Texas: Three adults and 18 children killed in deadliest school shooting in state's history

[LadyTevar]

AETHER...

You are getting out of line.

This is your FIRST Warning.

Argue the Statement, Argue the Facts. Do not Attack the Person.

Unless you have VALID commentary to add to this discussion, you may wish to take a step back

[bilateralrope]

Gov. Abbott attributes mass shootings to mental health issues a month after cutting $211 million from mental health commission

After Uvalde, Abbott doubles down on his stance that mass shootings are an issue of mental health

UVALDE, Texas – “We as a state - we as a society - need to do a better job with mental health. Anybody who shoots somebody else has a mental health challenge. Period. We as a government need to find a way to target that mental health challenge and do something about it.”

Those are the words of Texas Gov. Greg Abbott just days after an 18-year-old high school student massacred 19 students and two teachers at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde.

Abbott has doubled down on his stance that mass shootings are an issue of mental health and not gun access following the Uvalde massacre.

However, in April, Abbott slashed nearly $211 million from the Health and Human Services Commission (HHSC), which oversees mental health services in Texas.

Abbott diverted the funds to add to his effort to send National Guard to the Texas-Mexico border, currently known as Operation Lone Star.

No other Texas agency received a more significant cut than the HHSC when Abbott slashed funding.

The massive cut comes as Texas ranks 4th in the U.S. for the prevalence of mental illness and ranks last out of all 50 states in access to mental health care, according to the 2022 State of Mental Health in America report.

The Texas Legislature has spent billions in the last decade funding DPS’ so-called border security mission, even though few metrics exist to measure its success.

Some of those operations have occurred in and around Uvalde, which is just under 100 miles from the border.

In fact, Abbott’s office directed $3.3 million to Uvalde County in February for county law enforcement agencies to help “prosecuting border-related crimes including drug and human smuggling, and related criminal trespassing and evading arrest,” the Uvalde Leader News reported.

On Friday, Abbott discussed the option of passing new laws to make sure that schools are safer. He again attributed the issue to mental health and specifically not to gun access or violence.

“You can expect a robust discussion, and my hope is laws passed, that I will sign, addressing health care in this state. There is an array of healthcare issues that we face as a state in general but there are an array of healthcare issues that relate to those who commit gun crimes in particular. Those need to be addressed,” Abbott said. “... If there’s anybody here who thinks we have perfect health care in this country or in this world - they’re wrong. If there’s anybody who thinks we can’t do more to address mental health care - they’re wrong. We can and we’re going to.”

Taken together, his words and actions paint a very clear picture. He's in favor of more mass shootings.

[Broomstick]

You must play way too much Call of Duty.

I have never played Call of Duty in my life, and have no intention of doing so. I do not enjoy realistic shooting games.

"The gunman may have shot through the wall." Did he have an aimbot? L33t hax where he could see their outline through the wall?

Are you unaware of the phenomena of "overpenetration"? Bullets can and do go through walls. I have personally known people who were injured by bullets that have gone through walls. Are you unaware of this? If so, please educate yourself about how guns actually operate in the real world.

This article describes how the gunman fired through walls/doors/barricades into other classrooms at Uvalde besides the one where he slaughtered kids, and also wounded people with those bullets he shot through walls.

He didn't even do that with 19 officers out in the hallway who were waiting for a fucking door key! You don't need to be trained to gang rush 1 person even if they have a gun.

No, but you have to be willing to die, because zerg-rushing an armed gunman is going to result in still more dead bodies on the floor before you take him down even in the most favorable circumstances, and having to go through a doorway is the opposite of "favorable" to those charging in. Look up the concept of a "choke point". A doorway people have to go through is a text-book choke point and that sort of feature means just a few (or even one) armed person can hold off/kill large numbers of people.

Even with actual body armor, getting hit by bullets fired from an AR-15 can cause significant damage, not just bruising but actual breaking ribs. That's with actual armor. Unarmed and unarmored parents? Nope, they would not have survived. How would adding another dozen or two dozen people to the death toll have helped anything?

When actual police or probably more appropriately actual military go after an armed gunman in close quarters they do so in a methodical manner with controlled emotions. Going in at random, without plan or forethought, unarmed, unarmored, driven by emotion is just going to result in more blood and bodies on the floor.

Do you know how guns work?

Yes. I have actually fired several different types of weapons. I have had had people shoot at me. I have also seen the results when a bullet from something like an AR-15 hits a human body. The word "hamburger" comes to mind. You don't need to get a really great shot with one of those to kill a person, the way they obliterate soft tissue and shatter bones (turning the resulting fragments into damaging items in their own right) bleeding out from a wound to the extremities is all too common. A solid torso shot destroys internal organs, making death inevitable even if not instant. A head shot... well, it won't leave much of a head. I'm not at all surprised Ulvade needed DNA samples to identify the dead children.

Do YOU know how guns work? Have you seen the damage bullets do? I have. The word that comes to mind is "hamburger". Lots of x-rays images on the internet of what happens to the bones (they shatter), fewer of the "soft tissue damage", I guess some of them are a bit too intense even for the average morbid troll.

Do you understand that a gun man with a lot of ammo doesn't need high-tech stuff to fire blindly into a hallway through a wall if he hears someone on the other side? Do you understand that as parents or police attempt to enter through a doorway said gunman can simply fire into that doorway over and over?

No one really knows how many people would have died or injured if a group of parents rushed in, kicked in the door, and helped as many kids as they could even when it wasn't their own.

You are correct, no one knows. But it's pretty certain, given he'd already killed a bunch of people and also fired on people approaching the classroom he was in that any attempt to zerg-rush was going to result in more dead bodies. ESPECIALLY if those people doing the rush were untrained and disorganized.

History is replete with examples where people make their choice of possible self sacrifice. Those parents were denied that choice.

History is also replete with people who made dumb-ass decisions and got themselves killed to no purpose.

Stop believing the myth that the good guys will always win. They don't.

Due to police inaction (with their guns, numbers, and body armor), the parents were hand cuffed, pepper sprayed, and blocked to do what anyone else would have done when those who we count on chose not to.

I am not agreeing with pepper-spraying parents, or hand cuffing them, but what next? We should let parents run into a burning building to save their kids, resulting in yet more casualties for the fire department to rescue or the coroner to cart away?

I understand why the parents wanted to rush in. I also understand that it would have accomplished absolutely nothing in this situation. Unarmed parents having to squeeze through a door to face a heavily armed gunman with zero inhibition to kill people would have resulted in more dead people and the gunman still alive. Unless they got real, real lucky and the gun jammed long enough (and he didn't have any other guns for backup, and it seems most of these nutcases do bring extra weapons) for them to jump him. But modern guns are very reliable.

Give up your sick fantasy of some Hollywood ending with the courageous, unarmed parents somehow taking out the gunman. It's not reality.

You know, *logically* the parents expected the officers to help (again with their guns, body armor, and numbers), and they didn't.

Agreed. The cops fucked up on that one. They've even admitted they fucked up.

About the only thing the cops did do right was get some kids out of the building during the hour plus the gunman was still alive in one of the classrooms. So, yay that, but like I said, even the Uvalde police department admits they fucked up and fucked up badly.

Christ, what do you think of the people who tried to take back control of Flight 93? "Let's revolt!" No wait, let's ask Broomstick. "Cold logic of the situation is that there are armed hijackers, and it is highly unlikely that you will breach the cockpit. Even if you do, you don't know how to fly the plane. We are going to die anyway, so let's just sit here"

Wow, are you full of shit. Flight 93 yes, everyone was going to die, but the passengers, in rushing the cockpit, knew that if they stopped the hijackers they were all also going die but prevent other deaths. For sure, if they downed the airplane in a field the airplane would not be able to crash into a building DC. Also, back then (which a snot-nosed whelp such as yourself may not be old enough to remember) cockpit doors were not fortified. They were as "sturdy" (and probably of the same material) as the door to the airplane lavatory. EASILY breached by a determined mob. In addition, the hijackers were pre-occupied with flying the airplane, which meant they were not facing the door with loaded guns, they were (presumably) at the controls with their backs to the door to the cockpit. A very different situation to a heavily armed man-boy with a loaded gun pointed at the doorway, with no other distraction to shooting whoever attempts to come through that door.

So just go fuck yourself you ignorant shithead with delusions that unarmed, unprotected parents rushing headlong into AR-15 gunfire would be able to do anything other than die, to no purpose whatsoever. Life is not a fucking Hollywood action flick, or a goddamned Hallmark movie-of-the-week. Bullets trump good intentions or parental love.

[Lord Revan]

There's also the matter that the goal in Flight 93 was simple (bare in mind that aircraft cockpits are nowhere close big enough there to be room to dodge someone trying rush you) enough that a person could do it even on instinct after suffering a lethal wound and the crew and passengers of Flight 93 knew they were dead anyway so fear of dying wouldn't come into the equation there.

With this incident the task is as not simple (there's more room for the gunman to hide/dodge in a school corridor then there would be in a aircraft cockpit) and the parents would be planning to come out of it alive so fear of dying would very much be present and with untrained civilians panic tends to be their first response to being shot, not grim determination to charge into gunfire.

[MKSheppard]

I can't say for sure, but in the end it was the arrival of the Border Patrol that put an end to the situation, which is not the group you'd expect to ride to the rescue of Hispanic people but in this case that's what happened

Uvalde TX is apparently a semi major Border Patrol base -- there are about 140 BP agents assigned to the Uvalde region -- the Border Patrol is apparently very well respected; because they're good solid, union jobs.

Out of about 140~ agents in that area; 80+ responded to the shooting -- there are two stories of interest:

Jacob Alabarado

Jacob Albarado had only just sat down for a haircut when he turned around and asked his barber to borrow a shotgun.

Albarado, a U.S. Customs and Border Protection agent and off-duty at the time, needed the firearm, he said, to rescue his wife, Trisha, a fourth-grade teacher at Robb Elementary School. His daughter, a second-grader, was also in the building, locked inside a bathroom, the New York Times reported.

He was mid-trim on Tuesday when he received a chilling text from his wife, alerting him to the mass shooting at the school in Uvalde, a city of about 15,000 near the Mexican border.

“There’s an active shooter,” she wrote in the first message, which was immediately followed by another. “Help.”

Then she added: “I love you.”

The off-duty officer quickly shifted gears, his instincts from years in law enforcement almost immediately kicking in. Both Albarado and his barber raced to the scene of the mass shooting, shotgun in tow.

Link

Sources close to this investigation tell KPRC 2 Investigates the Border Patrol agent who is credited with stopping Ramos was eating lunch at the Mill Creek Café in the town of Leakey when he heard the call go out over his radio. Sources tell KPRC 2 even though the agent was not in uniform, he didn’t hesitate to jump into his vehicle and drive 40 miles to Robb elementary. We are told the agent is a member of Border Patrol’s tactical team known as BORTAC.

[MKSheppard]

There's actually some very concrete ways to mitigate the deadliness of mass shootings we can experiment.

We know that mass shootings with rifles are rare, however, they form the majority of casualties. This suggests a pareto effect we can mitigate by restricting assault rifles ownership.

Mass shootings with large magazine capacity has larger casualties than those without. Again , another target.

No, actually, there are two things that cause massive casualties.

1.) Enclosed, confined spaces -- people have less space to run or flee. You might not know it; but the majority of casualties at Sandy Hook were AFAIK, in a few closets. Yes, the "active shooter" procedure there was to hide in closets -- which gave the shooter absurdly easy targets, to the point that you could strike multiple people with a single round.

2.) Response delayed beyond "golden hour" -- a lot of the casualties at the Pulse nightclub shooting died of blood loss and trauma because the cops waited three (!!!) hours to go in and clear the nightclub.

In closing; I'd like to remind you that the deadliest shooting so far in a school (30+ dead at Virginia Tech) had the shooter using a Glock 19 9mm (133 rounds fired) and Walther P22 .22LR (61 rounds fired) -- with factor 1 (enclosed confined spaces) in play.

Incidentally, waiting periods and licensing, either through removal or implementation has shown an impact on homicide and suicide.

Maryland statistics prove you wrong. Waiting period since 1966; and fingerprints/licensing/training for handguns since 2013.

[MKSheppard]

When actual police or probably more appropriately actual military go after an armed gunman in close quarters they do so in a methodical manner with controlled emotions. Going in at random, without plan or forethought, unarmed, unarmored, driven by emotion is just going to result in more blood and bodies on the floor.

From a firearms board:

JAG2955:
What the cops did was the equivalent of having a call about an airline hijacking in 2002 and then waiting to hear what the hijackers demands were.

NCPatrolAR:
What does any of that have to do with my comment on yet another asinine post about tactics?

JAG2955:
Because that's exactly what was taught when I attended the TXDPS School Safety Certification Instructor class. It's the same stuff they teach to DPS officers.

The biggest highlight of the class was TXDPS instructors preaching "you have to go in, you do not have to go out." The cops waiting for the negotiator/tac team/coroner/donut truck was a major sign of normalcy bias. There's no wait for backup, there's no containment, there's no "oh, I took spall from a shot through the door", better let the kids bleed out. You go in to the sound of gunfire until the shooter is dead. Solo/pair/whatever, it doesn't matter. You do, in fact flood the halls until the bad guys are dead.

They told us that they EXPECT friendly fire, they EXPECT officer deaths, and they EXPECT the possibility of teachers (especially armed) to be shot in the confusion.

The normalcy bias of those in charge, and those that got there first led to many kids bleeding out. They fucked up. They did the equivalent of waiting for an airline hijackers demands in 2002.

In any case, the shit show is getting bigger:

https://abc13.com/uvalde-police-school- ... /11913010/

Uvalde police, school district no longer cooperating with Texas probe of shooting
By JOSH MARGOLIN
Tuesday, May 31, 2022 5:57PM

The Uvalde Police Department and the Uvalde Independent School District police force are no longer cooperating with the Texas Department of Public Safety's investigation into the massacre at Robb Elementary School and the state's review of the law enforcement response, multiple law enforcement sources tell ABC News.

A spokesman for Texas DPS, which is running the state's investigations, declined to comment.

The Uvalde police chief and a spokesperson for the Uvalde Independent School District did not immediately respond to requests for comment from ABC News.

This is a developing story. Please check back for updates.

[Broomstick]

Yeah, like I said - even the police admit they fucked up big time.

[LadyTevar]

I was wondering how long before the local Police started circling the wagons.

[Zwinmar]

I have a ...low...tolerance for Police apologists. They inevitably come around to saying something along the lines of 'you weren't there, you wouldn't know." I have to walk away because a cop nowadays generally they have better equipment than we did going into an active war zone and yet we managed to restrain ourselves from shooting random people because we were 'scared.' Our expected 'good' casualty rate for doing combat in an urban environment was 70%, with our body armor at the time being flak jackets, not something that would stop more than shrapnel.

I have to walk away because I have been in a position where I had to step in front of one to stop them from shooting another, I was able to talk him down and get the rifle away from him. The apologist say that that cops 'just want to go home to their families', bullshit! they put on that uniform knowing what they are getting into, if they can't handle it then they can quit, they where not drafted, matter of fact we have special rules in place because they are supposed to put themselves in the line of fire: qualified immunity anyone?

It seems that there are too many cops now who are really nothing more than TSA bullies with Cartmann complexes and a gun. The Tacklberry fucks need to be held accountable to a higher standard than someone who doesn't put on a uniform and go out with the mentality that the citizens are the enemy.

[GrosseAdmiralFox]

The thing is, we're still getting bits and pieces of the picture, even though the picture we're seeing is pretty damn damming to local law enforcement. I mean I've seen some information that indicates that dispatch wasn't talking to those 'on the ground', meaning that this screwup is likely far bigger than first believed.

[Broomstick]

Yep, a complete clusterfuck despite increased funding, increased equipment, increased training....

We've been hearing the same chorus of "more police, more guns" since Columbine and it's not working. It's time to try something different.

[Ralin]

Yeah, like I said - even the police admit they fucked up big time.

So, about that. 'The police' may be an overly broad term to be using here, because from what I've seen while state officials like the director of the Texas Department of Public Safety have apologized and while those officials may be law enforcement, the Ulvade police themselves have not been so forthcoming and are reportedly declining to cooperate with other law enforcement agencies charged with investigating their conduct.

In short, while we should always be critical and try to base our opinions on as much information as possible, this is probably not a good time to be giving the police any sort of benefit of the doubt.

Also at least one teacher has needed to retain a lawyer to push back against being blamed for not locking the door the shooter may have used. Lovely.

[LadyTevar]

The thing is, we're still getting bits and pieces of the picture, even though the picture we're seeing is pretty damn damming to local law enforcement. I mean I've seen some information that indicates that dispatch wasn't talking to those 'on the ground', meaning that this screwup is likely far bigger than first believed.

That is what I'm wondering. We hear the cops saying "We didn't think anyone was alive in there", when there's clearly multiple 911 calls from two different children. Why did those 911 calls not get through to the cops outside?

[GrosseAdmiralFox]

Yep, a complete clusterfuck despite increased funding, increased equipment, increased training....

We've been hearing the same chorus of "more police, more guns" since Columbine and it's not working. It's time to try something different.

You also forget that the US police system is not a system at all, just a whole bunch of little fiefdoms with very little standardization.

The thing is, we're still getting bits and pieces of the picture, even though the picture we're seeing is pretty damn damming to local law enforcement. I mean I've seen some information that indicates that dispatch wasn't talking to those 'on the ground', meaning that this screwup is likely far bigger than first believed.

That is what I'm wondering. We hear the cops saying "We didn't think anyone was alive in there", when there's clearly multiple 911 calls from two different children. Why did those 911 calls not get through to the cops outside?

That is a million-dollar question that will be answered.

[Broomstick]

In short, while we should always be critical and try to base our opinions on as much information as possible, this is probably not a good time to be giving the police any sort of benefit of the doubt.

Stating that some law enforcement has admitted to fuckups is not in any way giving the police the benefit of the doubt. It's stating a fact.

And given that this WILL end up in court I'm not at all surprised by cops shutting up and lawyering up. It's the American way.

[Gandalf]

It'll be interesting to see whether or not whatever inquiry happens will look at systemic issues, or decide on some sacrificial police on which to blame it all.

[Broomstick]

Either way, the conclusion will be the problem is anything other than access to guns.

[Zaune]

Yep, a complete clusterfuck despite increased funding, increased equipment, increased training...

Increased training by who, and to what standard? Because one thing the United States lacks compared to other countries is any sort of federal-level inspectorate for law-enforcement. If anyone is systematically auditing the arrest reports, doing ride-alongs with officers or evaluating the training syllabi it's at a purely local level with no consistent minimum standards across the nation, and that's probably the second-biggest issue after the whole "any random yahoo can buy an AR-15 no questions asked" thing.

Unfortunately I don't see a good solution to that which doesn't involve ramming through some laws the Confederacy will pitch a fit about.

[Broomstick]

Well, yes, there's the problem - a minority with a powerbase in rural America that is holding the majority and those in urban areas hostage.

Contrast the response in Tulsa to the response in Uvalde.

You are correct, there is no consistency across the nation as a whole. There isn't consistency across some entire states.

It's always about everything but the guns.

Meanwhile - I'm hearing things about Uvalde that are making me think that the fuck-ups are worse than we initially though and there are some heavy-duty scapegoating and covering up underway.

[Ralin]

Meanwhile - I'm hearing things about Uvalde that are making me think that the fuck-ups are worse than we initially though and there are some heavy-duty scapegoating and covering up underway.

Haven't seen the quote, but I've heard multiple people say that one of the police's press statements emphasized all of the dead kids were killed by the shooter. Which implies that the police probably shot some kids while they were at it.

[Broomstick]

Which might give incentive beyond just "save human life" to prevent parents from rushing.

One woman who was handcuffed was threatened with legal action/jail time if she spoke to the press. Apparently a judge reassured her that would not be the case and she's now giving interviews although I haven't heard all the details about that.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

US senator pulls out firearms during gun control hearing.

A US senator pulled out several guns as he took part in a debate on gun control via video call on Thursday.
A House panel was discussing a package of gun control measures after mass shootings in Texas and New York by assailants who killed 31 people, including 19 children.

During the hearing, Republican Greg Steube brandished various pistols in an effort to argue that the bill's provision banning large-capacity magazines of more than 10 rounds amounted to stopping law-abiding citizens from purchasing guns of their choice.
When Representative Sheila Jackson Lee remarked that she hoped one of the guns Steube was holding was not loaded, Steube replied, “I’m in my house, I can do whatever I want with my guns”.
It was one of several pointed exchanges during the hearing.

President Joe Biden begs Congress to tighten American gun laws.

An emotional President Biden looked into the camera last night and uttered three words that he hopes will break the Congressional paralysis.

"Enough! Enough! Enough!"

This was the president urging Congress to tighten American gun laws. He decided to address the nation in primetime, interrupting all network TV shows, in a belated attempt to show some leadership on the issue.

The president has just returned from Uvalde in Texas where he comforted grieving families of the 19 murdered children and the two teachers. A week earlier he had been in Buffalo, New York, performing the same forlorn ritual.

America has been traumatised by a succession of mass shootings. Yet until last night the White House has been passive. The president has been the mourner-in-chief, but not the galvanizer-in-chief.

Joe Biden was acting like a mere observer of events, not a leader who believed he could change the trajectory of the nation.

Now that has changed. Biden says it is time - long past time, in fact - to take some concrete action and save American lives.

This is what he is imploring Congress to do:

Ban assault weapons and high-capacity magazines

If that's not achievable, raise from 18 to 21 the age at which an American can purchase AR-15-style semi-automatic guns

Strengthen background checks for those buying weapons

Allow people to sue gun manufacturers, just like smokers can take tobacco companies to court

Adopt new national "red flag" laws that allow police to confiscate guns if parents or teachers warn that a child or student might be a danger to themselves or to others.

In most countries, this would be straightforward, common-sense action after the horrendous shootings we have just witnessed.

In America, any such legislation remains a huge challenge.
Yes, there is the prospect of minor tweaks to gun laws, as centrist Senators from both parties engage in a quiet conversation.

But radical reform - stopping the sale of AR-15s, let alone banning hand-guns - is out of reach.

The Second Amendment is too totemic in the minds of Republicans; the idea of surrendering weapons to the authorities is seen by millions of gun-owning citizens as fundamentally un-American.

However, President Biden has finally entered the arena and made his plea. At times last night he was begging senators to do something and urging American voters to demand action.
We will see if a weakened and embattled president can make a difference at a time when the nation is deeply divided on almost every issue.

There are reasons to be sceptical. Congress is polarized and paralyzed, especially as we await elections in November.

But if the horror of Uvalde and Buffalo does not force Congress to act, then nothing ever will. And we will be left simply waiting for the next horror to unfold.

[Broomstick]

During the hearing, Republican Greg Steube brandished various pistols in an effort to argue that the bill's provision banning large-capacity magazines of more than 10 rounds amounted to stopping law-abiding citizens from purchasing guns of their choice.
When Representative Sheila Jackson Lee remarked that she hoped one of the guns Steube was holding was not loaded, Steube replied, “I’m in my house, I can do whatever I want with my guns”.
It was one of several pointed exchanges during the hearing.

It would not surprise me at some point if we have one member of Congress firing upon others in either the House or the Senate. Yes, it's getting that bad. Bunch of fucking lunatics.

More and more running away to hide in the woods on an island in a large lake looks like the most rational plan I could have for my retirement. And yes, I really am making solid plans to do just that.

[Elfdart]

A girl I dated in high school has been a school resource officer in Georgia for almost a decade. She told me that ever since Columbine, they've been told that they have to engage shooters on campus: no excuses or exceptions. Even though she only carries a pistol, she has the armored vest and training and is expected to risk her neck because every second counts. We had talked about this after the Parkland shootings when apparently, officers chickened out while kids were being killed. If anyone thinks the Uvalde cosplay cops are being vilified too harshly, tough shit. Police are given a ridiculous amount of leeway in how they conduct themselves, which is why they almost always get away with misconduct up to and including murder. So when that "thin blue line" turns out to be a big yellow streak, it adds insult to injury.

Defund the Uvalde police? I'd be game for decimation, but disbanding the force and starting anew is reasonable. Camden, NJ nuked their police department because of corruption and recruited an entirely new force -resulting in a huge drop in crime as well as better relations with the citizenry.