Texas: Three adults and 18 children killed in deadliest school shooting in state's history

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Am I allowed to suggest that the US heavily restrict guns now, or are we waiting for more evidence that Americans just aren't responsible enough to be allowed access to firearms?

Good luck with that- guess which state in the USA has the highest number of registered weapons in 2021?

[Broomstick]

I don't post much, and I know you're a mod, but your take is bullshit.

You are certainly allowed to tell mods here their positions are bullshit.

Technically I'm a "mini-mod" over just one small bit of this forum, which bit is largely defunct.

My "take" isn't really a take, it's an admission I don't know the facts and if I made a definitive statement I'd be talking out of my ass. Although a mid-day press briefing did have the police in Uvalde admitting they made mistakes, for whatever that is worth. I still don't know the facts, and I'm still waiting another day or two to draw conclusions because these sorts of events always involve confusion and changing stories.

If you want to say my failure to take one side or another is "bullshit" you are certainly free to do so.

[Broomstick]

Am I allowed to suggest that the US heavily restrict guns now, or are we waiting for more evidence that Americans just aren't responsible enough to be allowed access to firearms?

I'm OK with both restricting guns and restricting the people who are allowed to have and use them.

Good luck with that- guess which state in the USA has the highest number of registered weapons in 2021?

Texas is definitely one of the fucked up shit show states.

[Jub]

I know we don't normally shitpost like this here, but all I can think of right now is:

[MKSheppard]

Here's the latest timeline(s). There's discrepancies of course:

Version A

11.28am: Gunman crashes truck, gets out of car with AR-15

He is seen by witnesses in a funeral home next to the school who tell 911 they see a man with a gun walking towards the school

11.31: Gunman is now in the parking lot of the school hiding in between vehicles, shooting at the building

11.32: School resource officer who arrives in a patrol car after hearing 911 call about truck crash drives past the shooter

11.33: Gunman enters the school and begins shooting into room 111/room 112. He shoots more than 100 rounds

11.35: Three police officers enter the same propped-open door as the suspect from the Uvalde PD. They were later followed by another four, making total of seven officers on scene

Three initial officers went directly to the door and got grazing wounds from him while the door was closed. They hang back

11.37: Another 16 rounds fired inside the classroom by the gunman

11.51: Police sergeant and USB agents arrive

12.03: Officers continue to arrive in the hallway. As many as 19 officers in that hallway at that time

At the same time, a girl from inside the classroom calls 911 and whispers that she is in room 112

12.10pm: The same girl calls back and advises 'there are multiple dead'

12.13pm: The same girl calls again

12.16pm: The same girl calls 911 for the fourth time in 13 minutes asking for help

12.15pm: BORTAC (SWAT) members arrive with shields

12.16pm: The same unidentified girl calls 911 and says there are ‘8-9 students alive’ in classroom 112

12.19pm: A different child from classroom 111 calls. She hangs up when another student tells her to in order to be quiet

12.21pm: Gunman fires again

12.26pm: One of the girls who previously called 911 calls back again. She says the shooter has just ‘shot at the door’

12.43pm: The girl on that girl is still on the line. She says “please send the police now”

12.50pm: Police finally breach the door using keys from the janitor and kill gunman

12.51pm Officers start moving children out of the room

Version B

11:27 AM – Exterior door where shooter entered was propped open by a teacher.
11:28 AM – Shooter’s vehicle crashes into a ditch.
11:28 AM – Teacher runs to room 132 to retrieve her phone and door remains propped open.
11:30 AM – Teacher calls 911 to report the crash and a man with a gun.
11:31 AM – The suspect reaches last row of vehicles in the school parking lot.
11:31 AM – Shooter approaches school, shooting at the classroom windows as he approaches.
11:31 AM – Patrol vehicles arrive at funeral home.
11:32 AM – Multiple shots fired at the school.
11:33 AM – Shooter enters the school, begins firing into room 111 or 112; at least 100 rounds fired.
11:35 AM – Three Uvalde PD officers enter school through same door shooter entered, quickly followed by three more Uvalde PD and one sheriff’s deputy.
11:36 AM – Three Uvalde PD officers approach the classroom door and two are shot; they fall back.
11:37 AM – Shooter fires 16 rounds.
11:51 AM – Police sergeant arrived.
12:03 PM – Additional officers arrive; “There were as many as 19 officers at that time in that hallway.”
12:03 PM – 911 call from room 112 lasting 1 minute, 23 seconds.
12:10 PM – 911 call from room 112, advised multiple are dead.
12:13 PM – 911 call from room 112.
12:16 PM – 911 call from room 111, caller reporting there are eight to nine students alive.
12:15 PM – Members of BORTAC arrived, along with shields.
12:19 PM – 911 call from room 111, caller hung up when another student told them to.
12:21 PM – Shooter fired again, “It was believed to be at the door.”
12:21 PM – 911 call from room 111.
12:21 PM – Law enforcement moved down the hallway.
12:26 PM – 911 call from student lasting 26 seconds.
12:26 PM – 911 call from the same student, reports that the killer shot the door. Student was told to stay on the line and to be very quiet.
12:46 PM – 911 caller says she can hear police next door.
12:47 PM – Asked 911 to “please send the police now.”
12:50 PM – Officers breached the locked classroom door using keys provided by the janitor.

[MKSheppard]

Good luck with that- guess which state in the USA has the highest number of registered weapons in 2021?

I'd like to point out that "registered" refers to National Firearms Act Weapons; which are machine guns, suppressors, short barrelled rifles, etc.

If you want to know the true number of weapons in a state; you need to use NICS (National instant check systeM) numbers as a proxy:

https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/nic ... e.pdf/view

In 2021:

California: 1.47 million firearms sold/transferred (CA is a 100% UBC state)
Texas: 1.9 million firearms sold/transferred (TX only does it for gun dealers/FFLs)
Kentucky: 3.8 million firearms sold/transferred
Illinois: 8.4 million firearms sold/transferred.

etc.

[Lost Soal]

Am I allowed to suggest that the US heavily restrict guns now, or are we waiting for more evidence that Americans just aren't responsible enough to be allowed access to firearms?

Haven't you been paying attention, the problem is Mental Health; wokeness; CRT; lack of faith; the teacher who left the door propped open (allegedly) too many exits; anything but guns. Seriously, all these have been thrown out to try and protect gun ownership.

[Crazedwraith]

Just to hammer the point home the Onion's homepage, is covered in the variations of their "‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens" story they've posted over the years.

[Tribble]

Am I allowed to suggest that the US heavily restrict guns now, or are we waiting for more evidence that Americans just aren't responsible enough to be allowed access to firearms?

Haven't you been paying attention, the problem is Mental Health; wokeness; CRT; lack of faith; the teacher who left the door propped open (allegedly) too many exits; anything but guns. Seriously, all these have been thrown out to try and protect gun ownership.

Hell, lack of guns / body armour in schools is used to protect gun ownership - every teacher should be heavily armed and the kids heavily armoured, just in case!

[Ralin]

the teacher who left the door propped open (allegedly) too many exits;

So, every single school I've ever worked with has been surrounded by a wall or fence with gated entrances manned by a security guard. It's standard design here, far as I know. So the concept of schools only having one or two controlled entry points is normal to me. And a direct result of that set up is that at predetermined times there's a huge crowd of students milling about in front of and/or passing through those gates, so uh...doesn't really seem like an improvement from the perspective of preventing spree shooters even if they are an impediment to just walking in and going room to room.

[Ralin]

Hell, lack of guns / body armour in schools is used to protect gun ownership - every teacher should be heavily armed and the kids heavily armoured, just in case!

Why wouldn't the kids be armed too? Shouldn't they be expected to handle this sort of thing themselves?

[Zaune]

... the teacher who left the door propped open (allegedly); too many exits; ...

That specific bit of victim-blaming especially boils my piss for some reason, because supposedly Ted Cruz was claiming this wouldn't have happened if there was only one way into the school and I just... For crying out loud, do they think some guy who's decided he wants to murder a bunch of schoolkids because he hates his life and he wants as many people as possible to be as miserable as he is would just give up and go home because he couldn't sneak in through a side door without breaking and entering? Or that someone who bought an AR-15, an absurd amount of ammunition for it and a ballistic vest doesn't have the disposable income for a crowbar and some bolt cutters?

[bilateralrope]

Am I allowed to suggest that the US heavily restrict guns now, or are we waiting for more evidence that Americans just aren't responsible enough to be allowed access to firearms?

Haven't you been paying attention, the problem is Mental Health; wokeness; CRT; lack of faith; the teacher who left the door propped open (allegedly) too many exits; anything but guns. Seriously, all these have been thrown out to try and protect gun ownership.

Hell, lack of guns / body armour in schools is used to protect gun ownership - every teacher should be heavily armed and the kids heavily armoured, just in case!

Who do they think will pay for the guns and armor ?

[Aether]

I know we don't normally shitpost like this here, but all I can think of right now is:

I had to stop watching yesterday, because if you listen to the updates given it is so utterly painful to see they had no idea what they were doing. You can hear the legitimate anger from the questions taken at these news briefs. I hope there is an investigation at a federal level.

[Tribble]

Haven't you been paying attention, the problem is Mental Health; wokeness; CRT; lack of faith; the teacher who left the door propped open (allegedly) too many exits; anything but guns. Seriously, all these have been thrown out to try and protect gun ownership.

Hell, lack of guns / body armour in schools is used to protect gun ownership - every teacher should be heavily armed and the kids heavily armoured, just in case!

Who do they think will pay for the guns and armor ?

Well with all the book burnings going on I imagine there may be more room in the budget for them.

Is there any indication that the race / ethnicity of the students may have played a role in the police response?

Bad enough if the police was just incompetent. And obviously no child regardless of race deserves something like that happening to them.

I sincerely hope though that this wasn’t a school full of minorities and because of it the police were less responsive than they could have been…

[LadyTevar]

I sincerely hope though that this wasn’t a school full of minorities and because of it the police were less responsive than they could have been…

It's a town of largely Mexican-Americans.

[AniThyng]

I sincerely hope though that this wasn’t a school full of minorities and because of it the police were less responsive than they could have been…

It's a town of largely Mexican-Americans.

How about the responding officers..?

[Broomstick]

The police wouldn't have to restraint parents to rush head on into the school if the police themselves were actually doing that themselves.

I completely understand why the parents felt a desire to rush in to the school themselves, but the cold hard truth is that if they HAD done that, with the gunman still alive, still armed, and with a lot of ammo, all that would have happened is that those parents would have died, too. Because there was no way a bunch of untrained, unarmed people were going to successfully rush the Bad Guy with a Gun by forcing their way through a doorway. If they could have even gotten the door open. Given the weapon involved, he might have been able to shoot them through the wall or door if they were on the other side.

Regardless of anything else that was or wasn't going on, or should or shouldn't have been going on, those parents rushing the gunman while unarmed themselves would have been suicide. That's the cold logic of the situation.

[Broomstick]

I sincerely hope though that this wasn’t a school full of minorities and because of it the police were less responsive than they could have been…

It's a town of largely Mexican-Americans.

How about the responding officers..?

I can't say for sure, but in the end it was the arrival of the Border Patrol that put an end to the situation, which is not the group you'd expect to ride to the rescue of Hispanic people but in this case that's what happened, albeit too late to save the kids that were in the classroom with the murderer.

I'm inclined to think it was less a matter of racial or ethnic prejudice than a matter of incompetence or bad decision making.

[RogueIce]

Is there any indication that the race / ethnicity of the students may have played a role in the police response?

Bad enough if the police was just incompetent. And obviously no child regardless of race deserves something like that happening to them.

I sincerely hope though that this wasn’t a school full of minorities and because of it the police were less responsive than they could have been…

How about the responding officers..?

From the current reports, the incident commander who made the decision not to immediately enter was the ISD Police Chief, who is himself of Hispanic heritage and was "born and raised" in the town on top of that.

So I can't imagine, whatever his decision-making process was, that it was motivated by lack of care for the kids due to their heritage.

[Ralin]

For crying out loud, do they think some guy who's decided he wants to murder a bunch of schoolkids because he hates his life and he wants as many people as possible to be as miserable as he is would just give up and go home because he couldn't sneak in through a side door without breaking and entering? Or that someone who bought an AR-15, an absurd amount of ammunition for it and a ballistic vest doesn't have the disposable income for a crowbar and some bolt cutters?

No actually that's pretty plausible. A locked sorority door is what short-circuited the incel patron saint Elliot Rodger's shooting spree, after all. Something that simple can absolutely reduce the death toll from this sort of thing, if not prevent it.

[GrosseAdmiralFox]

Some of the shit that came out of this is... sickening. Some of the more right-wing sites have been setting up disingenuous BS right now, forgetting that things can be basically wiped out of the history books or simply buried.

Hell, the Wikipedia chart for school shootings in the US is... surprisingly empty.

[Zaune]

No actually that's pretty plausible. A locked sorority door is what short-circuited the incel patron saint Elliot Rodger's shooting spree, after all. Something that simple can absolutely reduce the death toll from this sort of thing, if not prevent it.

Yeah, okay, that's honestly pretty fair. But I'm pretty sure the reason the US seemingly has mass-shootings every other week is not a lack of basic security precautions like making sure the emergency exits only open from the inside and trigger an alarm if they do.

[PainRack]

There's actually some very concrete ways to mitigate the deadliness of mass shootings we can experiment.

We know that mass shootings with rifles are rare, however, they form the majority of casualties. This suggests a pareto effect we can mitigate by restricting assault rifles ownership.

Mass shootings with large magazine capacity has larger casualties than those without. Again , another target.

These aren't new btw. Clinton era assault weapons ban restricted the two and mass shootings were less deadly than current.


The only new thing is that yes, mental health IS a problem. Yes, the mentally ill are more likely to be victims than perpetuators , however, a good portion of mass shooters with casualties higher than 10 are mentally ill.

Thankfully, for mental health, removing the guns IS a solution proposed under red flag laws and proper storage/security of weapons is a mental health solution.

Given the US military own research into how service members who buy large amount of guns are more likely to inflict harm, be it suicide or homicide, waiting periods, database checks and etc are all ways we can experiment on to reduce said casualties.

Incidentally, waiting periods and licensing, either through removal or implementation has shown an impact on homicide and suicide.

[Aether]

The police wouldn't have to restraint parents to rush head on into the school if the police themselves were actually doing that themselves.

I completely understand why the parents felt a desire to rush in to the school themselves, but the cold hard truth is that if they HAD done that, with the gunman still alive, still armed, and with a lot of ammo, all that would have happened is that those parents would have died, too. Because there was no way a bunch of untrained, unarmed people were going to successfully rush the Bad Guy with a Gun by forcing their way through a doorway. If they could have even gotten the door open. Given the weapon involved, he might have been able to shoot them through the wall or door if they were on the other side.

Regardless of anything else that was or wasn't going on, or should or shouldn't have been going on, those parents rushing the gunman while unarmed themselves would have been suicide. That's the cold logic of the situation.

You must play way too much Call of Duty. "The gunman may have shot through the wall." Did he have an aimbot? L33t hax where he could see their outline through the wall? He didn't even do that with 19 officers out in the hallway who were waiting for a fucking door key! You don't need to be trained to gang rush 1 person even if they have a gun. Do you know how guns work? Real life isn't a TV show where a single bullet immediately stops an attacker. Stop making up bullshit scenarios.

No one really knows how many people would have died or injured if a group of parents rushed in, kicked in the door, and helped as many kids as they could even when it wasn't their own. Hell, one would hope if they did rush in then that would have been the kick in the ass of the officers to go in themselves. I argue that's not even the correct question to ask. History is replete with examples where people make their choice of possible self sacrifice. Those parents were denied that choice. Due to police inaction (with their guns, numbers, and body armor), the parents were hand cuffed, pepper sprayed, and blocked to do what anyone else would have done when those who we count on chose not to. You know, *logically* the parents expected the officers to help (again with their guns, body armor, and numbers), and they didn't. That is as far as logic was needed to go in that situation.

Christ, what do you think of the people who tried to take back control of Flight 93? "Let's revolt!" No wait, let's ask Broomstick. "Cold logic of the situation is that there are armed hijackers, and it is highly unlikely that you will breach the cockpit. Even if you do, you don't know how to fly the plane. We are going to die anyway, so let's just sit here"

The Texas DPS should hire you as their PR. They clearly need a consistent story, so you can stand there in front of those parents, reporters, and the world to discuss "cold logic."