Ukraine reacts to fears of Russian invasion as troops build up at the border

[Zaune]

Didn't the color guard of East Germany goose-step away when they lowered the flag for the last time? Vaguely remember something like that, likening capitalist victory to the Third Reich.

The goose-step is a Prussian military tradition dating back to the mid-18th century, and adopted by many other armies. Including Russia, who are still using it for ceremonial duties.

[KraytKing]

Learn something new every day then.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Didn't the color guard of East Germany goose-step away when they lowered the flag for the last time? Vaguely remember something like that, likening capitalist victory to the Third Reich.

The goose-step is a Prussian military tradition dating back to the mid-18th century, and adopted by many other armies. Including Russia, who are still using it for ceremonial duties.

The North Koreans are the biggest offender, they used to do a ridiculous-looking bouncy version, until they realised how stupid it looked and toned it down.

[Lord Revan]

I think only the only double lightning bolt S symbol of the SS is something the Nazis invented and pretty much all of their other major symbols predate them and I'm not even sure about that symbol.

[Solauren]

I think only the only double lightning bolt S symbol of the SS is something the Nazis invented and pretty much all of their other major symbols predate them and I'm not even sure about that symbol.

Nope, they stole that to.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sowil%C5%8D_(rune)

[Zaune]

I think it might be stretching the definition of "appropriation" to include merely writing their organisation's initials in an old proto-Germanic alphabet, but it's still a pretty typical example of Nazi symbolism: They took something created by someone else that they admired but completely failed to understand, painted over the bits that didn't glorify being a fascist and claimed it had always been like that.

But I think we might be drifting slightly off-topic here, unless Putin's gone off on a rambling tangent about how Operation Barbarossa only happened because Hitler couldn't cope with the idea that Stalin was doing everything he wanted to do but doing it better, and Uncle Joe is only seen as a villain because of Western propaganda blah blah blah...

Mind you, it's probably only a matter of time.

[GrosseAdmiralFox]

Didn't the color guard of East Germany goose-step away when they lowered the flag for the last time? Vaguely remember something like that, likening capitalist victory to the Third Reich.

The goose-step is a Prussian military tradition dating back to the mid-18th century, and adopted by many other armies. Including Russia, who are still using it for ceremonial duties.

And, after a fashion, the US back in its early days (given that a gay Prussian was the one that whipped the Colonial Army into shape, it isn't a surprise, although he had to remove all flare to it due to the fact that even he noticed that the Americans didn't go for flare).

I think it might be stretching the definition of "appropriation" to include merely writing their organisation's initials in an old proto-Germanic alphabet, but it's still a pretty typical example of Nazi symbolism: They took something created by someone else that they admired but completely failed to understand, painted over the bits that didn't glorify being a fascist and claimed it had always been like that.

But I think we might be drifting slightly off-topic here, unless Putin's gone off on a rambling tangent about how Operation Barbarossa only happened because Hitler couldn't cope with the idea that Stalin was doing everything he wanted to do but doing it better, and Uncle Joe is only seen as a villain because of Western propaganda blah blah blah...

Mind you, it's probably only a matter of time.

I wouldn't be surprised if it does happen. Though, if what I've been seeing in some other forums is any indication, Russia is trying to up its infowar game... so we'll have to be vigilant.

[Broomstick]

What I'm wondering is whether the civilians in that part of the country are pro-Russian or not.

I suspect, after indiscriminate bombing, that a lot fewer are pro-Russian than at the beginning of February.

[Ralin]

I suspect, after indiscriminate bombing, that a lot fewer are pro-Russian than at the beginning of February.

Sort of all those American Trump supporters who turned on him after covid killed their relatives?

[Lord Revan]

I suspect, after indiscriminate bombing, that a lot fewer are pro-Russian than at the beginning of February.

Sort of all those American Trump supporters who turned on him after covid killed their relatives?

Well Trump wasn't directly killing those relatives with COVID, but rather his inaction and downplaying of the threat caused them to become infected and die, so those supporters could in theory blame someone else for those deaths. When you're under a direct attack it's kind of harder to blame anyone but the attacker for it (granted not impossible but it does demand a degree of disconnect with reality that isn't as common).

That's the key here as cowardly and selfish as Trump's actions were during the COVID pandemic his goals were never to kill people, that was just a side effect. On the other the Russian attacks don't seem to have any other goal then to kill as many civilians and other noncombatants as possible and any benefit to the war effort is the side effect.

[Ralin]

There's a difference, but I think it makes the point in a way we can all relate to.

[Zaune]

An image from the Victory Day parade in Moscow:



Source

Scrawling that Z symbol on a rather rare example of an interwar two-man tankette that's been preserved in full running order is about typical of the level Putin's mob is operating on, isn't it? Even if you buy the more innocuous explanations for its origins.

[Zaune]

Ghetto edit: Disregard the previous post, it's been brought to my attention that the picture is fake.

[Lord Revan]

There's a difference, but I think it makes the point in a way we can all relate to.

there a very important difference, indeed, the link with Trump's actions and COVID deaths is vague and unclear and would be more so among his supporters. Where as a Russian bomb is a Russian bomb and wouldn't be there if not the action of Putin and Russia, therefore the link between the attacks (and deaths caused by said attacks) is much, much more clear and also who is to blame is also much more clear.

I'm sure there's some pro-Russia hardliners who'd kill themselves if Putin told them to, but from what I've gathered that's not even close to the majority and most pro-Russia sentiment was as much dissatisfaction with the Ukrainian government and this sentiment would dissolve very quickly when Russia started targeting civilians intentionally.

[Solauren]

Also Trumps lack of inaction might have been deliberate ignorance and meant to cause problems, but simply his own stupidity and bad support around his position.
Russia/Putin's actions are deliberate.

[Lord Revan]

Also Trumps lack of inaction might have been deliberate ignorance and meant to cause problems, but simply his own stupidity and bad support around his position.
Russia/Putin's actions are deliberate.

I while I don't disagree with what I think your intended post was, which I suspect was "Also Trumps lack of action might not have been deliberate and meant to cause problems, but simply his own stupidity and bad support around his position.

Russia's/Putin's actions are deliberate."

You seemed to have been thinking of 2 ways of saying this and as result wrote something that's kind of a mix of both and thus confused on what it's intending to say. I know I do that sometimes, it's the fun of having dyslexia.

[Batman]

Thanks, Revan. I was kinda confused by that myself.

[Solauren]

Also Trumps lack of inaction might have been deliberate ignorance and meant to cause problems, but simply his own stupidity and bad support around his position.
Russia/Putin's actions are deliberate.

I while I don't disagree with what I think your intended post was, which I suspect was "Also Trumps lack of action might not have been deliberate and meant to cause problems, but simply his own stupidity and bad support around his position.

Russia's/Putin's actions are deliberate."

You seemed to have been thinking of 2 ways of saying this and as result wrote something that's kind of a mix of both and thus confused on what it's intending to say. I know I do that sometimes, it's the fun of having dyslexia.

Yes, absolutely, thank you

[wautd]

So Ukraine's army has pushed back the Russians from Kyiv region, is retaking territories around Charkiv and is on the defence/slightly loosing ground in the east/Donbas region.

Regarding the south/Mariupol region, did Ukraine ever try to counter attack or tried to rescue their forces stuck in the city? What are the main difficulties they're facing on the south theater? (are most of their forces located in the North and East? Influence of the Russian navy that makes counter attacking more difficult? Geography? Something else? )

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I too would like to know the answer to this, I don't think anyone knows how the steel works has managed to hold out for so long. There was talk of the Russians that after surrounding it trying to storm the plant itself but it's still in Ukrainian hands. I have wondered if/when the Ukrainian military was going to break the encirclement.
Boris Johnson promises to back Sweden and Finland in face of Russian threat.

Boris Johnson has promised to give Sweden and Finland whatever kind of assistance they request if they come under attack, including military support.

His comments come following the signing of an historic security assurance agreement with the two nations, pledging to "bolster military ties" in the face of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

Explaining the deals with Finland and Sweden, Mr Johnson said: "In the event of a disaster or an attack we will come to the other's assistance, upon request, and it will be up to the other party to say what kind of assistance they want."

The offer of support to the Nordic region, includes deployment of Royal Air Force, British Army and Royal Navy personnel and assets.

But, asked whether the the UK's nuclear deterrent was included in the assurance, Mr Johnson ITV News that it's "very important that we don't discuss the use or deployment of our nuclear weapons, or indeed the conditions on which me might deploy them".

Under the agreements both countries would be expected to provide the UK with support, should it be requested. Both nations are also considering whether to join Nato.

It suggests there's been a shift in position from two countries which have previously opted out of military alliances and have historically remained neutral in wartime.

But for Nordic countries, their proximity to Russia is concerning, especially for Finland, which shares a lengthy land border with Russia and is only about 250 miles from St Petersburg.

Mr Johnson said Russia invasion of Ukraine shows "any country that is independent, democratic, within range of Vladimir Putin, is potentially a target".

He then told a press conference in Finland that the deals signed will see each other "always come to one another's aid", whether or not the countries join Nato.

"This is not a short-term stop gap as you consider Nato membership, but an enduring assurance between two nations, an assurance that brings us ever closer as we face the challenges of today, the threats of tomorrow, side by side."

Asked during a press conference alongside Finnish president Sauli Niinisto if there would be "British boots on the ground" on Finnish territory during a "possible conflict with Russia", he said: "I think the solemn declaration is itself clear.

"And what it says is that in the event of a disaster, or in the event of an attack on either of us, then yes, we will come to each other's assistance, including with military assistance.

Swedish prime minister Magdalena Andersson said her country would be safer as a result of the mutual assistance agreement with the UK.

"Are we safer with this declaration? Yes we are. Of course this means something. This is important whatever policy choice we make in Sweden," she said.

Despite early hopes that negotiations with Russia could find a resolution to the conflict, Mr Johnson suggested that outcome was currently not possible.

"How can the Ukrainians negotiate with the crocodile when its got their limbs in its jaws - which is what's happening," he said, "how can you negotiate with a burglar who's in the middle of carrying out violent armed robbery in your own house?"

Mr Johnson said there was a "sad irony" that the agreement was being signed just days after Europe celebrated victory over Nazi Germany on VE Day, but said it was necessary given the "grim circumstances" surrounding Putin's invasion.

"We are steadfast and unequivocal in our support to both Sweden and Finland and the signing of these security declarations is a symbol of the everlasting assurance between our nations."

Defence Secretary Ben Wallace said it was "inconceivable" that Britain would not help either Finland or Sweden if it were in crisis, even "without any big formal agreement".

[Lord Revan]

Well Britain gave Poland the promise of aid in the 1930s and we all know how that ended so I'm somewhat skeptical about this, at least the idea this amounts to anything else then a strongly worded letter to the Kremlin.

[GrosseAdmiralFox]

Well Britain gave Poland the promise of aid in the 1930s and we all know how that ended so I'm somewhat skeptical about this, at least the idea this amounts to anything else then a strongly worded letter to the Kremlin.

That was due to just how slow Britain was to mobilize, especially in the anti-war political atmosphere of the time. People forget that most of the world at the time was very anti-war.

[Coop D'etat]

Well Britain gave Poland the promise of aid in the 1930s and we all know how that ended so I'm somewhat skeptical about this, at least the idea this amounts to anything else then a strongly worded letter to the Kremlin.

Nah, this is the way of saying Sweden and Finland are effectively in NATO for the period of time between now and when the paperwork clears.

Also that guarentee of Poland is what committed the UK to an all out war that lead to total German defeat, so I'm not sure the analogy works.

[Zaune]

Also that guarentee of Poland is what committed the UK to an all out war that lead to total German defeat, so I'm not sure the analogy works.

It works if you look at it from Poland's point of view: Britain promised to declare war on Nazi Germany if they invaded Poland, and they kept that promise, but by the time they'd sent in the paperwork the Polish government had already been forced to capitulate.

And I can absolutely picture Johnson contriving something like that scenario on purpose, reasoning that he can get all the political benefits of being seen to Take A Firm Line on Russia but never have to back it up with a commitment of UK forces if he can just stall until the occupation is a fait accompli.

[Steel]

And I can absolutely picture Johnson contriving something like that scenario on purpose, reasoning that he can get all the political benefits of being seen to Take A Firm Line on Russia but never have to back it up with a commitment of UK forces if he can just stall until the occupation is a fait accompli.

That seems unlikely in the face of the reality we've seen: any Russian attack would inevitably fail to make any rapid progress, so he wouldn't be able to draw things out anywhere near long enough.