Help newbie - e-mail x-change with Trek-obsessed brother

[Baron Scarpia]

Hey all,

New to the boards, but have been checking out the site for sometime.

My brother is an ardent Star Trek fan, which has minorly annoyed me to no end for over 15 years now (I am 26, he is 28). I'm not really a rabid SW fan, but I do find it far more interesting and enjoyable than Trek, which has the tendency to induce naps in me.

So anyway, my brother operates a spoof of Star Trek, called "Star Traks" (oh so creative!), and I jokingly challenged him to the Empire-Federation debate. I should have realized that he would take it more seriously than I meant, but there it is.

Quoted here is the last e-mail from him, and you can see our exchange so far. I'm not lazy, but I am at work, so my time to research this stuff is limited, and I figured I could ask folks who undoubtedly would have a lot of it at their fingertips.

Here goes (my comments have the ">" next to them, naturally):

You truly have been brainwashed by Lucas and his minions, haven't you?
Rarely have I witnessed such a display of reaching beyond the available
evidence toward entirely insupportable conclusions.

>
> INCORRECT! Star Destroyers, as well as all Imperial
> ships, use TURBOlasers, not lasers. Turbolasers are
> clearly NOT lasers by any means. How do we know?
> Simple observation. A turbolaser bolt, besides being
> visible in a vacuum (a patent impossibility for a
> laser), operates at sublight speed and is finite (we
> see the bolt begin and end, we see it travel through
> space, we see it connect). If it doesn't look like a
> duck, doesn't quack like a duck, it ain't a duck.

> Star Destroyer turbolasers are, as evidenced by the
> films, far more powerful than Federation phasers in
> performance. How do we know? In ESB, we see a Star
> Destroyer non-chalantly vaporizing large asteroids
> with its turbolaser banks. The Enterprise, if you
> will recall, had difficulty destroying even one with
> its phasers. Now, add to this that the Federation
> ships have only, what 6 phaser banks? Imperial Star
> Destroyers have over 100 Turbolaser batteries alone,
> not to mention its point-defense cannons.
>

OOOOOOOH. TURBO-LASERS! Yeah, and my bathroom cleaner has super suds.
Big deal. The lasers I refered to in TNG met all of the physical
properties that you mentioned. As for the power issue, Federation phasers
have varying power levels and are perfectly capable of taking out a
sizable asteroid when necessary. If it's too big for phasers, we've got
compression phasers, photon torpedoes, quantum torpedoes, tri-cobalt
devices, and a deflector dish that can be reconfigured to do pretty much
anything from altering the gravitational constant of the universe to
destabilizing matter.

Federation starships can have far more than 6 phaser banks. Actually,
banks are no longer the operative words. 24th century phaser systems
are in bands that can track a target or multiple targets through firing
arcs around the vessel at any possible angle. Torpedoes have tracking
and homing mechanisms never seen from Imperial weaponry.

> Manueverability won't be that much of an issue for
> Star Destroyers, as they far better-armored than
> Federation ships and can take a lot more punishment.
>

Punishment? Have you seen Nemesis? Or Insurrection? Or DS9?
Voyager? (Gack!) Fed ships are not exactly weak.

> INCORRECT! Shields in the Star Wars universe are
> quite powerful, and Federite claims of the opposite
> are unfounded. In the RoTJ novelization, the bridge
> of Ackbar's ship is hit by a blast equivalent to a
> multi-megaton nuclear bomb, and its shields are
> undamaged. Imperial SDs survived a half our in
> point-blank combat with the Rebel ships, under fire
> from their turbolasers (more powerful than phasers,
> mind you), before shields began to fail.
>
> The shield generator claim is bogus, but unfortunately
> propagated by SW sources. However, these sources
> (RPG, computer games) are not canon, and are so full
> of other contradictions of the films that they cannot
> be relied upon A perfect example of this is their
> obvious error in the length of the Executor.

HAHAHAHAHA! You're pulling out a novelization? That's a writer's
embellishment of the events. Good lord, man! Stick to what's on the
screen. That's the only thing that counts.

>
> Regardless, we have detailed technical schematics from
> the first film for Star Destroyers, and the globes are
> clearly labeled as SENSOR globes, not shield globes.

Where are these schematics? And when then is Lucasarts, George Lucas'
own company, continuing with the idea that these are shield globes?
BECAUSE THEY ARE!!!

> In this light, one realizes the assumption they are
> shield generators based on RoTJ is a complete
> misinterpretation of the events of the Executor's
> demise.
>
> Ackbar ordered all Rebel ships to converge on the
> Executor and bombard it. This was well over 20 large
> capital ships. Such a fast and sudden barrage from so
> many turbolaser batteries overloaded Executor's
> shields, causing them to drop temporarily. As a
> CONSEQUENCE of this, the Rebel A-wing was able to
> destroy the port sensor globe. Almost simultaneously,
> the officer on the bridge realized the deflector
> shields were gone. Bad luck then set in, as a forward
> point-defense cannon nailed an A-Wing (proof of
> excellent marksmanship for the Imp cannons), which of
> course sent it careening into the bridge.
> Unfortunately, there was not enough time to activate
> auxillary controls, because the massive gravitational
> pull of the Death Star took hold too fast.
>

You're trying to create a series of coincidences, when the simple
explanation is the correct one. The shield generator globe is destroyer,
which takes down the shields, allowing an out-of-control Rebel ship to
fly into the bridge.

> Again, Imp ships don't use "lasers," so yes, a swarm
> of TIEs would be a perfect distraction while Imp Star
> Destroyers annhilated the Feds ship-to-ship.
>

Oh come on. Tie fighter lasers are weak. However, hundreds of them
can add up.

> Since transporters can't move through shields/heavy
> armor, they'd be useless. Besides, once aboard a Star
> Destroyer, I doubt the Federation Red Shirts would be
> very effective...
>

Heavy armor? Transporters can beam people inside a Borg cube and
thousands of feet below the surface of a planet. You think a little sheet
of metal is going to stop them? Additionally, there are windows all
over star destroyers. If the metal's a problem (which I seriously doubt),
beam through those. The only way the Empire is going to counteract a
transporter is with shields.

> "Ages?" Not really, Han plotted the course in a
> matter of seconds, and it was for a jump to take them
> ACROSS THE GALAXY. Keep in mind Imperial hyperdrive
> is far faster than Warp drive. Imperial fleets could
> be bombarding Federation colonies to dust and it would
> take any Federation ship days to reach them. Imperial
> ships could transverse our entire galaxy in a few
> days.
>
> However, we have evidence from the film that even
> WITHOUT hyperdrive, SW ships can go at speeds
> faster-than-light. In ESB, Han travels from Hoth to
> Bespin WITHOUT a hyperdrive. During this trip,
> there's no reason to assume he couldn't use his
> weapons, now is there?

With that logic, we have no evidence that the Star Wars galaxy is all
that large. Judging by the "speeds" attained during the asteroid chase,
he wasn't going all that fast. Maybe he could pick it up a bit in open
space, but the simple fact is that scientific reality doesn't hold in
the Star Wars universe at all anyway.

Not that it does in Trek. Um...why are we having this conversation
again? There's the rub, isn't it? We're comparing apples and shrimp
here. Oh well, why worry about logic?

> INCORRECT. This is a false assumption based on
> Piett's statement that they couldn't track the Falcon.
> However, one must again realize how FAST hyperdrive
> is. It is factors ahead of Warp drive. There's not
> reason to assume they couldn't detect ships at warp,
> since warp is so damned slow.
>

You're reaching again. Sensors in the Star Wars universe plainly suck.
The star destroyer couldn't even detect a large ship attached to ITS
OWN HULL!

> Oh come on. When, in all of ST canon, has a Fed ship
> going warp speed engaged a target NOT going warp
> speed? Explain to me how, if you were going to speed
> of sound, you'd be able to accurately fire on a moving
> car on the ground.
>

This is why we have really good computers.

> And again, such a transport would not be possible,
> given that you can't transport through shields/heavy
> armor. And if these tri-cobalt devices are such
> saves, how come they didn't use them against the
> Dominion? Come to think of it, why don't we see Fed
> ships using these tactics all the time? Or like when
> the Klingons attacked DS9? What, Klingons are so
> tactically stupid they don't think to do warp straffes
> on a stationary target?
>

Tri-cobalt devices were using to obliterate the massive Caretaker array
in one blast. As for tactics, the possibilities have always been
there; however, we must make allowances for the limitations of television.
Viewers don't want to watch a warp attack on a stationary target
because there would be nothing to see other than the explosion.

> Obviously, firing on stationary/slow-moving targets
> In come thousands of Imperial ships. In addition to
> the thousands of star destroyers, there are tens of
> thousands of smaller support capital ships, frigates,
> cruisers, and millions of TIEs. As well as hundreds
> of millions of ground troops. Having the vastly
> superior hyperdrive, Imperial battle fleets zip from
> Federation planet to Federation planet, launching
> lightning assaults before the Feds can even organize a
> meeting about responding. Since Fed planets don't
> have shields, Star Destroyers just run over the meager
> defenses in orbit, and then launch ground assaults.
> Since the Federation doesn't have any ground equipment
> besides pathetically-armored foot soldiers, security
> forces who tend to die whenever onscreen and some
> hovering transports, Imperial hovertanks, AT-ATs,
> AT-STs and fighters demolish all land forces. Once in
> control of a planet, Imps can establish a shield that
> is strong enough to deflect any bombardment, rendering
> any Fed attempt to retake a planet useless. In
> theory, the EMpire could zip around from planet to
> planet without even having to engage the Federation
> fleet. Even if they did, as I explained, the Fed
> ships would be made mincemeat.
>
> Now, that's not going into the massive industrial
> advantage the Empire has, since they control a MILLION
> systems, while the Federation has 150 planets (as
> Picard explicitely says). The Imperial fleet dwarfs
> the Federation ship exponentially. We know from the
> Dominion wars that the Federation, in their greatest
> fight for survival, could only cobble together 600
> ships, very few of which were Galaxy-Class, and many
> ships were not totally done--launched incomplete and
> fitted with the minimum of weapons, engines and
> shields--and all in desperation. A very generous
> estimate of the total Federation fleet would be 2,000
> ships. The Empire has over 25,000 Star Destroyers
> alone, not to mention a million support craft and
> millions upon millions of fighters.
>

We were strictly discussing ship-to-ship. I cannot discuss planetary
issues because I have no canon references for the defensive and
offensive systems available in that arena. I was talking about two fleets in
open space. And since we can't even agree about the relative power of
weapons we can see, I'm not even going to get into speculation about
ones that we can't.

You had to bring up the Death Star, eh? Okay, assuming we're talking
about the Episode IV Death Star, which was obviously unshielded, the
first trick would be dealing with the big gun. This doesn't actually seem
like much a trick, though. It's not going to be able to hit fast
moving starships, so the job would be blanketing that area with torpedoes to
wipe out the various emitters required to form the large beam. Better
yet, beam a bunch of torpedoes and tri-cobalts onto the big gun and
obliterate it. I doubt the Feds would even bother with that, though.
They'd probably just hack in and order the whole thing to shut down.
Running the trench is possible, though. Get a well-shielded runabout with
a few guided micro-torpedoes, or, once again, if you know where the
port is, beam the explosives into it. BOOM!

Alan


> So, afraid the Federation is toast. Unless Q comes to
> save you, but since he didn't lift a finger to help
> against the Dominion or Borg, it seems unlikely.
>
> (notice--didn't even need to mention the huge
> advantage of a planet-destroying Death Star, against
> which the Feds wouldn't be as lucky as the Rebels,
> since the wouldn't have fighters for the trench run,
> nor a Jedi to make a one-in-a-million shot.)
>
> Cheers.
>
> *hums Imperial March*

[2000AD]

I'm asuming he's using the Outrageous Okrons (sp ) for Trek evidence of "immunity to lasers". COunter this by saying that in Best of Both Worlds (i think) the Borg used a laser to "carve up" the Enterprise. There's also an episode where Picard wont take the Ent. into an area due to high laser activity (little help with the ep.)

If he's playing the name game, saying they must be lasers because they're called lasers, point out Trek phaser rifles must be ballistic weapons with grooves in the barrel to spin the bullet because they're called rifles.

Alternatively RTFW: Read the Fucking Website, that big link in the top corner!

[Ghost Rider]

1. He has no idea what a laser is and point out to him that the BORG used Lasers...that's right his own lovable show bites him in the ass. There are even other examples of Worf talking about laser activity on a planet and them taking preventive measures.

2. His grasp of technobabble is high...look at Mike 5 minute for a nice clean smackdown. It works on most...but the ardent still argue. Yes, because it has Quantum in the name...heehee

3. Ossus...if you see him around...will present a far more better look at Nemesis endurance rating, but suffice to say an ISD can survive point blank asteroid hits for days on end...the Enterprise hasn't shown a tenth of that level.

4. You might want to remind him to look at canon...but that might be strecthing it. It disctintly shows the globes were destroyed AFTER the shields were down.

5. TIE laser are KT range...look at ANH...again strecthing it, since it outlandish he hasn't seen the movies without some eye for something I know not what.

6. Point out that Limestone at times disrupt transporters, as well as just about everything else...Mike's database truly is wonderful. But point out shielding has prevented ALL transporters.

7. Speed argument ...go see TPM and note they reach from edge of galaxy to core in less then 12 hours...smaller galaxy...jeebus.

8. Okay at this point, you're arguing with a wall but point out that they have shown superlumina...ah fuck it...he'll just harp even though the Falcon was possibly in a dead spot and at times the Enterprise couldn't detect anomalies inside their own ship.

9. Okay...for weapons, you can smack him down that AOTC demonstrated that ships as small as the Slave-1 can be armed with devices with hundreds of MT...and a 20 year old transport(acclamantors) have 6 guns rated at 200GT.

If he responds...like he will..point him here and an appropriate representative will crush him.

[neoolong]

If he's playing the name game, saying they must be lasers because they're called lasers, point out Trek phaser rifles must be ballistic weapons with grooves in the barrel to spin the bullet because they're called rifles.

Alternatively RTFW: Read the Fucking Website, that big link in the top corner!

Don't forget, Star Destroyers can now destroy stars because that is their name.

[Ghost Rider]

If he's playing the name game, saying they must be lasers because they're called lasers, point out Trek phaser rifles must be ballistic weapons with grooves in the barrel to spin the bullet because they're called rifles.

Alternatively RTFW: Read the Fucking Website, that big link in the top corner!

Don't forget, Star Destroyers can now destroy stars because that is their name.

I wonder what that makes the Death Star...

[2000AD]

Also, for the hyperdrive speeds, point out that:

A) There's a quote (from one of the Black Fleet Trilogy, little help) that put's the SW galaxy at 120,000 LY.
Take a look at the map in any NJO novel or here: http://www.starwars.com/eu/news/1999/10 ... 007_1.html

b) In TPM Darth Maul travelled from Coruscant in the Core to Tatooine in the Outer Rim in under a day! This gives a lower limit of 20 million C.

C) RTFW!

[neoolong]

If he's playing the name game, saying they must be lasers because they're called lasers, point out Trek phaser rifles must be ballistic weapons with grooves in the barrel to spin the bullet because they're called rifles.

Alternatively RTFW: Read the Fucking Website, that big link in the top corner!

Don't forget, Star Destroyers can now destroy stars because that is their name.

I wonder what that makes the Death Star...

A star that causes death. Duh.

[Baron Scarpia]

Thanks for the replies. As I said, I'm at work, so don't have the time right now to RTFW, sorry. Also, the web site isn't laid out as easily as I had hoped. Finding what I'm looking for is hard.

Also, why aren't we able to use links to pages on this web site? I'd like to just forward my bro to the pages on turbolaser power, but you can only seem to link to the main page...

[2000AD]

Don't bother sending him a link to the TL page, send him a link and challenge him to debate Mike Wong.

[2000AD]

That should be "send him a link to the main site in general ..."

[Ghost Rider]

Actually I second that thought, have him challenge Mike or like I said come to the website.

If his convictions are that strong he should have no worries in destroying us brainwashed hordes.

[Ted C]

Also, why aren't we able to use links to pages on this web site? I'd like to just forward my bro to the pages on turbolaser power, but you can only seem to link to the main page...

Mike is using frames. If you want the URL for a particular page, you need to write click somewhere on the content and look at the properties.

[Darth Servo]

Get TONS of TNG gems in the canon database. Also check out the myths pages as well as the logical fallacies page (which fallacies your opponent committs by the dozen)

Also, why aren't we able to use links to pages on this web site? I'd like to just forward my bro to the pages on turbolaser power, but you can only seem to link to the main page...

Hold cursor over the desired link and you can see the full address at the bottom of the page which you can then type in manually.

[seanrobertson]

Hey all,

New to the boards, but have been checking out the site for sometime.

My brother is an ardent Star Trek fan, which has minorly annoyed me to no end for over 15 years now (I am 26, he is 28). I'm not really a rabid SW fan, but I do find it far more interesting and enjoyable than Trek, which has the tendency to induce naps in me.

I know what you mean, though I enjoy both. Even some ENT and VGR episodes!

> Star Destroyer turbolasers are, as evidenced by the
> films, far more powerful than Federation phasers in
> performance. How do we know? In ESB, we see a Star
> Destroyer non-chalantly vaporizing large asteroids
> with its turbolaser banks. The Enterprise, if you
> will recall, had difficulty destroying even one with
> its phasers.

When was this? If you're thinking of the Yonada asteroid, it was a lot bigger than the 40m asteroid vaporized in TESB.

I wouldn't claim that the biggest Trek phasers couldn't "vaporize" that asteroid in TESB. That kind of overstatement isn't necessary to whip your brother's position anyhow: tell him that shot is one of the light weapons on an ISD, and that the latter's HEAVY guns are absurdly powerful, into the thousands of gigatons per shot range.

If he continues to insist that this can't be, that ISDs have limited firepower, ask him to explain Jan Dodonna's "the Death Star has a firepower greater than half the Imperial Starfleet" line. Be generous to your brother and guess that "greater than half" equals a full 100%...that's an absurd claim, but it can be useful to hammer the point home.

Then your brother will be in the position of:

A--denying what's plainly seen onscreen, something he claims to cherish, in disputing that the DS has a firepower far greater than 2E32W;

B--disputing Dodonna's words themselves like "firepower," though you can remind him firePOWER includes a time component; therefore, he can't say that the Starfleet could blast a planet apart, only it'd take them "far longer" (also remind him that in blowing apart a globe, you either do it all at once or you don't);

C--playing with nos. games, trying to imagine that ISDs are individually weak because the Starfleet is composed of quadrillions of ships OR that the Empire only has hundreds or thousands of ships, yet each one is wielding but a few orders of magnitude lesser firepower than the DS itself...IOW, either way he goes, he's screwed there.

As Mike has said in the past, the the short-hand way to win any ST v. SW scenario is just to say, "Death Star."

Now, add to this that the Federation
> ships have only, what 6 phaser banks? Imperial Star
> Destroyers have over 100 Turbolaser batteries alone,
> not to mention its point-defense cannons.
>

Depends on the Federation ship...and again, I wouldn't get caught up in this game of minutiae; your brother will focus on that, most likely, and use that as a red herring over what the argument's really about.

But FWIW, in "Conundrum," Worf says the E-D has ten phaser banks. It's a moot point, however, since only one is typically used against a single target, and only two of those phaser arrays are big enough to pack any wallop.

OOOOOOOH. TURBO-LASERS! Yeah, and my bathroom cleaner has super suds.
Big deal. The lasers I refered to in TNG met all of the physical
properties that you mentioned.

Ask him, so what? The POWER, not the physical properties, are what we're interested in...and to my knowledge, NO observed laser used in TNG is anywhere near 30,000 terawatts. Even Borg cutting lasers--which, in fairness, are generally only used on unshielded targets--needn't be more than a few terawatts ("Q Who?," "BOBW").

As for the power issue, Federation phasers
have varying power levels and are perfectly capable of taking out a
sizable asteroid when necessary. If it's too big for phasers, we've got
compression phasers, photon torpedoes, quantum torpedoes, tri-cobalt
devices, and a deflector dish that can be reconfigured to do pretty much
anything from altering the gravitational constant of the universe to
destabilizing matter.

Compression phasers on a starship? Bogus claim.

Photorps and quantum torpedoes? That's nice, but they're not THAT much more powerful than phasers...refer to the battle in "Yesterday's Enterprise" for a rough comparative sense of the two weapons.

Tri-cobalt missiles? Used once onscreen against an IMMOBILE target, and they rely on subspace disruption ("20,000 teracochranes") to shear a target apart. Against shielded targets they might be useless.

Deflector dish weapon? Used all of twice and was VERY dangerous to the firing ship. Plus, it was only used on a mammoth, immobile Borg cube. Tell him it is pathetic to assume ISDs would sit still to be hit by this weapon.

Further, remind him that the deflector discharge isn't millions of times more powerful than a photorp (or whatever other nonsense). It might be equal to a ship's photorp payload if what LaForge said in "BOBW" is accurate.

With each torpedo rating, at best, no more than a couple of megatons, that ain't gonna do jack to an ISD. It might hurt Slave One or Millenium Falcon but it probably wouldn't destroy them, either!

Federation starships can have far more than 6 phaser banks. Actually,
banks are no longer the operative words. 24th century phaser systems
are in bands that can track a target or multiple targets through firing
arcs around the vessel at any possible angle. Torpedoes have tracking
and homing mechanisms never seen from Imperial weaponry.

Simply compare protorps going down the DS 1's exhaust port or Slave One's missiles in AOTC to the slow turns of a photorp in "Message in a Bottle" if he wants to talk tracking abilities.

Punishment? Have you seen Nemesis? Or Insurrection? Or DS9?
Voyager? (Gack!) Fed ships are not exactly weak.

They're not compared to what we have today, to Kirk's time or Archer's time. IOW, in the context of Trek, they're pretty tough.

In a broader context, namely one that includes Star Wars, "tough" or "weak" take on entirely different meanings.

HAHAHAHAHA! You're pulling out a novelization? That's a writer's
embellishment of the events. Good lord, man! Stick to what's on the
screen. That's the only thing that counts.

Tell him the shields of Executor were ALREADY DOWN when the A-Wing nailed that dome. The bombardment from the Mon Cal warships, NOT the A-Wing collision, was the cause of the shield loss.

To corroborate this, point out the small asteroid collisions with ISDs in TESB, which harmlessly vaporized against at least one ship's ventral shields. When he points out the big asteroid/bridge tower whacker (which I'm sure he will), explain that, to hit the tower with the same force, a 350 GIGATON laser would be required. Also point out that we saw no shield FX in that scene, so the ship's shields were down at that point, perhaps from previous collisions (which went on for days...ask him to compare that to episodes in which Trek ships refuse to even enter asteroid fields), ion cannon damage at Hoth, or whatever--doesn't really matter so long as you demonstrate the tower damage is a matter of hull "strength," NOT shield strength.

> Regardless, we have detailed technical schematics from
> the first film for Star Destroyers, and the globes are
> clearly labeled as SENSOR globes, not shield globes.

Where are these schematics? And when then is Lucasarts, George Lucas'
own company, continuing with the idea that these are shield globes?
BECAUSE THEY ARE!!!

Neat circular logic on his part They are because they just are!

Tell him videogames are the lowest form of the official materials (or close thereto). ICS books are higher up, more reliable sources.

Higher sources say they're sensor domes; therefore, what the videogame says is bullshit.

You're trying to create a series of coincidences, when the simple
explanation is the correct one. The shield generator globe is destroyer,
which takes down the shields, allowing an out-of-control Rebel ship to
fly into the bridge.

Ask him, then, why Ackbar even bothered to order the focused bombardment on the SSD if a couple of fighters could do the job?

And ask him to reexamine the sequence of events:

1--Ackbar orders every Rebel ship to hit the SSD
2--we see fighters blast a dome
3--Imperial officers report that the shields are down
4--A-Wing crashes into bridge

He might have a case if we ignored the rest of Wars canon and 1 didn't even happen. But it did. There need be no chain of coincidences...the officers simply took a few seconds to actually say, "Our shields in X area are down." Remind him that the crews of those ships were kinda busy.

> Again, Imp ships don't use "lasers," so yes, a swarm
> of TIEs would be a perfect distraction while Imp Star
> Destroyers annhilated the Feds ship-to-ship.
>

Oh come on. Tie fighter lasers are weak. However, hundreds of them
can add up.

Tell him it doesn't matter what kind of weapons they use (IOW, don't go this "they're not lasers" route; it just complicates things unnecessarily, and it's giving credence to that "lasers can't hurt Trek shields" junk). The power of those weapons is what matters.

To that end, point out the power of fighter weapons based on AOTC. Tell him to compare Slave One's asteroid shots to what the NX-01 does in "Singularity," THEN come back and say "fighter weapons are weak." They're not.

Heavy armor? Transporters can beam people inside a Borg cube and
thousands of feet below the surface of a planet.

Neither of which is heavy armor. Point out the latticework-like patterns of a cube's outer hull. Remind him the Borg rely on powerful shields, not armor (except the tactical cube), to protect their ships.

You think a little sheet
of metal is going to stop them?

Tell him that's a straw man. You didn't say little sheet of metal; you said HEAVY ARMOR.

I would abandon this "transporters won't beam through Imperial hulls" stuff, though...again, I think that distracts from the real issue at hand, which is that Imperial shields must be dropped before transporters are useful to the Federation. THAT'S the tough part for Star Trek.

You might also ask him to desist with the vaguerisms, which Mike would call the "no math mentality"; e.g., "weak," "little sheet," "powerful," etc. We need NUMBERS!

Additionally, there are windows all
over star destroyers. If the metal's a problem (which I seriously doubt),
beam through those. The only way the Empire is going to counteract a
transporter is with shields.

Perhaps, but that's the crux of all this...their shields *won't* be threatened by even a hundred Federation starships.

With that logic, we have no evidence that the Star Wars galaxy is all
that large.

Tell him a spiral galaxy (AOTC Jedi library) can only be so small.

Judging by the "speeds" attained during the asteroid chase,
he wasn't going all that fast. Maybe he could pick it up a bit in open
space, but the simple fact is that scientific reality doesn't hold in
the Star Wars universe at all anyway.

And it does in Star Trek? Tell him this is a non-issue; phasers, warp drive, hyperdrive, Klingons mating with humans, etc., etc., etc. are ALL impossible. Besides, it's a red herring..."reality" is NOT the subject of this debate.

Not that it does in Trek. Um...why are we having this conversation
again? There's the rub, isn't it? We're comparing apples and shrimp
here. Oh well, why worry about logic?

Because it's the only way we can compare these "apples and shrimp" in an intelligent manner.

You're reaching again. Sensors in the Star Wars universe plainly suck.
The star destroyer couldn't even detect a large ship attached to ITS
OWN HULL!

Remind him Solo had made extensive modifications to the Falcon to make her stealthy. Also tell him it's a simple blind spot in the ISD's sensors, not that the sensors in general just "suck."

What does it matter, anyway? We're not talking about sensors "sucking"...we're talking about hyperdrive speeds. Another red herring on your brother's part. But you might ask him how even a ship with the worst sensors in Wars could *possibly* miss a big Galaxy-class starship when it could score repeated hits on a 30 meter wide flying saucer like the Falcon.

Tri-cobalt devices were using to obliterate the massive Caretaker array
in one blast.

Tell him more than one was used, in fact, and that "massive" array suffered lots of secondary explosions.

To this end, ask him what he thought blew up the DS1...Luke's torpedoes alone, or the DS's own reactor going critical?

It's the same deal with the Caretaker Array.

As for tactics, the possibilities have always been
there; however, we must make allowances for the limitations of television.
Viewers don't want to watch a warp attack on a stationary target
because there would be nothing to see other than the explosion.

While that is true in a sense, it's irrelevant. We don't step in and out of a show to comment on its dramatics or realness; we take what we see, and that's that. For all intents and purposes IT is reality; we're just disembodied observers.

You had to bring up the Death Star, eh? Okay, assuming we're talking
about the Episode IV Death Star, which was obviously unshielded,

Ask him to substantiate this, and to explain how the DS survived the Alderaan explosion, then. Whereever he goes on the latter count, he's in neck-deep

Also ask him why, if it was unshielded, the Rebels didn't just send a few capships to dispatch it? Yep, the "electromagnetic field" surrounding the DS is a shield...have him refer to the dialogue of Rebel fighters passing through it, and the Imperials' observations that the snub fighters were able to get through the shield, etc.

the
first trick would be dealing with the big gun. This doesn't actually seem
like much a trick, though. It's not going to be able to hit fast
moving starships,

Like a GCS is usually zipping along real fast?

Every time I've seen one really let loose, it was almost at a standstill. The DS can hit Rebel ships, so yeah, it'll be probably able to hit a GCS.

But again, that's a moot point. The DS doesn't have to USE its superlaser to dispatch enemy fleets!

so the job would be blanketing that area with torpedoes to
wipe out the various emitters required to form the large beam. Better
yet, beam a bunch of torpedoes and tri-cobalts onto the big gun and
obliterate it. I doubt the Feds would even bother with that, though.
They'd probably just hack in and order the whole thing to shut down.

An alien computer system that's based in technology entirely different than anything the Federation has encountered (which, even in the case of Borg and other exotic aliens, is VERY similar to Federation tech, all based in the same principles)?

I don't think so. "Hacking" also requires that you be ALIVE to pull this off. Thousands of turbolasers shooting at you might make this...difficult.

Running the trench is possible, though. Get a well-shielded runabout with
a few guided micro-torpedoes, or, once again, if you know where the
port is, beam the explosives into it. BOOM!

It's ray-shielded. You can't beam stuff through it.

And we've never seen near enough guidance on the part of torpedoes for this to work. Refer him to Mike's page about the protorp and its 72,000 gee turn.

[Darth Servo]

You truly have been brainwashed by Lucas and his minions, haven't you?
Rarely have I witnessed such a display of reaching beyond the available
evidence toward entirely insupportable conclusions.

Nice name calling. This means absolutely nothing about the debate itself. Just return the favor. After all, he's regurgitated practically every refuted brain dead trekkie myth and fallacy ever conceived.

OOOOOOOH. TURBO-LASERS! Yeah, and my bathroom cleaner has super suds.

The name of a device tells us nothing about its true function or power level.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Ess ... ing-2.html

About half way down the page.

Big deal. The lasers I refered to in TNG met all of the physical properties that you mentioned.

Precisely WHERE in TNG did a "laser" even come close to looking like a SW TL bolt? Tell him to put his money where his mouth is by providing an example.

As for the power issue, Federation phasers have varying power levels and are perfectly capable of taking out a sizable asteroid when necessary.

Everytime we see an asteroid destroyed in Trek, its FRAGMENTED, not vaporised (like in TESB). See the Asteroid Destruction Calculator. for how much greater vape energy is that fragmentation energy.

If it's too big for phasers, we've got compression phasers, photon torpedoes, quantum torpedoes, tri-cobalt devices, and a deflector dish that can be reconfigured to do pretty much anything from altering the gravitational constant of the universe to destabilizing matter.

No energy figures given. he just recites a bunch of Trek weapon names and acts like they can take out anything in the universe without actually analyzing how much punch the things actually pack.

Side note: the deflector dish can NOT "alter the gravitational constant of the universe". Q stated that as a solution to the plot complication in "Deja Q" and Geordi specifically stated that they could NOT do it. As for "destabilizing matter" exactly WHEN did this happen? The deflector dish can do some fancy things, but if this guy is going to extrapolate those abilities to infinity, make things up out of thin air or out right LIE, then you should demand that he back it up with evidence.

Federation starships can have far more than 6 phaser banks. Actually, banks are no longer the operative words. 24th century phaser systems are in bands that can track a target or multiple targets

Tell him to NAME an example of when the E-D fired at multiple targets simultaneously.

through firing arcs around the vessel at any possible angle.

"Peak Performance" proves this claim wrong. See the second entry.

Torpedoes have tracking and homing mechanisms never seen from Imperial weaponry.

As usual, tell him to back this up.
Here's the REAL scoop on Fed torps and SW torps.

Punishment? Have you seen Nemesis?

Not personally, but THIS should deflate his overly optimistic apprasal of the film.

Or Insurrection?

Does he mean where a CHEMICAL explosion did far more damage than the E-E's top of the line torps?

Or DS9? Voyager? (Gack!) Fed ships are not exactly weak.

He ASSUMES that because those ships can take several hits from Fed level weapons that they can take several hits from other sci-fi series weapons, even though he has done NOTHING to show that Fed weapons are as powwerful as SW weapons.

HAHAHAHAHA! You're pulling out a novelization? That's a writer's embellishment of the events.

Which is STILL canon according to Lucas and company.

Good lord, man! Stick to what's on the screen. That's the only thing that counts.

Either an out-right lie or ignorance. Take your pick.

Where are these schematics? And when then is Lucasarts, George Lucas' own company, continuing with the idea that these are shield globes?

Some official information says "shield generators. Some says sensor equipment.

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/towers.htm ... te]BECAUSE THEY ARE!!![/quote]Nice circular logic there.

You're trying to create a series of coincidences, when the simple explanation is the correct one.

Pot calling the kettle black.

The shield generator globe is destroyer, which takes down the shields, allowing an out-of-control Rebel ship to fly into the bridge.

Since SW shields are invisible, he has NO evidence that the destruction of the globe actually CAUSED shield failure. All he has is that a bridge officer reported shield failure in the next scene. We don't know the exact momoent the shields went down. See False Cause fallacy

Oh come on. Tie fighter lasers are weak.

No evidence.

However, hundreds of them can add up.

yes they can which is just another nail in the Federation's coffin since the empire has MILLIONS, perhaps billions of TIEs.

Heavy armor? Transporters can beam people inside a Borg cube and thousands of feet below the surface of a planet.

Borg cubes have no armor as anyone with eyes can verify. And how does the ability to transprot through rock mean they can transport through dense armor? Doesn't this guy know the difference between them? Here's more info on transporters for your brother.

You think a little sheet of metal is going to stop them?

He thinks heavy armor is "a little sheet of metal"? ROTFLMAO. Tell him to brush up on real life military ships.

Additionally, there are windows all over star destroyers.

All over SDs? There are a few on the bridge and bridge tower. The main bulk of the ship has none that I can see. Perhaps the turrets have them.

If the metal's a problem (which I seriously doubt), beam through those.

You need more than just a hole in the metal to get through since the mere PRESENCE of certain elements mess up a transporter. Besides, the Imperials would also be using jamming equipment as well as shields that would cread havoc with transporter beams. Furthermore, ask him to explain how well transporters work around neutronium (which is a component of SW hulls). BTW, him saying he personally doubts a claim is NOT an argument.

The only way the Empire is going to counteract a transporter is with shields.

See above.

With that logic, we have no evidence that the Star Wars galaxy is all that large. Judging by the "speeds" attained during the asteroid chase, he wasn't going all that fast. Maybe he could pick it up a bit in open space, but the simple fact is that scientific reality doesn't hold in the Star Wars universe at all anyway.

Trying to mix and match Faster than light propulaion with slower than light propulaion? Does this guy even know how to be consistant?

Not that it does in Trek. Um...why are we having this conversation again? There's the rub, isn't it? We're comparing apples and shrimp here. Oh well, why worry about logic?

So he admits he doesn't care about logic? Well, that explains most of his "arguments"

You're reaching again. Sensors in the Star Wars universe plainly suck. The star destroyer couldn't even detect a large ship attached to ITS OWN HULL!

A) Tell him to prove that the Star Destroyer was actually scanning its hull instead of out in open space which is where they THOUGHT the Falcon was going to be.

B) Since when is the miniscule Falcon considered a "large ship"?

C) If SW scanners suck, Fed Scanners are far worse. Federation scanners can't detect a ship sitting over a planet's North Pole. Time for another trip to the database.

Oh come on. When, in all of ST canon, has a Fed ship going warp speed engaged a target NOT going warp speed? Explain to me how, if you were going to speed of sound, you'd be able to accurately fire on a moving car on the ground.

This is why we have really good computers.

Notice how he totally FAILS to answer your challenge to provide an example of warp-nonwarp combat. This is where you say, "concession accepted". Even with our "really good computers" of today, our aircraft still move SLOWLY to attack ground targets. Those "really good computers" are used on relatively stationary artillery peices and guided missles, not dogfighting.

Tri-cobalt devices were using to obliterate the massive Caretaker array in one blast.

How much shielding did the array have? How big was the tri-cobalt device? Was it a starship weapon? How much was the blast assisted by the array's own power systems (a critical factor considering the powder-keg nature of Trek warp cores. )?

As for tactics, the possibilities have always been there; however, we must make allowances for the limitations of television.

Not an option with suspension of disbelief. Notice how earlier he tried to throw out the ROJT novelization based on "writer's embellishment" insisting you go only with "what is on screen" and yet here he insists on just the opposite for Star Trek. Tell him he can't have his cake and eat it too.

You had to bring up the Death Star, eh? Okay, assuming we're talking about the Episode IV Death Star, which was obviously unshielded,

Either more ignorance or lies.

ANH brefing, General Dodanna: "The battle station is heavily shielded and carries a firepower greater than half the star fleet.

The DS shields held off the degris from the Alderaan explosion without even a scratch to the DS itself.

He thinks that because the rebel fighters were able to get close to the DS, that means it had no shields? They were fighting UNDER the primary sheilds

Rebel Leader: We're passing through the magnetic field.

TPM proved that SLOW MOVING objects can pass through a particle shield with some amount of effort, while fast moving ones could not.

the first trick would be dealing with the big gun. This doesn't actually seem like much a trick, though. It's not going to be able to hit fast moving starships, so the job would be blanketing that area with torpedoes to wipe out the various emitters required to form the large beam.

What makes him think that all the surface Turbolaser turrets are just going to SIT THERE doing nothing while he tries all his fancy technobabble tricks on it?

Better yet, beam a bunch of torpedoes and tri-cobalts onto the big gun and obliterate it.

This stupid battle plan relys on false assumptions about DS shields, transporters, torps and tri-cobalt devices already dealt with. Besides, how will their transporters deal with the heavy jamming fields around the DS?

I doubt the Feds would even bother with that, though. They'd probably just hack in and order the whole thing to shut down.

It would be nice if he would privide some evidence that this is even possible, ASSUMING the Feds could get on board the DS in the first place.

Running the trench is possible, though. Get a well-shielded runabout with a few guided micro-torpedoes,

Three rebel fighters out of 30 survived the battle of Yavin so this clown thinks any small sci-fi ship could do it? Oh, thats right, he's working on the assumption that Trek ships are superior to all other sci-fi ships. How silly of me.

or, once again, if you know where the port is, beam the explosives into it. BOOM!

Key word: IF. And since the shaft was ray-shileded, I fail to see how this will work.

[Master of Ossus]

OOOOOOOH. TURBO-LASERS! Yeah, and my bathroom cleaner has super suds.
Big deal. The lasers I refered to in TNG met all of the physical
properties that you mentioned. As for the power issue, Federation phasers
have varying power levels and are perfectly capable of taking out a
sizable asteroid when necessary. If it's too big for phasers, we've got
compression phasers, photon torpedoes, quantum torpedoes, tri-cobalt
devices, and a deflector dish that can be reconfigured to do pretty much
anything from altering the gravitational constant of the universe to
destabilizing matter.

This argument is laughable. See above. Moreover, the E-D was damaged by laser fire on at least two occasions, and was threatened with lasers in some other incidents.

Federation starships can have far more than 6 phaser banks. Actually,
banks are no longer the operative words. 24th century phaser systems
are in bands that can track a target or multiple targets through firing
arcs around the vessel at any possible angle. Torpedoes have tracking
and homing mechanisms never seen from Imperial weaponry.

Mmmm... I guess that the torpedo that Jango Fett's civilian ship fired at Obi-Wan was unique to Jango Fett, and that the Empire has no access to such technology.

Punishment? Have you seen Nemesis? Or Insurrection? Or DS9?
Voyager? (Gack!) Fed ships are not exactly weak.

The damage sustained by the E-E in Nemesis was LAUGHABLE compared to the damage sustained by the starships at Endor. In fact, Jango Fett's seismic charges had enough firepower to do that much damage to the E-E dozens of times over. An X-Wing can easily match the Scimitar for firepower, if we first remove the super-weapon for the sake of argument. Fed ships are weak, when compared with Imperial ships. See my calculations on that issue on this very website. I have quoted the relevant section here, in which I calculate the amount of energy involved in the impact seen in the movie:

We don't know how much the E-E masses, nor what its actual volume is, but we can get a reasonable idea. The length of the ship is about 680 meters. Its beam is 240 meters, and its height is 87 meters1. For these calculations, it will be assumed that the ship is a perfect, rectangular box. It clearly is not, and its actual volume is likely somewhere between one half, and one quarter of the volume here calculated. Now, that gives the E-E a volume of 14,198,400 cubic meters. Assuming that the ship's density is that of iron, the ship will thus mass a total of 1.07E11 kilograms (This could, theoretically, be low. It's possible that the ship would be more dense than iron, but it would have to be far more dense in order to raise the total mass of the actual ship beyond the one here calculated. Remember that the ship is filled with empty space, including a long shaft shown in this very movie, with lots of lightweight plastic and ceramic-looking parts.). The collision speed was 30 meters/second [as determined by timing the Quicktime trailer for the movie against known reference points on the E-E and Scimitar]. We can easily plug these numbers in to a KE calculator, and we find that the ship did ½(1.07E11*30²) = 4.81E13 joules to the Scimitar. Now, this is still being very generous. Remember that the E-E took substantial damage from the collision- indicating that it also absorbed a considerable amount of the impact energy itself. It also disregards the mass lightening effect of ST ships, which would lower this even further. Thus, this should be treated as a fairly high-end estimate of the amount of energy involved in the collision.

In any case, the shields of the Scimitar were lowered from seventy percent to zero, and the E-E continued on as if nothing had happened. Let us, however, assume for the moment that the Scimitar did manage to stop the E-E using just its shields. This would mean that the Scimitar has shielding equal to 4.81E13 joules, or the equivalent of less than 15 kilotons [well within the starfighter range for firepower, if compared to SW, ref. RotJ Novelization]. It further means that all of the weapons fire that struck the Scimitar during the battle was the equivalent of just 5 kilotons! Most of the E-E's weaponry missed its target. According to Gil Hamilton's count2, at least eight torpedoes and three quantum torpedoes hit the Scimitar, as well as numerous phaser and disruptor shots. If we assume that only photon torpedoes hit the Scimitar, and that the quantum torpedoes and phasers and disruptors did no damage, we find that the yield of a photon torpedo is merely .625 kilotons. This means that an X-Wing can match a photon torpedo for firepower with just eleven shots!3 That calculation, incidentally, gives every possible advantage to Star Trek. It involves a lower limit for X-Wing firepower, and the enormously generous calculations above for both the collision, and for calculating the torpedo firepower.

HAHAHAHAHA! You're pulling out a novelization? That's a writer's
embellishment of the events. Good lord, man! Stick to what's on the
screen. That's the only thing that counts.

Actually, no. SW's policy clearly indicates that the novelizations are part of the canon.

Where are these schematics? And when then is Lucasarts, George Lucas'
own company, continuing with the idea that these are shield globes?
BECAUSE THEY ARE!!!

Wrong. Read Doctor Saxton's excellent website on the matter, which can be found at: http://www.theforce.net/swtc/towers.html#globes

Incidentally, even the videogames agree that the globes are not related to the shielding of a starship as of the Battle of Endor. The "Historical Missions" from the X-Wing game clearly demonstrate during the briefing that the ISD Devastator was the last ISD destroyed by Rebel starfighters, and that following the attack the Imperials moved the shield generators to a safer, internal position where they could not be attacked in such a manner. This attack took place WELL before the Battle of Endor (in fact, before the Battle of Hoth), and as an elite unit the Executor would have received this upgrade fairly early, if in fact it did not have such systems already.

You're trying to create a series of coincidences, when the simple
explanation is the correct one. The shield generator globe is destroyer,
which takes down the shields, allowing an out-of-control Rebel ship to
fly into the bridge.

I hardly see this as a series of coincidences. It makes perfect sense, using the same number of terms as the other theory. Thus, it has equal weight, except that the sensor globe theory has additional weight from additional sources.

Oh come on. Tie fighter lasers are weak. However, hundreds of them
can add up.

AotC ICS disagrees. TIE fighter cannons are equivalent to kiloton-range weapons. This effectively makes them more powerful than Federation photon torpedoes.

Heavy armor? Transporters can beam people inside a Borg cube and
thousands of feet below the surface of a planet. You think a little sheet
of metal is going to stop them? Additionally, there are windows all
over star destroyers. If the metal's a problem (which I seriously doubt),
beam through those. The only way the Empire is going to counteract a
transporter is with shields.

Borg cubes are NOT heavily armored. Moreover, they have never transported anyone "thousands of feet" below the surface of a planet. They've been stopped by everything from naturally occuring ore in the hills around an area, to a few METERS of rock in places. For a more comperehensive compendium of transporter failures, please see Mike's excellent "Database" section. http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/index.html

With that logic, we have no evidence that the Star Wars galaxy is all
that large. Judging by the "speeds" attained during the asteroid chase,
he wasn't going all that fast. Maybe he could pick it up a bit in open
space, but the simple fact is that scientific reality doesn't hold in
the Star Wars universe at all anyway.

Erm... what? Starships in SW have accelerated from the ground to orbit in SECONDS (ref. TPM). SW ships can motor. They're by far faster than UFP starships, except at warp speed. Moreover, the Endor control bunker indicated that even Imperial capital warships had a LATERAL ACCELERATION in the hundreds of meters range.

Not that it does in Trek. Um...why are we having this conversation
again? There's the rub, isn't it? We're comparing apples and shrimp
here. Oh well, why worry about logic?

You must be kidding. Logic gives us a basis of comparison, moron.

You're reaching again. Sensors in the Star Wars universe plainly suck.
The star destroyer couldn't even detect a large ship attached to ITS
OWN HULL!

Klingon birds of prey have been unable to detect HOLES in their hull, through which ATMOSPHERE WAS LEAKING for hours on end. I hardly see how the Falcon, with a mass of less than one millionth of the ISD, can be called "large."

This is why we have really good computers.

UFP computers took HOURS to scan their database for people taking showers with their clothes on. GOOGLE could have done this in seconds. Moreover, this has NEVER been observed, even against warp-stationary targets like DS9 during EVERY attack on the station. If such a tactic were possible, it should have been used to attack the station and to avoid casualties. Note that the station is a large target, and almost completely stationary.

Tri-cobalt devices were using to obliterate the massive Caretaker array
in one blast. As for tactics, the possibilities have always been
there; however, we must make allowances for the limitations of television.
Viewers don't want to watch a warp attack on a stationary target
because there would be nothing to see other than the explosion.

In other words, the Cardassians and Klingons were willing to sacrifice thousands of their crewmen so that the viewers could get some cool-looking shots? We operate under suspension of disbelief, here.

Incidentally, your position is also self-contradictory. You claim that allowances "must" be made for the viewers. I guess that we don't want to see whether or not an ISD could actually blow up the E-D, or vice versa, and instead want to see the UFP attacking a stationary target? Whatever.

We were strictly discussing ship-to-ship. I cannot discuss planetary
issues because I have no canon references for the defensive and
offensive systems available in that arena. I was talking about two fleets in
open space. And since we can't even agree about the relative power of
weapons we can see, I'm not even going to get into speculation about
ones that we can't.

Laughable. We have clear indications of UFP "armies" from DS9 and TNG. In TNG, a group of FIVE THOUSAND soldiers could take over an ENTIRE FRICKIN' PLANET. And an important one at that. In DS9, fifteen divisions was considered a substantial attacking force, capable of destroying even a fairly powerful defending army. Note that the Germans used more than 100 divisions during their FAILED invasion of the Soviet Union.

You had to bring up the Death Star, eh? Okay, assuming we're talking
about the Episode IV Death Star, which was obviously unshielded, the
first trick would be dealing with the big gun. This doesn't actually seem
like much a trick, though. It's not going to be able to hit fast
moving starships, so the job would be blanketing that area with torpedoes to
wipe out the various emitters required to form the large beam. Better
yet, beam a bunch of torpedoes and tri-cobalts onto the big gun and
obliterate it. I doubt the Feds would even bother with that, though.
They'd probably just hack in and order the whole thing to shut down.
Running the trench is possible, though. Get a well-shielded runabout with
a few guided micro-torpedoes, or, once again, if you know where the
port is, beam the explosives into it. BOOM!

Show that the torpedoes could possibly damage the DS. Moreover, you are playing into the Empire's hands. Remember that the DS was designed to defend against a "direct, large-scale assault." I guess that you'll defeat those defenses by launching a direct, large-scale assault. Typical Trekkie argument. Ignore logic in favor of a techno-masturbatory vision of the various technology levels and ASSUME the UFP to be more powerful than the Empire, when in fact this is not the case.

[Anarchist Bunny]

Please please please send him here, the STvsSW board has been really slow.

[Baron Scarpia]

Thanks for all the info, guys...fired away a response a little while ago. It was long...and I have to say, he will be demolished on the sensor globe thing.

As for bringing him here...maybe, but I'd have to ask to have this thread deleted...wouldn't want him seeing my having run here for help, now would I?

But I don't want it to be too serious, either--I'm more or less just having fun with him. He takes Trek far more seriously than I take Wars, so it's fun to needle him on it. Bwahahahahahaha...

I'll let ya know his response (I used some liberal cut n pasting from here, and hope that's ok with some of you...I did reword things, though, and added stuff).

[Captain tycho]

Please please please send him here, the STvsSW board has been really slow.

Yeah, really. This is the first new thread in almost a week.

[Master of Ossus]

I'll let ya know his response (I used some liberal cut n pasting from here, and hope that's ok with some of you...I did reword things, though, and added stuff).

If you cut and pasted from my statement, it's fine. I posted it so you could use it, though on the "Nemesis" calc I would prefer if you would accredit it to me.

As for his response, I look forward to seeing it.

[Baron Scarpia]

Having not seen Nemesis, I just gave him the link to the Nemesis page and let him check it out.

[seanrobertson]

The damage sustained by the E-E in Nemesis was LAUGHABLE compared to the damage sustained by the starships at Endor. In fact, Jango Fett's seismic charges had enough firepower to do that much damage to the E-E dozens of times over.

Since they are gigaton-ranged devices, I would say more than that

An X-Wing can easily match the Scimitar for firepower, if we first remove the super-weapon for the sake of argument. Fed ships are weak, when compared with Imperial ships. See my calculations on that issue on this very website. I have quoted the relevant section here, in which I calculate the amount of energy involved in the impact seen in the movie:

I agree on the comparatively weak count, though I disagree that even 100 X-Wings--well, using their laser cannons--could match the Scimitar's firepower...with photorps as gigajoule-ranged devices, too much simply does not make sense. (Indeed, since the E-E spent up her entire photorp inventory, it's probable we didn't see much of the actual shooting; consequently, we probably missed quite a few other torpedo hits, which would drive their yield down lower and lower. Phasers enter the equation too, of course, but you know that.)

Orbital bombardments that can at least wipe out a large part of a planet's humanoid life would be impossible, and we know single starships are capable of pulling this off even if we ignore "The Die Is Cast" or the more hyperbolic statements made; e.g., Harry Kim's moon-killing torpedo, which is purely exaggeration.

With GJ ranged photorps, destruction of the asteroid in "Pegasus" would have Riker's expectations of a photorp payload totalling in the few tens of megatons off by no less than three to four orders of magnitude--and that's even if we adjust the figures to accomodate the asteroid's hollowness.

And we'd have a hard time explaining why a starship could orbit a star as a somewhat depleted E-D did at 150,000 km for hours on end.

In one of my favorite movies, "Clear and Present Danger," Harrison Ford's character has a neat exchange with the President and the Pres's advisors. The topic they were discussing concerned the President's friendship with a businessman who, it turned out, had ties to a drug cartel.

One advisor suggested that the President deny his friendship altogether, but Dr. Ryan disagreed. He said, "If they [reporters] ask you if you were friends, tell them you were good friends; and if they ask you if you were good friends, tell them you were life-long friends [with the drug cartel guy]. I would give them [reporters] nowhere to go."

In other words, I would not try to restrict Trek's capabilities to something that's readily arguable; as Michael often did, I'd probably be generous, showing that even with a 2 megaton photorp (or whatever), the Federation would still lose. Give these people no way to attack your figures (which, with all respect Mike, are going to be low based off of Nemesis) by making these figures something they would probably accept.

Whip them instead with a cold assessment of an ISD's firepower based solely on the canon which, AFAIK, DOES provide the highest figures (well over solar levels of power per the avg. Imperial starship, as I recall). Better to skip the quibbling about how Trek "can't be weaker than modern day nukes!" and all that stuff altogether.

If we assume that only photon torpedoes hit the Scimitar, and that the quantum torpedoes and phasers and disruptors did no damage, we find that the yield of a photon torpedo is merely .625 kilotons. This means that an X-Wing can match a photon torpedo for firepower with just eleven shots!

LOL. You mean one, right?

3 That calculation, incidentally, gives every possible advantage to Star Trek. It involves a lower limit for X-Wing firepower, and the enormously generous calculations above for both the collision, and for calculating the torpedo firepower.

Oh, right--I forgot about that no.

Definite lower-limit for X-Wing firepower, but basing photorp yields off of a collision--which are notorious for being far more destructive to shields than their kinetic energy would suggest--is bending the Trekkies' arms a little.

A direct study of photorps would be better to this end, and we find that it doesn't match up very well with almost everything else we see (except the report of the Husnock weapon's firepower). The primitive old NX-01 can muster a few terawatts of firepower, after all. If torpedoes only yielded a couple of terajoules, the ancient Enterprise should be able to blow the E-E out of the stars.

Nah, give the kid a fair upper-limit, like "Pegasus." When and if he researches the matter a bit, he might stumble across one of these sites in which someone raves about "General Order 24," then think SD.net a bunch of liars for singling out Nemesis. Like I said, I'd avoid that pitfall altogether...it's just a petri dish for breeding all kinds of digressive arguments.

Incidentally, even the videogames agree that the globes are not related to the shielding of a starship as of the Battle of Endor.

Rogue Squadron 2 claims they are, but then, it also says the REACTOR is a shield generator. Best to leave the bit about videogames out; just note that they're very low in the canon/official hiearchy. (RS2 is an awesome game, but it's full of all sorts of dumb technical stuff like that. Fighter shots on the ground don't even create puffs of smoke.)

Borg cubes are NOT heavily armored. Moreover, they have never transported anyone "thousands of feet" below the surface of a planet.

They did in "Legacy," but they had to drill a hole about a mile down for the transporter beams themselves. Anyway, that's beside the point.

Baron, I would not get caught up in a discussion of transporter magic; I would hold off on that until your brother uses it as his last ditch effort, as if that factor ALONE could help the Federation somehow stop the Empire from kicking their asses across the known universe.

Instead, I'd simply hold him to his "shields block transporters" statement, and focus on proving the strength of Imperial shielding.

That shielding which you cannot deplete in combat, after all, is something you cannot beam through--rendering that little more than a red herring.

Laughable. We have clear indications of UFP "armies" from DS9 and TNG. In TNG, a group of FIVE THOUSAND soldiers could take over an ENTIRE FRICKIN' PLANET. And an important one at that. In DS9, fifteen divisions was considered a substantial attacking force, capable of destroying even a fairly powerful defending army. Note that the Germans used more than 100 divisions during their FAILED invasion of the Soviet Union.

This is gold, especially with the historical context.

It might be worthwhile to head off any nitpicking with the 5,000 soldiers statement by pointing out that it was Vulcan, an important but pacifist world; however, it's equally important to note MOST Federation planets are pacifist. Risa, Betazed, even Earth to a degree (unable to stop Adm. Leyton from taking over the planet and Starfleet Command, at least so thought Leyton).

The Federation army is a bad joke. I would be less harsh on their starships' capabilities than Mike B. is (sorry O...), but I'd be just as fast to take your brother's own statements and hold him to them like a dog with a fresh bone; i.e., hold him steadfast to the "onscreen information!" junk (Dodonna briefing, and what that entails for the power of the Imp. Starfleet). Hold him to "shields block transporters."

The surest way to crush someone's argument is when you use their own premises against them. Your brother has given you many opportunities you cannot ignore, Baron. If you hold his feet to the fire, he might start changing his positions, in which case you have already "won."

As far as sending Baron's brother here goes, it sounds to me like the brother isn't familiar with online debates concerning our preferred topic. It might be a little much to lure him in then bash him for not knowing better.

Indeed, without Bro (tm) reading Curtis' site, Michael's site, and so on, how could he know? Most fans don't give a rat's ass about technical concerns...they just go with a gut feeling of who'd win in a fight. Since it's not exactly the most important thing in the world one could discuss, I might forgive that...of a newbie.

That's entirely different than some dummy coming in here trolling about turbolasers, nav deflectors, et al., for whom I'd have no sympathy.

[Master of Ossus]

Having not seen Nemesis, I just gave him the link to the Nemesis page and let him check it out.

That's fine.

Incidentally, Sean, I kind of agree with you about those numbers being "too low." I mainly used them because I wanted to see how Anderson would respond to them. I figured that, since he claimed they had done the technology well in "Nemesis," when he read that he would have to change his positions on how well they had done. The problem is that he didn't even try to refute the page, but nitpicked OTHER ASPECTS of that page to "prove" that I was wrong. When that failed him, he worked up his Escape Clause (TM) magic to dodge the calculation, and avoid showing how it was wrong. Unfortunately for him, that STILL indicates a spectacularly low collision resistance for both ships involved in the collision (ie. On the order of being seriously damaged from an Oklahoma City bomber), so I didn't really see a lot of space for DarkStar to maneuver around with.

The thing about the alleged armies in DS9, though, is one of my finishing moves. I generally reserve it for once a Trekkie has gotten desperate, in the ground combat arena, but it's pretty funny to use whenever.

[seanrobertson]

That's fine.

Incidentally, Sean, I kind of agree with you about those numbers being "too low." I mainly used them because I wanted to see how Anderson would respond to them.

I hear ya LOL.

I figured that, since he claimed they had done the technology well in "Nemesis," when he read that he would have to change his positions on how well they had done. The problem is that he didn't even try to refute the page, but nitpicked OTHER ASPECTS of that page to "prove" that I was wrong. When that failed him, he worked up his Escape Clause (TM) magic to dodge the calculation, and avoid showing how it was wrong. Unfortunately for him, that STILL indicates a spectacularly low collision resistance for both ships involved in the collision (ie. On the order of being seriously damaged from an Oklahoma City bomber), so I didn't really see a lot of space for DarkStar to maneuver around with.

There's sooooo little he can do with "Nemesis." I'm amazed anyone would treat it as laudatory...the only things that impressed me were the initial speeds at which the two ships engaged one another. I thought, "Wow! They're actually MOVING!" Thinking of Nemmy...

The thing about the alleged armies in DS9, though, is one of my finishing moves. I generally reserve it for once a Trekkie has gotten desperate, in the ground combat arena, but it's pretty funny to use whenever.

Yeah Like those "crack troops" the Remans turned out to be, getting their asses whipped by the dozen against ONE old man with a phaser!

That says a lot, since the Remans were supposedly the Romulans' way of dealing with the Jem'Hadar ground troops.

[Baron Scarpia]

Well, that was just too easy...he conceded defeat!

Cited here:

"As far as this conversation goes, your last response shows me that I am
in way over my head here. I have a confession to make. Despite owning
a TNG tech manual, I don't know a thing about Trek tech. When I need
stuff for Traks, I make it up. I got involved with this conversation as
a laugh, and I had no idea that people had even bothered to work out so
much technical data about the Star Wars universe. I always considered
it science-fantasy myself, a place where the hows of the technology
just didn't matter. That is obviously not the case. These Trek vs. Wars
debates go on all the time, and there are people who are capable of
responding to the points you made in your last e-mail. I am not one of
those people.

This leaves me with two options:
1) Do a heck of a lot of research to counter your arguments. Honestly,
I have neither the time nor the interest to do this.

2) Withdraw gracefully from the debate as I am obviously not equipped
to continue. Therefore, Mark, I must concede that you are the bigger
geek. May I suggest that you visit the Trek Tech forum at
www.trekbbs.com and try your arguments and vast knowledge against those with the
ability to provide you with a more of a run for you money.

Meanwhile, I will return to writing about my crew of incompetants and
making stuff up as I go along.

Alan

Oh yeah. You're still a poopie-head."

So, I came clean and confessed I did it for fun and went here for help.

Thanks for your input, guys. Sorry it didn't pan out into something more intensive...