Eckharts Ladder Star Wars lore

[Spice Runner]

Has anyone watched Eckharts Ladder Star Wars lore

Eckharts Ladder videos

I find a lot of interesting information and his own analysis about Star Wars legends and Disney canon lore from his videos

[Galvatron]

I've seen a lot of his videos. I don't agree with every opinion he has (most recently, his gushing over the Kenobi series), but he's generally on point.

[Spice Runner]

I've seen a lot of his videos. I don't agree with every opinion he has (most recently, his gushing over the Kenobi series), but he's generally on point.

Yeah he is rather opinionated strongly about the sequels and the new series.

I like his lore about things like the core worlds, hyperspace, the unknown regions, faction ms with the best army/navy, chronology of the force users among others

[Rogue 9]

Pass. He's a minimalist moron.

[Galvatron]

Yeah, he really seems to cling to the Legends numbers of 25,000 ISDs.

[Darth Yan]

Pass. He's a minimalist moron.

That seems to be common. It's also silly. Legend of Galactic Heroes is a smaller scale yet even at it's weakest the factions are able to pull out just as many ships.

[Adam Reynolds]

The problem is that the scale in the OT was limited by the number of models they had, and so they just didn't have the epic scale they otherwise might have wanted. The trouble is that the brain bug that the scale of Star Wars was small had taken hold before anything could be done about this, and so the small numbers became what people expected. Clone Wars had exactly the same problem that they were limited due to their fairly small budgets most of the time(and at least some of the minimalism crept through as well).

[Darth Yan]

There's another problem. The WEG games misread the novelization about how the executor was a size and never bothered to correct it; a lot of fans and writers grew up with and or were heavily involved with them. Pablo Hidalgo is probably the biggest case; when you really get down to it his hatred of the technical minded fans is more "HOW DARE THEY CRITICIZE THE STUFF ME AND MY FRIENDS WORKED ON" and "IF APPLYING STANDARDS MEANS THE WORKS I CHERISH GETS CRITICIZED THAN ALL STANDARDS ARE BAD NYEH!" (well that and they have a lack of imagination). And now those idiots are running the asylum.

It also doesn't help that people often lack imagination and dismiss things they can't comprehend. If they can't comprehend it they assume it can't be true. I had a discussion about physics with my father and a lot of what he described was....genuinely counterintuitive to the point it seemed really ridiculous even though I knew it wasn't.

[Spice Runner]

Yeah I never understood that hatred. There is so much cool technical stuff in Star Wars to analyze and enjoy not the least being all the awesome ships.

Hah it never registered to me that Ecks was a minimalist. I don't like minimalism at all.

[Darth Yan]

Some of the tech fans could be a bit pedantic and or arrogant, but at the same time again a lot of the hostility was that THEY had grown up with certain numbers, and they didn't want to see them cast aside. It's like how lawyers and judges don't want to see their case decisions overruled even if the original decision was blatantly wrong.

Pablo Hidalgo is like that, and he's very clearly been trying to reinsert the old WEG numbers, showing that he never really saw it as just a movie but was basically trying to preserve HIS stuff and those of his friends.

[Spice Runner]

Some of the tech fans could be a bit pedantic and or arrogant, but at the same time again a lot of the hostility was that THEY had grown up with certain numbers, and they didn't want to see them cast aside. It's like how lawyers and judges don't want to see their case decisions overruled even if the original decision was blatantly wrong.

Pablo Hidalgo is like that, and he's very clearly been trying to reinsert the old WEG numbers, showing that he never really saw it as just a movie but was basically trying to preserve HIS stuff and those of his friends.

Here is a good example of the size revisions of the super star destroyer executor. l remember WEG and all the old online star wars forum board discussions and arguments over size and weapons. Such fun times

Star Wars Technical Commentary

I never considered anyone of the hardcore tech fans arrogant or pedantic. I loved hearing all their views. But with such a large fan base I guess it happens

[Rogue 9]

Yeah I never understood that hatred. There is so much cool technical stuff in Star Wars to analyze and enjoy not the least being all the awesome ships.

Hah it never registered to me that Ecks was a minimalist. I don't like minimalism at all.

There's one of his videos I saw, can't be fucked to find which one, in which he specifically went after SDN and Saxton as "unrealistic," with no elaboration.

[Mange]

I much prefer EC Henry's channel. While not perfect, I do sometimes get really annoyed by Eckhart's Ladder which I can't say I've been by EC which tends to be of a higher quality and which often deals with some more unusual subjects.

Yeah I never understood that hatred. There is so much cool technical stuff in Star Wars to analyze and enjoy not the least being all the awesome ships.

Hah it never registered to me that Ecks was a minimalist. I don't like minimalism at all.

There's one of his videos I saw, can't be fucked to find which one, in which he specifically went after SDN and Saxton as "unrealistic," with no elaboration.

While I haven't seen that video myself, I have noticed that he brings up things that Saxton have mentioned or refuted. I thought he perhaps had no knowledge of Saxton until he recently brought him up. I haven't watched many of his videos lately as it's been many "Did you know...!" to which the answer is always "Yes" (but people with a passing knowledge of Star Wars perhaps wouldn't) so perhaps that's why I've missed it.

[Darth Yan]

I think a large part of it is that they grew up on the WEG numbers and they don't like change. Judges are similar in that they cling to precedent even if science proves that precedent is wrong.

[Esquire]

Judges are similar in that they cling to precedent even if science proves that precedent is wrong.

Which particular precedent and science did you have in mind?

[Darth Yan]

Bite Mark Analysis for one, but a surprisingly large number of forensics disciplines have been proven to be utterly worthless.

Judges still accept rulings based on those discredited disciplines. They also continue to use case rulings even when the rulings were invalidated (Youngblood is a notorious case where the guy was later proven innocent via DNA testing, but the Supreme Court STILL holds it a legitimate ruling).

Pablo Hidalgo and the other WEG fanboys are like that; they grew up or were heavily involved with the older stuff and don't like seeing their work criticized, but because they don't want to look petty (or see themselves as it) they bullshit it under "oh it's just a movie" and "they're taking this to seriously".

It also displays a lack of imagination. If they can build something like the death star having turbolasers that are 4 times as powerful as the hiroshima bomb (the point blank defenses) is chump change by comparison.

[Rogue 9]

I much prefer EC Henry's channel. While not perfect, I do sometimes get really annoyed by Eckhart's Ladder which I can't say I've been by EC which tends to be of a higher quality and which often deals with some more unusual subjects.

Yeah I never understood that hatred. There is so much cool technical stuff in Star Wars to analyze and enjoy not the least being all the awesome ships.

Hah it never registered to me that Ecks was a minimalist. I don't like minimalism at all.

There's one of his videos I saw, can't be fucked to find which one, in which he specifically went after SDN and Saxton as "unrealistic," with no elaboration.

While I haven't seen that video myself, I have noticed that he brings up things that Saxton have mentioned or refuted. I thought he perhaps had no knowledge of Saxton until he recently brought him up. I haven't watched many of his videos lately as it's been many "Did you know...!" to which the answer is always "Yes" (but people with a passing knowledge of Star Wars perhaps wouldn't) so perhaps that's why I've missed it.

It was one of the ones where he tries his hand at versus scenarios. He doesn't usually go out of the way to go after Wong or Saxton unless addressing whether or not the Empire could (for instance since Halo is the other focus of his channel) defeat the Covenant.

[Esquire]

Bite Mark Analysis for one, but a surprisingly large number of forensics disciplines have been proven to be utterly worthless.

Judges still accept rulings based on those discredited disciplines. They also continue to use case rulings even when the rulings were invalidated (Youngblood is a notorious case where the guy was later proven innocent via DNA testing, but the Supreme Court STILL holds it a legitimate ruling).

Forensics is definitely a mess, yeah.

[Darth Yan]

The WEG fanboys have the same mentality. Same with many higher ups who are trying to subtly re insert the old WEG numbers. It's shit THEY grew up with or dreamed up and they don't like being called out on the fact that they were incompetent or that the work THEY cherish was poorly researched.

[Mange]

I much prefer EC Henry's channel. While not perfect, I do sometimes get really annoyed by Eckhart's Ladder which I can't say I've been by EC which tends to be of a higher quality and which often deals with some more unusual subjects.

There's one of his videos I saw, can't be fucked to find which one, in which he specifically went after SDN and Saxton as "unrealistic," with no elaboration.

While I haven't seen that video myself, I have noticed that he brings up things that Saxton have mentioned or refuted. I thought he perhaps had no knowledge of Saxton until he recently brought him up. I haven't watched many of his videos lately as it's been many "Did you know...!" to which the answer is always "Yes" (but people with a passing knowledge of Star Wars perhaps wouldn't) so perhaps that's why I've missed it.

It was one of the ones where he tries his hand at versus scenarios. He doesn't usually go out of the way to go after Wong or Saxton unless addressing whether or not the Empire could (for instance since Halo is the other focus of his channel) defeat the Covenant.

Ok, I'll see if it pops up.

His latest video is also somewhat annoying; he tries to prove Hidalgo's point that the Bothans didn't steal the plans for the second Death Star. While it was part of the Emperor's plan that the Alliance would obtain the plans, Eckhart tries to prove his point by only playing part of Mon Mothma's lines regarding the Bothans, namely that "Many bothans died to bring us this information." He did not play the line: "The data brought to us by the Bothan spies pinpoints the exact location of the Emperor's new battle station." Hidalgo, in an article, plays it sly by claiming that Mon Mothma never mentioned "plans" though that's exactly what she and Ackbar shows (at least the part how it can be destroyed) and the dialogue infers that it was the Bothans who were responsible.

[KraytKing]

The WEG fanboys have the same mentality. Same with many higher ups who are trying to subtly re insert the old WEG numbers. It's shit THEY grew up with or dreamed up and they don't like being called out on the fact that they were incompetent or that the work THEY cherish was poorly researched.

Bro. Shut the fuck up about it, we get it. You have a problem with WEG fanboys and think they are idiots, you've only said it six times in the fucking thread and ten more in half a dozen other threads.

I used to really like EckhartsLadder, but these days my taste for Star Wars is pretty limited. I still like his videos for sorting through the mountains of shit to find the occasional good idea, though.

Did anyone watch his video "US Military vs Star Destroyer?" He had the US win, though I think he at least put an altitude limit of like ten miles on the ISD. Even if you don't accept the Saxton numbers, that's a tough sell.

Regarding minimalism. There is a limit to what the human mind can comprehend and appreciate in cinema, and since Star Wars is cinema first, I think that's a significant factor. Obviously, if you do the math, you find that any number of Star Destroyers ever listed pales in comparison to the volume of a single Death Star. But for the sake of a pretty picture and a compelling story, you kind of have to accept that the math won't make perfect sense. A space battle over Endor involving millions of ships will have a REALLY hard time making the audience care. Less is quite often more, when trying to manipulate an audience.

There is also the consideration that Star Wars is primarily about characters. In real life, the ability of individual actors to affect world events is pretty limited. In a realistic setting where humanity spans the galaxy, it is WAY more limited; there's simply too much inertia of society for an individual to substantially affect. But a movie can't be that way, so the world has to be limited artifically. Luke and company can blow up a Star Destroyer, but they can't blow up ten thousand--so you must engineer a world where blowing up a single Star Destroyer is strategically significant.

All of this, of course, doesn't necessarily excuse or explain other Star Wars minimalists. I disagree with Hidalgo, at least as he is presented in this thread: the value of the old books was in their portrayal of the FEEL of the setting, not the hard numbers. The latter are flexible, and should be changed to match the former. And of course, there are always those who simply do math poorly.

[Rogue 9]

His latest video is also somewhat annoying; he tries to prove Hidalgo's point that the Bothans didn't steal the plans for the second Death Star. While it was part of the Emperor's plan that the Alliance would obtain the plans, Eckhart tries to prove his point by only playing part of Mon Mothma's lines regarding the Bothans, namely that "Many bothans died to bring us this information." He did not play the line: "The data brought to us by the Bothan spies pinpoints the exact location of the Emperor's new battle station." Hidalgo, in an article, plays it sly by claiming that Mon Mothma never mentioned "plans" though that's exactly what she and Ackbar shows (at least the part how it can be destroyed) and the dialogue infers that it was the Bothans who were responsible.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzNVHXNhuIo [youtube]

That's just him doing clickbait. "EVERYONE gets this wrong" with an arrow pointing at the Death Star plans is designed to make you click to see what everyone is getting wrong.

[Darth Yan]

The WEG fanboys have the same mentality. Same with many higher ups who are trying to subtly re insert the old WEG numbers. It's shit THEY grew up with or dreamed up and they don't like being called out on the fact that they were incompetent or that the work THEY cherish was poorly researched.

Bro. Shut the fuck up about it, we get it. You have a problem with WEG fanboys and think they are idiots, you've only said it six times in the fucking thread and ten more in half a dozen other threads.

I used to really like EckhartsLadder, but these days my taste for Star Wars is pretty limited. I still like his videos for sorting through the mountains of shit to find the occasional good idea, though.

Did anyone watch his video "US Military vs Star Destroyer?" He had the US win, though I think he at least put an altitude limit of like ten miles on the ISD. Even if you don't accept the Saxton numbers, that's a tough sell.

Regarding minimalism. There is a limit to what the human mind can comprehend and appreciate in cinema, and since Star Wars is cinema first, I think that's a significant factor. Obviously, if you do the math, you find that any number of Star Destroyers ever listed pales in comparison to the volume of a single Death Star. But for the sake of a pretty picture and a compelling story, you kind of have to accept that the math won't make perfect sense. A space battle over Endor involving millions of ships will have a REALLY hard time making the audience care. Less is quite often more, when trying to manipulate an audience.

There is also the consideration that Star Wars is primarily about characters. In real life, the ability of individual actors to affect world events is pretty limited. In a realistic setting where humanity spans the galaxy, it is WAY more limited; there's simply too much inertia of society for an individual to substantially affect. But a movie can't be that way, so the world has to be limited artifically. Luke and company can blow up a Star Destroyer, but they can't blow up ten thousand--so you must engineer a world where blowing up a single Star Destroyer is strategically significant.

All of this, of course, doesn't necessarily excuse or explain other Star Wars minimalists. I disagree with Hidalgo, at least as he is presented in this thread: the value of the old books was in their portrayal of the FEEL of the setting, not the hard numbers. The latter are flexible, and should be changed to match the former. And of course, there are always those who simply do math poorly.

Oh I agree minimalism of some kind is inevitable. The problem is that a lot of the time people are really just instinctively defending stuff THEY like while going "oh you're too serious." It's the whole "blind adherence to precedence" thing, combined with the fact that they're trying to hide that they're every bit as fixated on THEIR put numbers as the people they denigrate while trying to paint themselves as reasonable.

The executor numbers came about because someone misread the novelization and they just never bothered to correct. That's just lazy, and the kind of thing that could easily have been corrected in 1987. And yet Pablo acted like only some nerds would care or that it would be too much work to notice.

In short, nothing is going to be perfectly consistent or realistic. But there should at least be somewhat of an effort put in, and a willingness to broaden your horizons. The WEG fans have neither and they try to dress it up as "oh we're so much more reasonable than you."

The hypocrisy is galling.

[RogueIce]

All of this, of course, doesn't necessarily excuse or explain other Star Wars minimalists. I disagree with Hidalgo, at least as he is presented in this thread: the value of the old books was in their portrayal of the FEEL of the setting, not the hard numbers. The latter are flexible, and should be changed to match the former. And of course, there are always those who simply do math poorly.

Even WEG knew this. IIRC it was Shep who brought up some passage from their writer's guide that basically said something along the same lines as this.

Even in their sourcebooks, they hedged their bets:

While the information reveals much about the tactics and inner workings of our enemy, I must caution you about reading too much into this report at this time. None of the information contained herein has been confirmed or documented outside of the data presented here. Unlikely though it is, this could be an elaborate ruse to pass along false information to the Alliance. I urge you and the rest of Alliance High Command to view this report in the proper perspective. Until collaborated, this report should be considered high level rumor at best. At worst, the Alliance is being fed half-truths and lies for some unknown purpose, although I do not believe this to be the case.

...

If the actual figures and divisions of forces are wrong, the spirit behind them rings true.

Emphasis mine.

I think a lot of them forget that these were written from an "in-universe, in-character" perspective, not an omniscient 3rd-person narrator. The sourcebooks were to give you the feel of the universe with whatever numbers they presented to give you some idea of the scale of how the galaxy operates - but they weren't the hard and fast truth. And even if they were accurate, they were also a snapshot at a particular moment in time. Taking the 25,000 ISD number that gets bandied about, which I think originated here? That only meant there were 25,000 ISDs at the point of just after Yavin. It doesn't mean this was the Empire's desired end-strength of ISDs, nor that they stopped building them after the timeframe of this sourcebook.

So properly, it should be the Empire had at least 25,000 ISDs in service at the height of its power. With the true number being left to the imagination of the viewer/reader. Which is the best way to handle "the numbers" IMO. Even here, in the Sector Group OOB there's a lot of deliberate ambiguity, which is for the best.

And again, as you mention with the character-driven story, the WEG sourcebooks were of course written around the perspective of a small group of friends/adventurers/rag-tag group of misfits going on various quests and expeditions and general hijinks. So I think a lot of information is built around that. It's enough to know that an Imperial Army Corps is "a whole lot of soldiers" but the player parties won't ever be facing one, so there's much more focus on the squad and platoon level of organization. And so on.

[KraytKing]

I'm glad you said all that. God damn, I love those books so much. They understood the important part, even if they totally whiffed on some of the numbers.