destruction." When even the world's sainted heroes treat you so poorly, it makes sense that she would act in such a way.

Please. Not just the "American military industrial complex". She and her brother were experimented upon by Hydra and exploited by them before the "American military industrial complex" got anywhere near them. But you are incorrect to say NO ONE cared about Wanda. Someone did. Vision cared about Wanda, he cared about her a great deal. That's why she loved him. Probably the only person in the world other than her brother (who died) who ever cared about Wanda after they were orphaned.

Then she was put in a situation where, in an attempt to save half the people in the universe she killed the one person anywhere who cared about her. And it was for nothing. When she was dusted by Thanos it might have been a relief for her.... but she came back. And Vision didn't. No wonder she snapped. What had being the "good guy" ever brought her other than suffering and loss? Her intent in Westville arguably wasn't malevolent - she just wanted the person she loved back, and a normal life with "normal" family. She didn't ask to rule the world or be famous or rich.... but of course it was built on a lie and it didn't last. And, like I said, it involved kidnapping, mind-rape, coercion, and torture. No one cared about her, doing the "right thing" didn't work - why not read that Darkhold thing and see if somewhere, somehow, she could have her kids, and a "normal" life even if she couldn't have Vision...?

Now, there is an argument that Wanda's arc is yet another example showing a powerful woman as evil whereas the guys get a pass for their misbehavior. As Wanda says: "You break the rules and you're a hero. I break the rules and I'm the enemy. That doesn't seem fair." Well, there's a couple paragraphs I could write about that, too, but I'm not going to right now.

The thing that gets me is my agreement with what Wong mentioned, what was the effect of Strange dreamwalking a corpse of a variant Strange? Strange brushed it off, but it's clear he's not someone inclined to open up. Wonder if that's going to have consequences down the line.

[Broomstick]

Suffice to say in my subjective opinion, I didn't like it and no amount of other people's explanations of how it makes perfect sense will change that.

Apologies because I feel like should engage more with this but I'm clearly not equipped to do so.

Hey, I am totally OK with "I don't like it". If you want to analyze that, great. If you don't want that I'm totally OK with that, too. MoM was a different movie than a lot of the MCU, with a lot of horror elements and a lot of hopping around in a manner that isn't likable to everyone.

How you feel is how you feel.

You don't have to like it whether it makes sense or not, or whether other people like it or not.

[Gandalf]

Yes, I agree - the "redemption arc" becomes less meaningful when everyone gets one. And, to be clear, Wanda essentially kidnapped and entire town, mindfucked them over and over, and tortured them. That might not have been her intention but that's what she actually did. That's pretty horrible stuff and I could definitely see a case for a criminal trial connected to all that with a lengthy and severe punishment.

Most definitely. I think that's what made Killmonger and Thanos such good villains. They ran on their own reasoning, and didn't give up even when they had lost the fight scenes.

(Arguably, some other heroes should also face punishment for the consequences of their actions, but I want to keep the focus on Wanda here.)

All of the agreement, and touches on stuff below.

Please. Not just the "American military industrial complex". She and her brother were experimented upon by Hydra and exploited by them before the "American military industrial complex" got anywhere near them.

The Stark bomb which killed her parents came before the whole radicalisation and Hydra. Whoever fired it is also responsible.

But you are incorrect to say NO ONE cared about Wanda. Someone did. Vision cared about Wanda, he cared about her a great deal. That's why she loved him. Probably the only person in the world other than her brother (who died) who ever cared about Wanda after they were orphaned.

Then she was put in a situation where, in an attempt to save half the people in the universe she killed the one person anywhere who cared about her. And it was for nothing. When she was dusted by Thanos it might have been a relief for her.... but she came back. And Vision didn't. No wonder she snapped. What had being the "good guy" ever brought her other than suffering and loss? Her intent in Westville arguably wasn't malevolent - she just wanted the person she loved back, and a normal life with "normal" family. She didn't ask to rule the world or be famous or rich.... but of course it was built on a lie and it didn't last. And, like I said, it involved kidnapping, mind-rape, coercion, and torture. No one cared about her, doing the "right thing" didn't work - why not read that Darkhold thing and see if somewhere, somehow, she could have her kids, and a "normal" life even if she couldn't have Vision...?

I used cares in the present tense, to tie it to the post Wandavision time period that Crazedwraith mentioned, so I could have been clearer. But you are right about that; Vision gave Wanda a stable and normal(ish) existence, until it all came crashing down. That was what made WandaVision so compelling at the start. Hiding from trauma using cassette tapes of television shows is troublingly identifiable for me, so I got that completely. Then the hiding place broke, and she was out in the world without any support mechanisms, and hard to hold accountable on account of sheer power. Pain, fury, and lack of accountability are a hell of a combination.

Now, there is an argument that Wanda's arc is yet another example showing a powerful woman as evil whereas the guys get a pass for their misbehavior. As Wanda says: "You break the rules and you're a hero. I break the rules and I'm the enemy. That doesn't seem fair." Well, there's a couple paragraphs I could write about that, too, but I'm not going to right now.

Yeah, Marvel's treatment of women has been pretty shitty overall, and it sucks that she seems to be the first in the queue for the actual accountability. It's hard to tell who had the worse treatment between her and Black Widow.

[Tribble]

Well, guess my expectations were way off. I originally thought that Scarlet Witch came from the Multiverse (due to a combination of the events in Wanda Vision and No Way Home). I thought that this alternate Scarlet Witch was legitimately trying to help Wanda "make things right"... and the events of the movie would prove her methods too extreme and Wanda + Strange have to eventually confront her. (I also thought that maybe evil strange came from that universe too). Guess not lol

Lack of concern over vision makes sense. She got closure with Vision in the series, and there is a new 'copy' of him running around. Getting him back should, in her mind, be a simple matter of some reprogramming.

Which is why you'd think she'd try that first? One could argue that she wasn't aware that Vision's memories had been more or less restored, but still.

For that matter, where was Vision 2.0 this whole time? Yes, he's not 100% the original Vision, or the Westview Vision but you'd think that he of all people would have followed up with her at some point instead of going AWOL? You'd also think Hawkeye would have kept an eye on her? Yes I know he had his own issues to deal with, but they were implied to be close friends.

Now, there is an argument that Wanda's arc is yet another example showing a powerful woman as evil whereas the guys get a pass for their misbehavior. As Wanda says: "You break the rules and you're a hero. I break the rules and I'm the enemy. That doesn't seem fair." Well, there's a couple paragraphs I could write about that, too, but I'm not going to right now.

That is one of the main issues I have with this film, apart from it being more or less a repeat of Wanda Vision: a grieving Wanda uses her powers to try and regain a normal life, causes a lot of harm in the process, and in the end realizes what's she's done, moves on from her grief and tries to repent for her actions. Except in Wanda Vision the story was executed a lot better.

Plus between Wanda Vision and this movie, she totally forgot the hard lessons learned, snapped off screen and turned evilz. Sure

I mean, what do you think are the odds that in the next movie Peter Parker will snap off screen and go on a homicidal rampage to try and undo the events of No Way Home? He's faced fairly similar circumstances to Wanda after all, and it would be a nice way to twist audience expectations right? Ya, I don't think so.

To balance things out and be fair, my head canon now is that Steve Rogers succumbed to the temptations of the Stones and went on a murderous rampage when he goes back in time in EndGame. Just like Wanda he wanted to live in his dream world with Peggy, timelines be damned. Rogers killed without hesitation everyone in that universe who could possibly be a threat to his idealized life, and only came back to the "regular" timeline in old age when he begins to regret his actions (and/or starts going senile). After all, he did say he had a dark side at one point, didn't he? Don't let his kindly wrinkled old face fool you; in the end Captain America was evilz!

Like other MCU projects I enjoyed the movie, but I'm not gonna pretend it didn't have issues.

[Broomstick]

Yeah, Marvel's treatment of women has been pretty shitty overall, and it sucks that she seems to be the first in the queue for the actual accountability. It's hard to tell who had the worse treatment between her and Black Widow.

It's not just Marvel - "powerful women are/become evil" is a motif that goes back thousands of years.

Lack of concern over vision makes sense. She got closure with Vision in the series, and there is a new 'copy' of him running around. Getting him back should, in her mind, be a simple matter of some reprogramming.

Which is why you'd think she'd try that first? One could argue that she wasn't aware that Vision's memories had been more or less restored, but still.

Westview!Vision wasn't actually Vision - he was, as she put it, a construct of her grief. He was an idealized version of her memories and thoughts about Vision. Even more so than the other residents of Westview he was a puppet she manipulated.

As a widow myself I have some experience of Memory!Husband, although mine appears in dreams, I don't mind-rape a small town to manifest him.

For that matter, where was Vision 2.0 this whole time? Yes, he's not 100% the original Vision, or the Westview Vision but you'd think that he of all people would have followed up with her at some point instead of going AWOL?

We really don't know what's going on with Vision 2.0 at this point, or how much attachment he'd have to Wanda. I did notice the lack, and I assume the meta-reason is that Paul Bettany was unavailable.

You'd also think Hawkeye would have kept an eye on her? Yes I know he had his own issues to deal with, but they were implied to be close friends.

Hawkeye also went on a murderous rampage when his family was dusted. He's an example of someone who turned evil and has escaped consequences. If he was connected to Ronin he'd be up on mass murder charges. Not sure he'd really be able to help her and for all that I like Hawkeye I find it deeply disturbing that he's essentially escaped material consequences for that.

I mean, what do you think are the odds that in the next movie Peter Parker will snap off screen and go on a homicidal rampage to try and undo the events of No Way Home? He's faced fairly similar circumstances to Wanda after all, and it would be a nice way to twist audience expectations right? Ya, I don't think so.

Even when Parker faced loss, though, he still had people who cared for him, such as his Uncle Ben and his Aunt May. Happy. Ned. Yes, he's been stripped of all that now but unlike Wanda his life has not been an unrelieved trauma conga line. I could see that giving him a different resilience.

Like other MCU projects I enjoyed the movie, but I'm not gonna pretend it didn't have issues.

^ This. I don't require my entertainment to be perfect to enjoy it.

I could list out a bunch of flaws I saw with this movie as well as what was done right.

[Crazedwraith]

Okay so trying to set aside the Wanda issue and talk about the rest of the movie. It was okay? Pretty good.

I was impressed with how much Horror and brutality they got away with on a PG-13 budget, there’s apparently a lot you get away with implication and showing the bare minimum just having it happen to giant squid monster.

Seriously the whole eye balls being ripped out on screen with nothing more than a black comedy ‘pop’-ing sound was... wow.

The plots kind of basic: all powerful child macGuffin, has to be protected, the choice between protecting the kid and the greater good and a third option is taken, done well enough but fairly standard I think.

The film isn’t responsible for my assumptions other than what was in the trailer after No Way Home. But I was expecting more a sliders, lost in the multiverse vibe, maybe an evil Strange as the big bad it somehow being linked to Strange’s NWH spell. (Because everyone wants consequences right? Sorry) But the title “multiverse of madness” implied the stress of mutliverse travel was the potential cause of madness.

So there’s only one main AU, verse 838, and 1 other see we more than moment of and a variant from a fourth. I don’t know how I feel about 838, it’s another bit where the movie seems mean spirited: ‘here are all these cool new characters from the rights we have back, you’ve wanted to see for ages, they are varying levels of asshole and will now die horribly.’

In fairness Prof x and Mr Fantastic are barely assholes and Mordo (a villain) and Maria Rambaeu (a very minor character) were the most assholish.

There also a perennial problem with AUs where they are supposedly much cooler, better and more competent than the main verse (super tech city, killed Thanos’ before the snap etc) but they lack character shields and die in ways their main verse counterparts never would. You can’t tell me 616 Steve and Carol would ever die that easily.

The magic was of course cool and nicely varied, which apparently they put a lot of effort in. There’s not much theory so exactly why the Stranges decided and stuck with a music battle is a little unclear to me but it was cool.

The rest of the new magic seemed to by Strange calling up bits of monsters to do his work, which was oddly reminiscent of the Strange Supreme from What If…? Except he’d been corrupted absorbing those creatures where 616 Strange hadn’t. The variation on magic we’d seen like shields as buzz saws and the mirror dimension being co-opted by Wanda were fun, it was sad that NWH seems to be the last hurrah for some of the weird geometry and astral plane stuff from the first film.

Petty complaint: I wasn’t really impressed by Wong as Sorcerer Supreme, like he didn’t seem more magically impressive or wise than Strange and he doesn’t really pull his weight once Wanda attacks? There seemed to be a moment when Strange is attacking Wanda with hydra arms and he’s standing there… doing nothing? If you joined in you’d stand a better chance of overwhelming her. I mean fair enough when he’s not cowed by Wanda’s threats to him but is by her threatening other mystics, that’s standard hero stuff but then he’s pretty passive in Wundagore and even seems ready to help her fight the monsters of the shrine.

So a question, I’m hoping the people of the thread will weigh in on. Does Strange have a character arc and development over the course of the film? Would he at the start done what the Defender Strange at the start did, protect America but seize her power if he had to? That seems to be the big moment, that and… bowing to Wong.

The problem is that wasn’t our Strange, because there’s the possibility he wouldn’t do that even at the start of the film, and he’s already had that development as a response to NWH, but then how much of NWH he remembers is a mystery.

So yeah, it’s fine to me but not one I’m particularly enthusiastic about.

[Broomstick]

Petty complaint: I wasn’t really impressed by Wong as Sorcerer Supreme, like he didn’t seem more magically impressive or wise than Strange and he doesn’t really pull his weight once Wanda attacks?

It's been made pretty clear through a couple of projects that Wong is MCU Sorcerer Supreme because Strange was dust for five years. He got it on a technicality, not because he was overall better at the job than Strange.

[Crazedwraith]

Petty complaint: I wasn’t really impressed by Wong as Sorcerer Supreme, like he didn’t seem more magically impressive or wise than Strange and he doesn’t really pull his weight once Wanda attacks?

It's been made pretty clear through a couple of projects that Wong is MCU Sorcerer Supreme because Strange was dust for five years. He got it on a technicality, not because he was overall better at the job than Strange.

Yeah, I know. I didn't phrase that well I was more commenting on his lack of action than skills.

Though that reminds was Strange ever Sorcerer Supreme in the MCU? Because Pete thinks he is and has no reason to suspect so unless Strange said so at some point.

But I don't recall him ever saying so in the films, and he lacks knowledge in this film that you get with you are the Sorcerer Supreme. But then how did Peter know the term. hmm.

[FaxModem1]

My biggest disappointment with this film, aside from how they treated Wanda, was that we only really saw one other universe(two if we're counting the incursion Strange universe). It wasn't so much a multiverse of madness so much as Dr. Strange pops over to the next universe for a carton of milk and a chat. Sam Raimi's presence can really be felt in the third act, where he seems to be able to take off the leash and be more stylized with his direction.

Regarding Wanda:
Wanda has pretty much always been Marvel's whipping boy who never gets to have what she wants. I don't think the MCU really needed to follow that example. Especially since she's someone with godlike power, and just wants the simple 'normal' life of having a family and loved ones, which is repeatedly denied. Agatha's big critique of Wanda is that she's a person with godlike power, and she's using it 'to make breakfast for dinner'.

I think a key point lost regarding Westview is that Wanda did all of the 'perfect sitcom life universe' on accident. It's not like Wanda intentionally took over Westview, or drank a few while mourning. She had an emotional breakdown, but unfortunately she's the epitome of chaos magic, and created the Hex. Having rewatched Wandavision after watching MoM, Wanda's actions seem to be going through denial and there being a separation between her conscious mind and her subconscious mind on what she is doing. Most of her actions throughout Wandavision are her being in denial and when confronted with reality, she reflexively fights it off(but never lethally, as Monica noted). When anyone is successfully getting through to her, Agatha intervenes via herself or through Fake Pietro. So it's a woman being taken advantage of while in serious grief after an emotional breakdown and wanting to have a family, and being prevented from realizing just what's she doing until it's to Agatha's advantage.

She also thinks, until the scene where Agatha removes the mind control so that the town can voice their opinions, that she's doing everyone in Westview a favor and making Westview happy, safe, and better. She's on the verge of tears when she realizes that she's hurting them, because she didn't realize she was hurting the people of Westview. Because sitcoms are happy, safe places where no one is ever in serious peril, everyone is happy at the end of the show, there are people who love you, and you are safe.

MoM took Wanda going through the stages of grief, her concerns for those she was hurting, her general compassion for others, and reaching acceptance of the death of Vision, and said 'Nope'. Wanda's a full on evil murderer now, just threw away all of her prior characterization and how she always did the right thing for others, even when it cost her everything. That doesn't happen anymore because 'evil book'. It felt like a betrayal of the character who when choosing between her personal happiness and everyone else, always chose everyone else, to a severe cost.

It also says really bad things about the rest of the Avengers that no one checked on her after the Westview incident until Dr Strange needed something from her. I also disliked how halfhearted Strange's attempts to talk Wanda down were, and how he either gave up and flew away, or launched flying snakes at her when she seemed to actually be considering his words. That's really bad de-escalation.

[Bedlam]

Petty complaint: I wasn’t really impressed by Wong as Sorcerer Supreme, like he didn’t seem more magically impressive or wise than Strange and he doesn’t really pull his weight once Wanda attacks?

It's been made pretty clear through a couple of projects that Wong is MCU Sorcerer Supreme because Strange was dust for five years. He got it on a technicality, not because he was overall better at the job than Strange.

Yeah, I know. I didn't phrase that well I was more commenting on his lack of action than skills.

Though that reminds was Strange ever Sorcerer Supreme in the MCU? Because Pete thinks he is and has no reason to suspect so unless Strange said so at some point.

But I don't recall him ever saying so in the films, and he lacks knowledge in this film that you get with you are the Sorcerer Supreme. But then how did Peter know the term. hmm.

I think Strange and Wong got their position in different ways. Strange seemed like he was appointed directly by the last person to hold the role (The ancient one) and it seems like on one else decided to challenge the appointment where as Wong took up the role upon the death of the previous holder (not exactly what I'd call a technicality, it's probably the more common way to get it, it's probably just not common that the previous holder comes back from the dead, although given magic is involved maybe it is). It's not clear how Wong is particular got the title whether there is some form of 'council' who normally appoints the role, if Strange in some way left him the title in his 'will' or if Wong had to go through some form of test. As Wong assentation was via the more normal method he got the 'manual' which went with the role. Alternatively given Strange's towering Ego he may have gotten the 'manual' as well and just decided that there was nothing it could teach him.

[Bedlam]

Duplicate post

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I was impressed with how much Horror and brutality they got away with on a PG-13 budget, there’s apparently a lot you get away with implication and showing the bare minimum just having it happen to giant squid monster.

It was pretty obvious from the get go that if the monster has a single giant eye, that was going to be its weak spot. I think the best example in the film was the fight that left serum!Carter Half the (Wo)man (S)he Used to Be.

[Crazedwraith]

I was impressed with how much Horror and brutality they got away with on a PG-13 budget, there’s apparently a lot you get away with implication and showing the bare minimum just having it happen to giant squid monster.

It was pretty obvious from the get go that if the monster has a single giant eye, that was going to be its weak spot. I think the best example in the film was the fight that left serum!Carter Half the (Wo)man (S)he Used to Be.

I wasn't surprised the eye was its weak spot. I was surprised it was impaled and ripped out with a comedic popping sound, entirely on screen without a discretion shot.

If that had been a human the rating would immediately have shot up. Doing it to a monster is no proble,.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I was impressed with how much Horror and brutality they got away with on a PG-13 budget, there’s apparently a lot you get away with implication and showing the bare minimum just having it happen to giant squid monster.

It was pretty obvious from the get go that if the monster has a single giant eye, that was going to be its weak spot. I think the best example in the film was the fight that left serum!Carter Half the (Wo)man (S)he Used to Be.

I wasn't surprised the eye was its weak spot. I was surprised it was impaled and ripped out with a comedic popping sound, entirely on screen without a discretion shot.

If that had been a human the rating would immediately have shot up. Doing it to a monster is no proble,.

Well Humans Are Special, after all