Broomstick wrote: ↑2022-05-23 04:31amSo how does Finland do most of its home heating?
Electricity, heat pumps (electricity but better), firewood (or pellets) and oil (don't think they've installed that in new homes post-2000). Often a combination of several in olders homes, my parents had a combi boiler that ran on fuel oil or firewood before they replaced it with a heatpump, which is the most common heat source in new homes. Either air to ground loop exchange models (I have one of these + firewood heaters). In more urban areas there might also exist district heating that uses waste heat from nearby industry. I had that when I lived in an apartment earlier. Though my current rural town as a few kilometers of district heating connected to a newly built heating plant that burns shredded wood.
Historically we've had lots of cheap electricity from nuclear and hydro (via norway & sweden).
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who did not.
When you said "heat pump" at first I thought you meant one that worked with the outside air, but my understand is that those don't work in truly cold climates. Then you referred to "ground loop" which has me wondering if you mean what we call "geothermal energy", which yes, does work on a heat-pump principal but interacts with the ground and, like I said, in English the emphasis is on the "geo" and less on the "pump" part of the operation.
I'm curious partly just because I'm curious (and I'm contemplating how well your systems would work in the US. Answer so far: very well in some places, not at all in others). But also because a group of friends and I are considering retiring to the Upper Peninsula of Michigan and we're trying to figure out how to power and heat the place. It's not suited to what's usually called an air pump in this region because it gets too cold (although I'm still learning about those). It's not suited to geothermal because of the geology - sure, the Earth is warm down deep, but to get there you have to blast through the Niagara Escarpment's dolomite. While that might be justified for certain industrial and resource extraction purposes doing so for household heating is not economically feasible unless you're an eccentric multi-millionaire. Which I am not. For heating we're looking at propane or some sort of wood burning - the place is 40 forested acres which makes for an ample woodlot, but then that leaves the problem of who among a group of retirees will be chopping wood.
Anyhow - enough of this diversion.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.Leonard Nimoy.
Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy
- No I mean those types of air pumps too, that's what my parents installed in their home, they are very common in the nordic countries. I plan to get one in the garage. The ones we got here work in cold climates and the tech is coming over to the US. They work down to -15 with a decent COP over direct electric, they work even after that but only as good as direct electric. Newer models have even lower working temps. So they work most of the year and when they don't, they still actually work, just as direct electric instead.
- The other style of pumps are not geothermal, they use the ground water table which is always a certain temp year around. Finland actually has the thickest crust on the globe at 50km except for the Andes and Tibetan mountains. So it's not suited at all for geothermal. This is really roundabout solar when one thinks about it. Depths vary from 150-250 meters, it's like drilling a water well.
- These don't need a borehole either, you could dig up the garden and lay down flexible tubing at a shallower depth but below the frost line, which a lot of people do when building a new home because the garden is all dug up anyway. It's also possible to run the loop into a lake that doesn't freeze over the year.
- Finally I'd look up the youtuber Technology Connections which has done a lot of talking about heat pumps from an american perspective.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who did not.
You two are talking past each other because you have different definitions of "warm". Americans think 75f/24c is a minimum warm temperature. Finns think it's more like 55f/13c, or less.
Dominus Atheos wrote: ↑2022-05-24 05:17am
You two are talking past each other because you have different definitions of "warm". Americans think 75f/24c is a minimum warm temperature. Finns think it's more like 55f/13c, or less.
Well depends where, inside anything below 18 degrees celsius is too cold to be honest and most of our houses are set at about 20 degrees or so (celsius obviously), I've not heard of anyone who'd think 13 degrees celsius (never mind lower then that) is an acceptable interior temperature and that's even in the dead of winter when it's below zero outside and the sun is a myth as everyone heard of it but no one as seen it.
Only time I can think of that a Finn would consider 13 degrees to be warm is during spring and outside.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
His Divine Shadow wrote: ↑2022-05-23 11:29pm
The ones we got here work in cold climates and the tech is coming over to the US. They work down to -15 with a decent COP over direct electric, they work even after that but only as good as direct electric. Newer models have even lower working temps. So they work most of the year and when they don't, they still actually work, just as direct electric instead.
Interesting. I'll have to look into that.
His Divine Shadow wrote: ↑2022-05-23 11:29pmThese don't need a borehole either, you could dig up the garden and lay down flexible tubing at a shallower depth but below the frost line, which a lot of people do when building a new home because the garden is all dug up anyway. It's also possible to run the loop into a lake that doesn't freeze over the year.
Ah, see that would be a problem - the site we're looking at has very shallow soil, and often the frost line in the area is below where the bedrock starts. Not saying it would be impossible, but it would be tricky.
The nearest lake does get a build up of ice over the winter, and there are also issues regarding utilization of Lake Huron (which really is the nearest lake) not to mention currents and ice along that shore can become quite destructive. Again, could be tricky. Still might be worth looking into.
Dominus Atheos wrote: ↑2022-05-24 05:17am
You two are talking past each other because you have different definitions of "warm". Americans think 75f/24c is a minimum warm temperature. Finns think it's more like 55f/13c, or less.
Depends on where in American you're talking about. And who you're talking about. From a personal preference I'm more Finnish than you'd expect (although I'm not Finnish - I'll blame the northern Russian ancestry I have). The area I'm talking about relocating has more in common with the Finnish climate than a lot of other places in the US.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.Leonard Nimoy.
Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy
The effective part of the borehole is actually part of the bedrock and not the soil itself, the bedrock where we live is basically under a tiny layer of gravel and was sticking up in places. The boring company charges you extra if the soil is too deep infact...
I don't really understand DA's point, does he think we keep our houses at 13C indoors or something, and that heat pumps can't keep a home above 20C in winter?
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who did not.
Dominus Atheos wrote: ↑2022-05-24 05:17am
You two are talking past each other because you have different definitions of "warm". Americans think 75f/24c is a minimum warm temperature. Finns think it's more like 55f/13c, or less.
Well depends where, inside anything below 18 degrees celsius is too cold to be honest and most of our houses are set at about 20 degrees or so (celsius obviously), I've not heard of anyone who'd think 13 degrees celsius (never mind lower then that) is an acceptable interior temperature and that's even in the dead of winter when it's below zero outside and the sun is a myth as everyone heard of it but no one as seen it.
Only time I can think of that a Finn would consider 13 degrees to be warm is during spring and outside.
I was remembering something I heard based off this:
Researchers: Finns happiest at 14 degrees Celsius, but the heat won't hurt either
Apologies if that is wrong. Also, I'm under the impression that ground source heat pumps can only get to about 55f, although that was in the context of using ground source heat pumps as cooling, not heating.
His Divine Shadow wrote: ↑2022-05-24 11:15am
The effective part of the borehole is actually part of the bedrock and not the soil itself, the bedrock where we live is basically under a tiny layer of gravel and was sticking up in places. The boring company charges you extra if the soil is too deep infact...
I don't really understand DA's point, does he think we keep our houses at 13C indoors or something, and that heat pumps can't keep a home above 20C in winter?
55 degrees C is as hot as a heat pump can get tap water. Any hotter than that they use electricity, which they tend to do once a week or something to prevent legionella from forming in the warm water reservoir.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who did not.
We're seeing more heat pumps appearing in the UK too because their efficiency results in heating bills being substantially less. The main reasons they haven't become mainstream yet are twofold:
Not all homes would see a cost benefit, in fact the place I live we were told when we looked into it that a heat pump would actually increase our heating costs compared to our gas boiler and this is not an old house by any means. Of course that was before the cost of living crisis. And you know, Ukraine...
Workers digging through the rubble of an apartment building in Mariupol have found 200 bodies in the basement, according to Ukrainian authorities.
Mayoral staff confirmed grim reminders of the horrors inflicted on the region are still coming to light in the ruined city.
The bodies were decomposing, and a stench permeated the neighbourhood, said Petro Andryushchenko, an adviser to the mayor.
It's not clear when they were discovered.
Perched on the Sea of Azov, Mariupol was relentlessly pounded during a months-long siege.
A siege which finally ended last week after around 2,500 Ukrainian fighters abandoned a steel plant where they had made their last stand. Russian forces already held the rest of the city.
An estimated 100,000 people remain in the city (out of a pre-war population of 450,000 dwindled by people fleeing) many of whom are now trapped without food, water, heat or electricity.
Ukrainian authorities have said at least 21,000 people have been killed — and accused Russia of trying to cover up the extent of the horrors by bringing in mobile cremation equipment.
They have also alleged some of the dead were buried in mass graves.
Strikes have hit a maternity hospital and a theatre where civilians were sheltering in the time Russia has been targeting the city.
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy accused the Russians of waging "total war," seeking to inflict as much death and destruction as possible on his country.
"Indeed, there has not been such a war on the European continent for 77 years," Mr Zelenskyy told Ukrainians on Monday.
The invasion began with expectations that Russia might overtake the country in a blitz lasting only days or a few weeks.
But stiff Ukrainian resistance has bogged down Moscow's troops, with the help of Western weapons.
The Kremlin is now focused on the eastern industrial heartland of the Donbas - where Moscow-backed separatists have fought Ukrainian forces for eight years.
Dominus Atheos wrote: ↑2022-05-24 05:17am
You two are talking past each other because you have different definitions of "warm". Americans think 75f/24c is a minimum warm temperature. Finns think it's more like 55f/13c, or less.
Well depends where, inside anything below 18 degrees celsius is too cold to be honest and most of our houses are set at about 20 degrees or so (celsius obviously), I've not heard of anyone who'd think 13 degrees celsius (never mind lower then that) is an acceptable interior temperature and that's even in the dead of winter when it's below zero outside and the sun is a myth as everyone heard of it but no one as seen it.
Only time I can think of that a Finn would consider 13 degrees to be warm is during spring and outside.
I was remembering something I heard based off this:
Researchers: Finns happiest at 14 degrees Celsius, but the heat won't hurt either
Apologies if that is wrong. Also, I'm under the impression that ground source heat pumps can only get to about 55f, although that was in the context of using ground source heat pumps as cooling, not heating.
Never heard of that study and honestly most Finns I know would consider 13-14 degrees (celsius) interiors to be "too cold" and I've lived my whole life in the Greater Helsinki area so I've met quite a few Finns (in addition to being one myself), most thermostats I've seen have been set at 18-22 degrees (Celsius).
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
His Divine Shadow wrote: ↑2022-05-25 03:18am
I think they must be talking outdoors temperatures...
That sounds like a reasonal assumption to make, as it doesn't fit reality as far as I know for interiors. the Problem is that news article doesn't include a link to the study or provide any details.
As for the item that started this whole tangent, to me it seems like an impotent attempt at enforcing dominion or trying to get a casus belli to invade Finland (probably for the Russian laws as Putin doesn't really seem to care about his international reputation.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
As Russia's scorched earth policy continues, Ukrainian forces scramble to evacuate civilians who are surrounded on three sides in Lyman.
ITV News' Dan Rivers and Jonathan Wald are on the ground there, along with the rest of the team: Krystyna Fedosyeyeva, Alvis Luksa and Kenny Fillingham
The scramble to rescue those surrounded on three sides by the Russian army in Lyman has become more urgent with each passing day.
On Thursday, the last Ukrainian soldiers finally pulled out and blew up the only bridge into town as Russian artillery continued to hammer it.
This week we filmed with Ukraine’s 13th Assault company of its territorial defence force as their troops braved the shelling to evacuate the dwindling number of civilians left in the town.
Among them was 68-year-old Alexander Tretyakov, who along with his wife Vera, 72, and their son, packed up what they could, including their cat and a litter of kittens, born one month into the war.
They left Lyman knowing they may never go back.
The brave men who rescued them risked their lives to make the mad dash over the bridge and drop supplies to those who refuse to leave - while collecting those who feel they have no choice.
We’re told there is a small minority of residents in Lyman who are staunchly pro-Russian and think they’ll be better off living under the Kremlin’s rule.
Most, however, want to get out, knowing what happened in places like Bucha.
The fall of Lyman is one piece of the jigsaw of the wider battle of the Donbas.
Further south, Russian troops are putting pressure on the town of Bakhmut, attempting to sever the road north to Lysychansk.
Here the Ukrainians are holding the line, but they are under pressure. President Putin’s ambitions in Ukraine have had to be checked with each passing week.
Having been humiliated in his attempt to capture Kyiv, his troops have also tried and failed to encircle Kharkiv.
Ukrainian forces drove them back across the border in another stunning reversal, propelled largely by superior western supplied weapons.
Want a quick and expert briefing on the biggest news stories? Listen to our latest podcasts to find out What You Need To Know
So now Russia is concentrating its fire power on towns like Lyman, Bakhmut and Sievierodonetsk.
Now there is no rapid blitzkrieg to capture large swathes of territory, just an attritional slog to grind out an advance, using heavy weapons and multiple rocket systems to flatten any town that resists.
Much of the frontline now follows the natural frontier of rivers like the Donets.
The tempo of this war is slowing to a funereal rhythm of duelling artillery, with success measured in yards, not miles.
While Russia is making gains, it is coming at a heavy cost, and its supply lines are being stretched along with the morale of its exhausted troops.
The battle of the Donbas is only just beginning, but it may last for many months.
European Union leaders have agreed to embargo most Russian oil imports into the bloc by year-end as part of new sanctions on Moscow after Hungary blocked a total ban.
The deal would cover more than two-thirds of Russian oil imports and exert ‘‘maximum pressure on Russia to end the war [in Ukraine]," EU Council President Charles Michel said.
Ursula Von der Leyen, the head of the EU's executive branch, said the punitive move will “effectively cut around 90% of oil imports from Russia to the EU by the end of the year.”
An agreement was reached late on Monday evening after hours of negotiations at a summit in Brussels.
EU leaders have already hit Moscow with five rounds of sanctions, but a crucial deal banning oil imports had been held-up by Hungary, which gets more than 60% of its oil from Russia.
The compromise agreement temporarily exempts Russian oil delivered to Europe by pipeline, a key concern of Hungary’s Prime Minister Viktor Orban.
The new package of sanctions will also include an asset freeze and travel ban on individuals, while Russia’s biggest bank, Sberbank, will be excluded from SWIFT, the major global system for financial transfers from which the EU previously banned several smaller Russian banks. Three big Russian state-owned broadcasters will be prevented from distributing their content in the EU.
“We want to stop Russia's war machine," Michel said, lauding what he called a “remarkable achievement."
“More than ever it’s important to show that we are able to be strong, that we are able to be firm, that we are able to be tough,” he added.
Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelenskyy had earlier urged EU leaders to end “internal arguments that only prompt Russia to put more and more pressure on the whole of Europe.”
Mr Zelensky said Moscow must be made to feel ‘‘the price for what it is doing against Ukraine" and the rest of Europe.
Only then, he added, would Russia be forced to “start seeking peace.”
Plans for an embargo on Russian oil were first announced by EU leaders in early May, but were met with resistance by Hungary, as well as Slovakia, the Czech Republic and Bulgaria.
Hungary is particularly reliant on Russian oil, which is supplied through a Soviet-era pipeline.
"They (Hungary) are in a difficult position because they are using the Russian oil and because their refineries are only working on this particular crude," Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte said at the end of Monday's summit. He added, "so in that sense I think they have a point."
“More than ever it’s important to show that we are able to be strong, that we are able to be firm, that we are able to be tough,” he added.
European Union leaders have agreed to embargo most Russian oil imports into the bloc by year-end as part of new sanctions on Moscow after Hungary blocked a total ban.
The deal would cover more than two-thirds of Russian oil imports and exert ‘‘maximum pressure on Russia to end the war [in Ukraine]," EU Council President Charles Michel said.
Ursula Von der Leyen, the head of the EU's executive branch, said the punitive move will “effectively cut around 90% of oil imports from Russia to the EU by the end of the year.”
An agreement was reached late on Monday evening after hours of negotiations at a summit in Brussels.
EU leaders have already hit Moscow with five rounds of sanctions, but a crucial deal banning oil imports had been held-up by Hungary, which gets more than 60% of its oil from Russia.
The compromise agreement temporarily exempts Russian oil delivered to Europe by pipeline, a key concern of Hungary’s Prime Minister Viktor Orban.
The new package of sanctions will also include an asset freeze and travel ban on individuals, while Russia’s biggest bank, Sberbank, will be excluded from SWIFT, the major global system for financial transfers from which the EU previously banned several smaller Russian banks. Three big Russian state-owned broadcasters will be prevented from distributing their content in the EU.
“We want to stop Russia's war machine," Michel said, lauding what he called a “remarkable achievement."
“More than ever it’s important to show that we are able to be strong, that we are able to be firm, that we are able to be tough,” he added.
Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelenskyy had earlier urged EU leaders to end “internal arguments that only prompt Russia to put more and more pressure on the whole of Europe.”
Mr Zelensky said Moscow must be made to feel ‘‘the price for what it is doing against Ukraine" and the rest of Europe.
Only then, he added, would Russia be forced to “start seeking peace.”
Plans for an embargo on Russian oil were first announced by EU leaders in early May, but were met with resistance by Hungary, as well as Slovakia, the Czech Republic and Bulgaria.
Hungary is particularly reliant on Russian oil, which is supplied through a Soviet-era pipeline.
"They (Hungary) are in a difficult position because they are using the Russian oil and because their refineries are only working on this particular crude," Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte said at the end of Monday's summit. He added, "so in that sense I think they have a point."
“More than ever it’s important to show that we are able to be strong, that we are able to be firm, that we are able to be tough,” he added.
Yeah, it's kind of understandable in Hungary's case, as the situation of Venezuela proved. Venezuela's crude is basically a sort of tar and expensive to process. The reason they didn't change over was the lack of other options.
That has changed with fracking and the new infrastructure that has been coming online. These new sources are cheaper to process so many of the former Venezuela-only refineries are undergoing upgrades to the lighter crude, leaving Venezuela to dry.
Hungary is in a situation where it has no alternative sources to process, leaving it with just that one source.
US adding fuel to the fire with new weapons - Russia
The Kremlin has accused the US of "adding fuel to the fire deliberately" after Washington said it would supply Ukraine with advanced missile systems.
"Such supplies" do not encourage Kyiv to resume peace talks, Russian spokesman Dmitry Peskov told reporters, adding that Washington wanted to "fight Russia to the last Ukrainian".
The US agreed to provide the precision-guided missiles, which can reach targets as far as 70km (45 miles), after gaining assurances that the weapons would not be used to attack targets inside Russia.
Ukraine's President Zelensky has said his country has "no intention" of doing so.
Earlier, Russia’s deputy foreign minister Sergei Ryabkov said the planned delivery of these new weapons to Ukraine increased the risk of drawing the US into direct conflict with Russia.
"Any arms supplies that continue... increase the risks of such a development," the state news agency RIA Novosti quoted him as saying.
"This is unprecedented, this is dangerous," he added.
To Paraphrase: "HEY! YOU CAN"T DO THAT! THAT"S CHEATING!"
Or am I the only one hearing the whining baby in that statement?
Nitram, slightly high on cough syrup: Do you know you're beautiful?
Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" -- Leonard Nimoy, last Tweet
LadyTevar wrote: ↑2022-06-01 10:49am
Or am I the only one hearing the whining baby in that statement?
Dunno, but I hear it less as whining and more as a threat given that from what I understand Russian military doctrine includes a concept called 'escalate to deescalate.'
When it comes to statements from the Kremlin there really isn't any difference between whining and threatening.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.Leonard Nimoy.
Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy
And it is of course entirely true that this does not encourage the Ukranian government to resume peace talks.
So I was going to bed and typing on my phone last night, but I've read elsewhere that Russian military doctrine includes this concept called 'escalate to deescalate.' The idea is that in the event of a major defeat (such as being forced to retreat from Ukraine) where the Russian leadership decides their forces are sufficiently threatened they respond with a limited nuclear attack as a warning to fuck off and let their armies retreat (or some other goal) on the assumption that the other side will back down rather than deal with the consequences of going full nuclear in response.
This would of course set the precedent that countries can get away with a little nuking in the future.
Dunno how accurate or likely that is, but it sounds lot more plausible to me than the whole "NATO troops setting foot on Russian clay will inevitably draw a nuclear response" thing.
Oh, yeah - that's going to work as well as the notion in 1941 that smashing US ships in Pearl Harbor would get the Americans to back down and stay out of WWII.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.Leonard Nimoy.
Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy
Broomstick wrote: ↑2022-06-02 04:48am
Oh, yeah - that's going to work as well as the notion in 1941 that smashing US ships in Pearl Harbor would get the Americans to back down and stay out of WWII.
Will it? If Putin nukes a single NATO base or some part of the Ukranian army and doesn't follow it up with further attacks do you think Biden is going to commit America to winning a nuclear war with Russia knowing that it will bare minimum lead to entire US cities being destroyed? How do you see that decision process going? Is Biden just so adamant in his principled refusal to allow nuclear weapons to be used without nation-ending consequences that he'll accept that as the price of doing business?
Retaliate, sure. I can see him ordering reprisals against Russian bases or troops or something. But that would be something Putin has calculated is a price he's willing to pay in this scenario, and the end result is that we've established countries can nuke other countries a little without being destroyed.
Broomstick wrote: ↑2022-06-02 04:48am
Oh, yeah - that's going to work as well as the notion in 1941 that smashing US ships in Pearl Harbor would get the Americans to back down and stay out of WWII.
Will it? If Putin nukes a single NATO base or some part of the Ukranian army and doesn't follow it up with further attacks do you think Biden is going to commit America to winning a nuclear war with Russia knowing that it will bare minimum lead to entire US cities being destroyed? How do you see that decision process going? Is Biden just so adamant in his principled refusal to allow nuclear weapons to be used without nation-ending consequences that he'll accept that as the price of doing business?
Retaliate, sure. I can see him ordering reprisals against Russian bases or troops or something. But that would be something Putin has calculated is a price he's willing to pay in this scenario, and the end result is that we've established countries can nuke other countries a little without being destroyed.
I don't think it's AMERICA you'd have to worry about. How many Nuke-Capable countries are there?
I would like to think the Oligarchs and Russian Military would refuse to follow the order for a Nuke strike. I would like to think that's the line they will not cross. I would like to think the Russian population would rise up to stop it, but they'd know nothing until after the Nuke hit and be victims of the retaliation.
I'd like to think Russians love their children too...
... but at this point I'd fully believe Putin would nuke Kyev, or even Moscow itself, if it would keep his hold on power.
Nitram, slightly high on cough syrup: Do you know you're beautiful?
Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" -- Leonard Nimoy, last Tweet
LadyTevar wrote: ↑2022-06-02 11:19am
I don't think it's AMERICA you'd have to worry about. How many Nuke-Capable countries are there?
Dunno, but Russia and America stand out as having the biggest nuclear arsenals by a very wide margin. Their closest peers in that area trail behind by thousands and are mostly NATO members that would probably follow the lead of the senior partner in that particular alliance, largely uninvolved in all this and/or China. Seems like a safe assumption the US government would be making that call.
