Balance of the force (Take a gizillion)

[Crazedwraith]

So it comes up a lot in internet discussion that the balance of the force caused by Anakin was the elimination of the Jedi. just counting Episodes 1-6 and you end up with two jedi and two Sith left. Hence a numerical balance. And this is a prophecy twist. The Jedi and Obi-Wan seem to think the prophecy is pretty explicit (It was said you would destroy the sith not join them!) about the destruction of the Sith. (The only hint this might not be so is Yoda says it might have been misread)

Now I'm also read that the idea that any use of darkside causes imbalance to the force and the prophecy was accurate it's just delayed to the end of RotJ when Vader does finally destroy the Sith. (Again only taking into account movies 1-6, the Eu and disney ruin this) Darkside use is imbalance and light side being in harmony with the force's will does not cause imbalance. Apparently this was George Lucas' original intention.

I read that on Darth & Droid's at least but last time I looked it up their source was gone. Does anyone have the quotes to hand?

Possible it's just there are two clauses to the prophecy. Destroy the Sith. Bring Balance to the Force. And they were fulfilled separately in Ep 6 and 3 respectively?

Anyone got any idea what was meant definitively?

[Mange]

No idea, but in George Lucas's unused treatments for the Sequel Trilogy, it would've been Leia who ultimately restored balance to the Force and if that had been explored more it's possible things would've been somewhat more clear.

[Gandalf]

I recall reading the similar thing, that the light is about balance, and the dark is inherently imbalance. Since the Sith were the major unbalancing factor that the Jedi knew, they assumed Anakin would bring balance back by eliminating said Sith.

A cool idea I read from (I think) Hav, way back when, was that the bringing of balance also meant clearing away the corruption of the Jedi Order. The rough idea being that while the Jedi meant well, their existence as a government agency affected them and how they interacted with the Force. So for true balance, Anakin had to burn it all down.

[Solauren]

I remember thinking that, along with the Jedi becoming so isolationist, and denying the elements of life that make it life (i.e love, feelings, family), that were imbalancing themselves and therefore the Force, and Anakin's was meant to undo all that.

If that's the case, it kind of explains Episode 7 - 9 as done by Disney.

Luke started to repeat the mistakes of the old order (re Gorgo), which left him weakened and he fell for the telepathic manipulation of Snooke/Palpatine. That's why he pulled his lightsaber on Ben Solo, and why Ben responded the way he did.

In essence, the Force went 'Oh hell, not again." and decided to empower Rey to deal with the problem.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

I remember thinking that, along with the Jedi becoming so isolationist, and denying the elements of life that make it life (i.e love, feelings, family), that were imbalancing themselves and therefore the Force, and Anakin's was meant to undo all that.

If that's the case, it kind of explains Episode 7 - 9 as done by Disney.

Luke started to repeat the mistakes of the old order (re Gorgo), which left him weakened and he fell for the telepathic manipulation of Snooke/Palpatine. That's why he pulled his lightsaber on Ben Solo, and why Ben responded the way he did.

In essence, the Force went 'Oh hell, not again." and decided to empower Rey to deal with the problem.

I broadly agree with this.

As I see it, the greatest failure of the Jedi was not that they were corrupt or malicious, but that they were rigid. They became convinced that attachments and emotionality of any kind were a threat, and that only by shutting them out completely could the Dark side be avoided. This led to them cloistering themselves, and raising their members from infancy, with no experiences other than the life of a Jedi.

The immediate problem was that when a Jedi fell to the Dark side, they did so spectacularly; as a lifetime of discipline and restraint was abandoned, and an entire system of thought and emotional management shattered. A real-life example would be Spain in the 1920s, when rioting workers did crazy stuff like breaking the corpses of nuns out of tombs and waltzing with them in the street. Once a lifetime of ultra-Catholic brainwashing had been broken, they couldn't just walk away from that world; they had to defile and destroy it. Catharsis can be ugly.

A deeper problem was that their spiritual development suffered. As I see it, the Dark side can be avoided, and the Light side mastered, only through self-knowledge and self-understanding. One must know, understand, and accept one's emotions and impulses in order to master them. The Jedi Code made this all but impossible, because it forbade the experiences that allowed such development.

The tragic irony is that the Jedi were trapped in a paradox of fear. They feared the Dark side for the harm it can do, and rejected fear in order to avoid it. But by rejecting fear so completely, they could not understand or truly overcome it. They ended up choosing a pale, safe imitation over true mastery.

[Tribble]

In addition to what others have said, there's a theory any deliberate use of the force is in a way causing an imbalance. The Force is supposedly generated by all living things, yet clearly only a very small minority are able to use it at will, and even then most of them only do so after intensive training. If using the Force the way the Jedi and Sith do was natural, one would think a lot more of the population would inherently be able to do so. If the Force is like a giant trampoline whose natural state is flat, what the Jedi/Sith did was basically stumble upon it and immediately start jumping. The constant bounces over time caused a big imbalance overall, and the more force users there were and the more powerful they became, the worse it got. The events that lead to the death of most force users (where Anakin played a big part) helped restore the balance of the force to a more natural, flat, less used state.

Or as Malcolm would say, just because they know the Force exists and that they could use it doesn't mean that they should use it.

[Darth Yan]

Actually the way Lucas interpreted it is as the dark side is inherently evil and corrupting, and balance is the light being in charge. That's not actually far fetched. The Jedi way seems to be that you SHOULD feel emotions, but handle them in a guided way. The Sith Way is "fuck emotional restraint, go nuts".

[Tribble]

Actually the way Lucas interpreted it is as the dark side is inherently evil and corrupting, and balance is the light being in charge. That's not actually far fetched. The Jedi way seems to be that you SHOULD feel emotions, but handle them in a guided way. The Sith Way is "fuck emotional restraint, go nuts".

Depends on who is in charge and doing the interpreting of the Jedi way, of course. By the time of the Prequels it seemed that the Jedi were expected to rigidly and inflexibly adhere to their Code whether or not it was actually helpful, or morally right. Qui Gon was chastised for not mindlessly following orders, and refused a spot on the Council because of it. The Jedi Council and Yoda in particular seemed opposed to feeling emotions in general, especially when it came to emotional attachments with other people.

We are talking about a group that:

permanently takes infants away from their families to raise and teach in total isolation explicitly because that way they will have no emotional attachments with other people.

apparently does not see the moral issues arising from teaching said infants and children how to be effective in policing and combat (are child police/soldiers legal in the Republic?)

does not view combating slavery as a priority, apparently because it is "not part of their mandate"

after reluctantly deciding to train an 8 year old solely due to his potential and a prophecy, did nothing to free his mother from slavery and is astonished that he gets upset over it.

has a leader whose response to "I'm worried about people I love suffering and dying is" is "let them die and don't mourn their loss, you have better things to do". Not just to Anakin, but to Luke as well.

Has no problems playing kingmaker and influencing the outcomes of political leadership contests

Has no problems assuming generalship over an unknown army created by a deceased Jedi with ties to the leader of the separatist faction (himself a former Jedi) using a known enemy bounty hunter as a template. All of which simply to rescue themselves.

Has no problems picking sides over what was inherently a political conflict, while utterly failing to see the corruption on their own side until it was too late

Etc Etc.

Deaths aside, IMO the whole institution was far from some Jedi ideal, corrupt to its core and had to go.

[Khaat]

We are talking about a group that:

permanently takes infants away from their families to raise and teach in total isolation explicitly because that way they will have no emotional attachments with other people.

... because they themselves went through an age where having more than one student per master had fostered jealousy and resulted fallen Jedi becoming Sith, at least in EU/Legends.
QUI-GON:" I will train him, then. I take Anakin as my Padawan learner."
OBI-WAN reacts with surprise. ANAKIN watches with interest.
YODA: "An apprentice, you have, Qui-Gon. Impossible, to take on a second."

And it isn't "no attachment to people", it's that lofty "unconditional love", so you don't have your decisions guided by fear of losing someone special, like family, or your Master, even. As a result, the Rule of Two among the Jedi, recruiting the super young, and a record of only a handful of Jedi ever leaving the Order. They weren't prohibited from leaving the Order; Dooku left and went back to assume his inherited role of Count (presumably).

It was because Dooku was Sith and working with the Separatists that Obi-Wan opposed him. Once Dooku realized he wasn't going to be able to take out Palpatine on his own, he even attempted to recruit Obi-Wan to help him. Sith thing, or "gone native" on a secret mission of his own choosing? Dunno.

It took years of war for the Council to consider Dooku was telling the truth, and set Anakin to watch and report back.

apparently does not see the moral issues arising from teaching said infants and children how to be effective in policing and combat (are child police/soldiers legal in the Republic?)

Jedi aren't trained to be police, they are trained in defense, because evangelizing cooperation can put them in a dangerous position. They weren't police. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan visited the Trade Fed blockade as ambassadors to the Supreme Chancellor. If they had "a job" already, they would have gone in that capacity. It wasn't until AOTC that Jedi were dropped in as leaders of the Clone Army by Palpatine. Jedi motives were always the same: advance cooperation. The engagements were different from that time on (being war). Want to? No. Have to? Maybe. The number of Jedi lost in the arena before the Clone Army arrived on Geonosis suggest they aren't very well trained for combat, almost as if it isn't their job.

Are Jedi even trained in using blasters? Or just the badge of office, the lightsaber?

does not view combating slavery as a priority, apparently because it is "not part of their mandate"

Or they actually have no power outside of folk-heroism to do anything about it, since they are neither soldier nor police, inside the Republic or beyond its borders.

SHMI: "The Republic doesn't exist out here... we must survive on our own."

Qui-Gon was stuck on his "big picture" once he identified Anakin as the Chosen One. His actions could be seen as a "path of least resistance" solution, or "least offensive" to the local powers-that-be. He made every effort except violence to get both Anakin and Shmi from Watto. Do the Jedi exert their political will on others? No.

Padme was still in danger of assassination, and "the Chosen One" blinded Qui-Gon's decision-making.

QUI-GON: "Don't center on your anxiety, Obi-Wan. Keep your concentration here and now where it belongs."
Qui-Gon was blind to the future, Yoda was lost to it; personal failings, not systematic.

after reluctantly deciding to train an 8 year old solely due to his potential and a prophecy, did nothing to free his mother from slavery and is astonished that he gets upset over it.

Qui-Gon wasn't going to endanger Shmi or Anakin, and was fixated on the "solution" of the prophecy. "Family ties" was outside of his own experience, since he had let go of his own family years before to embrace the duty and responsibilities of being a Jedi. Obi-Wan had spent the next (to AOTC) ten years training Anakin in the Jedi code.

Why not free all the slaves? Why not make the Republic work how they wanted? Because that isn't the Will of the Force.

Had mom been an issue before the dreams on Naboo? No, Anakin had been dreaming about Padme, until Naboo, when she was being tortured. He got the same test Luke did: someone you're attached to is in danger. But Luke didn't give in and massacre a village over it. Do you see why attachment is a manipulation Jedi don't want?

has a leader whose response to "I'm worried about people I love suffering and dying is" is "let them die and don't mourn their loss, you have better things to do". Not just to Anakin, but to Luke as well.

At least quote the whole thing -
YODA: "Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is."
ANAKIN: "What must I do, Master Yoda?"
YODA: "Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose."
Jedi aren't a wizards guild, they're a monastic order with proof that their philosophy is more than faith-based; it has tangible, demonstrable power. Hell, TPM even explained why it works. It isn't about "thoughts and prayers" like religion we in the West are familiar with. Yoda is reciting the philosophy of the Jedi: to be selfless, to remove ego from decisions, to surrender to the Will of the Force.

OBI-WAN, ANH: "Let go, Luke!"
and
YODA, ESB: "Decide you must how to serve them best. If you leave now, help them you could. But you would destroy all for which they have fought and suffered."
Which was about as direct as Yoda could get to saying "your friends are bait: if you go, they lose" while still respecting Luke's freedom to choose. Also possible it was part of his training: "how to lose with humility."

Has no problems playing kingmaker and influencing the outcomes of political leadership contests

Where did any Jedi influence votes in the galactic Senate? Where did they pick the leadership of the Rebellion?

Quite the opposite: they clearly didn't step in, anywhere! If Qui-Gon had testified to the Senate, it would have upset Palpatine's apple-cart. And if your position that they were the police and/or military were correct, they would have been obligated to report. They weren't: the Jedi Order did not exist to rule the Republic, but to serve it as their philosophy guided them. They were respected, they were regarded well, but they weren't police, they weren't an army.

Has no problems assuming generalship over an unknown army created by a deceased Jedi with ties to the leader of the separatist faction (himself a former Jedi) using a known enemy bounty hunter as a template. All of which simply to rescue themselves.

Did you watch AOTC? There was plenty "this is a bad thing" going on among the Jedi leadership. Yoda, specifically, and the council looked to him. So either a) Yoda saw that it was going to happen and nothing he could do would prevent it, and/or b) he did everything he could to minimize the damage. The Jedi took charge of the army because they were manipulated into it. The clone army was really good at taking orders; designed for it. But the Jedi went in first to rescue their own, and after heavy losses, then the clone army turned up and engaged the Separatist army.

Obi-Wan also didn't manage to get a full report to the Council in time to influence their decision re: the clone army; he was distracted by Dooku turning out as Tyrannus. There was a lot of rush stacked on to this, and decision-making suffered for it.

Has no problems picking sides over what was inherently a political conflict, while utterly failing to see the corruption on their own side until it was too late

TPM - Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan go to diffuse the Trade Federation friction at Naboo. Palpatine uncorks his decades-long plan the Jedi had been blinded to. The Jedi picked sides? They picked "peaceful resolution to this trade dispute" and got bush-whacked.

OBI-WAN : "Yes, Master...how do you think the trade viceroy will deal with the chancellor's demands?" (You know, the democratically-elected leader of the legal body to which the TF belongs?)
QUI-GON : "These Federation types are cowards. The negotiations will be short."
later,
QUI-GON: "I cannot fight a war for you, Your Highness, only protect you." Huh. Seems to be clearly "advance cooperation" rather than "picking sides".

AOTC - Here's some of those excellent indications of your "picking sides" position:
COUNT DOOKU: "I bring you good news, my Lord. The war has begun."
DARTH SIDIOUS: "Excellent." (smiling) "Everything is going as planned."

PALPATINE: "Master Yoda, do you think it will really come to war?"
YODA: (closes his eyes) "Worse than war, I fear... Much worse."
PALPATINE: "What?"
MACE WINDU: "What do you sense, Master?"
YODA: "Impossible to see ... The Dark Side clouds everything. But this I am sure of - (opens his eyes) Do their duty the Jedi will."
Seems resigned to the Bad Thing he feels is coming, but sticking to Jedi philosophy; obligation to others.

OBI-WAN: "(continuing) I must admit without the clones, it would not have been a victory."
YODA: "Victory? Victory, you say?"
OBI-WAN turns and looks at the sad little Jedi sitting in the Council Chamber. Apart from KI-ADI-MUNDI and PLO KOON, who is wounded, the Chamber is empty.
YODA: "(continuing) Not victory, a defeat, it was... Master Obi-Wan. Begun, the Clone War has!"

[Gandalf]

In addition to what others have said, there's a theory any deliberate use of the force is in a way causing an imbalance. The Force is supposedly generated by all living things, yet clearly only a very small minority are able to use it at will, and even then most of them only do so after intensive training.

That's a really cool idea.

Evidently the Force went "too many sorcerors!" and created Anakin to wipe our institutionalised Force use, because the institution became more than the deity it worshipped.

[Darth Yan]

Actually the way Lucas interpreted it is as the dark side is inherently evil and corrupting, and balance is the light being in charge. That's not actually far fetched. The Jedi way seems to be that you SHOULD feel emotions, but handle them in a guided way. The Sith Way is "fuck emotional restraint, go nuts".

Depends on who is in charge and doing the interpreting of the Jedi way, of course. By the time of the Prequels it seemed that the Jedi were expected to rigidly and inflexibly adhere to their Code whether or not it was actually helpful, or morally right. Qui Gon was chastised for not mindlessly following orders, and refused a spot on the Council because of it. The Jedi Council and Yoda in particular seemed opposed to feeling emotions in general, especially when it came to emotional attachments with other people.

We are talking about a group that:

permanently takes infants away from their families to raise and teach in total isolation explicitly because that way they will have no emotional attachments with other people.

apparently does not see the moral issues arising from teaching said infants and children how to be effective in policing and combat (are child police/soldiers legal in the Republic?)

does not view combating slavery as a priority, apparently because it is "not part of their mandate"

after reluctantly deciding to train an 8 year old solely due to his potential and a prophecy, did nothing to free his mother from slavery and is astonished that he gets upset over it.

has a leader whose response to "I'm worried about people I love suffering and dying is" is "let them die and don't mourn their loss, you have better things to do". Not just to Anakin, but to Luke as well.

Has no problems playing kingmaker and influencing the outcomes of political leadership contests

Has no problems assuming generalship over an unknown army created by a deceased Jedi with ties to the leader of the separatist faction (himself a former Jedi) using a known enemy bounty hunter as a template. All of which simply to rescue themselves.

Has no problems picking sides over what was inherently a political conflict, while utterly failing to see the corruption on their own side until it was too late

Etc Etc.

Deaths aside, IMO the whole institution was far from some Jedi ideal, corrupt to its core and had to go.

The Jedi's problem is that they got too attached to their position and power, and thus focused on maintaining it at the cost of what was right. Ironically they fell into the same trap as Anakin in that they were selfishly attached to something and didn't want to loose it.

This article sums it up.

http://eleven-thirtyeight.com/2017/04/s ... ttachment/

While Yoda phrased things poorly he was saying "death is a part of life; if something bad happens you need to be able to accept it." Again, could have been phrased better but not a bad message

[Crazedwraith]

Just seen a conversation about this on another forum that was interesting. One is that Anakin couched his questions to Yoda in the broadest term and got a generic answer back, If he'd actually been specific, Yoda might have given actual useful advice or help protect Padme. He's accepting of people dying in a zen sense but he still saves people after all.

The other was I remembered that the spark that sets off Anakin's fall is the visions he had of Padme dying, self-fulfilling visions send presumably by the force itself. That really lends some credence for me to the idea that his fall and the end and restart of the stagnant Jedi Order really was part of the plan, because the force itself triggered his fall.